Best baseball pitcher in history...

[SaveElmer]

Poll question: Best baseball pitcher in history...

I'm goin with Clemens+

[wildhorses]

1. Phil Neikro

cos I'm sentimental like that...and besides I have a baseball autographed by him:P

[NJ Democrats]

2. Tough one

I'm going to say Cy Young. The pitching award is named after him after all. Clemens is way up there though.

[CatholicEdHead]

3. Jack Morris

/91 Twins Game 7

[SaveElmer]

5. Watched that game today...

MLB.com has video and radio of old games from the 1930's on...nice to relive that moment now and again. Definitely the best 1-game performance in world series history by a pitcher!

[Blue_Tires]

26. Don Larsen says hi

but neither Larsen nor Morris are seriously in the discussion just because they shone in the WS

[SaveElmer]

44. Well that was my point actually...

I think Morris is HOF worthy, but not in the discussion for best of all time...

Same should be said of Bert Blyleven

[Derailer]

4. Not for longevity obviously

but Pedro Martinez

[Blue-Jay]

6. Nolan Ryan.

I realize that polls are limited to a specific number of choices, but WTF?

[flvegan]

14. Big fat second, here.

Can't deny the man.

[sir_captain]

16. Overrated big time

awesome, awesome talent. But he gave up too many hits, and walked *way* too many people. He's probably not even in my top 10. Unbelievably fun to watch, though.

[Blue-Jay]

18. You gotta be fucking kidding me.

How can you say with a straight face that Ryan is overrated? Aside from Vida Blue and Satchel Page, who had more "lasting power" than Ryan? (and who had more K's?)

[sir_captain]

20. I can say it with an extremely straight face

K's are great. He's obviously the greatest strikeout pitcher ever.

Longevity is virtually meaningless. Julio Franco of the Mets is almost 50 years old but that doesn't put him in the hall of fame.

Look, let's just look at the numbers. For his career, Ryan averaged almost 5 walks/9 innings. That's awful. If not for his strikeout ability, he'd have totally washed out. A career WHIP of 1.247 is not that impressive. And by most importantly, Ryan is not even in the top *100* all-time in ERA+ (If you don't know what that is, it's ERA, adjusted for ballpark factors and compared against the league average.) The career leaders in ERA+ are Mariano Rivera, Pedro Martinez, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson and Roger Clemens, in that order. It's an excellent statistic. Where league average equates to 100, Ryan has a career mark of 112, only slightly above average. By comparison, Mariano Rivera has a 197 (by far the best ever) and Martinez clocks in at 166.

I don't mean any disrespect to Ryan--he was a great pitcher. But if you take a dispassionate look at the numbers, it's ridiculous to assert that he's the very best ever.

[Oeditpus Rex]

22. Besides

Strikeouts are a small, overrated part of pitching. Fans love 'em in the same way they love home runs and stolen bases — they're exciting. But a smart pitcher, even if he's got ungodly stuff, knows when to go for a 'K' and when to let his fielders do their jobs — because a strikeout takes a minimum of three pitches, whereas other outs need only one. That's efficiency, and efficiency is part of winning baseball.

[sir_captain]

23. True, to a degree

K/9 is a ratio that has a very high correlation with success. But I definitely agree with you that a pitcher who attacks the zone rather than nibbling around the corners is going to be a lot more efficient and successful.

[AngryAmish]

24. ERA+ - How do Whitey Ford and Bob Gibson rate?

[sir_captain]

25. No prob

Whitey finished his career at 132 (26th all time), and Gibson at 127 (41st) (gibson was an awesome pitcher, but played mostly in the era when pitchers dominated the most)

[maveric]

32. The hits and walk numbers are partially due to all the years he pitched.

Accumulativenthrough 25 years on the mound. Many of the great walked many batters and gave up many HR's. Bob Gibson for one. Randy Johnson is up there in walks.
Ryan also played on many bad teams with poor defense and no run support. In 1986 he went 8-16 but had the best ERA in the majors. Go figure!
Ryan along with Gibson is one of the most intimidating pitchers of all time. Think of what his numbers would be if he played for good teams.

[sir_captain]

33. Sorry

but you're wrong. Ryan gave up almost 5 walks per nine innings. That is very bad. Through 2005, Randy Johnson has walked 2.8/9 innings. That's 2 fewer base runners *every* game. Johnson's WHIP and ERA+ are also vastly superior to Ryan's. Johnson also actually has a higher K/9 ratio than Ryan, believe it or not (though it's very close.) Bob Gibson's BB/9 is 2.9, also much, much better than Ryan's. And all 3 guys have exactly the same HR/9 ratio--.7.

Look, I'm not trying to kill Ryan. He had some awesome years and was an awesome pitcher. But if we're talking about the very best, we have to look at the numbers and do it rationally. And by any reasonable statistical measure, Ryan was not as good as his reputation. On any given day, he could be the most dominating pitcher ever--but over the course of a season, he was going to have a lot of bad games too.

[maveric]

36. I dont think that Ryan was "The Best", but not overrated.

5700 strikouts and 320 wins are impressive numbers that 99% of all who ever pitch in the majors would die for. He worked hard to keep himself in shape too, being arguably the stronget man in the game, even into his 40's.
I put him at # 10 on my alltime list.

[sir_captain]

43. #10 is probably fair

My top 10ish, in no particular order are:

Roger Clemens
Lefty Grove
Walter Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Randy Johnson
Warren Spahn
Whitey Ford
Pedro Martinez
Greg Maddux
Christy Mathewson
Tom Seaver
Bob Gibson
Dizzy Dean
Babe Ruth(!)

And then I'd have Ryan somewhere after that. Which out of the thousands of all-time pitchers, is still pretty great!

[scoey1953]

7. Carl Hubbell

Elected to Hall of Fame by Baseball Writers in 1947, Player
140 votes on 161 ballots 86.96%
Hall of Fame plaque for Carl Hubbell

Born: June 22, 1903, in Carthage, Missouri
Died: November 21, 1988, in Scottsdale, Arizona

ML Debut: 7/26/1928
Primary Position: Pitcher
Bats: R Throws: L Primary Uniform #: 11

Played For: New York Giants (1928-1943)
Primary Team: New York Giants

Post-Season: 1933 World Series, 1936 World Series, 1937 World Series
Awards: Named National League Most Valuable Player in 1933 and 1936; All-Star (9): 1933-1938, 1940-1942

The Giants' mainstay of the 1930s, Carl Hubbell led the club to three pennants in a five-year span, during which he averaged 23 victories a season and was twice named MVP. Baffling hitters with a devastating screwball, "The Meal Ticket" compiled a streak of 46 1/3 scoreless innings in 1933 and won 16 straight games in 1936 (and a record 24 over two seasons). The nine-time All-Star remains famed for his performance in the 1934 All-Star Game when he fanned Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Al Simmons and Joe Cronin - in succession.

Quote
"He could throw strikes at midnight. I never saw another pitcher who could so fascinate the opposition the way Hubbell did."
— Billy Herman

Did You Know... that following Carl Hubbell's career on the diamond, he held the position of farm director for the New York Giants for over 30 years?

[brentspeak]

38. And let's not forget the original screwballer -- Christy Mathewson

He was also one of the first five ballplayers elected to the HOF (along with Cobb, Ruth, Honus Wagner, and Walter Johnson).

But just like Carl Hubbell, and later, Fernando Venezuela, his arm got destroyed from throwing too many screwballs.

[Maestro]

8. Walter Johnson

He could not only pitch but hit as well.

[brentspeak]

40. Plus, he racked up over 400 wins pitching for a weak team

The Washington Nationals/Senators. In fact, he had a 38-26 record in games decided by a 1-0 score; imagine all the extra victories he'd have if only the Nationals could score more runs.

[XNASA]

9. Voted Gibson but I think Koufax is a close second.

Gibson's stuff was absolutely electric. He could do anything with a baseball.

Koufax had unbelievable guts on the mound. He was almost better when he didn't have his stuff. It just made him try that much harder.

[texasleo]

10. Sandy Koufax

[KitchenWitch]

11. For me it is a tie between Sandy Koufax and Satchel Paige.

[fishwax]

12. They were all great in their own way

Such a hard call. I've got to admit Clemens is up there. And Maddux, though he can't match Clemens as a power pitcher, is close behind in wins and has a lower ERA. Obviously all the selections are great, but I guess my vote goes to Cy Young ...

[Oeditpus Rex]

13. Again, I ain't voting

Same reason: too many variables.

I just don't think you can say "best" in sports — or music, or the other arts, or a lotta things.

[wildhorses]

17. that's why I vote for my favorite

screw 'em I say...



best is....at best subjective

best is best to me and what is best to me does not have to be best to you...

[sir_captain]

15. Lefty Grove needs to be on this list

Maddux and Paige don't really belong. Whitey Ford should probably be up there too. And Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez.

That said, I'll probably go with Clemens, followed by Grove.

[gkdmaths]

19. Other.

My grandpa "Fastballer" Frankie Dasso.

But maybe I'm biased. :shrug:

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

21. honestly I'm only going with who I've seen

so Maddux or Clemens
I'll go with Maddux, because I'm more of a cubs fan.

[blockhead]

27. Cy Young

511 wins, 90+ more than anyone else. 815 games started, 749 complete games.

[TK421]

28. Bull Durham

[sir_captain]

35. huh?

[TK421]

37. It was a joke...maybe a bad one. Sorry

[mac56]

29. Gibby gets my vote.

An amazing athlete.

[Va Lefty]

30. Jim Palmer

Hard to say how many games he lost 1-0, or 2-1. I'm a Oriole fan, believe me, it was alot of them.

[brentspeak]

41. The Baltimore Oriole starting pitching staff of 1970-71:

Jim Palmer: 20-10 and 20-9

Mike Cueller: 24-8 and 20-9

David McNally: 24-9 and 21-5

Plus Pat Dobson was 20-8 in 1971.

That's quite a starting rotation.

[maveric]

31. Amongst "Modern era" pitchers I have to go with Bob Gibson.

With Rogers Clemens a close 2nd.

[sir_captain]

34. Gibson is a really interesting case

cause on the one hand, he was awesome. On the other hand, he pitched in an era where pitchers dominated so much that they had to change the rules (lowering the mound, etc) and consequently, when you compare his numbers to his contemporaries, he doesn't look quite as good (ie, there were tons of pitchers with ERAs < 3.00 in 1968. That said, it wasn't his fault, and I think a lot of people would pick him as the guy they'd most want pitching game 7 of a series.

[brentspeak]

39. Ahem! Have all you guys forgotten about....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christy_Mathewson

????

He was merely one of the first five players elected to Cooperstown.

[maveric]

42. Or Grover Alexander.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Alexander

[Ekirh]

45. Hmmm

Gotta go with Walter Johnson. I wished I could've watched him pitch.


And I agree with those who say Ryan was over-rated. . . but he was still a good pitcher.

[mikeargo]

46. Gotta go with Clemens

Sure wish the Red Sox had hung onto him.

[smitty]

47. Whitey Ford and Tom Seaver both deserve honorable mentions.

Ford's lifetime record was 236-106 and Seaver's was 311-205. They're not number one but I'd certainly put them in the top 10 or 20.
Don't forget Lefty Grove whose lifetime record was 300-141,including consecutive seasons of: 1929 20-6, 1930 28-5 and 1931 31-3; an unbelievable 79-11 for three years.