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Working in Bars and Clubs in New York City in the 90s and Smoking.

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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 09:53 PM
Original message
Working in Bars and Clubs in New York City in the 90s and Smoking.
Edited on Wed Nov-30-05 09:55 PM by rbnyc
I want to share some of my experiences working in bars and clubs in New York City as a bartender, waitress, manager, and as a performer before the ban on smoking. And I want to share some of my experiences as an ex-smoker. It's true, I've been caught up in a really puerile discussion on smoking in the workplace over in GD. But my aim is not to drag the argument over here. I just want to talk personally about my own experience, and I don't think that thread is the place to do it.

I started smoking cigarettes in college. When I first started, I actually promised myself I'd quit by the time I was 30 because I knew how stupid it was, and I knew it couldn't go on forever. But I liked it. It helped me stay awake. It helped me write papers. It gave me an excuse to just sit and stare out the window for a minute, or sit out on the porch and do nothing. It went well with drinking; it went well with smoking pot; it went well with acid. It felt good. I loved it.

And I hated it. It smelled. It made me wake up tired. It was expensive. It was impossible to keep away all the moochers, even when I switched to Lucky Strike Unfiltered. It made it hard for me to run, to play softball, to walk up and down stairs. It made me feel like a chump.

I tried to quit many times. I quit for long stretches. Then something would happen and I'd be back to 2 packs a day in a snap.

I worked my way through college waiting tables. Then I traveled around the country and supported myself by working in bars and restaurants, as a waitress, a bartender, a hostess, a manager, and also as a musician.

When I moved to New York City, my service industry experience was way more valuable than my degree, and I continued to work, primarily as a bartender, and also as a performer in New York bars and clubs.

Even with my experience, the job market was tight. It was hard to find a job, and even harder to find a good job, in a good place with a steady clientele of decent tippers. It's a hard way to make a living.

Of course, most bartenders work without any benefits. No health insurance, no life insurance, no 401K. And your paycheck is really just a mechanism for taxing you on your tips. But if you can find a good spot, you can make $200-$300 a night, sometimes more. And once you get a gig like that, you don't want to let it go.

I continued to struggle with smoking. It was very hard to quit, being surrounded by smokers and cigarettes all the time. It wasn't just because of the temptation, but because each time I would try to quit, I'd become more sensitive to the second-hand smoke, and it would make me sicker and sicker. I would start smoking again to desensitize myself, so the environment wouldn't make me feel ill.

Then after a while, I'd try to quit again. I'd make it a few days, a few weeks, a few months. But still, each time, working in the smokey environment became harder and harder.

Some of clubs where I performed as a musician did not allow smoking in the performance space, but many of the bars where I played had the stage right in the same area as the bar. It became more and more difficult, and more and more painful--choking, coughing, literally vomiting--to perform in theses smokey bars, But I needed work. I needed exposure. I couldn't turn down a gig.

I would come home, after a day and night of struggling not to smoke, but still my hair would smell like smoke, my clothes, my skin, my sweat. At one point, I hadn't smoked in my apartment for 3 months, still the whole place wreaked of cigarette stench.

There were some managerial changes at the bar where I'd worked for many years, so I took a job at another bar--and I was damed lucky to find this job. It was at The Knitting Factory--one of the places I'd played as a musician. Some New Yorkers may know it. It has 4 bars. 2 on the main floor, one in the basement, and one in the sub-basement.

I worked in the one in the sub-basement. It was a small room with zero ventilation, and would be packed night after night with everyone smoking.

It made me so sick, and so run down. My friends wondered if I had Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or something. I was still struggling not to smoke, myself. Yet I was getting sicker and sicker, and coming home night after night with the stink all over me--all over everything. It was an absolute fucking nightmare.

But I couldn't find a job anywhere else, and I couldn't go back to my other bar. I'd dedicated over 10 years to the service industry. I had nothing else on my resume. I had to pay rent. I had to pay rent in New York City. I was screwed.

This was one of the darkest, worst times in my life. And it was because of smoking and being forced by my economic situation to work in an environment that was constantly packed with smokers.

Eventually, I took a job as a shipping clerk in a wholesale warehouse in fucking Long Island City for $9/hour just to get out of that place.

And then I was lucky enough to find an opening in a community center, and began a new career as a non-profit development professional.

But it wasn't as easy as just making a choice. It wasn't like I could just walk out any time. It wasn't as if I could just quit if I didn't like it. I felt forced. I was economically forced to endure unsafe, unhealthy working conditions for years. It was painful. It was disgusting. And it blackened my life.

Anyway, I am now the Director of Development for a breast cancer organization, and I quit smoking over 7 years ago. It's easy to surmise that I support bans on smoking in public, and I do sincerely see it as a workers health and safety issue, and I'm not just blowing smoke up anybody's ass.

Thanks so much for the space to share.

EDIT: I couldn't get through it without a typo.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for sharing that!
I saw the thread over in GD...tough room!
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. LOL
No doubt. I decided to come over here where things tend to be more decent and constructive, or at least where humor ultimatley prevails.

;-)

:loveya:

But again, I just want to share personal experiences. I really don't want to bring the argument over here.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Great post and great perspective on the situation!
And congratulations on seven years! :toast: I quit this past June myself, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. For someone in the restaurant or bar business, smoking bans are truly a lifesaver.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Congrats!
Thanks for reading my looooong post.

I'm so glad you quit. That's one thing you can always feel good about no matter what.

:hi:
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. This should be in GD...not the Lounge.
Even so, I nominated it for the Greatest page.

The Chicago City Council (where I live...in Chicago, not with the damn City Council) keeps putting off a vote on a smoking ban. Damn them....

I am a non-smoker and have eye difficulties when exposed to smoke. Some here dispute it, but my ophthamologist says it is an eye allergy. And I have medication for it.

Thanks for this post. I completely agree with it. And I am delighted that you have a far better job these days and that you will not expose that beautiful little boy Garrison to cigarette smoke.

Others may flame me if they want. My mind won't change.

:hi:
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Thanks for the vote.
I thought about GD, but I wanted to keep it personal, so I opted for here.

I'm also glad Garrison will not grow up with smokers in the house like I did.

:loveya:
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You are very welcome....
I grew up with smokers in the house. I did not enjoy it. My mother quit nearly 31 years ago, and my father shortly before he died. :eyes:

:loveya: back.

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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent post -- thank you for sharing your experiences.
I was in the Navy and served aboard an aircraft carrier. We had a common lounge and smoking was allowed. There were nights where the lounge looked like a nightclub because there was so much smoke. The smoke would cause my eyes to burn and clothes to stink. There was no getting away from it.

I finally was able to move to a non-smoking living area and the differences were amazing.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yuck!
Thanks for posting. I really appreciate it.

:hi:
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you, dear...for this post..
Every day I am thankful to the legislators, city, county and state officials, groups and organizations and everyday citizens who stood up and made the laws happen in California to make smoking in public places illegal.

These laws banning smoking and the tax hikes on cigarettes made it easier for me to become a nonsmoker.

When I took my grandson to the Zoo this year, I was so relieved that I no longer had to sneak away from my family...walk through the whole length of the park...out into the parking lot...just to spend a minute or so sucking away..... and then run around, huffing and puffing looking for them, wondering what I may have missed.


Tikki
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Isn't that a great feeling?
I remember the first time I was waiting for a train as a non-smoker. I felt so free. I could have stood on that platform forever just feeling wonderful.

Now if we could only be this effective against other forms of air pollution.
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
51. I can't wait for the government to correct MY bad habits! n/t
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. As they say....It Takes a Village.....
My Village...California...put a no smoking in public places policy in place.

No government made me put down my cigarettes....I did that on my own.

Best move I ever made. Saves me oodles of money and gives me more time to wander around, in and out of places, with my family.



Tikki
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Good for you. A private bar isn't a public place.
It's merely open to the public.

That's a lot of power to give to the government.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. While I do sympathize...
...working in a bar or restaurant and not wanting to deal with smoke is kinda like working as a lifeguard and not wanting to deal with the sun. Unless one works in a no-smoking establishment, one should probably expect to be around smokers. If one is not comfortable with that, they should probably seek employment elsewhere.

I feel this should be market-driven, not legislated. If there's enough of a demand for smoke-free eateries, they'll be there. If not, they won't be as prevalent.

To me, it's like saying that I don't like loud music because it causes hearing loss and then insisting that all bars and concerts play their music softer. I believe the appropriate way to deal with the issue would to refrain from frequenting places that played loud music. In the same way, if I don't like smoke, I should stay away from establishments that allow it.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. While I disagree...
...I really do appreciate the way you expressed yourself. What you say makes sense, and I can understand having that point of view.

But when I first got into the business, I was just thinking about making money...smoking didn't become an issue until I was entrenched.

I just feel that in a world where people have to work, and especially regarding one of the few industries that's growing, and one that is able to absorb the most workers, it's not fair to ask people to stay away from it if they don't like it.

I believe that the market and regulation have to work together. I believe that the market and regulation working together is relay the essence of Democracy.

But again, I just wanted to share the personal and emotional reasons behind my opinion.

Thanks much for posting.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I do appreciate your story.
I'm a sort-of-ex smoker (I'm a band/club photographer as a hobby and I only smoke when I shoot gigs). I try to be considerate with my smoke when I do smoke, but I realize it does bother some people.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Thanks.
Cool hobby. Do you have any work online?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. www.slantzero.com
www.slantzero.com

I do their photography.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. They look like a lot of my friends.
;-)
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. They're all air traffic controllers (like me) doing it as a hobby.
Since I'm pretty much committed to shooting all of their gigs, I'm fortunate that they're also pretty talented musicians...

:)
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. Air Traffic Controller...
...that's interesting too. I wouldn't have the nerve for it, I think.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. It's just like any other job, some people are more suited for it than
others. Personally, I love it. I get to solve problems my way and everybody has to comply (of course, I have to be right...).

Something like customer service would be much more stressful for me.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
37. I've actually used that same analogy (loud music)...
to describe why I don't like the bans on smoking.

Of course, there's also the completely selfish reason that I want to smoke in bars. :evilgrin:

I make my dough writing a music column, so its not as though I can stay out of bars and clubs. For the record, I don't have as big a problem with smoking bans in restaurants -- folks gotta eat. But gimme my bars, fer chrissake!

That's the way we have it set up here in Florida (no smoking in restaurants, but smoking is allowed in bars and clubs), and I think it works out pretty good.
If you don't want smoke in your bar, there's plenty of bars that serve food, and therefore don't allow smoking. But leave the alcohol-only places to us hedonists, please.
Thank you. :evilgrin:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
52. I totally disagree
as a lifelong asthmatic and frequent traveller to other parts of the country, it's almost impossible to stay out of restaurants where smoking is allowed, but I always pay the price afterwards. :(
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. I was spoiled, living in California
Now, in Las Vegas, I'm in the thick of it again. Not good.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I've never been to Vegas.
I want to go out West again and spend more time exploring. I LOVED California.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Vegas is an experience
Unless you live here, which is a whole other ballgame, I wouldn't recommend staying too long. When I visited, I could only take a couple of days. Not really into gambling at all, though. The Strip has lost most of its character (and is vastly more expensive now) but it's still a spectacle, and the somewhat soulless mega-resorts that have sprung up are undeniably quite something to see. There are casinos elsewhere that generate more income, these days, but nothing on the planet is ever going to be quite like Vegas, baby.

I love the West. The natural West, I mean. I love other parts of the US, but it's the West that keeps drawing me back. Some of my favorite territory in this nation is within the 'Four Corners' states, as well as California's Mojave Desert. Even if you come from a place vastly different from these arid and alpine lands, the vastness and sheer character of the Western deserts (and high country, as well as higher-latitude forests and the like) can get its hooks into you really quickly and deeply.

Y'all come on back now, y'hear?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. I was in Vegas a few years ago and was amazed by the lack of smoking.
I see MUCH more of it in the bars here in Cleveland.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. I've probably seen more of it in other countries, but it does seem to
be like there's some kind of rule that you've got to be burning tobacco products so as to gamble properly. There can't be that percentage of smokers in the general US populations.

Some of the bigger casinos have better air circulation, but some of the small places -- especially the off-Strip haunts of locals -- get so thick that eyes begin to water within minutes of entering.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I stayed on the strip...
...but I didn't see that much smoking, even in the casinos. I remember being impressed by it.

Maybe I just hit an off week.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. I sympathize with you but...
Forcing owners of businesses to ban smoking is a bit much. So much for "Privately owned and operated".
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Well, we force them to have fire exits...
...and to give employees breaks, and carry first aid kits abd all kinds of other things. Personally, I don't see the difference.

:hi:

Nice to see you though. I love The Lounge.
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
21. I had the same experience in NYC in the 80's
I know what you mean.
I used to have clothes that I would only wear to work, even after washing them they stank so bad, I could not bear to wear them anywhere else.
I never was a smoker, so for me I don;t know if it was worse, since I was not trying to quit.
But it was horrible. I am amazed now at bars in NYC.
I don't, as a rule, go to bars anymore. At least not very often. When I do, as I said, it is amazing.
It is impossible to describe the difference.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. It really is.
I don't go out anymore either, 'cause of the baby mostly. But the few times I did go out after the ban, it was really enjoyable.

:hi:
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flamingyouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
28. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
I have asthma and have had a hard time enjoying myself in bars or clubs for a few years now. :hug:
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. asthma is rough
sorry to hear that.

stay well.

:loveya:
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
33. I think this is something that everyone has to decide for themselves.
My father has never picked up a cigarette, unless buying them for someone else, in his life...but he doesn't support public smoking bans. As a society, lines have got to be drawn. I sympathize with your experience, but we are not all biologically made up the same. My thoughts will always be, until they ban vehicles on the road, emitting carcinogens, bar owners should be allowed to make their own decisions. Because my father supports smoking in public, he will never be a patron at a bar or restaurant that bans smoking. I usually get into heated flamewars over this, because many people come at with a holier than thou attitude. (which you have not) Luckily, I don't go to bars, so smoky atmospheres aren't at issue for me...but I do walk the streets in my town, and traffic congestion can trigger breathing problems in my son quicker than quick. I suggest a ban on emitting carcinogens from any source.

Thank you for sharing your story, rbnyc. :hi: :hug:
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Your post brings up an important point that makes this such a tough issue.
I think ONE of the things that makes this issue so emotional is that, and I've said this before so forgive me, cars and factories and other big sources of serious air pollution which are harmful to everyone and so much harder to avoid than cigarette smoke are so much harder to organize against. Because, sadly, it's very easy to pit people against one another, but very difficult to effectively unite us against the corporatocracy.

Living in New York City is supposed to be the equivalent of smoking 2 packs a day, I've heard.

Anyway, thanks for your post.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
34. The old kanard that you don;t have to go into the place where
they smoke is just not valid...

People who don't smoke, or who, as I am, could be physically hurt by exposure to smoke, are at an economic disadvantage...

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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Thanks!
That's really one of the main points I'm trying to make.

:hi:
:loveya:
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. I'm equally troubled by the argument that until cars are emission-free
bar owners shouldn't have to ban smoking. So because the world isn't perfect we should give up trying to improve it?
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
39. as an ex- smoker and someone who played music
and loved the bar/club scene for many years, I empathize. Since I quit smoking about 10 years ago before I got pregnant, I have very little tolerance for smoke. It makes me gag and when my H and I go out, we run to throw our clothes into the basement and the washer.

It makes it hard to breathe. I was tolerant for a long time, but I really don't want my kid exposed to it, and it limits my enjoyment of musical activities I once loved. That's why I was so thrilled to go to a smoke free blues show here recently. It was great not to reek of smoke.

I can't make the choice and wouldn't want to, for others, but I much prefer a smoke-free environment for me and the family.

ps. I loved the Knitting Factory. My band played there once and it was really cool - amazing bands! This was before I had quit smoking.... must have been a great place to work, other than the smoke.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. When did your band play there?
Which space were you in? What's the name of your band?

Knitting Factory is a great club for music.

:hi:
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. oh my, I think it was 1994? It was in the late summer
on the weekend of the Yeltsin government showdown. It was our one gig in NYC. I think we played on the middle floor? - one of the staff told me that some famous alt jazz guy had just played there the week before, so it was worth it for that, too. I remember there was a lounge with couches downstairs - was that where you worked?

My band was called Bone of Contention, we were a goofy alt post-punk kind of band that tended to tell stories. I played the drums, mostly. We weren't well-known by any means, but the bass player had lots of indie connections and loved all the folks that typically played at the Knitting Factory. It was a neat experience.

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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
40. A question about healthy working conditions:
I don't smoke but I don't generally support smoking bans, it's just the libertarian in me that doesn't like having these thing dictated by the government. I do however see merit in the argument that the staff deserves protection from unhealthy work conditions, so my question is this:

If this were approached from a health department angle, with minimum standards for ventilation, filtration and air circulation that would remove smoke and provide more fresh air, would this allow smokers and non-smoking staff to co-exist?
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. I could go for that.
If it really worked, that would be fine. I;m a firm believer in distinguishing issues from positions. It's the issue that's important.

:hi:
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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. As a non-smoker who has spent a lot of time in bars...
I've noticed that smoke bothers me more in some bars than others. The only difference I've been able to find is in the air handling systems.

I don't know if good ventilation is enough to protect the worker's health but it might be worth looking into.

Maybe a bar could get a "smoking license" that sets an air quality standard that would be regularly tested.

Just my 2 cents.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I like that idea.
I think there should be no fee. Owners will be investing enough in the vetilation.
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. No Quarter
That's why I think the 'worker's health' angle promoted by the anti-smoking crusade is bogus. Every other industry is given the opportunity to implement engineering controls.

I am quite sure that you could make a buck passing beer through an airlock to a bunch of smokers in a bar in NYC.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. I'm sorry.
I actually just don't understand your post. Could you re-phrase. I just don't know what you're trying to say.

Thanks.
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. "Take no prisoners" "all-out war", etc.
First, the anti-smoking brigade went after establishments that allowed smoking on the basis of public health: smoking was bad, and customers shouldn't be forced to deal with it. Generally they lost on this argument, the state rightly figuring that the state has no authority on deciding what private enterprise should offer customers.

Then, they decided a different tack, that they would attack smoking as a worker health issue - the state has the right and the obligation to protect workers in the workplace. This one is the one that gained steam. The problem was, neither OSHA nor the EPA qualified environmental tobacco smoke as a top-level hazard. So, the political pressure ensued - and the EPA changed their classification methodology such that ETS became a level 1 hazard. ETS couldn't be regulated by OSHA type rules - there'd be too many 'outs' - ventilation, filtration, etc, to satisfy the desires of the anti-smoking zealots.

It is most undoubtably in the broad public good to eliminate smoking. I feel that the state should, from a public health perspective, fund cessation programs, education, etc. I don't think they should outlaw what goes on behind closed doors between consenting adults.

And from a personal perspective, though I don't smoke, I feel that the whole bar ban is an attack on bars - and I like bars. By 1) placing restrictions on bar operations, which, despite the spin, can only HURT bar revenue, you decrease the number variety of bars available. by 2) forcing all the smokers to take their smoke breaks outside of bars, you make them even less desireable as neighbors, especially in urban areas, which benefit most from neighborhood bars (small houses, walking distance, diverse population).
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. This was the argument they made before the ban
in California, and studies have shown that it doesn't hurt bar revenue.
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. California isn't a good study:
1) the weather is nice, people can go outside
2) most of the development isn't very dense, bars typically have room for patios
3) Californians are more health conscious than the rest of the country - fewer smokers

And, I absolutely refuse to believe these studies. Maybe it didn't hurt overall bar revenue - in the face of thousands of people moving to California, it's hard to say. It's also hard to say whether it just moved bar patrons from one bar to another.

A smoking ban is a restriction on business practices. There is no way adding restrictions increases revenue. They are lying.
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gardenista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
57. I'll just bet that if bar owners were faced with the choice of a ban and
installing government mandated ventilation, filtration, and air circulation systems, they'd choose to ban smoking.

I don't see the Libertarian advantage in this proposal.

For the record, I'm pro-ban, ex-smoker, spoiled Californian.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
41. I spent 3 years waiting tables full time and I know how you feel
I decided to wait tables full-time so that I could re-organize my life and find a new career. I was tired of sales commission jobs because sales suck and if you suck at it then you make absolutely no money. But I've always done well waiting tables.

I spent 3 years waiting tables and not only was I able to make it financially from waiting those tables but I stuck mainly with a chain restaurant because after 6 months you could get health insurance (they weren't the best but they covered me).

I spent three years working there and by the end of my 3 years I was no where near as bad as RBNYC but my mother swore I was a smoker. I had a horrible hacking cough that I couldn't get rid of no matter what I tried. It took about 2 years after leaving that restaurant til it finally started to clear itself up.

And not only did I work at that restaurant but so did several women who happened to be not only married but became pregnant. Like me they needed the job because of money but the best we could do was put them in non-smoking sections even though like I said, it was right next to the smoking section.

So I feel for what you went through RBNYC. It's tough when the restaurant industry is your best chance to make a decent living when there are no other jobs out there but then you're stuck in a job where you're facing healthrisks such as secondhand smoke.

I also absolutely adore & :loveya: RBNYC since you had my back in that thread. I'm not here to take away anyone's right to smoke. It's your choice. But nobody has the right to force their choice on someone else so until they can create a cigerette that won't produce any smoke that would affect anyone else other than the smoker then I will continue to support the smoking ban.

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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Thanks Lynne.
It's true, if you're around that much smoke, you may as well be a smoker...and if that's the way you make your living, it's just not right. It's especially sad when pregnant women are forced to choose between earning a living and exposing their babies to SHS.

Thanks again for saying such sweet things about me and for sharing your experience.
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