I am having serious doubts about the existence of God.

[elshiva]

This is a very painful time in my life and those around me. I do not know anything about God.

[billyskank]

1. There are many things I could say to that

But at this time I will just offer a :hug:

[TrogL]

2. Read "footsteps"

(provided link)

http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~wonj/me/ftstps.html

[sniffa]

3. ..and there were onLy one set of footprints

god hitchhiked.

[northzax]

5. yeah, God can fly, right?

in matters of faith one must decide by looking inside, at themselves, if they believe.

[elshiva]

6. I've read it. I respect other people for their beliefs.

It's just I don't know if God exists any more.

[RagingInMiami]

9. Nobody really knows

I guess we'll find out when we die. The rest is just fate, either you believe or you don't believe.

[PassingFair]

66. Have you read "Demon Haunted World"

Science as a Candle in the Dark,
By Carl Sagan, Elshiva?

I highly recommend it.

REAL acceptance is earned only by those who come to terms with reality.

Good luck.

[toey]

4. if you'd like to talk to an atheist who has made it through life's shit...

...and who now is happy as a clam, PM me

[Onlooker]

7. God doesn't exist ...

... which makes what we do in our lifetimes that much more important.

[elshiva]

8. Good point, but please say more about this.

[Onlooker]

15. Hope this isn't too pretentious

I've never put this into words, so here's a first attempt.

We have a rational choice to be either destructive or constructive. We don't need religion or laws to choose the latter. The nature of life (and the universe itself) is to be constructive. Constructive forces tend to nurture life faster than destructive forces destroy it. That said, the universe doesn't give a damn if we choose to be murderers. Generally, we choose otherwise because the processes that gave us life are constructive.

Without god, all we can do is be honest with our feelings and say, hopefully, we have to help each other. Without god, we get only one chance to act according to what we believe and how we feel. Without god, we are responsible for the world around us. We can't pass the buck. For the sake of those we love and the things we believe, we need to do right in this lifetime. Besides, there are only two things that will remain of us after we die: the dirt we become and the memory of deeds we've done.

(My beliefs are loosely based on an essay by Freud that I read as a teenager. I don't remember the name of the essay. But, in it, Freud talked about parallels between the way the human body develops and the human psyche develops, with a natural tendency to be hopeful and positive. That essay somehow helped me understand how a godless world can be devout in its own way.)

[elshiva]

17. Thanks! That is good.

[trof]

19. If I could nominate a reply to a post for the Greatest, this would be it.

Damn, I'd like to sit down with a drink and talk to you for a while.
You just put into words the way I have felt and believed for over 40 years.

And I sometimes call myself a journalist.
I am shamed.
Thanks.
:thumbsup:

[Onlooker]

23. Thank you

You really made my day.

[redqueen]

10. Agnostic here...

So I literally don't know what to tell you...

:pals:

[elshiva]

11. Thanks.

[no name no slogan]

12. God exists-- and she has a wicked sense of humour, too

[elshiva]

13. What? Really?

[no name no slogan]

26. Absolutely. Need proof?

Two words: male nipples.

[elshiva]

30. Interesting. Why is that proof?

[trof]

14. The Flying Spaghetti Monster loves you.

Yes, he does.

[arwalden]

22. Oh, You!

:thumbsup: That cracks me up all the time.

[KitchenWitch]

16. I know how painful that can be

I have been there...

Find some time with nature...

[LittleClarkie]

46. I camp

Yeah, that does help.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

18. Could we be God?

To me there seem to be two major forces in physical reality. One is the entropy by which things seem to break down and get chaotic. Some say the universe will end up dispersing and its galaxies and suns will die out after they scatter far from each other. The other force seems to be that of life, that concentrates energy and builds higher and higher structures.

Could it be that humans or an intelligence that evolves and replaces them will one day harness all of the energy and matter around them into structures? Could that life force even develop the means to go back in time and reunify each particle of time, energy and matter? Could that life force eventually concentrate everything into one mathematical point of pure logic, order, energy and matter? I think there was an ancient Greek philospher (can't remember his name, Empedocles, perhaps?) who said that the two essential elements of reality were hate (the chaotic disruptive force) and love (the attractive, logical and structural force).

No, I haven't been smoking anything today.

On Edit: If you have lost someone very close to you as I have, know that they exist somewhere in time. That physical reality containing them is still there, but time has moved on. Perhaps some day there will be a way of reuniting everyone in every moment in space and time and every living thing into a oneness. It might be some state of reality beyond time and space but I trust that that is what the intelligent life force seeks to achieve. Call it a belief in the power of love.

[Taverner]

20. I wish I could help you

But I am not sure the existence of a God or Goddess is any good against the pain that life can bring...

The company of those you love and trust has been a much better comfort (at least for me)

[elshiva]

21. Great point.

[nytemare]

24. I went through that about 4 years ago.

I used to be very Christian. I came across a book called "The Jesus Mysteries", and it changed me.

Shortly before that, I decided to admit to myself the truth that I "played for both teams". I could not understand how that was really a sin. It didn't effect anybody but myself, and the person I was involved with. So, why would being what I really am send me to hell.

Then, I read the book, which sites the similarities between Christianity and Pagan mystery religions. I got to thinking how I believed all the tall tales, like Noah's ark, for so long.

Now, I suppose I would consider myself a Buddhist or an existentialist. Both seem more philosophies and ways of life than religions.

I think the song "Imagine" really sums up my thoughts on religion, now.

I believe I am a good person. I give to charity, sponsor a child in Childreach, give blood, let people merge in traffic, volunteer, etc. I do not believe now in any religion that says I am going to hell or I am a heretic because of who I am. I think how I treat others is the true measure of life.

Hang in there. You will come through stronger.

:hi:

[DerekG]

25. A mature person calls everything into question

My story is quite the opposite. Three years ago, I was a secular humanist. But it proved to be unfulfilling. I was an idealist, but there was no love in my heart; I condemned injustice, but I was blind to my own capacity for evil. (Note: I am NOT suggesting that these travails exist for other humanists.)

But then a funny thing happened. I was in my morning Milton class, and the professor was referencing the gospel story of the resurrection of Lazarus. I hadn't thought about the tale in years, but when the instructor expounded on the meaning of Jesus weeping for the bereaved family, I was hit with a sort of thunderclap. When the session had ended, I sauntered to my car, and cried for a half hour. In the months to follow, I scoured the King James Bible, read the religious works of Dostoevsky, Tolstoy and Lewis, and poured over the writings of clergy/social activists like Dorothy Day, A.J. Muste, Thomas Merton, Rev. King, and the Berrigan brothers. Since then, I've become something of a Christian socialist.

If it is any help to you, I'll provide a link to a famous sermon dealing with God and suffering: the progressive Rev. William Sloane Coffin's "Eulogy for Alex."

http://www.pbs.org/now/society/eulogy.html


Good luck in whatever path you take.

[LittleClarkie]

52. I've surprised atheists because I have more than one translation

of the Bible so I can look up stuff in several of them.

I used to be the token theist over at alt.atheism. I'm kinda proud of that. They're not accepting of just anybody, theist-wise, you know. Me and one other girl, I think.

I'm always drawn to those opposites. The only Dem amongst Repubs. The only theist among atheists. No wonder I'm neurotic.

[HEyHEY]

27. I'll save you some time - he doesn't exist

[jpgray]

31. Who invented mallomars then?

:shrug:

[sundog]

34. buddha

[Midlodemocrat]

39. God, dude, I so hope you are wrong.

I have had a lot of personal loss over the last couple of years and the thought of not seeing those loved ones again would completely cripple me.

The thought of seeing those faces is sometimes what gets me through the day.

[HEyHEY]

44. I hope I'm wrong too

[swag]

59. I hope you're not.

And with each passing day, I'm more sure that you're not.

[swag]

48. Well, then, you could think in terms of eternal return, and/or the whole

mindfuck of time unknowable and eternal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return

Some of us find the notion of living this over again and always horrifying, and would rather exit the supreme misfortune of existence (by natural means, if that is comfortable enough) after one brief adventurous run, but some see the replays as inevitable.

Good luck overcoming or living with your losses. I am sure you loved them all well when they were here.

Or keep believing in a god who will reunite you with your loved ones.

Best to you.

[Midlodemocrat]

50. Thanks. But I don't know that any of us ever

overcomes loss.

I have so many moments when I am doing things around the house and I think "when I am done, I will call mom", and then I stop.

[LittleClarkie]

49. I always wonder about those near death experiences

where people see their loved ones. If it's nothing but a dream, then why are they all so similar?

I'm pretty sure whatever is waiting for us is not something we can imagine now.

[LittleClarkie]

28. Hi sweetie. I've been there too. Sucks, doesn't it.

Sometimes you come out of these times of questioning with a stronger faith. What you come up with is likely honest, at any rate.

Sometimes I just push to the side those questions I can't answer, and cling to those questions I can answer. If pushed on my faith, I don't think I could answer terribly coherently. But I know I have some, because of the way I've watched myself defend it.

Sometimes the only thing I'm sure about is that dude in the New Testement sure was a cool guy. And he doesn't look a damned thing like what some people try to push off as Christianity nowadays. He cared for the poor. He was gentle instead of belligerent or arrogant. Not a bad thing to emmulate even if, at the end of it all, you find out it was one big cosmic joke, eh?

Take care of yourself dear.

[elshiva]

29. Thanks for that, LittleClarkie.

Jesus is cool. I used to love him, but someone told me he was not real and not god so now I don't know.

[LittleClarkie]

37. I used to try and reckon with all the different opinions out there

made myself sick with it.

Then I decided that whatever I came up with, as long as I come up with it honestly, was about as good as what anyone else was coming up with. Everybody thinks they're right. I couldn't believe everybody, so I just went with me.

Hopefully the Big Guy will understand if I effed it up somewhat.

The short version: never mind what somebody told you. Go with your gut. Kinda like Kerry and his advisors. He was always better off going with his gut.

[elshiva]

41. Thanks. My feelings tell me that there is a God, but

my mind can't get around a God who would actually love me. Also, I am supposed to be a grown-up and I have been told by many philosophers that it is childish to believe in God.

As for Kerry: remember when he said something about listening to your during one the debates?

[LittleClarkie]

45. He's God. Who are you to tell him who he should love.

He's gonna if he wants to.

I was told that too by one of my college professors (childish and such). Like I said, I gave up listening to others on the subject. I LITERALLY made myself sick over that for years. Would you believe I used to look at Pat Robertson and wonder why I didn't have a faith like his. I've felt like a second-hand Christian for alot of years, just because I didn't express myself the same as these others, or because I wasn't a Republican.

I lost weight. I thought I was going nuts.

Well, to hell with that. I take it a bit at a time. I don't have all the answers. But I don't think having all the answers is as important as the journey itself.

Read some CS Lewis. That always made me feel better for some reason. Here was a very intelligent man who came to faith kinda late in life. "The Screwtape Letters" was my favorite.

Hang in there kid. And don't let people push you and your faith around. I used to. I don't anymore. I reckon some folks here found that out.

[elshiva]

51. Thanks. God annoys me by loving be so much

when I am so depraved and ugly. I guess I was reading John Shelby Spong this afternoon about God not being a lover or father and it really pained me because I experienced God as the only Being who ever loved me that intensely. So, I thought Spong is so much smarter and experienced than stupid old me, so I guess he's right and there isn't such a God.

But then I had dinner with my parents and my grandmother this night. I did not say anything about my pain, but they were all so loving that I thought again about it. To me God is love, the love I see among any sort of creatures. So sue me if I say so, Mr. Spong.

[LittleClarkie]

58. Spong weirds me out

He's sort of a non-believing believer. He's gone so far his own way that I'm not sure I want to even have a peek at it.

But it's good to question once in a while. The fundies who insist people shouldn't read or see certain things for fear of shaking their faith annoy me. If their faith is so weak that it can't stand up to such things and be the better for it, I fear that they will be knocked of the theist wagon pretty quick if they ever hit real adversity.

[elshiva]

61. Spong weirds me out even though I love him for his

stance on homosexuality. As far as modern liberal Episcopal/Anglicans go I prefer Carter Heyward and Marcus Borg who at least seem to have room for God as lover (Heyward) and a mystical understanding of panentheism (Borg). But our church is reading this Spong book so I keep on with it.

Questions are great. And I think Christians (as well as all people) should read all things and keep an open mind.

[LittleClarkie]

64. I LOVE Marcus Borg

I need to recheck his Reading the Bible again for the first time book out of the library.

There was a book about historical critical reading of the Bible that was interesting too. A different way of looking at things that take the context into account.

[DerekG]

69. Two points, elshiva

1. I've been here for four years. Suffice to say, I've read quite a few of your threads/posts. So please take my advice to heart when I tell you to stop describing yourself as "depraved," "ugly," and "stupid." No one as sensitive as you could possibly be depraved, nor could anyone who reads theology--whether it be mass-marketed or obscure--be fancied stupid. And since you've shown an interest in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions, you know that one's beauty derives from the soul (turn to Greek/Roman mythology for the shallow alternative). Yours is radiant.

2. Spong is invaluable for savaging fundamentalism, and defending the rights of women and gays/lesbians. But that does not mean his conjecture--that Christianity be stripped of its mysticism--is correct. No, I'm afraid I will not divorce myself from God-as-Father/Mother/Lover. One need only look to scripture:

"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4: 7-8)

[Az]

32. Know this

Whether god exists or not there is enough wisdom in this universe to come up with the noble ideas found in the world's philosophies. Whether these gems are from humans or gods they exist.

The trouble that some people have when they lose their belief in god is they lose their sense of purpose as well. They fall into a nihilistic pit. There is no purpose to life. Life has no meaning.

Like many things in this life this is a true and false at the same time. It may be true that the universe has no purpose or meaning for our existance. But this does not mean that we cannot create one for ourselves.

There is no meaning to life other than what we make of it.

There is a show I watch that brought this idea forward in another way. It said it may be true there is no meaning to life, but by living you may find some interesting things along the way and perhaps that is enough.

[Arugula Latte]

33. Nobody knows anything about god. Most think they do.

I personally think that the existence of a diety or dieties seems a stretch. However, that's not to say there's not a possibility that something is out there. I doubt it, though.

[Xipe Totec]

35. If God exists, what would you do differently?

What life changing decision sits in the balance waiting to find out whether there is a Supreme Being?

If the answer is none then set the question aside, move on, and make the best of the limited time you have been granted existence.

If your actions would be different based on His existence, ask yourself if you would then be worthy of His grace...



... if, it turns out that he exists after all ...

[elshiva]

43. If he exists, I could be loved and be part of a wonderful, liberal

community that is my church. I could pray and feel his loving presence. I could feel the connections between all that exists. I could have hope in my future.

[LittleClarkie]

47. His being there doesn't depend on whether or not you can feel it

Have you talked to anyone at your church about this? The pastor or some people you trust? I bet there's someone there who could help. If they're liberal, that should also mean they're intelligent and thoughtful people. Let them help, or at least give you a hug.

[elshiva]

53. Good idea! I was thinking of calling the pastor tommorrow. She is a great

woman. Very liberal and kind to me. I think she will understand.

[PassingFair]

67. And if god doesn't exist, you could..

be part of a wonderful, liberal community that is NOT your church, but all of humanity.


Remember Epicuris:

"Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot; or he can, but does not want to; or he cannot and does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can and does not want to, he is wicked. But if God both can and wants to abolish evil in this world, then how comes evil in the world?"

Ask yourself if you really believe that "god" caused Hurrican Katrina.
If "he" did, why should you worship "him"?

[sendero]

36. I try to live..

.... like there is a god, but I don't really believe their is.

If there is, I choose not to "worship" him/her - because s/he has steadfastly refused to reveal who s/he is and what s/he wants from us.

And please, a bunch of hand-picked, edited, translated, fooled with a hundred times books do not qualify as the word of god, when s/he could just as easily pop into the sky and say "listen up".

[Dr Fate]

38. I like the New Testament.

Some great stuff in there.

[LittleClarkie]

40. Indeed, even if you don't believe it happened, that Jesus dude

is pretty damned cool.

Why is it he looks nothing like Senator Frist or Santorum, I ask you? Pharasees, the lot of them.

[elshiva]

42. I love the Bible, too.

[Elidor]

54. I'm sorry you're hurting. How 'bout a fable?

Once upon a time there was a god - "the" god, in fact. God was very bored with the prospect of facing eternity with not much to do. "If only I could forget that I was god," god thought. "I could forget that I can't suffer. I could forget that I've done everything I could ever do. I could forget...and re-learn everything about who I am. And the joy I feel will be made greater by the pain and sadness!"

So god created a new world where god could be mortal for a while. And god split up into many different little pieces of god and turned them loose to populate the planet. And all of them, upon taking bodies, forgot they were god, forgot they were forever. They did un-god things. And it was good. Even the pain and sadness were part of the feast of emotion, and all parts of god were caught up in the adventure. (Some parts of god even doubted god's existence, but god didn't mind, because how could god be offended by god?)

I'm sure that doesn't lessen the pain, but sometimes when I'm hurting, the delicious irony of it all makes me smile.

[elshiva]

56. That is cool! Did you write that?

[Elidor]

60. I wouldn't call it "written"

I just tried to get all the pertinent points into a brief space. It's not very elegant, but it conveys the ideas that guide my stars in the night sky.

Glad you liked it. :)

[elshiva]

62. Nice and too true.

[youthere]

55. I don't have any advice...

at least not any that I could express very well. I just want to tell you that I'm sorry you're in pain and I hope things get better.:hug:

[elshiva]

57. Thanks!

[scarlet_owl]

63. .....

:hug:

[elshiva]

65. Thanks!

[pitohui]

68. me too

you're not alone, elshiva, and you know what



at this point i do not even care if god exists because he totally does not deserve my respect & worship

if god wants worship, he should do his fucking job

as you point out, at the moment, he can't even be arsed to exist

talk about the 5 week vacation!

bitter much, why yes i am