To all trolls - the real point isn't that the war was wrong

[JAbuchan08]

(although it was wrong) the real point is, right or wrong, Bush had such a hard-on for war that he fucked up the planning trying to do it quickly and on the cheap.

[Hello_Kitty]

1. And he thought it would be won so easily

That everyone would forget the whole 'unjustified' part.

[bubbismith]

19. Disagree. It was the war at all, not just the bad planning.

Optional war, discretionary war, war as other than the last option. This was the real problem. The SECONDARY problem was the bad planning.

We all know that war would never have happened if Gore were allowed to take office after winning the last election.

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. Housewives in NH and FL could tell the planning was

fucked up before we ever invaded. How tragic is that?

[knowbody0]

3. hey- women do not marry houses

[JVS]

5. Manwives? Never head of those

[Pacifist Patriot]

22. Okay, okay. What word do I use?

[skygazer]

24. Don't use any

Because it's pretty insulting that you think women are less able to understand military strategy than men. Personally, I've been studying military history for about 20 or 25 years now and I would qualify as a "housewife". The point is, don't make assumptions based on gender - they're stupid.

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. Um, actually I think I was stating the opposite.

The housewives of my acquaintance appear to be more knowledgable and have more foresight than professional military strategists.

[stinkeefresh]

13. anyone in the market for a househusband?

Because that's a job I want. (I'm totally cute and great with kids.)

[sweetheart]

20. You don't want that job

When the wife comes home, there will be an implict demand that you,
since you're just loafing around the house all day, have done the
laundry, vacuumed the floors, wiped up the kitchen and gone grocery
shopping. On top of that, every time you spend money, you'll hear
the "oh no" from SO... keep the credit card and ebay away from
house hubbie.

Since you're a man, you'll not only be able to do all the house
wifey sorta work, but you'll be expected to add an extension to the
house as well, being that those muscles and fat belly must be good
for somethin'! ;-)

I discover that being a housewife is demeaning, that people don't
respect you for it, and that being able to get out and be respected
amongst peers is a subtle joy that is missing a housewifey. On top
of that, prodestant culture has no place for house husband except
"loafer". Even if you cook a perfect dinner, don't expect anyone
to appreciate it, rather where are your balls, mate!

As well, there are all the emotional internal issues you and your
wifey will work out regarding male and female tradions and roles
which may not be a fight, but it is certianly no turn on to feel
so locked in a gilded cage. My sympathies with housewives the world
over have increased 1000 fold since trying it myself.

If you (husband/wife) want the floor vacuumed, then hoover it your
bloody self... the housewife is busy playing video games. ;-)

[stinkeefresh]

23. Oh yes I do!

See, I've done it too. Just not anymore. And it was fantastic!

I have to clean the house when I'm single anyway, so that's no big deal. Add-on's, home improvement- what could be more satisfying? And I don't really spend money anyway, so that's no issue.

The only emotional issues we had to deal with was my wife's utter despair at getting up and going to work every morning. I sure could sympathize. 9-5 is pure death.

And as for respect, hell, the world can blow "respect" out their ear. I learned a long time ago not to give a rat's ass what other people think, and I find it's an easy and satisfying way to live.

So ladies, consider the offer! Recently split-up, no attachments but my filmmaking (which I will do AFTER the housework is done), and despite my screen name, I smell simply divine.

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. Do you clean toilets?

[stinkeefresh]

31. not usually

but for a fellow pacifist I'll see what I can do.

[gollygee]

21. Housewives in Michigan too!

At least I can speak for one of us. LOL

[Inland]

4. Well, here' s the point--

Those of us who were against the war thought it would be much more costly in lives and money and prestige and security that Bush (and his media allies) let on.

The war that Bush convinced the US to undergo was a fantasy. If he hadn't made it seem deceptively easy, we would never have backed it.

Therefore, the war is both wrong AND badly planned. Bad planning made a bad choice at the inception AND continuing shit storms as time goes on.

[Droopy]

7. I wonder if the American people were told

at the onset that we would be there at least three years if they would have been so gung-ho about the war.

[leftynyc]

12. Don't forget the $200+ billion pricetag. (eom)

[Zero Gravitas]

17. It will be a trillion

by the time we're done and who knows how many 1000s of US deaths and 10s of 1000s of Iraqis.

[Inland]

32. No. So we are left to wonder if the admin. was

simply incompetent, not knowing or caring how long it would take, or misleading us, in knowing and refusing to tell us. Incompetent or craven liars? Or both?

[motely36]

6. I thought the war was over and we won...

Wasn't that the whole point of the Mission Accomplished speech?

[Zero Gravitas]

8. Bush fucked it all up

HE fucked it up because he was blinded by the neo-con ideology and believed that we could it quickly and easily. But then again if he wasn't blinded by the neo-con ideology he wouldn't have invaded in the first place.

Oh and if any right wing trolls are reading this: the joke is on you, this war was never about WMDs or terrorism, but they did rely on your ignorance and fear/hate to go along with their war. I hope you get drafted.
:hi:

[ffl]

14. at a loss as to what you think the war was about

please respond as to what you think the war is about?

[Zero Gravitas]

16. PNAC Fantasies

about turning the Middle East into pro-western free-market democracies by force. Nothing wrong with wanting to see the ME have democracy and prosperity of course, but doing it by force? They are completely out of touch with reality.

[Nicholas_J]

9. Correct

Bush was so determined to do this that he pounced on Iraq, without looking at the timing or place, and like the Soviet Union occupying Afghanistan, we will end up failing dismally in both Iraq and Afghanistan. These people know how to wait. They dont want the UnitedStaes there anymore than they wanted Saddam Hussein and they are reacting to our presence in exactly the sdameway as they reacted to Saddam. They only smile at American soldiers becasue it is the soldiers who have the weapons. When the solders move on, they tell the BBC that they hate us.

From thee beginning Kerry said that we had to prioritize, go after Osama and Al Qaedc first, and then go after Saddam once we had foirmulated a clear plan for regime change and a clear and strong coalition that would not start to back out before the jobwas finished. Kerry would in all likelihood gone into Iraq, But in all likelihood it would haveb been with France, Germany and Russia, And the regime change would have been much more peacefully ariived at once the military phase of the war was over.


Bush'a actions have resulted in one thrid of the deaths in a period of 18 months as Saddam Husseins regime killed in 30 years. While Saddam was in power, attempts to kill him or his Republican Guard or Armny were minimal, There was no insurgency, there were no terrorists, there wre no kidnapping of foreign citizens, no beheadings. While Saam was in power in Iraq, kidnapping of foreigners and other similar events were occuring all over the Muslim world. Not in Iraq. The Iraqis did not take the effort to attempt to topple Sadams regime. The Mahdi army did not rise up to fight Saddam.THey did rise up to oppose America's occupation and attempt to assert its own political will on Irq and its people. It seems tey want us a lot less than they wanted saddam

[stinkeefresh]

10. not me.

I used to argue the same points: pragmatism. Iraq invasion a bad idea from a global strategy perspective... blah blah blah.

This is all true, but it is no longer the argument I will be making.

I have values, dammit. And my values say that this war was immoral. It was wrong. It was, in the language of the religious right, a national sin.

I deeply regret choosing pragmatic arguments when my real convictions are born from my morality. I would be against the Iraq war even if it did make sense from a military strategy perspective. From now on, I won't be talking to the Bush supporters I meet about how we're creating more terrorists than we can kill.

I'll be talking about what Jesus would think of killing innocent women and children in the name of our own security.

[elperromagico]

11. My main objection has always been that a war in Iraq

would create instability in the nation - it has - and that, in that chaos, an extremist government would rise up and create bigger problems for us than Saddam's regime ever did.

Bush rushed to war with his rosy "Iraqis with flowers" scenario, and never even stopped to consider Scenario B - the scenario which seems to be playing out right now, at great expense to the American taxpayer and even greater expense to the 1,000+ soldiers and countless civilians who have died.

[barb162]

15. dittto and I am wondering when it will split into 3 countries and

when the whole area is destabilized and, and, and....

[elperromagico]

18. Those wonderful British cartographers...

"I say, why don't we make this into a country? Call it Iraq... "

"But there are three distinct religious groups in that region."

"And? As soon as we put them in one country together, they'll learn to get along. It works with the Irish... "

[barb162]

26. yeah, lol

Saddam held it together through fear and brutality and that is the only way that works when you have these disparate population groups. The groups have nothing in common.

[Bertha Venation]

25. It's sure as hell my point. All else is backup. It was wrong. eom

[DrZeeLit]

27. Remember all those guerrilla warfare, house-to-house scenarios?

Wellllll, hey...aren't they comin' true?

I remember reading so many theories about what would happen, but those stuck in my mind. Then, when the troops blew to Bagdad, the Neocons said, "ha ha, you were wrong!"

I hate to say... "I told you so, " BUT

Let's all say it now....

(can this get much worse??? I know, I know)

[mark414]

30. exactly

i do not oppose war all out, though i do not support war all out either

i oppose this war because i knew from the beginning that we were being lied to, and there was absolutely no reason that this war should be fought

however, that is now a lost point because we're there, so instead of trying to tell people that we shouldn't have gone there in the first place, i strongly oppose how bad they've fucked it up

i supported the actions in afghanistan, and my support didn't come from a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11. i just think they fucked up afghanistan too, especially with concern to them getting all hard to invade iraq

some wars are necessary, this one is not.