What is your opinion of homeopathy?

[nuxvomica]

Poll question: What is your opinion of homeopathy?

I've found that most people I know have never even heard of homeopathy until I've told them about it. This is an unfortunate situation considering that the U.S. was at one time the center for homeopathic training in the world. In its heyday, homeopathy was practiced by at least a fifth of all licensed physicians in this country but that all changed when the pharmaceutical companies and their supporters set up the FDA.
It's too bad that homeopathy is so obscure. If mainstreamed, it could reduce both health care costs and the high rate of iatrogenic illness.

So what do DUers think about homeopathy? Choose the response that most closely describes your opinion.

(Please tell me if this is a dupe.)

[Don_G]

1. You Missed A Category

"Homeopaty should be the preffered treatment."

I've had some medical training but most of it neglects the patient's needs and focus on the bare minimum of their daily nutritional allowance, medication schedules and the quality/time alloted from the nursing staff.

The human body has an amazing capability to heal itself but only when given the chance, oppourtunity and a goal to achieve---something sadly lacking in our current health-care system.

[RC]

2. Homeopathy: The Ultimate Fake

Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth.


http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

[molly]

4. Do you have a medical background?

[RC]

10. Don't give me that crap.

But I can say yes, I was married to a nurse. One of my good friends is a nurse.
Before the internet I read non-fiction for a hobby. 6 to 10 books a month from the local library. Almost every subject you can think of. From astronomy to zen. I know about homeopathy. More Quackery for the ignorant.

Common sense says there is a point of diminishing returns. If this really did work the drug industry would be on the ropes now. Read the article. It sites it's references.

What are your qualifications?

[Sophree]

43. Modern medicine is certainly lacking

When a Doctor prescribes Lipitor to a person (friend of mine) with high blood pressure and fails to recommend or even mention any dietary changes or vitamins that easily, cheaply and safely reduce blood pressure. Something lacking or something criminal.

Modern Doctors have tunnel vision and a "pharmaceuticals cure all" approach when it comes to treatment. It would be nice if they would combine approaches, especially such obvious no-brainer ones as dietary changes.

And homeopathic remedies work for me. I take cramp bark for menstrual pain and believe me, the positive effect is NOT in my head.

[shockandawed]

5. ABSOLUTELY RIGHT

[nuxvomica]

9. It is pretty much assumed that anything above 24X has no material

Hahnemann was himself reluctant to use the higher potencies for that reason. But his students were doing it with good results. Homeopaths don't know why high potencies work but they do, and apparently more powerfully than the low potencies. Understanding exactly why they work is, to them, less important.
It is theorized that the homeopathic remedy is actually just a message to the body. The purification, dilution and succussion of the remedy may cause multiple images of the original molecule to remain in the solution. These images are then read by the patient's nervous system as though the body were confronting a representative physical amount of that original substance.
One dose of a remedy may do nothing at all if it's not the right remedy for the disease because it is only information, which is meaningless without the context of the analogous disease.

[Don_G]

14. LPN License

With a 4.0 GPA....

What are your qualifications including your "humanity" less the regulations that Regan/Bush enacted before they left office?

I prefer to work in other fields for now where my past training and experience does make a difference...including saving the lives of a few people in an Industrial Accident.

[Ein]

24. Googled the name

Causatory link: http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/goldberg.htm

Going to bed now, skimmed the article. This caught my eye:

In his latest book, Chemical Sensitivity: The Truth About Environmental Illness, coauthored with Ronald E. Gots, M.D., Ph.D (Prometheus Books, 1998), Barrett goes after all the illness categories for which diet and chemical exposure are "falsely blamed."

<snip>

Patients presume they are being made allergic or toxic or even being poisoned by the mass of modern chemicals, cosmetics, cleaning agents, drugs, and other human-made substances. They are mistaken, says Barrett. Their misbeliefs are especially hard to understand, Barrett says, "at a time when our food supply is the world's safest and our antipollution program is the best we've ever had."

His stance, if this is an accurate representation, that chemicals aren't the cause of growing health issues falls directly into contradiction to what my eyes, ears, heart, mind, and body dictate.

[nuxvomica]

27. Barrett lost a suit against a remedy manufacturer

He failed to prove that the marketing of remedies constituted false advertising and had to pay the defendant's legal fees.

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/07/10/quackbusters_lose_against_homeopathy.htm

[molly]

3. It is a whole new era

my husband is reading a book on injectible vitamin c. It is amazing! His adopted son has cystic fibrosis - there are several case studies documenting major advancements in cures. I will post more as I learn more. BTW, my husband take OTC vitamins and minerals for a condition he has that traditional medicine cannot cure.

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. I have been taking black cohosh (there finally learned to spell it) for

really extreme severe migraines of the type that triptid (sp) medicines are of no use. I have been doing this for the past month. So far, no extreme migranes. Only really bad stomachaches. But the trade off is worth it.

[JanMichael]

7. It's true, water has a "memory", and the more you dilute a disease...

...an "immunization" quantity/quality is reached.

What is it again? Reduced 10,000x? I forget but it's the greatest ever!

</sarc>

PS~ Don't go calling that Zinc nasal spray "Homeopathic" either, it's not.

[CanuckAmok]

8. I'm of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" mind. Oh, wait...wrong topic.

[Interrobang]

16. Fools and their money...

Being of a slightly libertarian streak, I have no problem if various idiots want to spend their money on tap water that's been waved by a periodic table a couple of times...as long as they're not sick with something infectious that's going to infect me if they don't have it treated with regular old allopathic medicine (that, by the way, uses the Scientific Method, only the best tool we've yet discovered for learning how the world works!). After all, I (and the rest of us) have already paid for the regular kind with my tax dollars; if they want to throw good money after bad, well, that's their problem.

As to the "good results" you can get with homeopathy or any other similar treatment for certain things, well, the placebo effect is really quite amazing, isn't it? Too bad organic pathogens never heard about it...

[nuxvomica]

17. The "placebo effect" apparently works with animals, too

I cured a cat of chronic gingivitis with a remedy after repeated bouts with the disease had been treated with antibiotics and each time the condition had returned with greater virulence.

A dog with lung cancer that I helped to treat with homeopathy survived 15 months after diagnosis, finally dying of the side effects of seizure medication. Three months after diagnosis, x-rays had shown the lung tumors to be shrinking.

[DemExpat]

23. My dog's epilepsy and deafness were cured by Homeopathy.

Amazing 'medicine' it is!

Homeopathy also keeps me drug-free for anxiety/depression - the best (subtle) relief there is for me.....

DemEx

BTW Here in Europe it is much more mainstream, and quite a few doctors take extra training in it to use in their practices.

[nuxvomica]

25. I learned about homeopathy because of our epileptic dog

This was a dog that had had a sad life. When we got her and learned that she had epilepsy, I looked into homeopathy as an alternative to anti-seizure medication even though I thought homeopathy was on the lunatic fringe. There were no local resources so I was never able to use it for that purpose. But my study led me to using it myself with amazing results. By the time the dog was diagnosed with lung cancer, I had learned enough to contact a European homeopath who advised me over the internet.
I wonder how things might have turned out had we been able to treat the epilepsy as well.

[mitchum]

11. Shouldn't I be able to pay for homeopathic treatment...

with a piece of paper that I have rubbed against currency?

[RC]

12. That'll work.

Even after all these years I am still amazed at what people will believe even in the face of over-whelming evidence to the contrary.

[ScreamingMeemie]

13. I think it comes down to any port in a storm for the seriously ill, tried

every other avenue, folk. I know when I was very ill and we could not figure out what was going on, let alone how to treat it, I would have been willing to sacrifice a chicken in the front yard to get relief.

[Kat 333]

18. That is how I learned about this

type of treatment - after suffering, for nearly three years, with an extremely painful condition that two doctors had diagnosed as pleurisy and treated with prescription drugs and heat therapy to no avail. Having to take a month off of work I went to stay with my brother in Denver. His wife insisted we go to Boulder to see a homeopath she was familiar with. After one visit and three or four days it was the first time I woke without the feeling of having bricks on my chest for the entire of the night, able to move and breath without constant pain. Not convinced it was the treatment I dreaded the trip back home thinking it might have been the altitude or who knows what though I continued it. It never returned. Then, 20 years ago, it was considered an alternative treatment but today, at least on the West Coast where we now live, I wouldn't consider it as such. Many doctors incorporate homeopathy into their practice with good results. This is also true of veterinarians who have found it to be effective in treating animals. Like all things - different stokes for different folks but it isn't something I would not have a look at if the need should arise. There are too many practitioners (MD's included) now using it with good results to be indicative that it's all just some sham irregardless of the fact some people may not be aware of it.

[premjan]

26. I guess it is just

an immune system response. The body is an information-processing machine. Small amounts and large amounts of a toxin do not have radically different effects. In fact a small amount gives the body more leverage to attack it strongly rather than be overwhelmed. As long as you are able to tickle out the appropriate immune response, you're home free. What's so difficult to understand? Someone just needs to collect more scientific evidence to set the PR record straight.

[nuxvomica]

15. What is the overwhelming evidence against homeopathy?

I'm not aware of any.

[RMJ]

19. Is it any more foolish...

than using the mold that grows on the top of water used to boil corn?

Why scoff at success? If something works, no matter why it works, that's a good thing, right? Someone is no longer in pain, that's what we all want. Maybe it is all in their head, but so what? They cured themselves without putting huge amounts of chemicals into their bodies by simply harnessing the power of the human mind? Woah, very cool.

OTOH, just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it isn't true.

[arwalden]

20. I Think We're Born This Way...

... I also believe that homeopathics should be allowed to marry each other.

[Susang]

21. LOL

And don't forget...they should also be allowed to adopt children freely and become high ranking members of the Episopalian Church!

[Rhiannon12866]

22. I think he should have explained what homeopathy is

It's a form of medical treatment, not a sexual preference! You guys are really confused! I know that you were joking.:D

[TheRedMan]

28. As a scientist, though not medical

The burden of proof lies with those in favor of homeopathy to prove that it is safe and effective. No one really debates safe, since the vast majority of homepathic medications are distilled water, lactose pills, and sand capsules. Effective is a more difficult hurdle, however.

What I have NEVER seen, even in Europe, is a statistical double-blind study comparing homeopathic medication to a placebo. Now, let's visit what a statistical double-blind study is.

In a double-blind study some patients are given the test medication, some are given placebo. It is called double blind because neither the person dispensing the medication nor the test subject knows what they are getting, which avoids any sort of bias on the test results. (typically the doctor administering the study gives the dispensor numbered pill cups and keeps the record elsewhere). Then the number and magnitude of improvements in the patients with placebo is compared to those with medication. Typically, you will find around a third of patients on placebo report improvement in symptoms and/or side effects.

Now, what are we NOT using? Anecdotal evidence ("I saw" "My friend did this"). This is what kills people about the whole Alternative Medicine debate. In medical research you CANNOT count what you observe as gospel. As a for instance, let's suppose I have a headache. I drink a Coke and take a nap. I wake up, and I don't have a headache. Have I discovered a cure for headaches in Coke, naps, or a combination of the two? No. The actual fact is that most headaches go away on their own after a length a time that is less than my average nap. Similarly, if you choose to attribute the cure of condition A to some action on your part B, you are kidding yourself. The human body is a fantastically complex system, and it virtually impossible to pinpoint anything as a effective by looking at one person.

So what is my point? While I am happy for every person who comes to this thread and report that they have been cured of some malady, you have provided NO PROOF that homeopathy work. NONE. Sorry. Homeopathy can show no mechanism for curative behavior, has no scientifically meritous study to prove it works, and ultimately cannot provide any reason to suggest it accomplish anything more than to line the pockets of homeopathic "drug" manufacturers, who makes a marvelous profit on tap water, cornstarch, and lactose.

[Kat 333]

29. Yep,

and rest assured it wouldn't be accomplishing that ("to line the pockets of homeopathic "drug" manufacturers") if what they were manufacturing - was not working. We are not considering some new product that has been on the shelves for three years. Also one would be foolish to think that all the current "tested and approved" prescription drugs on the market all do what they content to do not to mention the millions of lawsuits won by users of them that suffered side effects that run the gamut from irritating, life threatening, to death. Who cares how many scientific tests have been run (it sure as hell hasn't stopped the many ineffective, even lethal, prescription drugs from making it through these "studies" with a mark of approval). My hope is that this form of medicine is NEVER turned into the profit motivated sham that the corporate dogs have managed to put before the best interests of the poor unsuspecting schmucks using some of their "prescription" drugs. Science is a great thing but to have the opinion that anything that hasn't been proved in a series of studies or in a lab just "isn't so" has been something, it seems, at issue for many years and, fortunately, just as many people have realized that thought is pure nonsense.

[TheRedMan]

59. On the contrary

Bogus "male enhancement" pills make boatloads of money without working. (Do a search for stories on the bust of the makers LONGitude to find out how much...safely eight figures as a starting point.) Herbal breast enhancing pills make tons of money without working. Midol is much more profitable than Advil, even though it contains the same active ingredient. Bob Barefoot makes a fortune selling coral calcium at many times the price of bulk calcium carbonate (the mineral he sells) without it working (or him showing any understanding of the human body). This list goes on. As P.T. Barnum said, "There is a sucker born every minute," and he will buy an incredible number of worthless "golf aids" rather than hire an instructor. Need I continue? Profitability is not a function of effectiveness!

Similarly, the vast majority of FDA medication do exactly what they contend to do, thus their FDA approval. Secondly, they side effects are mild compared to their curative powers, again due to FDA approval. Secondly, I cannot believe that someone who is aware of the Fox lawsuit on Al Franken would regard lawsuits alone as proof of legitimacy of problems. Anyone can start a lawsuit, that doesn't make it right. (And further, you can win a lawsuit without being right. Tobacco, Breast implants both being good examples, not that either particualrly hurt my feelings.)

"My hope is that this form of medicine is NEVER turned into the profit motivated sham that the corporate dogs..." Wake up. It is already. It is a cheaper sham, because the FDA does not have to approve their stuff, since they market as a dietary supplement. Therefore, homeopaths do not have to prove their medication is even safe.

Why do I think homeopathy's claims of effectiveness "just aren't so" because they haven't been proven in a lab? Because they have not lacked the opportunity to prove their effecteness. People have tried, and failed. Do I think that it is the only way? of course not. But the fact that homepathy is batting .000 is hell of an indicator, in my mind.

Think of it this way. My science is materials engineering. Does anyone tell me that I could build a bridge from toothpicks and cream cheese if I were more open-minded? No, because it is obviously ludicrous. And yet, why do doctors have to have people with less experience and education tell them that water and sugar pills can cure arthritis, and they are too blind to see it? Do you not see that this is equally crazy?

[Kat 333]

62. That's not what we are talking about here

Bogus "male enhancement" pills make boatloads of money without working. (Do a search for stories on the bust of the makers LONGitude to find out how much...safely eight figures as a starting point.) Herbal breast enhancing pills make tons of money without working.

That's not what we are talking about here ... the sort of herbal remedies you are referring to

Similarly, the vast majority of FDA medication do exactly what they contend to do, thus their FDA approval. Secondly, they side effects are mild compared to their curative powers, again due to FDA approval.

LOL - is that why all these people are WINNING these cases ? And what this has to do with Al Frankin I'm quite sure. Of course anyone can start a lawsuit ... Fox lost and they should have lost. The people winning these cases for serious side effects from dangerous prescription drugs are winning because they should win. That is assuming, of course, Shrub hasn't put something in the homeland security bill or who the hell knows where else making it impossible for people who have suffered greatly to have any recourse against these idiots. Breast implants, as you mentioned, another a good example of FDA approved treatments that were not safe.

[Kat 333]

63. By the way ...

Your comment "(And further, you can win a lawsuit without being right. Tobacco, Breast implants both being good examples, not that either particularly hurt my feelings.)"

Seems rather odd for a man of science (of the medical sort or otherwise)

NOT all women who had breast implants, and later found that the side effects were devastating, were doing so in order to wave big tits in front of the likes of all males.

Women who had to have their breasts removed (both single and double mastectomies) were in fact URGED to undergo breast implants. Their insurance even paid for it ... Imagine that.

[Az]

40. Safety

Yes taking a homeopathic remedy is safe. Its particularly safe to whatever ails the victim as it will certainly have little effect on it. This is the danger of such "remedies". They sidetrack the victim from a real chance of being cured. It undermines real research for real cures.

I am by no means a fan of the pharmeceutical corporations. But their disgusting practices do not mean that other scams are more effective. We need to take control of the medical industry and return it to serving the people instead corporations. This is why so many are turning to alternative medicine because they distrust the corporations. Unfortunately this distrust is being used to take advantage of the people by even worse individuals.

[nuxvomica]

50. There have been double-blind studies of homeopathy

Homeopathic double-blind studies are expensive because they require complete casetakings of each participant and each is given a remedy tailored to their symptom picture. Any other means of doing it would be an inaccurate test of homeopathic practice. But single remedy double-blinds have nevertheless been done with the expected poor results.
Studies comparing homeopathic remedies to placebos for arthritis, diarrhea, and other complaints have demonstrated their effectiveness. But I think the double-blind study is very limiting in terms of what you learn. You said "The human body is a fantastically complex system" yet we make judgments about what new compounds we are releasing to the populace after a limited study of it's effect on a small group of people. By some counts, iatrogenic illness is the third highest cause of death in this country. And it's not always mistakes. I think we forget how complex the body is when we test these dangerous substances in such a fashion, comforted by the notion that it's "scientific."

[TheRedMan]

60. The point of complexity

The whole point of a medical study to get a large enough sample to establish a trend, plain and simple. This goes into the worthlessness of anecdotal evidence, and the reasoning behind the design medical studies.

"I think we forget how complex the body is when we test these dangerous substances in such a fashion, comforted by the notion that it's "scientific."" Which is also why testing is done extensively BEFORE human studies, why approval is required for studies. Scientists do everything they can to insure safety.

WHEREAS, Hahnemann himself poisoned his own family searchign for cures before turning to dilution. Many herbal medications are made simply on intuition, rather than testing. In fact, the margin for safety on herbal medications is horrifyingly nonexistent in comparison. Witness the herbal ecstasy deaths...

[Character Assassin]

30. Quack! Quackquackquackquackquack! (quack)

File it together with astrology.

[AquariDem]

31. I don't know whether to agree or not

I've grown up with very caring people who absolutely believe in homeopathy, and they've always taught that to me. Then I took Psych 101 in freshman year and learned about placebos, expectations, etc. Now I feel like I go both ways on the issue. I've feebly tried to argue "the other side" with one of the people I grew up with, but that didn't go too far.

[Character Assassin]

32. Please direct your attention to this link:

www.quackwatch.com

None better.

[DemExpat]

36. I'm curious about how placebo effect works in animals......

As mentioned above, my dog's increasingly frequent epileptic fits were cured with homeopathy - my vet suggested it as a way to avoid putting him on strong medicines which could harm his liver in the long run.

Many medical doctors here (Europe) have interest in Homeopathy for chronic conditions that regular meds can't seem to help.

I wouldn't use Homeopthy ALONE for cancer or other life-threatening diseases or conditons, but for chronic ones that could possibly develop into worse conditions there is nothing better IMO.


DemEx

[nuxvomica]

58. Regardless of what you learned in Psych 101

What is your experience with homeopathy? Does it seem to work for the people you mention?

[AquariDem]

70. It always worked for me and my family, but

I'm not sure whether it's because of a placebo effect/expectations or not.

[nuxvomica]

71. Homeopathy works well on animals

I've seen more success with animals than with people so that kind of eliminates the placebo effect (whatever that is). A homeopath once told me that it's easier to prescribe for children and animals because you can do so based on behavorial symptoms, which are very important in finding the right remedy (the "similimum"). Adult humans are very good at masking their real behavorial symptoms so they are tougher cases.

[tjdee]

33. What IS it?

Is it just alternative/home remedies?

Or something more?

[Character Assassin]

35. It's something quite substantially less, actually.

www.quackwatch.com

[DemExpat]

38. Look here if you're interested.....

From a quick Google search.....

http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/

http://www.nelsonshomoeopathy.co.uk/coffee/pages/1000733820.shtml

DemEx

[gyopsy]

34. Never heard of it...

:dunce: sorry.

[Az]

37. Homeopathy = Scam. Collect $1.2 million by passing the Randi Challenge

All a homeopathic practionaire has to do is prepare a homeopathic remedy and then be ablet to determine which vial it is from amongst a small group of similar appearing vials.

Homeopaths have claimed they can transmit this wonderous cure over phone lines and the internet. Just amazing. All you have to do is put a vial of water near a phone and poof its magic. Its a scam people. Right up there with ear candling and magnetic bracelets. Its a vial of water. The ultimate in snake oil. Placebo effect at best.

Think it through for yourself. They dilute a vial of water until there is nothing left of the contanminant and this is what is supposed to cure you. It's distilled water.

Normally I would not take such a stance towards beliefs but this is one that can hurt people. There is a thread going on in GD right now that shows the kind of harm that can come from some beliefs. This is one that can cost lives. When people go to such frauds instead of seaking real help they endanger lives. If it were just their own I could accept that as the price of gullibility but they endanger children and elderly no longer able to fend for themself. This should be a crime but there is too much money involved and so our "elected" officials do not involve themself in regulating it.

[DemExpat]

39. Looks like a scam what you mention....in Europe it is regulated

now and professionally accredited.

Accredited Homeopaths here are not frauds.

DemEx

Never heard of transmitting remedies over the phone or Internet here.....:eyes:

edit: it is even included in socialized medicine packages here as an alternative! (Up to a certain amount each year depending on the choice of policy)

[Character Assassin]

42. So is bottled water.

But selling it as a cure for some disease is, by definiton, fraudulent.

Those that do so are accredited con-men.

[DemExpat]

45. They are not sold here as cures for diseases.......

as aids for the body's own capacity to heal itself, so no fraud is involved, depending on your perception, of course. :-)
What will help one symptom for one person will not have the same working on another.

It is recognized by the medical establishment here as valuable, as a complement to regular medicine.

It's not as simple as you think it is.

Or else it is practiced in the good 'ol US of A in a reprehensible, for profit only manner!

DemEx

[Character Assassin]

47. My perception is that they are the very defintion of fraud.

Here, this is taken directly from www.homeowatch.com:

Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth.

Oscillococcinum, a 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms," involves "dilutions" that are even more far-fetched. Its "active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird "the $20-million duck."

Actually, the laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, which is related to Avogadro's number, corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024). Hahnemann himself realized that there is virtually no chance that even one molecule of original substance would remain after extreme dilutions. But he believed that the vigorous shaking or pulverizing with each step of dilution leaves behind a "spirit-like" essence -- "no longer perceptible to the senses" -- which cures by reviving the body's "vital force." Modern proponents assert that even when the last molecule is gone, a "memory" of the substance is retained. This notion is unsubstantiated. Moreover, if it were true, every substance encountered by a molecule of water might imprint an "essence" that could exert powerful (and unpredictable) medicinal effects when ingested by a person.

Many proponents claim that homeopathic products resemble vaccines because both provide a small stimulus that triggers an immune response. This comparison is not valid. The amounts of active ingredients in vaccines are much greater and can be measured. Moreover, immunizations produce antibodies whose concentration in the blood can be measured, but high-dilution homeopathic products produce no measurable response. In addition, vaccines are used preventively, not for curing symptoms.

Stan Polanski, a physician assistant working in public health near Asheville, North Carolina, has provided additional insights:

Imagine how many compounds must be present, in quantities of a molecule or more, in every dose of a homeopathic drug. Even under the most scrupulously clean conditions, airborne dust in the manufacturing facility must carry thousands of different molecules of biological origin derived from local sources (bacteria, viruses, fungi, respiratory droplets, sloughed skin cells, insect feces) as well as distant ones (pollens, soil particles, products of combustion), along with mineral particles of terrestrial and even extraterrestrial origin (meteor dust). Similarly, the "inert" diluents used in the process must have their own library of microcontaminants.

The dilution/potentiation process in homeopathy involves a stepwise dilution carried to fantastic extremes, with "succussion" between each dilution. Succussion involves shaking or rapping the container a certain way. During the step-by-step dilution process, how is the emerging drug preparation supposed to know which of the countless substances in the container is the One that means business? How is it that thousands (millions?) of chemical compounds know that they are required to lay low, to just stand around while the Potent One is anointed to the status of Healer? That this scenario could lead to distinct products uniquely suited to treat particular illnesses is beyond implausible.

Thus, until homeopathy's apologists can supply a plausible (nonmagical) mechanism for the "potentiation"-through-dilution of precisely one of the many substances in each of their products, it is impossible to accept that they have correctly identified the active ingredients in their products. Any study claiming to demonstrate effectiveness of a homeopathic medication should be rejected out-of-hand unless it includes a list of all the substances present in concentrations equal to or greater than the purported active ingredient at every stage of the dilution process, along with a rationale for rejecting each of them as a suspect.

The process of "proving" through which homeopaths decided which medicine matches which symptom is no more sensible. Provings involved taking various substances recording every twitch, sneeze, ache or itch that occurred afterward -- often for several days. Homeopathy's followers take for granted that every sensation reported was caused by whatever substance was administered, and that extremely dilute doses of that substance would then be just the right thing to treat anyone with those specific symptoms.

Dr. Park has noted that to expect to get even one molecule of the "medicinal" substance allegedly present in 30X pills, it would be necessary to take some two billion of them, which would total about a thousand tons of lactose plus whatever impurities the lactose contained.

I have lived in, studied in and still travel for work to Europe, and have seen how the products are marketed. The contention that "It is recognized by the medical establishment here as valuable, as a complement to regular medicine." is the same as saying that doctors also recommend drinking water.

And I do mean exactly the same thing.

[DemExpat]

49. They do recommend drinking water! :-)

My vet (bonafide medical doctor!) recommended Homeopathy for my dog....it worked incredibly well.
My health insurance (medical institution!) covers a certain number of Homeopathic visits a year for myself. I doubt it would cover fraudulent medicine........
My G.P. ( bonafide medical doctor....) has an extra degree in Homeopathy.
My experience with it has been more than positive, more positive than from meds from pharmaceuticals for most health problems, physical and mental.

I'll take my chances on wisely using Homeopathy whenever I can. Along with visits to my GP and specialists.
That's just my opinion.....

DemEx

[DemExpat]

51. It does sound incredible.....

but in my personal experience the remedies that work the best on me are the most diluted.....100X, 200X....dissolved in water and alcohol and then merely 'sniffed' out of the bottle once or twice a day......

Amazing, homeopathy! :-)

DemEx

[Kat 333]

52. Interesting ...

In the US you can get many prescription or non prescription drugs over the internet very easily. Everything from diet pills to viagra. Their "on call doctors" peruse through a few questions that have been asked of the applicant then a prescription is "written" and your meds are on the way. They offer 800 numbers to order by phone as well.

In treating with homeopathic therapy - as opposed to the goal being to control or cure an illness with the regular use of medicine it aims to help the body "cure itself".

There is no question that due to the very minimal quantities of a particular substance (one part in one million) some might consider them nothing more than placebos. However those doses, for those who have found relief from their symptoms, have proven to be effective.

Some people choose to "not treat" an illness in any manner. Others choose to stick with only conventional medicine, others will prescribe only to homeopathic treatment. Because many MD's are now incorporating homeopathic remedies into their practice it has made it easier to find a balance between the two - whatever works for each individual.

It is the same in the US ... homeopathic pharmacies work in accordance with the FDA.

[arikara]

41. Why is it

that some will scoff and attempt to de-bunk anything that isn't created by a pharmaceutical corporation. At the very least, homeopathy has been around for many many years and is known to be not dangerous. At the best, it can work.

On the other hand, the pharmaceutical compounds can be highly toxic even when used correctly, making some people sick and at the worst actually killing people. My husband was taking a prescription for Baycol which turned out to be very dangerous. He has symptoms of some of the problems caused by this drug and is now part of a class action suit against the company. I would far rather that he had been taking a homeopathic remedy. It would have been far safer and probably the desired effect wouldn't have been any different. But try to find a cardiologist that will prescribe a homeopathic remedy. They are all in bed with the pharmaceuticals, even doing their testing for them and everything.

[GAspnes]

44. I don't scoff at homeopathy

And, if I did, it wouldn't be because I'm in bed with the pharmaceutical companies.

I currently have it in the 'not proven' bin, because anecdotes are not evidence, because it hasn't been demonstrated in double-blind testing, and because there is no theoretical basis for it consistent with what we currently know about biology and physiology.

That's the same bin where I keep a number of 'faith-based' systems -- UFOs, astrology, Landmark Seminars, Christian Science, chiropractic, most psychological treatment and religion, f'rinstance.

If scientific evidence becomes available, I'm open.

[nuxvomica]

46. I understand why people don't accept homeopathy

There are two ways of knowing something: scientific evidence and personal experience. I know homeopathy works because of personal experience but I don't expect anyone who hasn't tried it to believe me. I do think the principles make a lot of sense and they are worth studying by any health care practitioner.

[Character Assassin]

48. Please clarify

I do think the principles make a lot of sense and they are worth studying by any health care practitioner.

Please explain exactly and precisely how the principles of homeopathy make a lot of sense.

[nuxvomica]

53. Diagnosis by totality of symptoms

I think that makes more sense than the piecemeal approach where every complaint is a different disease.
I think removing the causes of disease and invigorating the body through good nutrition, exercise, etc. is a good idea though it hasn't necessarily been proven a double-blind study.
I even think the idea of infinitesimal doses makes more sense than believing that two substances can come in contact and have zero residual effect on each other.

[Character Assassin]

54. That's not homeopathy

I think that makes more sense than the piecemeal approach where every complaint is a different disease.

I'm sorry, but who is advocating this? Certainly not allopathy.

I think removing the causes of disease and invigorating the body through good nutrition, exercise, etc.

So does allopathy. The problem is that far too many people wait for far too long before actually attempting to do this, and any medical practioner who they end up seeing can only play catch-up ball, so to speak, in trying to address their particular situation.

..is a good idea though it hasn't necessarily been proven a double-blind study.

There are innumerable double-blind studies that document that poor nutrition and lack of exercise result in deleterious effect to the human body.

I even think the idea of infinitesimal doses makes more sense than believing that two substances can come in contact and have zero residual effect on each other.

A. Infintesimal doses efficacy is the stuff of fantasy.
B. Allopathy doesn't content that two substances can contact and have zero residual effects. It is, after all, partially based on chemistry, whereas homeopathy would know chemistry or the scientific method if they called up and asked homeopathy out for a date. Repeatedly.

[nuxvomica]

55. These are all ideas promoted by homeopathy for 200 years

That allopaths have behun to adopt some of them is a good sign. Perhaps they will eventually adopt them all.

[Kat 333]

56. Yes ... and a bit more specifically ...

Homeopathic remedies (also called homeopathics) are a system of medicine based on three principles:

1) Like cures like

For example, if the symptoms of your cold are similar to poisoning by mercury, then mercury would be your homeopathic remedy.

2) Minimal Dose

The remedy is taken in an extremely dilute form; normally one part of the remedy to around 1,000,000,000,000 parts of water.

3) The Single Remedy

No matter how many symptoms are experienced, only one remedy is taken, and that remedy will be aimed at all those symptoms.
Similar principals forms the basis of conventional allergy treatment, where the allergic substance is given in a small dose, and in vaccines where an impotent form of the virus is given to bolster the immune system against that particular virus

[LWolf]

57. Other.

Homeopathy should, in non-critical situations, be used first. It can be used in conjunction with traditional care.

There are many alternatives to western medicine. My experience has been that physicians treat symptoms, not causes in too many cases. I don't see a physician unless something breaks, and then I pursue other medical care after the break has been set.

Homeopathy and related treatments treated my severe injury...I recovered more quickly and more thoroughly than my doctors told me I would or could.

[Rhiannon12866]

61. I know someone who feels exactly as you do

The only problem is that there are too few homeopaths around. It's difficult, if you are sick, to travel long distances.

I also have used alternative medicine and prefer it. It is less invasive and less dangerous. I have had acupuncture, as have both of my dogs and my cat! I have also used homeopathy for my animals, but I understand it's not compatible with acupuncture. And if it's difficult to find a homeopathic physician, it's impossible to find a homeopathic veterinian!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences. You have convinced me that I should think of homeopathy more often for myself.:-)

[LWolf]

69. You're welcome.

:toast:

to health!

[nuxvomica]

64. Here's a couple of sites if anyone wants to learn more

This is a general site with links to more information. It includes a lively discussion board:
http://www.homeopathyhome.com/

Another general site with some interesting online repertories and materia medica:
http://www.homeoint.org/english/index.htm

I am pleased to know that other folks on the board have used and benefited from homeopathy. I doubt that anyone who hasn't tried it can appreciate its effectiveness. When I was treating my dog for lung cancer, the instructions were to take a drop of the LM solution, add it to a bottle filled with 90% distilled water and 10% vodka, succuss the solution 10 times, then take a drop of that, add it to glass of distilled water and spray some of that on the dog's tongue. I did this daily and it felt strange but the effect on the dog was unmistakable.

[no one in particular]

65. I used it as an "if all else fails" treatment.

Had a serious problem with lice and my daughter. My ex-wife was adamant, to say the least, that I not cut her hair. The traditional treatments were next to useless. I ended up buying a homeopathic gel, Licefreee, which was a godsend.

That's my only experience with homeopathic, but it worked for us.

[Pert_UK]

66. They're OK, but I don't want homeopaths teaching our children.......

:evilgrin:

There's a place for homeopathy within "regular" medicine. In the UK, homeopathy is one branch of "complimentary medicine", i.e. stuff that's good to do along with your prescribed medication.

However, I overhead a conversation the other day:

"My 13 year old daughter's really ill with badly inflamed joints. She's in loads of pain and can barely move."
"My God. I hope you took her straight to the homeopath"
"Yes. That's the first thing I did".

Sorry, but get her to a F*CKING doctor before you take her to the homeopath. Homeopathy is wonderful, but not the answer to everything.

I also know of a medically qualified doctor in my hometown who turned "holistic" and started telling kids that you couldn't catch HIV through unprotected sex provided the partners truly loved each other. That kind of thing gives "alternative" practicioners a bad name.

IMHO of course.

P.

[nuxvomica]

67. That last guy sounds like a nut

It's too bad the bad alternative practitioners behave that way. That becomes the thing you remember about a relatively obscure healing art. If your traditional-medicine doctor said nutty things, it wouldn't reflect on the rest of the MDs.

[gate of the sun]

68. I use homeopathy from time to time especially

with my three year old it works pretty well. I also use herbs and other natural treatments like vitamen c. Overall works pretty well for me , he hasn't had any antibiotics yet. I have used homeopathy on myself and sometimes it works very well and othertimes so so. It's actually getting the right one sometimes I think. I usually self-diagnos I don't go to any naturalpathic doctors or anything I have worked in three health food stores and am self taught all it takes is some reading up on this stuff