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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:46 PM
Original message
How we will break the culture of rule breaking and incivility on DU.
Most of the members of this message board have no difficulty treating other people with respect, and participating in a positive manner. For that, I am grateful. Unfortunately, there is a small minority of members who either cannot control themselves, or have chosen not to control themselves. These rude people make Democratic Underground unpleasant for the rest of us, and have shown little inclination to change their behavior, despite repeated pleas from the administrators, the moderators, and the members of this website.

We believe that Democratic Underground has enough rules, and we will not noticeably improve DU by creating more rules. Our problem is that we have a small minority of people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, because they have no real incentive to do so. There has been no accountability and there have been no consequences for disruption. Until today.

Today we are unveiling a new enforcement system, which will help encourage all of our members to be productive members of our community. We are confident that it will provide a real incentive for all of our members to learn and follow the rules. We call it the Moderator Messaging system.

Here’s the great thing: If you are part of the vast majority of members who follows the rules and treats other people with respect, you will rarely, if ever, have any problems with the system. In fact, you can probably stop reading this post right here. But if you are part of the small minority of people who repeatedly cause problems, your DU experience is going to change a little bit. Here’s how it works:

When a moderator deletes one of your posts, you are sent an automatic notification to let you know. (Note: you will not get notifications for harmless infractions like duplicate postings.) When you receive such a notification, you are temporarily unable to post. In order to continue posting, all you have to do is review the notification, acknowledge that you received it, and give us your word that you will follow the rules. If you do not wish to follow the rules, that is your choice, however, you will not regain your ability to post on the board.

The moderators can also send you messages using this system. When you receive such a message, you are unable to post until your review the message, acknowledge that you received it, and give us your word that you will follow the rules.

If you receive a notification in error, we have the ability to remove it from your record. Simply send an email to the administrators, with the text of the post, and we will review it. Please do not waste our time with rude messages, baseless accusations of moderator bias, or complaints about deleted posts that include obvious rule violations. If you do send us such message, we will add an additional warning to your record.

If you receive five notifications, you get an automatic 24-hour time-out, during which time you will be unable to post on the message board. You will also get automatic 24-hour time-outs at 10, 15, 20, and 25 notifications. When you get 30 notifications, you are automatically banned. If you have promised 30 times to follow the rules, but still continue break them, then we can reasonably conclude that you have no intention of keeping your word. You get a special tombstone to indicate that your account was shut off automatically because of your own behavior.

I fully expect to hear a great deal of complaining about this new system, which will try to paint me as unfair, biased, fascist, censorious, or Ashcroftian. These complaints will be loud and disruptive for a few days, but ultimately they are wrong. This system puts the power in your hands. If you are the type of person who tries to treat others with respect, and makes an effort to be civil, you will never have any serious problems with this system. Based on our analysis of deleted posts over the last six months, the vast majority of members would never even get one time-out. However, if you are the type of person who is intentionally rude, or if you scour the rules looking for loopholes which give you an excuse to be disruptive, then you put yourself at risk of being banned.

The power is in your hands. The only person responsible for your own behavior is you.

I look forward to participating on a more civil Democratic Underground.

Skinner
DU Admin

Important notice: We understand that this is a significant change for our members and for the moderators, and we realize that many of you will need some time to adjust. Because of this, we are starting off with a “learning period” that lasts until January 1, 2004. On that day, we will wipe everyone’s slate clean so you can start from zero again. However, please be aware that if you get a time-out during this learning period, you are stuck with it, and if you get automatically banned during this learning period, you will stay banned.

Also, there will likely be a number of technical glitches and bugs over the next couple days as we implement this system. Please be patient.
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LuCifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. my $0.02
My gut tells me that almost 100% of the real s-disturbers here are freepers. Especially after Rush Lardbutt gave DU a plug. (Thank Rush! What a dork.) I can't get why any REAL Democrat, liberal, progressive, etc. would act as such, can you? Granted, every deck of cards has a joker or 2. I don't see any other option than to s-can them. The rules are right there to read, so it's they own damn fault!

Lu
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Elad ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. No, a majority of the deleted posts on DU
are from long-term, progressive members with over 1000+ posts, who for some reason or another, simply choose not to follow the rules. They're not from newbies, freepers, or secret rightwing infiltrators. That is a myth that is completely false - we know, we have records of all the deleted posts.
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LuCifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
126. nevamind!
In that case, uh, crap! Back to my ol' drawn board!!!

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!!!!!!!!

Say it with me: ABB! FW! ABB! FW! ABB! FW!

Lu Cifer, I'm down with ABB, yeah you know me
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Some have thousands of posts.
I doubt that they are Freepers.

I do agree with you that some of the serious disruption is done by outsiders. Just not all of it.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
63. totally agree with you!
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. This sounds awesome!
And difficult to program! :-)
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sounds like a good idea to me
:thumbsup:
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. Fantastic!
I completely agree with this idea. I also agree with the trial period to make sure it works as planned. ;-) Thanks for all the admins and mods do.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sounds reasonable...
I imagine this will be received with resistance - and while I generally am respectful - even the best of us 'lose it' from time to time - this systems seems like a fair way to remind us to cool down.
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. Great work, Skinner.

Sure will cut down on the blood feuds.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sounds great..
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 01:55 PM by SoCalDem
How bout one of the "time outs" when the same person starts thread #16 within an hour for his/her pet candidate?:evilgrin:

Primaries cannot end too soon for ME :)
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chiburb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. What you said... and they haven't even started! n/t
.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. If a post is removed...
to provide continuity only because it is in a series of others that have broken rules, will that removal trigger a message? thanks
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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Posts which have to be removed for reasons other than
rule violations will not trigger the system.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. No, you won't get a notification for that.
That's not your fault.

(And the mods don't remove those much anymore anyway.)
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jedicord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. Perfect Timing!
I almost didn't log on today, because I was getting so tired of reading the negative and mean-spirited posts.

Our goal should be to convince each other of why our candidate is the best to beat Bush. Then when whichever candidate is chosen - unite!
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. 30? You are a very patient person, Skinner. Cudos.
That's got to be a lot of work for you and the mods, and it would certainly be easier just to ban miscreants at five or ten warnings, or less. I admire your diligence and patience, and second the notion that this is about as far from arbitrary or Ashcroftian as it could be.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
69. what he said, very reasonable, and thank you n/t
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks
You guys rock!! Although 30 time outs seems awful generous I suppose there are some well meaning members that just have a temper.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. It's not at 30 time-outs.
You are banned at 30 notifications. Believe it or not, some of our members get 30 deleted posts in one month.
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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thank you.
:)
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. One little favor? Can we see the new tombstone design?
My curiosity is piqued easily, what can I say? :D
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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Here you go
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. That's cute!
Hope we don't see too many of those, but it's niiiiiccccceeee! (some sounds just don't spell well)
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. LoL
awesome!
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. I'll order one of these now
avoid the rush
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_NorCal_D_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. How poetic!
B-)
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
117. Poetic Justice
:)
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AnnabelLee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
100. Hahahahaaaa!
:thumbsup:
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. Great idea - wonder how long it'll take
for me to get my first moderator message?
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
21. Good job, Skinner and all!!!
this is long overdue.

Will there be a way for us regular users to know how many messages we (and others) have received?
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. AWESOME, and a Question
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 02:06 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
Thank you so much for this. And I say this as someone who almost certainly would have had one time-out by now, if not two.

Will this rationale also apply for threads locked due to blatant flamebait?

DTH
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
40. Locked threads do not get automated notificatoins.
However, if a thread is particularly gratuitious flame bait, the moderators can send a warning to the member which will be added to their list.
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #40
148. Now THAT will do the job right!
if a thread is particularly gratuitious flame bait, the moderators can send a warning to the member which will be added to their list.

THAT is the one rule that will be the greatest help to DU!
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
25. LOL!
24 hours Time Out for DUers. I love it!
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. I have one concern about this system
First of all, I think it's a great idea to try to do something about the problems. At the same time, there are a lot of cases where the very people starting the problems will antagonize other posters intentionally without quite breaking the rules with the intention of getting a reaction that they can alert on in order to get the other posters' message deleted.

I really, really hope that in light of this new system that moderators will take the time to look much closer at the alerts and review the entire interaction between the person who alerted and the poster they alerted on. If this isn't done carefully I fear that the new system might backfire.

Speaking from experience, I have been antagonized to the point of reacting badly on plenty of occassions and I've watched the same individuals play this same provoke and alert technique quite consistently.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. That's been covered extensively.
There are no exceptions to these civility rules. You cannot attack someone because they attacked you first, or because that person "deserved it," or because you think someone is a disruptor. We consider it a personal attack to call a liar a liar, to call a moron a moron, or to call a jerk a jerk.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. That's not so much what I'm saying
If I break a rule I expect that my post will be deleted and don't have a problem with that. At the same time I have seen many posts get deleted where the likely person who alerted made a much worse post than the person whose post was deleted. A recent example that I personally experienced was where someone basically called me a cult member. Out of frustration I know I swore, but I don't think I actually insulted or attacked them. My post was deleted but the other person's wasn't. I'm pretty sure I alerted on it, too. One thing I think that is really important is for the moderators to take a closer look at the interactions between the alerter and the poster they reported to make sure that if they're both being stinkers they both get equal punishment.

On another note, I'm glad I decided yesterday to try to be less reactionary.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
102. I agree the same post set me off too
I am not even firmly in the Dean camp and I took offense to Dean supporters being called Cult members. People that open start that stuff need to be banned.

If DU mods can't stop that stuff as well this policy is worthless. If I am attacked in such a way and it is allowed to continue and I am not allowed to respond I will probably end up getting banned.

If this policy is even handed it was a long time coming.

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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. If someone seems to be deliberately baiting people
please hit alert on their post so the moderators can deal with it. Such behavior could get you a warning.

But being baited does not give you an excuse for breaking the rules yourself. Sorry.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. I know it's not an excuse
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 02:49 PM by KaraokeKarlton
just an explaination.:D

I have to say that I did have a case where I was personally attacked under the guise of the poster including me in a group. When I mentioned I felt the other poster should have their post deleted as well the moderator PMed me and said the other poster hadn't broken the rule and that group attacks were allowed. To be more specific, I was called something to the effect of "You Deanie cultists". It was quite clearly a personal attack, but done so covertly. On group attacks of candidates I think in light of this new system that it might be a good idea for the admins and mods to have a lengthy discussion about how to consistently deal with that particular issue, because it's a common cause of the reactions that lead many posters to get their messages deleted. I do believe it's intentional provocation with the intention of getting people deleted and/or banned. I'd just hate to see your attempt at cleaning the flaming up getting used as a tool to get posters someone dislikes banned. I'm sure you have already considered this as well.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. We are aware of this issue.
And we occasionally review it. Please be aware that extreme group attacks can get removed as flame bait, so you should alert them.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
105. So that means "Cultist" is not allowed?
Can you plz be specific. Does this apply to "Nut Jobs" ofr LIHOPers and MIHOPers?

If you want your policy to be fair and effective it should.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
67. Skinner I've had the same thing happen. And, have alerted but
the attacking poster's post stays and the replies which were defending themselves against the attacker are deleted. And, some of these instances were not myself who was being attacked, but I alerted anyway and nothing happened. Other times it's been someone attacking me, and same thing has happened. I applaud what you're trying to do, but we have many "stealth" attackers here. They seem to have the advantage.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
78. he made me do it defense?
in my house that doesn't even wash if for four year olds.

we are the captains of our own ships.....
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. That wasn't the point I was attempting to make
The concern was more about the potential for the most problematic individuals to use the system to get people whose opinions or candidate they don't like banned. Yes, we are all accountable for our own bad behavior. I simply wanted to make this point because I think it's important, especially in light of all those Deanies are "cult members" posts, and biased posts against southerners. Quite often there are individuals who will hide behind group attacks to post a barrage of offensive posts. I've seen even the most patient of posters get to the point where they snap for a few minutes because they feel it's unfair for this to be allowed. The second they get fed up and blast the one doing this their posts get deleted. I agree with the new system 100%. I just don't want it to be utilitzed as a tool by the more clever disruptors. Skinner's response satisfied my concerns and I believe that the admins and mods will work very hard to prevent that from happening.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
27. Good move
Probably this will cause there to be less people calling others republicans or freepers, simply because they happen to have a different point of view or support different candidates that are not as popular on DU.

This will probably stop this trend which should improve the atmosphere greatly.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks so much Skinner
As you knwo this has been a great concern of mine. I've posted in Ask the Admin and PMed you. I'm sure I am not alone.

Thank you for changing DU as circimstances require. Good solution. :toast:

Julie
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
32. I like it!
- Especially the part about the clean slate.

- I must admit...I've been very close to breaking the rules myself when confronted with rude, abusive posters whose sole purpose in life seems to smear Democratic candidates. Okay...so I many have broken the rules...but it's good to know that the administrators care enough about this board not to let it degenerate into a roman circus.

- Thanks. Good idea. Hope it works.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
33. time-outs worked for my kids....
should work in this sandbox too- beats throwing sand at each other!

:thumbsup:

Sounds like a good plan and good luck implementing...


I will try to behave....

Peace
DR
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
60. I refuse to believe...
Katy was EVER bad!! Of course, compared to me almost anyone is an O8) Especially her! :D

ZombyMom had her hands full with me, let me tell ya... :evilgrin:
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #60
89. actually just the "mention" of a time-out was usually sufficient
with both of them...
for her it was basically just a "hug time sit on my lap what is really going on here" kinda thing......


now I just find it impossible to imagine ZombyMom had any trouble handling you....she seemed pretty much on top of things when we met...do I need to mention the "Shopping Experience" or will you be a good lad now?

:evilgrin:

:grouphug:
DesertMom
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Butterflies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
34. It is needed
thankyou for trying to make DU more enjoyable again. Some protection of our civility is necessary these days. :*
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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
35. Will the Mods still enforce at the same level as they currently do?
My one prob. is that it seems a single mod or maybe 2 or 3 have been locking posts and decent threads for vague and often petty reasons. I personally don't mind a little angry debate, but when it gets out of hand, it does get out of hand.
However, sometimes I see logical and thought-provoking threads locked just because some ultra-sensitive DU'er got upset. As I mentioned, and I feel others also agree, that it's only 1-3 mods, not the whole gang. With this new system, I'd also love to see the mods take a small step back and allow a little more genuinely free debate, even if it's somewhat petulant.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Your interpretation of the moderators' actions is off base.
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 02:29 PM by Skinner
We have rules against inflammatory thread topics in the General Discussion forum. As far as I know, they have rarely locked thread topics that were thoughtful, and designed to lead to actual discussion.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
36. I applaud this
Let's see if I can put my money where my mouth is.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'm betwixt and between
First thing I think of is Mommy smacking our fingers, then I start thinking about who really owns this place. A lot of input from us members, but little or no actual decisionmaking.

But what the hell. The signal to noise ratio is getting pretty bad, and something has to be done. I've been in enough groups where the noise got so high it was eventually all that was left.

Specific rules that everyone can understand and follow are necessary, of course, and perhaps there can be some thought put into a "neutral" ombudsman panel.

I miss some of the people who have been banned or chased off for what might have been temporary lapses of judgment or personal obsessions-- theirs or others'. And methinks some of the older members causing the problems have their own problems with change.



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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
38. Good job admins
Thanks for all of your hard work. I have fought in the gutters some here. I have also realized that I don't care for it much and it's not productive. 30 warnings is way more than fair. I can't wait to see the new tombstone.

:yourock:
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Hope4 Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
39. Innovative way to do it, a hockey penalty box
I like it and it is fair.

I think one way that could really help is have just one form area that anyone can come on. Open to the public. This way you could see what the enemy is saying and maybe they would only go there and not sign up.

5 min. for fighting, like the concept as a hocky guy.
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DancingBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
41. Thank you Skinner!

Poliitcal infighting (policy differences, questioning "flip-flop" statements, etc.) is fine - part and parcel for political discourse. Some of the things posted here by all sides, however, are way beyond the pale.

Thanks again.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
43. Good Hell yeah
Sorry for the swearing I started a post on just that earlier today.

This is outstanding. I have pushed the rules a time or too but I think this is great.
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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
44. Perhaps notifications should disappear from your record after a period?
Say, maybe, six months, or a year? A limit of thirty warnings seems fair before a banning occurs, generous even, except that if the warnings stay on your record forever then I guess you could reach the limit very slowly and end up getting banned. On the other hand, thirty warnings is a lot. I dunno! Just my humble opinion.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Currently, the expiration date is one year. (nt)
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
48. Ok by me...just one question
Is posting a link that the mods feel is out of order an infraction under these rules? Some links may not be sanctioned by the mods but they might have valuable information for us.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:45 PM
Original message
Depends what the link says.
If it's a white power website or or porn or something like that, then you will get your post deleted. But if it's just a link that would be of interest to our members then we're not going to delete it.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
49. Thank you!
Although I have been a devout reader of LBN and GD for quite some time, I have never accumulated the posts others have because I've often been reluctant to enter some of the more "spirited" discussions. I HOPE this leads to MORE participation on DU!!

Peace,

Tansy Gold
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_NorCal_D_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
51. Very even-handed.
Excellent idea. :thumbsup:
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
52. Incredible timing!
I was just thinking of the exact same thing! I just didn't know who would be best to propose it to.

This plan will have a positive domino effect. If person #1 decides to properly behave himself because of this new rule person #2 may never have anything to get PO'd about and avoid nasty return messages.
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
54. Thank you Skinner, the X button is good, but you have to keep going
back to the forums then back to the room. This is great. I never read nor post to ANY candidate post except the ones you present. All the others become an argument between Clark and Dean supporters. I like both...really all candidates and refuse to be swayed by vitriol.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
56. My only suggestion
is to have the 'count' on file reduced by x amount over four months so so. Yes, 30 posts seems like a lot, but 30 posts over a few years isn't.

Then again, maybe if the consequences were irrevokable, people (myself included) will take extra care before posting something inflammatory. Count to ten before hitting the post button...

All in all, I think this is a splendid idea.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Currently we have them set to expire after one year.
But we may change that.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
58. Bravo!
Kudos for developing a system that is fair and very reasonable -- and one which empowers DUers.

You have developed a system which treats adults as adults -- and which expects adults to behave as adults.

I am amazed to think that anyone would seriously consider such a reasonable and fair system to be "unfair, biased, fascist, censorious, or Ashcroftian".
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
59. As usual, you are beyond fair
I don't think you ever have to rationalize the way you run this board. That is, don't worry if anyone thinks you are being unduly harsh or draconian. Speaking as someone who has done his fair share of moronic (moranic?) rule-bending, I have NO complaints about something that keeps me down to earth, where I can contribute better.

I welcome this new innovation.

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
61. 30 notifications is too many
I like 25 much better! :evilgrin:

Seriously--when the going gets tough, the tough get going, and this is what you have done. I applaud this approach, Skinner. Whoever thought of this is a frickin' genius.

Dirk
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
62. That seems very fair!
Kudos! :)
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
64. The only problem is that it is TOO easy to
just change username, no ? There should be an IP ban, not just username, after 30 notifications...
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. If you come back, we'll ban you again.
We check IP addresses to spot returned disruptors.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #65
97. awesome!
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
66. This is fantastic.
Thank you.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
68. Good idea
There needs to be an intermediate stage between merely removing someone's post (which the poster may not know about if he or she doesn't check back) and all-out banning.

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
70. good idea but have you also thought of...
letting everyone be a moderator? ie. slashdot

in the sense that everyone - most fair/democratic and effective - can rank/score a post numerically and assign it a category, funny | insightful | rant | etc

then when i come into a thread i can filter the replies by ranking.

i appreciate doing away with constant disrupters but i would even be more appreciative of a way to distingish between the post i click-on as to the value of it's content based on my mood.

treasure hunting is fun when i have lots of time but sometimes i rather not see the rants or the oneliners, etc.

can we do this?

thanks

peace
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. We've considered approaches like this.
And we may do something like this at some point.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. excellent
thanks for the heads up :hi:

peace
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #70
93. I love Slashdot, but...
I think a moderator ranking system would be bad for this place.

When I post to Slashdot I have catch the moderators' attention if I want my post to rise to the rankings most people read at. (My filter is set to three, four, or five, depending how much time I have to waste...)

Many of the tricks people use to catch the moderators' attention are disruptive to the discussion -- it's like a room full of people wearing funny costumes, jumping up and down yelling, "Pick Me! Pick Me!"

I date myself, but Slashdot is like the crowd on the old television game show "Let's Make a Deal." When I have moderator status on Slashdot I feel like Monty Hall selecting from a huge crowd of freaks. The true "insightfuls" are pretty rare, I guess a lot of them don't like to stand next to the huge fat guy with breasts bouncing around in his yellow polka-dot bikini.

Yes, there's a big crowd of freaks here too (I include myself) but there is little incentive for me to put on my chicken suit and yell "Cock-a-doodle-do!".

Whatever I write gets posted where everybody can see it.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
71. is there any way to view deleted posts?
The rules are very clear, but it might be helpful for us to see them in action, without learning the hard way.

You could post the bad posts somewhere, without the name, maybe leave post count up so we could sort out disruptor vs. real DUer.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. You can see your own deleted posts.
You will get a notification as soon as one gets removed. That should be helpful enough.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. whoa, calm down.
It hasn't gone into effect yet.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Actually, it just did. (nt)
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #77
103. Right On Skinner, Enough Is Enough !!!
I like the new system too!

:thumbsup::hippie::thumbsup:
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
79. Praise Jebus! Hallelujah!
I wish we we starting today.

Sounds like a MOST reasonable approach.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. We are starting today.
In fact, the system has been set up since around 2:00PM.
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Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
80. Thanks, Skinner et al
It sounds like a great plan (and VERY generous to the people who seem to have trouble controlling their mouths).

Keep up the good work, and thanks for DU.
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thebeaglehaslanded Donating Member (518 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
81. Excellent plan, though 30 notifications seems too generous.
If one promises and then breaks that promise, should you wait so long to lower the axe? I think even 10 notifications is being generous. But you da man, and this is good!
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. When the "learning period" is over
we may decrease the 30 to something lower. We'll see.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
84. Where's the border between incivility and creative sarcasm?
If one refrains from profanity and yet profers a circumlocutious retort, ala Winston Chuchill refraining from calling someone a liar by stating, "The gentleman is being less than honest", is that permissable?

Where's the demarcation line?

Flowery, grandiloquent and/or dexterous insults are an artform. Are they now forbidden as well?
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. Insults of any kind are forbidden -- as they always have been.
The rules have not changed at all. The only difference now is that you are being held accountable.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
86. Excellent plan, Skinner
Now I won't have so many hidden threads to manage. Thank you.
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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
87. Thank you, Moderators
Sad to say, I think this proposed new action against civility infractions is a good idea. Spirited debate and passion are quite invigorating, but there are people here who are downright antisocial, and make vicious personal attacks over any matter of disagreement. And sadly, no, one doesn't have to be a freeper or a RW wacko to be a jerk. I guess this is a consequence of the anonymous nature of the internet forum, where people think and want to unload upon anyone in order to achieve a feeling of one upmanship. When I have been baited, I have dealt with this with the handy "Ignore" feature, rather than reply to the flame, but it would be nice to be able to put these bullies on notice to review their behavior.

DU is an excellent forum with some insightful participants, but is also a well-designed site with first-rate moderators. You guys do a great job, and I would never second-guess your judgement.
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Crewleader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
90. Thank You All, Adminstration and Moderators!
Your endless time and effort here is very appreciated! :loveya: :hug:
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
91. It needed to happen...
I've said it before - all raging flamefests do is cause divisiveness, rancor, incivility and only serve to aid and abet our enemies. Rarely will they change someone's mind one way or the other. Such threads are worthless.

Given the recent events regarding high-profile endorsements and the coming primaries, this situation was heading from bad to hopeless. We're self-destructing to the bemusement of FreeRepublic and Limbaugh, and to me, that's embarassing.

Thanks, Skinner for addressing this...

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
92. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Oh, the irony
or is it recursive? Getting moderated on a thread about getting moderated...
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
94. The dawn of a new day.
Thanks to all of the administrators.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
96. Works for me. Just like points on a driver's license.
DU Rocks...yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
98. Exceptionally good, thank you so much!!
We deeply appreciate the work and care you put into this idea and it's implementation! :yourock:
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
99. Sounds good.
And the special tombstone idea is hilarious.

Have you designed it yet?
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
101. A couple of things...
1- Will we be able to tell how many deleted messages, (lets call them DU points) a person has. If so, how?

2- Perhaps, in the future, very serious/multiple rule infractions cost you 2 or more 'points'. Some of the stuff I've seen/heard ought to count more then say a mild insult.

I understand that it will probably take a good deal of time to work out the details of this system, it is afterall, a big change.

They call us commies, so its about time someone start ruling with an Iron Fist!
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
104. ? For Skinner/EG
Can someone call a member who believes that Bush LIHOPed or MIHOPed a "nut job" or other insults. How about Dean supporters being called "cult members"?
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Elad ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. When in doubt, hit 'Alert'
We could sit here for weeks answering every single possible hypothetical situation, but the fact is, a lot of the time it depends on context. Group attacks on DU are allowed, personal attacks are not.

So if you see something, just hit 'Alert' - and the moderators will decide.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. This is not a hypothetical situation
it is an actually happening on this site on a regular basis. Honestly if you guys can be straight shooters with this policy and address these concerns I have brought to your attention you will again see donations from me and probably others who have felt an unofficial policy of ridicule has existed on DU towards people like them.

I press the DU admins on these specific problems because they are recuring and effect many of us quite personally. I feel it is appropriate for the DU admins to adress this during this discussion so it will be clear future attacks of this nature will not be tolerated.
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Elad ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #108
123. Like I said, hit 'Alert'
The moderators will decide if the post in question actually breaks the rules or not.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #123
130. Quick question/comment about that
I've personally found that especially regarding the group attacks that are either inflammatory or flame bait sometimes don't get removed when alerted on even though I've read Skinner say they are against the rules. There really seems to be some level of confusion among at least some of the moderators as to what is and against the rules with this particular issue. It's clearly not a case of any of the moderators not being fair. It seems to be a simple case of everyone not being on the same page regarding what it and isn't allowed.

My question is, are the admins and moderators talking about this issue and trying to sort it out so that everyone is on the same page and can be more consistent? If not, will you?

I apologize for sort of harping on this issue, but I feel that this one issue really has to be sorted out for this new system to work as it was intended to.

Thanks.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
107. still in the learning period?
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 07:08 PM by Terwilliger
just checking ;-)
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
109. I agree with others that it's about time
The previous free-for-all *was* censorship... in effect, it censored the thoughtful, serious thinkers by making the atmosphere so repulsive that they removed themselves... censoring their thoughts from the rest of us who were interested.

There are plenty of places for people who like to flame... the 'net is full of slam boards. It's very unfortunate that forum after forum has to learn the hard way that being open to "Freedom of speech" means watching the forum deteriorate until either the boom is lowered, or the forum is abandoned to the trashers. I've seen it before, and I'm glad that it's now not as likely to happen here.

Good work, Admins!

Kanary
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
110. well, it seems to work ok
I'll say goodbye to my DU friends now, since I won't be responding after the next one :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Emperor_Norton_II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
112. This has loads of comic potential
I cannot wait to watch what happens when the masses who don't bother to read announcements start getting tempbans and permbans.

Add to that the feeding frenzy that'll occur when the slightest infraction on civility is called in.

Not to mention the final result of this new age of enforced niceness.

This will be the funniest thing to happen short of locking out the mods and unleashing a horde of freepi into GD.

Please, continue.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
113. I support candidate bashing
It's the nature of politics, and the Republicans do it too - did anyone read FreeRepublic.Com when it was a fight between Bush and McCain, or Buchanan?

Every possible slander, slur, or threat we post on DU from now until the convention won't make any difference - nothing we come up with will be as interesting or vile as what the Republicans will say. We are just inoculating ourselves from it.

I don't think the Green party, or people like me who once in a while like to make idle threats of boycotting the general election, are going to do anything to prevent getting Bush out of office. In the end, we're all on the same side.

I say candidate bashing brings in more people than it scares away. Perhaps just add a "no bashing" forum? Or split GD into "nice" and "rough"? I know you'll crack down after the primary, let us get our say in now. All The Free Speech You Can Stomach!
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. I think you need to read the rules.
This is about the rules. Criticising candidates is not against the rules.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #115
120. okay you're right
The new system seems great, 30 times should be plenty for anyone to get a hint. In my 5000 somethings postings, I think I've had a thread or two deleted and mabye five or so comments locked. I may toe the line but I'm almost always on the right side of it.

So I can't complain about the rules or the enforcement of them, the only thing better would be a moderation system (democracy in action you know).

Did I mention I've given money to DU? There's another check in the mail, keep up the good work guys! Sorry about that whole boycott thing earlier :evilgrin: :bounce: :) :hi:

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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
114. Alright! I got deferred adjudication
"On that day, we will wipe everyone’s slate clean so you can start from zero again."
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
116. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I appreciate the efforts made on our behalf. DU's a wonderful place, but it's been barely recognizable over the last few days. You're the best!
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
118. Thank you! You mods are the best ever: Skinner, Elad, EarlG...
We're lucky to have you.

I have one question on an issue that is becoming very troubling.
Q&A #s 23 & 40 touched on it, but didn't address it completely.

There are some board members that repeatedly, many times a day,
start posts that are slyly posed as questions, but are actually digs
at anyone who is not their candidate. They are almost always locked
because it's obvious that the poster is on a campaign to undermine
other candidates with lots of disruptive nuisance posts.

But your incivility policy, as good as it is, doesn't address
this.

Can you/will you do anything about members who *frequently* start
slyly worded disruptive nuisance posts that are locked?

Thanks again for all the great work you do, and for your
professionalism and excellent judgement.



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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. Members who repeatedly post flame bait
will get warnings from the moderators. These warnings are added to their list of moderator notifications in the same manner that deleted posts are.
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. Thank you Skinner. You've just improved my quality of life imeasureably.
:yourock: :thumbsup: :) :bounce: :party:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
122. Do you think you could have the point system work in a manner similar to..
points on a driver's license? Where over time without offense, old points expire. I don't often get deleted, but I've had a few and since everyone gets upset once in a while, it seems that it would add up.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. Currently they are set to expire after one year. (nt)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. Many in the I/P forum may not survive a year!!
I mean, I'm pretty well behaved and compared to many posting there I don't get all that many posts deleted, but I'm pretty sure I've had close to 30 posts deleted over the past year, not that I've ever bothered with keeping track or anything. And it's an incredibly rare person in the I/P forum who wouldn't end up with posts deleted at some point or another. There are mornings when I vist I/P and go to read a thread that's happened while I've been asleep, and there's a long list of deleted posts that make the discussion impossible to follow. And if everyone gets a warning for their deleted posts, I'm worried the I/P forum might be totally empty this time next year...

Apart from a few small reservations about whether or not there'll be consistency in post deletions, the system seems a pretty good idea, and if it works without emptying DU of most of its regulars, then that's great...

Violet...
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #129
138. Actually, that's kind of the whole point.
Not about the I/P forum specifically, but about people who keep getting posts deleted. We're giving everyone 30 chances to modify their behavior, and we think that is more than enough to figure out what is allowed. If someone refuses to modify their behavior, even if they are a "regular", then it is their own fault that they get the boot.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #138
145. Well I was just targeted by the new system....and in I/P
Where--and I just don't know how else to put this--I responded to a provocation that was directed at someone else by a person that I consider to be a conservative and disruptive poster who just happens to have thousands of posts.

I alerted the post, but also responded to it, and guess that was "my" mistake, since both posts were deleted.

I can already see that I/P is going to become a wasteland.

But I guess, as you suggest, that is the goal.



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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #145
147. Of course you were "targeted" by the new system
I checked your post, and it was a personal attack.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
124. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. LOL getting a message deleted in a thread about
new rules regarding getting a message deleted... I have a feeling we may see a tombstone or two before Christmas :)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
128. Thanks, for all you do. Sounds like
you've hit upon a good system. Here's to not getting one deleted message. :)
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DACT Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
131. A DU credit rating
good
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
132. This is a good system but I have a concern
You seem to be either unwilling or unable to answer the concerns about this cut member stuff. This is not some hypothetical. It is a constant problem. And yes, when you respond to a person with a Dean avitar and say "You Dean people are all cultists" that is every bit the personal insult that "Your post is a lie" is. Especially if the post in question actually is a lie. I fail to see that a system in which the first thing is OK but the second is 1/30th of your way out the door is fair. At the very least we deserve a consistant fair answer to that.

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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #132
139. Read the rules.
Individual attacks -- Illegal
Group attacks -- allowed under certain circumstances.

If someone starts a thread in the GD forum that calls Dean supporters cultists, then we'll delete it under the GD rules, as we have done repeatedly.

But if it's buried in a thread, we are going to look at the context and decide if it should be removed as flame bait.

I have answered the "group attack" question about 50 times in the Ask the Admins forum. I think I have been very clear.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #139
141. I am not entiely clear what constitutes an "Attack"....
Other than in obvious cases of insult-hurling.

In the course of an argument, one might counter that a poerson's argument is illogical, or say, evasive, or say, dishonest.

Spurious. Bizarre. Misinformed. Naive. Inconsistent. Etc.

Each of these words his implications that could be considered an insult, but there needs to be some way to engage a person in a debate or dispute that permits at least SOME strong or clear language to be used.

Any suggestions on how to negotiate these "gray" areas?
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #141
142. Read the rules. They are very clear.
If you attack the person: That's not allowed.
If you attack the idea: That's allowed.

But here's what you need to keep in mind: If you are trying to find the line where you can say rude things but not break the rules, then you are already approaching this with the wrong mindset, and you are going to have problems.

Every member should be participating on DU with the intention of being a positive contributor.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
133. It's Cool By Me!
Thanks for putting so much thought into the forum.
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ermoore Donating Member (474 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
134. Good call.
I think you should ban them after say much fewer infractions. If they're not gonna learn after 15 warnings they're not gonna learn after 25 either. Don't be so soft on 'em.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
135. Quick comment
I do hope that this system will not be understood as meaning that drive-by disruptors will only be suspended and not banned.
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. Don't worry--Admin isn't changing that policy!
Edited on Fri Dec-12-03 07:58 AM by Maeve
Can't find it right now, but in one of these threads it was stated that conservative disruptors will still be shown to the door and given the old tombstone.

on edit--found it! EarlG wrote down in the Lounge thread--
"don't forget this isn't going to replace the way we run things now. Obvious trolls and disruptors will still be dealt with quickly. We're not going to sit around and wait for freepers to get 30 posts deleted before they're nuked automatically"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=523160&mesg_id=523595&page=
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #135
140. We will still ban conservative disruptors the same way we always have.
If we establish that they are conservative disruptors, they get banned immediately. They don't get 30 chances.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #140
151. Just a suggestion if you don't mind-
I was reading how the infractions are set to expire after one year, and that's probably pretty reasonable given the new feature to hide threads. Even so, I wonder if it would be possible to set the infractions to clear after 6 months without an infraction. It just occurs to me that someone who messes up a few times and adjusts their behaior is sort of deserving of a second chance start.:shrug: Just a thought.

Other than that, kudos to you, this is a well thought out system!
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artr2 Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
137. I liberally use ignore and the new thread feature
works wonders - I will probably add back most of the people I have put on ignore after Dean is the nominee
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
143. Actually, Walt Starr's "poop" posts
work pretty well.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
144. Cool. I might be able to
clear my ignore list on jan.1, keeping in the spirit of things.

Now I wish I'd read this thread earlier to see what could POSSIBLY get deleted in a thread like this. LOL!

:toast:
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
146. Thanks
This ought to be interesting, but clearly someone went to a lot of programming trouble to try and make life here better and more hospitable to all.

Thanks again.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
149. Holy Cow! 30 Warnings! You Are A Saint!
Really! That's incredibly generous! There should be NO complaints about this except from lunatics...
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
150. THANK YOU! I believe this to be infinitely fair with...
an extremely generous opportunity for "redemption," as well as to appeal if a poster believes there was an error. While some small few may feel this to be too paternal a step, I DO NOT. I, do not want to waste time with people who intentionally flame but have nothing constructive to offer. It really is no different from the child on the playground, who tries to win their way by bullying and calling names. We have enough of this tactic eminating from the RWers.

Thanks to Skinner and all the other adminis/mods.
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