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zbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:54 PM
Original message
Need help responding to e-mail from wingnut sister.
I think I have seen this lovely missive here before, but couldn't find it on a search. Don't know how I want to respond to this, either point-by-point or by a broader based view, i.e. "do the ends justify the means, even if it includes lying to the American people", including the massive amounts of information regarding the shifting reasons for going to war, the "imminent threat", the ever-elusive WMD, the inevitability of a draft if * is re-elected (she has two sons, ages 21 and 19 who will probably be eligible, although they do have the money to buy their way out), etc.

Here it is:

Subject: Progress In Iraq

SINCE PRESIDENT BUSH DECLARED AN END TO MAJOR COMBAT ON MAY 1:

...the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on active
duty

... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.

...nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

...on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 mega-watts exceeding the
pre-war average.

...all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, as
are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

... by October 1, Coalition forces had rehabbed over 1,500 schools - 500
more than their target.

... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

...all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.

...doctor's salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

...pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons
in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

...the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to
Iraq's children.

...a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000
kilometers of weed-choked canals. They now irrigate tens of thousands of
farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and
women.

...we have restored over three-quarters of pre-war telephone services and
over two-thirds of the potable water production.

... there are 4,900 full-service connections. We expect 50,000 by January
first.

...the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to
cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and
towns.

...95 percent of all pre-war bank customers have service and first-time
customers are opening accounts daily.

... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.

...the central bank is fully independent.

... Iraq has one of the world's most growth-oriented investment and banking
laws.

.. Iraq (has) a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

...satellite dishes are legal.

...foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and
extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for minder's and other
government spies.

.. there is no Ministry of Information.

...there are more than 170 newspapers.

... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

... foreign journalists and everyone else are free to come and go.

...a nation that had not one single element legislative, judicial, or
executive-- of a representative government, does.

...in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad's
first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city
council elected its new chairman.

...today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional
organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.

... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in
Iraq's history, run the day-to-day business of government.

...the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events.
Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen
international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab
League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi
embassies around the world.

...Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.

... for the first time in 35 years, in Kabala thousands of Shiites
celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

...the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large
and small, as part of (a) strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

...Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to his
zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation,
torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games...murdering critics.


...children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with
the government.

...political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are
forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

...millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

...Saudis will hold municipal elections.

... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.

... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a
Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and
for peace.

...Saddam is gone.

... Iraq is free.

NOT BAD FOR AN ADMINISTRATION:
...WITH NO PLAN.
...NO DIRECTION
...WAS GOING TO BE SLAUGHTERED GOING INTO BAGHDAD
...WAS ONLY IN THIS FOR THE OIL.


Any suggestions? Thanks in advance to all the wonderful people here at DU.

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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. for starters
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That is email propaganda making the rounds these days.
Ask HER specifically for any evidence that what the letter claims is true. Asking for proof usually gags up a wingnut.


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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Yes, notice ALL those assertions are unsourced
What is to stop some Freeper from sitting down and just making it up, as they did when they forged Andy Rooney's name in the Propaganda Blast E-Mail they sent around awhile ago.

Don't kid yourselves, folks. Lying Bushevik e-mails are STAPLES of Bushevik Propaganda that I like to call Goebbels v2.0.

If Hitler was alive, he would use e-mails in the exact same way.

And yes, ask your sister for proof of even one thing. She will have NONE!
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ignatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Heck, as long as we are yahooing, scroll down the
highest rated stories and notice 2 more troops dead today, 195 since the Topgun routine Chimpy pulled on May 1 and over 400 dead since the invasion. Add the thousands of Iraqi's killed.

Keep scrolling and read the Iranian attorney's comments who won the peace prize badmouthing a certain country invading and occupying a country who had not attacked them.

Add the none found WMD's, the $87 Billion Congress appropriated last month to be sent, in addition to the $70 billion already spent,and ask her if everything is so goddamned wonderful, why did Bush have to sneak in and out without even saying howdy-do to any Iraqi citizens?

Lies, bullshit and propoganda is the only thing this vile administration is good at.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ask her to send photos from her vacation in lovely Iraq
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curlyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. since we blew up most of the infrastructure
or caused it's decay with years of sanctions, it's mighty fine that we're actualyl fixing some of it up, isn't it?
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. tell her all that's great stuff
ask her for the numbers of WMD found, since she seems to know how many bicycle factories are opening up,
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. First
Saddam is not "gone".

Second, regardless of the questionable nature of these "facts", which you should not believe for 2 seconds by the way, we are going to be occupying that country for generations to come and it will continue to take american lives.

You might also want to mention the 41 million people without health care and how the hundreds of billions going to the war could help them.

Where's Osama?

Oh, and you should stop debating her. It'll hurt your brain.
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tomzee Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. my, my
How quickly they're becoming so...Westernized - they almost seem, so, geez, just like us. Why, in a few months, they'll have those darned scarves off their heads, they'll stop speaking that stupid, incomprehensible language and they'll finally learn how to be consumers. Might take killing a few thousand more, but we'll get there.

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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. Using Israeli Tactics of Fencing
in Iraqi towns - some liberators we are
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Something from a Plaid Adder post earlier
the CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) has now ordered the Iraqi health ministry to stop counting civilian casualties.

I'd throw something in there regarding the deaths of our troops and innocent Iraqis. And then I'd throw in Bush Sr's quote about why he didn't go after Saddam after the first Gulf War. It was an excellent quote from a book of his.

Being the sarcastic person that I am, I'd probably also throw something in there about how I'm so happy that the guy who campaigned against nation-building is living up to his campaign promises so well.
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Papa Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. what worthless tripe
How bout:

There is chaos at nite, you dare not go outside. If you are a woman, you are going to be raped and killed.

There are tons of depleted uranium in Iraq now from our bombs and ammo that will linger around IRAQ and cause severe health problems for, oh, the next 4 billion years or so.

What good is a satellite when there is less electricity in Iraq now than before the war. People have to use generators for reliable power.

Iraq is not free. It's free from Saddam, but it's under what is now called OCCUPATION.

The price of gas is higher now than before the war, and there are shortages of gas. There are lines for gas.

Some irreplaceable items from the Iraqi museum have been destroyed or stolen. Items that are important to all of Humanity.

That email is just so much bullshit.

...pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons
in May to a current total of 12,000 tons. -why was it so low before, and now so high? could it have something to do with the USA and something called an EMBARGO????
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. Just send her this and ask her if it was worth it
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zbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks all. I knew I could count on you to help me out.
I get so much crap from dear ol' sis that I usually just ignore, but I'm tired of ignoring it and really feel the need to respond.
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tomzee Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. a final thought
More to the point of your question about how to respond, you might note that exactly to her point, all of these positives are happening in spite of the fact that there was little, if any, planning. None of that changes the fact that Shrub went into this half-cocked. That's the larger question for us, as a nation, as we look ahead to how we're going to shape our foreign policy in the future and more importantly, how we're going to conduct it. If this all works out, and the verdict is still a long ways off, does that mean that we'll be emboldened to take on ever more risky regime change adventures.
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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. Whenever I hear or read this shit, I just say that it really makes you
wonder why Bush insisted on lying, and lying and lying again about the justification for invading Iraq. Why didn't Bush just say he wanted to use the US military for nation building?

It is a tactical and strategic mistake to even discuss the items on the list of gifts the LordGodBush has bestowed upon his people.

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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. Speaking of that Iraqi battalion, 1/3 have quit.
But I digress. I really could not care less about progress being made in Iraq. My obligation is to hold my government accountable for its actions and the bitter truth is that our administration alienated countries throughout the world and lied to the American people about the reasons for going to war.

Are we citizens or are we dupes? If we are dupes, we'll just pass along emails such as this one. If we are citizens we will hold our government accountable for its actions.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. Ignore it, and ask her
how her kids are doing. Don't get in political fights with your family.
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zbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I know, I know. I should be bigger than to stoop to her level.
BUT.... she knows how I feel (as well as my parents and my other sister), and she still insists on e-mailing us this garbage. It upsets my 74-year-old mother to no end. Said sister forwards all this trash to mom, yet doesn't take the time to e-mail or IM with a quick "how are you doing today". What's interesting is that she was the most liberal of the family when we were younger. Now she is married to a doctor, did the whole social climbing bit and turned into a real dittohead wingnut. In truth, she is just parrotting what she hears from Rush, her husband, her kids and her father-in-law. I'm afraid she lost her brain (and her conscience) somewhere along the line.
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