Some questions and opinions from a lurker...

[Solon]

A couple of things that bug me about some of the posts here that I think should be brought to light, along with a few questions that I hope will be enlightening to me as well as others.

I have questions about patriotism and my observations of possible examples, could someone explain where I have erred?

Since I was born in the U.S. I will use observations in this country so someone can clarify for me what it means. For example, a very popular sentiment in this country is the phrase "Proud to be American", I don't know about you, but I find the phrase, at the very least, stupid. Nine times out of Ten the person saying this is a natural born citizen, so I ask, what the hell did they do to be American. The answer is, of course, nothing; so why are they so proud of doing nothing, it makes no logical sense to me. I could understand the sentiment "Proud to be a Marine" because that implies they accomplished something to get there, but to say you are "Proud to be American" makes as much sense as saying you are "Proud to be White", I find it to be implicitly racist or nationalist take your pick.

Another thing that bugs me is the saying "I love my country". I always wondered what the hell that means, does it mean you love the citizens more than those other 6 billion, the government, or the ideals, or something more specific. I find such a statement to be absurd, for I ask you, can the country love you back? Do you feel the same for the country as you would your family, or friends? I would lay down my life to protect the lives of my family and friends, and for all people, I don't see how people living in my country are worth more than people living in any other.

One other thing I would like to point out is the condescending attitude most Americans have for the world, one example of which is, in another thread about the Cubans on the Ford-boat, a poster pointed out that it was "Yankee" ingenuity that they could build it. I find such an attitude disgusting, its almost as if the poster believed that no one else can invent anything besides Americans or were taught to do so by Americans. I know it seems like splitting hairs but one thing has to go through and that is that LANGUAGE and our use of it matters, it reflects our attitudes to those around us and the reactions we get from others.

To those of you freeps who will automatically jump down my throat for being an "America hater" or "Anti-American", let me point out that I don't think such attitudes are unique to this country, I'm just using it for frame of reference, nor is it the worse when it comes to this. Also, I find that those who would accuse me of hating America to be ludricious, for I find that statement to be as stupid as loving America is, its simply too vague. I love Democratic Ideas and would fight for them in this country as much as I would in any other I was a citizen in, I simply do not think that such ideals are bound to one nation, nor practiced by that one alone.

[alaine]

1. Thanks for expressing those thoughts...

You are in good company, alot of people are sick of the jingoism espoused by the right, when it is really a cover-up that war profiteers and oil barons use to keep themselves in powerful positions where they can influence legislation.

[Solon]

3. I know, I'm disgusted with the war

and everything as well, I was arguing from logic in that post, not politics, but I am disgusted with the current government and wish to see it changed, out with Bush* and the rest of thos damn 'pukes! My problem is that this is not limited to the right or left, it is a universal jingoism that is simply accepted in many circles, I view it in no better light that the illogical crap spewed by the KKK or Neo-Nazis.

[Room101]

5. In this manufactured culture of fear and warped notions of

Patriotism being proud has become a substitute to rational thinking and reason. How many of these so-called patriots have read the patriot’s handbook the soul of our great republic the constitution?


A must read is Chris Hedges: War is a force that gives us meaning. It’s about how nations fall for the myth of war and the jingoism that is the muscle behind it.

Some dude ounce said " just because your not informed does not make me wacko"

Also watch the documentary Manufacturing consent with Noam Chomsky
It will give you insight on the electronic Berlin wall between the masses and the truth.

[Phoenixtongueof fire]

2. So true, so true............

and Thank you, thank you

Too bad the freepers don't have the brains to comprehend that simple message.

[Solon]

11. You know its puzzling to me, the lack of comprehension...

But I view patriotism, nationalism etc. in the same light as racism and general prejudice, I simply do not understand it. These attitudes are all alien to me, it seems totally illogical to hold such preconceptions about the world, and I get both puzzled and offended by them. Its amazing the amount of racism and ignorance you notice when you have a POV like mine. I know people who hate Bush* with a passion and think Native Hawaiians are foreigners! (They look at you funny when you point that out to them too) I grew up with virtually no preconceptions about anybody, and by the time I was exposed to those preconceptions in the media, I learned (blame mom for this) critical thinking skills at an early age. I was never censored as a child except for sexual content in certain movies, (dad's fault, the prude!):) I take everything I learned in school, TV and Books, compare to the real world, and quickly realize what was correct and what was not. I call it common sense even though it seems to be sorely lacking in this country, I guess that's why I am liberal.

[Lorien]

72. I'm with you on this Solon

You articulated the same feelings I've always had very well. My best friend was raised in a military family, and over the years we've had many ongoing discussions about this very topic. He considers himself a "patriot," uses the "proud to be an American" and "America is the greatest Nation on earth" statements frequently, and I kind of don't get it because a.) I find nationalism baffling and a little offensive (for the same reasons you do) and b.) My friend has traveled the world as much as I have. Yes, the constitution and the Bill of Rights are great documents, and I'm lucky that the country of my birth has them, and isn't war torn like Liberia or a host of other countries. I'm lucky also that my country hasn't experienced the kind of poverty, disease and overpopulation that can be found in places like India. But I think England and Switzerland have better public transportation systems. France has a public education system that puts ours to shame, and I like the public access to art and culture that Europeans enjoy. I would prefer to have a health care system like Canada, I really enjoy Canada's cultural diversity too (fantastic restaurants)! There's pros and cons everywhere you go, so no, I don't feel superior because I was born here-I had no choice in the matter, as you've noted. I think it's just human nature (sadly) to have an "us against them" mindset. If you live in Ohio, you believe Michigan is inferior. If you live in Columbus, you think Cleveland is inferior, in fact, other neighborhoods and other schools are all inferior...I guess it's just part of how humanity strengthens it's ego, but it's fairly destructive in the long run, IMHO. If we could view all as equal, and work towards the betterment of mankind, our world would be a very different place-but I seriously doubt if that utopia will ever exist. It's just not in our nature at this point of our evolution.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Hmm great questions. Interesting post.

I have to agree with you on the proud to be an American thing. I'm not terribly proud to be one. I'm glad I am because I have had a great life and still do, but America didn't do it for me. My parents worked their asses off and I took it from there. I am glad that I grew up in a country that wasn't decimated by war so that I could do so comfortably. I guess the only thing I could be nationalistically proud for is the fact that our constitution, no matter how battered and inequal it REALLY is for ALL has made it this long. To that end I am proud of actions I have taken in my life to protect that.

When I say I love my country, I don't equate it so much to the people. If I did I would more often say I love Mexico, because I do! I love Mexicans. Some of the warmest most loving people I have met were in the remote areas of that country. When I say I love my country, I do love the opportunities that have been present in the past and to some degree still are. I love that I have been able to live a great life with ordinary fears but certainly not some of the more extraordinary fears one must confront in some other places in the world.

To your last two paragraphs, I am not surprised by any ignorant hatred people come across at DU anymore. There are a lot of wonderful people who post here who wouldn't make that statement but lately we're getting drowned out by people who would. When confronted with their ignorance they tend to protest with explanatory principles such as not having to be PC.

Anyway, nice post...I'm sure someone will come along and read something you didn't write and react.

BTW. great sig. line

[Maddy McCall]

6. Very thoughtful post...

I enjoyed reading it.

George Orwell warned that "nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. ... By `patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. ... Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."


As for yankee ingenuity, that stems from the same fount as the "protestant work ethic" myth--the belief that there is something exceptional about Americans (WASPs to be precise) as demonstrated by the taming of the wilderness and the founding of the country. Never mind that most of our founders were deist. And never mind that a holocaust of another people was paramount in the wilderness-taming endeavor.


As for Americans building things or being better at it, our cultural superiority complex has caused many problems---just look at the error of showing photos and films of dead Husseins to the Iraqi people, and justifying it with "THOSE people are used to graphic images of death," as if they are savage barbarians in comparison to Americans. This attitude hurts America far more than it helps.

I don't think you are an America hater--I think your questions are valid, and I enjoyed reading it.

[Forkboy]

7. After reading this post

I can say that I wish you would lurk less and post more.

[Maddy McCall]

8. agree.......n/t

:-)

[Solon]

13. I would trust me...

I find the posts on this site to be thoughtful and enlightening, I learn quite a bit just cruising the boards here. I would post more often, except I am sometimes very busy and also happen to be long winded, or typed as it were. :) I have a habit of rambling, and get annoying to the people around me, would not like to have that happen on DU. Also, I find that I don't want to be a "yes man" just to up my post count. I have been lurking on DU for years (3+ I think) and I have to say that it is the best board out of the many I have seen.

[Must_B_Free]

9. "Proud to be American",

I always thought my alma mater's slogan, "We Are Penn State", is the dumbest thing ever!

Isn't being somewhat self evident?

Do we really need to declare that we "are"???

[redeye]

10. You haven't erred...

...patriotism is unfortuantely part of American psyche. Americans have the nasty tendency to be proud to be part of a nation that they think is the best of the world (it isn't but don't confuse them with facts) even though they have no part in what they think makes it great. There's a pretty good short article on that, http://botany1.bio.utk.edu/skeptic/rationallyspeaking/RS03-05-being-proud-of.html">"On Being Proud Of." Europe also has a similar xenophobia, although, as a German has told me, "Germany's patriotic time is over." Europeans think that everyone who's not European is inferior. Americans think that everyone who's not American is nonexistent.

I also agree about the stupidity of saying "I love my country" (last time I started a thread on that in DU, btw, I got flamed). I don't know about the patriotic apologists here who sound too much like evangelists who reassure me that I'm not really an atheist; I, however, don't find anything in the USA to love. Should I love the USA's land? The scenes of Sierra Nevada and California Highway 1 are independent of any social construct. Should I love its borders? Gimme a break. Should I love its people? Americans are the stupidest people in the world, plus I don't see any reason why I should single out Americans and not, say, Malaysians, for love. Should I love its legal structure? American constitutionalism ensures that the system is fit for 1787 but not to 2003. Should I love its leader? Sorry, I don't love clowns. Should I love its government? Ditto. Should I love its "ideals"? No, thanks, I don't love the ideals of abusing the word freedom, caring for image more than for content, and placign the individual in service of the country. Should I love its achievements? That's not loving the USA, that's loving science.

[w4rma]

12. IMHO, patriotism is to fight for the good of your country

and I refuse to give the Orwellian, reich-wing, wave-the-flag and do-what-you-are-told definition of patriotism *any* credibililty. They support nationalism, not patriotism, whatever they might say.
They should be called out on their false definition. Reich-wingers should *not* be told that their patriotism is bad, but instead told that they are practicing nationalism instead of patriotism and nationalism is bad.

Patriotism should be respected and commended. However, one should be wary of *nationalism*. And one should be *very* wary of nationalism disguised as patriotism. Do not confuse the two terms.

I am a patriot and proud of it. I want what is best for America and that does *not* mean blindly following our elected (and unelected) leaders.

[proud patriot]

14. Amen w4rma

You took the words right out of my mouth :D

[w4rma]

18. Thanks, proud patriot!

:)

[Maddy McCall]

15. Orwell a reich-winger???

Reread the post--he is saying that patriotism is grounded in the individual's love of country, whereas nationalism is grounded in a rejection of individuality for national power.

Nationalism, because its goal is power, fears dissent. Patriotism encourages thoughtful dissidence because it knows there's strength in the clashing of ideas.

Nationalism thinks it can win only if others lose. Patriotism doesn't see a zero-sum game but seeks answers that benefit everyone.

Nationalism seeks the comfort of order for the sake of order. Thus, it produces such slogans as "America -- love it or leave it" and "My country right or wrong." Patriotism is comfortable with creative chaos, understanding that freedom and liberty sometimes are messy.

Nationalism wins hearts. Patriotism wins hearts and minds.

Nationalism has discipline. Patriotism has soul.

Nationalism, given its way, is too quick to compromise freedom for security. Patriotism would be more cautious.

(This is from an editorial I read to my students--these conclusions are based on the Orwell essay.)

[w4rma]

16. Orwellian, as in the types of stuff Orwell was warning of (n/t)

[redeye]

20. Why...

...should I love a country? I do what's best for people. I love people who're close to me. Countries are just machines whose raison d'être is to serve the people. There's no point to loving a country, let alone serving it.

[proud patriot]

22. couldn't it be one and the same ?

as in what's best for humanity is what is best for America .

that's how I look at it anyway .

I define it for myself .

[Solon]

24. All things being equal, I would agree...

However, the conflict as I see it is that what is good for the world can be seen by some as bad for America. Part of the problem is the reptilian-brained tribalism that is present in all of us. Humans as a group are extremely short sighted both in the temporal and geographic sense, the problems of the world are bigger than one nation or hemisphere and need to be addressed in a global fashion, regardless of what short-term effect it would have on one nation, even the U.S. Many on DU post about the fact that America and the World has to stop using fossil fuels, to be weaned off them as it were. However, to many in this country and around the world, they see no gain for their nations, so they stick their head in the sand and say its not going to happen. The very survival of our species could be at stake and it will take all of us, not America, or Europe, but the entire world, working together to reach a solution. However, most people would put their nations first, to the detriment of all, for what, Pride? It's ridiculous to jeopardize either your children, or grand-children's future on what amounts to simple tribalism.

[w4rma]

25. You see the gain for America in weaning ourselves off of fossil fuels

I would consider it patriotic for someone, such as yourself, to fight to wean America off of fossil fuels, since that helps America.

IMHO, the problems you speak of aren't with patriotism in general, but with short-sightedness in general.

[Solon]

30. Perpetual Myopia

Both figuratively and literally, but the question remains, that to fight for fossil fuel reduction could hurt America economically at least in the short-term, most people would turn a blind eye to the problems of the future for short-term gain. I only used that as an example, however their are several others that can be brought to the table that would be more extreme and would illustrate the problems that perceived patriotism has as an effect on the world. A good example is nuclear proliferation, the U.S. has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out the entire globe of all organic life on the surface, Russia has roughly the same arsenal. Why is it that, even though such weapons are so horrendous and that the use of them would ensure the extinction of the Human race, that we and the rest of the world (except New Zealand) would even think of stockpiling such a destructive force, or developing and manufacturing more? The same could be said of chemical and biological weapons, I am not comfortable that such flawed beings such as ourselves have such power and yet still cling to such flawed ideologies as nationalism or patriotism. We are lucky we didn't wipe ourselves out yet, what makes us so secure now? A reasonable response would be the dismantling of all weapons of mass destruction world-wide, but it won't happen, all because of the flawed notion that they are neccessary to secure our borders. If any of them are used, the Human race will no longer exist, that is laid out plain and simple. We cling to the most primitive notions about protecting our "tribes" and our "territory" when in reality it could become unneccessary if we would just grow up and realize that the action of one nation should not determine the fate of the entire world. I would have thought that was learned in the past, but I was mistaken, we have not advanced in this area in the past 50,000 years, and its not going to change anytime soon. I remember, soon after 9-11 seeing that website that had all the pictures of those condolances from around the world, and one thing stuck in my mine, a small sign, from Germany if I'm not mistaken, that was placed in the center of a large pile of flowers and American Flags, and it said "God Bless the World" and I thought that it was a much better sentiment than the ones expressed in my own country with all the people singing "God bless America".

[w4rma]

38. maybe now most people would, maybe later most people won't

As to nuclear weapons capabilities, the Cold War born concept of "assured mutual destruction" is the primary stated reason that countries keep nuclear arsenals.

It would be nice if the world wasn't full of ambitious and evil folks, but the world is and at any time one of them could come into power, somewhere, and might want to try to use that power to push other groups of folks around. :shrug:

As to the God Bless America (to hell with everyone else?), that's jingoistic nationalism, IMHO.

[Solon]

40. MAD was insane to put it mildly

The best analogy I can come up with is two people, who for whatever reason, decided to have a duel, so one comes up with a .22 pistol and the other a Rocket Launcher, so the one with the .22 immediatly retrieves a Rocket Launcher himself and now the race is on, with both facing each other down with weapons that get increasingly more destructive as time goes on. Pretty soon both have their fingers on nuclear weapons, sitting on the damn things while thowing faces at each other. Setting off one will destroy the other, so it is deadlocked, with both wanting the absolute destruction of the other, but not at the cost of their own life. Sooner or later, a finger will slip, and then the world pays.

[w4rma]

42. Got a better solution?

I can't think of one. In fact, without MAD, alot of right-wingers in this country would be more than happy to use our nuclear power. And, I'm sure that the same situation exists elsewhere, also.

[Solon]

47. Do you honestly think that MAD would deter them now?

Especially if they had nothing to lose. Think about what India and Pakistan almost did, and rethink that position. You cannot rely on a sane government to bring about wise decisions, even in this country. Particulary where Ideology is involved, think BushI "Nuclear war is winnable."

[w4rma]

48. Got a better solution?

I can't think of one. (Note, this is repeated from my previous post)

[Solon]

54. Not unless somebody creates something along the lines...

of "The Trigger" by Arthur C. Clarke.

(ON EDIT:It's not like I have the answers to everything, but MAD isn't a solution in itself. That's like bleeding someone dry to cure cancer, it may be slow, but it will kill them. A reasonable approach would be to encourage true democracy around the world. Not "imposing" democracy Bush* style and stop supporting despotic regimes to serve our short-term interests, it backfires every time, and now we have to worry about them getting nukes, OH SHIT!!)

[redeye]

26. No, it can't

Making everyone outside the USA a slave to American interests definitely helps the USA but doesn't help humanity.

[w4rma]

28. Should big buisness, multi-national, Cayman Islands-based intrests

be considered American intrests, anymore?

Also, isn't it short-sighted to make the rest of the world angry at America by "making everyone outside the USA a slave"?

[redeye]

31. Did I say big business? Did I say Cayman Islands?

Suppose that all corporatinos overseeign the enslavement of the world's people are owned by the US government and pay all profits to the treasury, which then distributes them to the people in the form of tax cuts or government expenditure (on Americans only, naturally).

Besides, the short-sightednes argument is sophistic because by the same token you can say that selfish and altruistic interests are the same. Not only that, but also military power can keep the slaves enslaved for a pretty long time; think about 1984 and how effectvie totalitarinaism is in that book.

[w4rma]

33. If I am ethical, wouldn't I want my country to act ethically, also?

Is patriotism simply power? Maybe, patriotism is wanting your country to have some moral authority and wisdom to go along with that power?

Would it be patriotic to want my country to fall into totalitarianism? No.

Power isn't everything.

[Solon]

35. I think I understand where redeye is coming from...

Simply put, would you put the interests of the United States ahead of any other nation, no matter the cost? (I'm not talking about the Bush government alone here, nor Iraq, I'm speaking in general).

[w4rma]

39. Yes, but with short and long-term, ethical/moral restraints

Note that those ethical and moral restraints would mean that the "cost" in money/property is less important than the "cost" in lives/health.

[Solon]

44. Interesting, so you would say that to further American...

Interests abroad, you would allow, what could amount to, the deprivement of property to citizens of another nation. You see, that is part of the problem, competing for increasingly scarce natural resources will be the death of the human race. Within a century, we will have to choose, to either cooperate with our fellow humans, or die clinging to our beliefs. Unfortunatly, we are in a zero-sum game right now, whether its fossil fuels or drinkable water, or arable land, soon their will be wars fought for just these resources, (one is being fought now) unless we work together for a peaceful future. I feel that the next century will be even more bloody than the last one, and I fear for our very survival, we must put humans first, national identities second if we are to survive. So called national interests must be put aside if we are to create a sustainable world for our children and their children as well.

[w4rma]

46. Actually, I don't support that and didn't say that I did

I don't consider that ethical/moral. I also don't consider it in America's long-term interests to do that.

[Solon]

50. I think that I made a bad assumption there.

Your saying that you place a higher priority on life rather than property, I agree with that. Let me ask a hypothetical then, if it was in the best interest of the world, should the United States lose its super-power status?

[w4rma]

51. That depends on how our super-power status is used in the future

I think that we, in the U.S., can change our foreign policy for the better, but that is going to require getting the chimp-in-chief* out of office and getting someone in there with good ethics and a brain.

And to get the chimp out of office and get a good replacement, minds throughout the country are going to have to be changed to counter the power of the economic interests who have a strangle hold on our government and country.

[Solon]

56. I definately agree with that...

But, if you like looking at the history of the past century, then even an ethical president and congress will be facing an uphill battle to get the die hard "patriots" to change policy. Even under Carter, the government commited atrocities, what would prevent another "American Holocaust" in the new century?

[w4rma]

59. A more open government and a press willing to investigate

Most Americans have no clue that our armed forces are being used by and for well-connected private economic interests. I think that if they understood what was happening, they'd put a stop to it.

Of course, those same economic interests, own most of the mainstream media outlets and are able to donate, disproportionately, to political campaigns and in favor of political issues. :(

[Solon]

63. We must fight the right...

I agree with you, I do not want the 21st century to end up like the 20th did, an American Century bathed in blood. I want this century to be one that, once Bush* is gone, can be looked at in hindsight without regret. Never give UP!!!

[redeye]

68. Don't redefine words to fit your views

Patriotism is love and support of one's country. It has nothing to do with Orwell's redefinition or with yours; it has more to do with Orwell's definition of nationalism when applied to countries.

And it's not necessarily patriotic to let your country fall into totalitarianism (why, by the way, *your* country and not, say, Mexico?). That all depends on what the leader says. Patriotism means that everything the leader says is true; therefore, under Teddy Roosevelt, patriotism was not totalitarian in the traditional sense, but under Bush, it definitely is.

And just remember that in the long term we're all dead. Life is comprised of a series of presents and short terms, because the long term of today is tomorrow's short term. When you keep sacrificing the present for the future, today for fifty years from now, you end up getting nowhere because that fifty years from now eludes you at the same pace time passes by definition. When you care about tomorrow, it doesn't mean that you care about July 27th, but that today, you care about the 27th, tomorrow you care about the 28th, and so on ad infinitum.

[w4rma]

23. IMHO, one reason is because if you help to build and nurture a country

the country will be more likely to do what's best, in your opinion, for folks close to you and not so close.

[redeye]

27. That's not love

That's utilitarianism. I love my girlfriend not because she does what's best for me, but simply because, well, I love her. I am willing to do a lot of things for her that I think are stupid or outright fascistic when you do them for a country.

Countries are like cars. You need to fuel them with your taxes but never do anything for them except the bare minimum required for them to function properly. When you get emotionally attached to a car, you are sent to a shrink. When you get emotionally attached to a country, you're praised for being a patriot.

[w4rma]

29. I disagree

Can you not love your countrymen? Should you not love the forest trails you love to hike or the city you love to live in?

Also, if one only loves their country and does what they are told, then that it nationalism, not patriotism.

[redeye]

32. Why should I love people...

...just because we happened to be born under the same government? Moreover, Americans are so stupid they only deserve my contempt and pity.

[w4rma]

34. Why should you love people...

...just because you happened to be born from the same mother?

[Solon]

36. interesting response w4rma

Let me take a different perspective here, do you love your countryman more than the people who happen to live outside your borders?

[w4rma]

41. Yes, think extended family, but note that does not mean that

I could care less about folks outside my borders (which brings us back to the point I made about wanting my country to act ethically/morally).

[redeye]

70. And the borders mean what?

They don't mean anything except legally, and my thoughts and feelings have nothing to do with the law.

I don't know about you, but I don't understand why having the same thing written in one's passport under "nationality" makes people the members of an extended family.

[redeye]

69. Friendship

I know friends, my girlfriend, my sister, very well. I come into emotional contact with them, hence I love them. I understand the phenomenon of people hating their parents or siblings very well. There are 300 million Americans, of whom I can say about 7 that I love them, to some degree. I don't have the understanding of individuals required of maybe all Americans, all people in the world, but at most 15. For every person I know enough to love, there are 400 million I don't.

[G_j]

58. yes

sure there are many things that are uniquely American that I love, being a musician I appreciate blues, jazz, r&r and other forms of music developed here. But just using this as an example, I've learned to love music from all over the world. I may have a particular fondness from some cultural forms I was brought up with. Does that make any of it any "better" of course not. There is a wonderfully rich tapestry of arts and culture available to us in this age. I'm thrilled to be able to experience some of it because of modern communications and technology. It all becomes a part of me also, part of my experience. The more I feel like a world citizen, the happier I am.

[Solon]

61. That is one subject I did not touch upon

I was simply talking about the political not artistic side of things. Their are many uniquely American art forms that I like, such as jazz, but I also love other forms not originally from the U.S., and as technology proliferates so to will the realization the human is human and all the rest is bullshit. Celebrate diversity, encourage cooperation.

[G_j]

66. I often see

the world through the eyes of an artist, it's just my nature.


In fact, music in particular has helped break down many barriers in my personal life, both racial and cultural. Well of course, it's often referred to as a common language.

[Solon]

67. That is so true...

People find themselves discovering the world each in thier own unique way. No two ways are the same, and neither are they wrong, it is the discovery that is the best part of living.

[JackSwift]

17. You are the reincarnation of f****** Mark Twain

That was hilarious, insightful, and infuriating! I haven't laughed so hard at the truth since reading Letters from the Earth.

[Solon]

19. He is one of my favorite authors.

I don't believe that I am his reincarnation, I don't have the command of the English language that he did. He was a genius, I would be but a pale comparison to him. I wouldn't mind writing a novel or two, maybe a political book, whatever. Alas, I do not have the patience for such endevours, maybe in a decade or two.

[JackSwift]

21. You are well on your way

You also found a friendly place for these opinions. I for one am proud to be an American, but by that I mean constantly dissenting, striving to be all that the Declaration of Independence set out for us to be. It's a challenge and a lifelong one. The petty jingoism that this country has descended to, and the trashing of public education so that the jingos have no clue how they are offending the process of thinking is probably the worst of it.

[Solon]

37. On a lighter note...

I may view the idea of being proud to be an American as illogical, but I am sure my parents enjoyed making me one! :evilgrin:

[yowzayowzayowza]

43. Question is...

Were your parents acting logically or lovingly?
Is it logical for them to love you despite your flaws?

Sophistry, indeed.

Did I just drop into AnarchyUnderground...

"Moreover, Americans are so stupid they only deserve my contempt and pity."

"Countries are just machines whose raison d'être is to serve the people. There's no point to loving a country, let alone serving it."

Countries are like cars. You need to fuel them with your taxes but never do anything for them except the bare minimum required for them to function properly."

My o my...

[Solon]

45. First off I never said those things...

Second, I know I didn't enter my parents' minds at the time (they were too busy you know :7)

Thirdly, yes they do love me despite my flaws, that was not my argument, nor have I changed now, if you are going to respond to a post, please read the original before commenting.

(ON EDIT: BTW I hate broad generalizations, such as the quotes you gave, they are quickly disproved by the very posters on a forum such as this, many are American after all.)

[yowzayowzayowza]

53. Never said you did.

"Second, I know I didn't enter my parents' minds at the time (they were too busy you know"

No family planning?

On the side of the "illogical to love your country" argument, you said:

"I would lay down my life to protect the lives of my family and friends, and for all people, I don't see how people living in my country are worth more than people living in any other."

Isn't your country a subset of "all people"? Is love a binary operation?

"BTW I hate broad generalizations, such as the quotes you gave, they are quickly disproved by the very posters on a forum such as this, many are American after all.)"

On second thought, I think i'll just run-on. Have a nice day.

[Solon]

60. I have no idea where you would go with this.

"No family planning?"

Why oh why would that even matter, it was to be taken lightly for crying out loud, and yes I was an accident (honeymooner as they call them).

As for my other argument that you quoted, I simply meant that I don't value American lives over the rest of the world, so I would view all individuals around the world as equal, and would do everthing in my power to protect all humans, whether here or abroad. Was that so hard to understand?

[redeye]

71. One can at least try...

...to be guided by reason and not emotion.

Also, it'd be nice if you actually tried to debunk my statements with more than "my oh my."

[Iverson]

49. best pre-coffee response

"Proud to be an American" - Most of the time this is an empty slogan of patriotism. A minority of the time it means that the speaker actually is taking pride in certain qualities that attach to the country, although in those cases "glad to be an American" would be more accurate.

"I love my country." - See above. Your objection is incomplete, since someone may also love ice cream. It is not inevitably the comparative and personal interpretation that you have taken.

"Yankee ingenuity" - This has more to do with an underlying cultural value of rugged individualism than it does the belief that inventors are nowhere else.

I agree with you that language matters. Add context to that. I hope this helps.

[Solon]

52. I think that the disagreements are few and far between.

On the first response, its more of a matter of actions over words, IMHO people should take pride in thier own acclomplishments whether direct (I restored this car) or indirect (My daughter is a doctor), I find it offensive that people would belittle the accomplishments of ancestors and contemporaries just to puff out thier chests.

On the second point, how many people do you know, to use your example, that will fight wars over which flavor of ice cream is better? Or will die to protect their cone? Now do you understand where I am coming from?

On the third point, what if it was replaced with "White ingenuity" or some other qualifier, I'm trying to let you see what the other side would see, a condescending attitude that brings about the "Ugly American" to the rest of the world. Also the culture of "Rugged Individualism" is a myth, the expansion of the country would not have been possible without both cooperation of the settlers and government intervention. (Think Indian Wars, and Homstead Act).

[Iverson]

55. sure

I think that I understand well where you are coming from. However, you asked for explanation, not justification. I have no intention of justifying positions with which I do not agree. Someone else will have to do that.

[Solon]

57. What justifications?

If you looked at the original post, I didn't ask for justification, only correction as you would see it. I would like your opinion on what patriotism is and isn't, nothing more, nothing less.

[dofus]

62. Taking this discussion to a slightly different level,

I, too, am disturbed by the mindless "America, love it or leave it" attitude of some people.

It seems to me that a lot of that sort of thing stems from the very fact that a lot of native born Americans have never travelled overseas. Many have never even visited other parts of this large and diverse nation.

All four of my grandparents came from one particular European country, and I'm quite partial to that country, its cuisine, music, history, and so on. And I have some parts of this country that I prefer to others. When I'm feeling crabby about something or another I'm capable of saying unkind things about various regions or regional stereotypes. But I'm getting ready to take another cross-country jaunt for a summer college program for adults, and I'm looking forward to the drive and to being in another climate for a while.

This entire planet is so huge and wonderful, and it's so terrible what we humans have been doing to each other, as well as the destruction of the very environment in so many places.

Most people here on DU seem to be thoughtful, even when disagreeing with one anothe about some basic ideas. This is one of the things that has given me hope in these last two years.

[Solon]

64. That is one thing that gives me hope...

When someone acknowledges their prejudices, it is encouraging for then they can move on. I don't consider favoring one region to another as stereotyping, I prefer the south myself, only to escape the winters here! (when I say south I mean sub-tropical to tropical, Mexico anyone?)

One thing I really appreciate on this thread is the lack of a flame-fest, even though I knew my subject could cause one, it didn't start yet, and I hope it never does. One thing you learn is to argue with your head, and put a reign in on your emotions. Its hard to start a flame war or continue one, even about a subject you are passionate about, if you avoid emotional outbursts.

[The Lone Liberal]

65. A well stated observation

IMHO those declarations that you have pointed out are knee-jerk without any reasoning on the part of the person mouthing the declaration. Most people do not reason out their believes, rather they rely on metaphors to which they have been introduced, built and accepted. The truth is most people cannot explain what they mean or why they hold any believe.

[Clete]

73. I don't think it's absurd to say I love my country.

A common bumper sticker in the north woods (not being specific here for a reason)is "I love my country, but I fear my government". Those who display this are White Supremists, however, I think the sentiment speaks volumes and I can relate to it with this new fascist version of our government rising on the horizon. Those same people, who are neo-nazis in dogma, probably like our government the way it is now. So my point is that it is possible to be native born, love your country and yet hate the way it is being run.

[Redleg]

74. A thoughtful essay.

I share many of the sentiments you expressed in the post. I often wonder about all this "wearing one's patriotism on one's sleeve." I am convinced that many of the biggest flag-wavers (or flag suckers according to Hunter Thompson) don't really give a hoot about serving this nation in any way.