How about a return to the ideals of the 60's?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

Some things obviously would not work now, but I believe we should return to the spirit of the era, a sense of possibility to counter the defeatism so prevalent today. Don't forget that in the sixties, we were right and they were wrong.

On edit - this is a retort to KensPen's Getting Over the Sixties.

[theivoryqueen]

1. I agree that defeatism is rampant these days

and I am at a loss to understand why my pals and idealistic peers are so easily bent to it. Seems to me that it would be more uplifting to have hope - even in the face of repeated defeats - than to give up entirely. I think hope and determination are characteristic hallmarks of the mentality of the '60's and early '70's - even in the face of treasonous acts like Kent State....

[Nederland]

2. Partly

Don't forget that in the sixties, we were right and they were wrong.

Only if you have a selective memory. Sure, "we" were right about the war, but we were wrong about many many other things.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

9. No flame, but what do you think we were wrong about?

[Nederland]

24. How About

Drug use, free-love, and communal living for starters...

[Screaming Lord Byron]

25. Not for me in particular, but I wouldn't call it 'wrong'

that was from the social revolution, I'm thinking of Civil Rights, Stonewall and Paris '68.

[JailBush]

3. I generally agree, but there are some major obstacles...

Today's younger generation has been brainwashed and spoiled even more so than the 60s generation. Also, the 60s rebellion was inspired largely by some extraordinary music. Today's entertainment industry is very watered down and commercialized. There were dozens, maybe hundreds, of great protest songs in the 60s. How many anti-Bush songs can you name?

I think the masses are capable of revolting, but it will take a special combination of curcumstances - and the planets aren't even close to being properly aligned yet.

[CivilRightsNow]

6. Sigh

I can name HUNDREDS of anti war and antibush songs that have come out since the 60s. But they get no airplay. Because all the baby boomers dropped the friggin ball and sold out to mass consumerism, corporatization and greed. Im so sick of the ex-hippies coming back and saying... oh, bring back the sixties.

Why the heck did you ever let what had been accomplished fall by the wayside anyway? It's like, Nixon got booted out on his ass and you felt you had done your job as a generation.

The younger generation isnt brainwashed, we just dont care for the most part. When the time comes to revolt, we will do it. But enough of getting beaten with sticks and shot with rubber bullets at protest rallies that get no airplay, that dont change a damn thing. I dont know exactly what the boomers expect. You sat us in front of the TV for most our lives cause you had to work your 50 hour work weeks to keep up with the Joneses.. and you fed us ritalin when we acted up because we wanted your time. For dinner, you shoveled our bodies with prepackaged convienence foods.. and then the TV babysat us some more until we went to bed and got shipped back off to watch commercials on channel one the next day and drink more pepsi at school.

The 60s generation armed us with crap. So excuse us if we dont jump on the bandwagons that you guys kept covered in cobwebs in some deep dark pit for 40 years.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

8. Actually I'm 27 myself, so I guess I count as part of the young generation

[Malva Zebrina]

19. Revenge will do it!

get revenge on all those slack off, uncaring and busy parents, eh?

What did those parents have in the thirties,and forties? the fifties?--

an aftermath of a great depression where no one was really economically secure and plenty of people were downright hungry and poor, a war that was actually an extension of the previous war, where many of their sons and daughters, brothers or sisters, were killed as they, especially women, went to work in the munitions factories to keep the war machine going and to win the war (this was BTW, one of the big reasons that women's liberation gained such strength--women became used to bringing home the bacon and did not want to give up this independance), a holocaust in Germany, that was so horrible it was unimaginable-the development of, and the dread of, the "atomic bomb"-threats from the "communists" who had an "atomic bomb" (Castro)every generation has a bone to pick with the previous one because they feel somehow, gypped out of something and actually are longing to go home again, but, you can't go home again, and it is easy to blame the parents, who most likely are dead by now, or babbling away in some nursing home. Imagine what your children will think of you when they have to face paying back the deficit Bush has irresponsibly caused--parents, well meaning, did their best--we are all, after all, not trained, professional parents right off the bat, but only human beings, after all.

[CivilRightsNow]

26. Revenge? How typical.

I said nothing about revenge.

And luckily I have a mom who acknowledges the part that her generation played in this instead of immediately jumping to it's defense and trying to make it sound like all the ones that came before. Our world has changed in ways that previously were not fathomable. She shocked and awed me a few months ago by telling me that she was sorry for what her generation had left us, that she indeed did feel like they had dropped the ball. And that she was scared of the repercussions.

Im not saying I feel gypped. Im not saying woe is me. Im simply saying that I hear so often on these boards all this ideaology.. all this, lets go back to the 60s.. the kids now a days are worthless.. yadda yadda yadda...

Well, adults, this is what you handed us. So, again, dont expect us to look at your example and want to repeat it.

The revolution will not be televised and all that jazz. :)

[starroute]

34. Self-hating Boomers?

My son gave me that "what a crappy world you've handed us" line the other day, and I really jumped on him for it.

We Boomers did not create the current world, which was essentially put into place in the years just after World War II. We fought against it as hard as we could, and we as a generation got our heads bashed in as a result. By 1972, we were burned out, disillusioned, and in many ways disenfranchised from getting ahead in this society. We did not just sit back happily and relax after Watergate -- by 1974, the Sixties mindset was already long gone, and it was all glam-rock and X-rated movies.

It's true that many of the later Boomers (born c. 1956-64) became self-indulgent Yuppies -- but they were never Sixties people. And it's also true that currently prominent political figures among the early Boomers range from establishment moderates to right-wing scum -- but that's because none of the real idealists ever had a chance to succeed.

The real Boomer legacy isn't in anything as visible as politics. It's to be found in gonzo idealists like Richard Stallman, people who have kept working outside the system in a dogged and unrelenting way that may only come to fruition decades from now. There are a lot of people like that on this board, and they deserve your respect and gratitude.

[CivilRightsNow]

51. Heh.

I give respect where it is due.

Not in romanticism.

I know only what people show themselves to be on this board, I can know no more then that. Just because someone gets all poetic and claims that they have done so much, they do not garner my respect.

Give me ideas, not ideals. Give me reality, not illusion and a great white hope. And then, I will respect you. But to continue to hump the 60s and not tell me what you did every other day.. how many times you bought local and didnt succumb to walmart.. how many times you donated your money to charities of your choice instead of feeding the military industrial complex... how many times you skipped that big mac and those hormone laden super chixen breasts... how many times you protested the war on drugs that has locked up and criminalized a whole nation of youth for doing what you did in your youth to be cool and fringe...etc. Then dont tell me that nameless faceless individuals deserve my respect for things I dont even know about them.

What have you done for the world lately? The 60's isnt some free meal pass to the rest of democracy.

That's what all this romanticising is truly teaching us. Do one good deed and that cancels the rest. You say by 74 the 60s mindset was gone.. How was it gone if people didnt change and drop those ideals in pursuit of more lucrative and comfortable ones?

My mom used to teach with Joan Baez at her protest school in SF, she did the commune thing... lived right at the corner of haight and ashbury, with my shoeless hippie father. Volunteered at the free clinic, even lived down by the american river with a group of friends under a parachute. Dropped acid, traveled through Europe, dad was even a rock star for awhile..

Mom and dad found God and they now vote republican because it protects their freedom of religion in some way. They think God is the only thing that can save us now. They arent fundamentalists in a bad sense, but in a true sense of what Christianity really is.. Dad was a street preacher and he travels the world teaching people how the organized form of religion we now have is a crock.

They had a reunion this summer with all the exhippies that lived on the commune and grew their own food and had their own little govt system of checks and balances among themselves.. they recycled, voted their conscience, protested... marched with le leche leagues, etc. You shoulda seen all those lexus's and SUVs. Man, I thought I was at an oil tycoon fundraiser.

They all waxed poetic about the 60s and all the famous folks and music events and street theater... all the protests and youth meetings.. While they wore their sweatshop produced clothes and talked about their new boats, houses, rvs. It was really stirring. Made me see what it had all been about and how much respect and gratitute I should have for them. Cause their actions for the other 40 years of their lives had really supported that enlightenment they had found.

My parents took us all home early and made us listen to Kate Wolf and Judy Collins records.

[JailBush]

22. Hundreds of Anti-Bush Songs?

"Because all the baby boomers dropped the friggin ball and sold out to mass consumerism, corporatization and greed."

True.

"Im so sick of the ex-hippies coming back and saying... oh, bring back the sixties."

Well, remember that not EVERYONE sold out.

"The younger generation isnt brainwashed, we just dont care for the most part."

Not much differnce.

"When the time comes to revolt, we will do it."

Better hurry up; it will be a lot tougher once martial law has been declared.

"But enough of getting beaten with sticks and shot with rubber bullets at protest rallies that get no airplay, that dont change a damn thing."

I'm glad you finally figured that out. Are you ready to run for public office? Oops, I forgot - you don't care.

"I dont know exactly what the boomers expect. You sat us in front of the TV for most our lives cause you had to work your 50 hour work weeks to keep up with the Joneses.. and you fed us ritalin when we acted up because we wanted your time. For dinner, you shoveled our bodies with prepackaged convienence foods.. and then the TV babysat us some more until we went to bed and got shipped back off to watch commercials on channel one the next day and drink more pepsi at school."

Shockingly true. So you can EMPATHIZE with the millions of children who are being subjected to even more horrors in America's public schools - yet most of the politically active young people I've met in Seattle are working for the Education Mafia.

There's no denying you've been screwed. The problem is too many people use that as a cop out. It's YOUR future - emulate Bruce Lee, not Rush Limbaugh.

[CivilRightsNow]

28. Yeah hundreds.

I dont think that not getting caught up in this whole, we are a democracy that can change things.. get up and march and sing kumbaya crap is the same as being brainwashed. And dont get me wrong. I go to the marches, I donate plenty of time to Code Pink and Not in My Name and I participate in organizing student rallies and activites all over the US at college campuses.

I recognize that when the time comes we must have organizers, we must have those with ideas and experience. But I will not fault my fellow brothers and sisters who tell me that they dont feel this is the time, that they feel that the structures must be smashed, not rebuilt from the inside. Yeah, you are right, I dont give a rats ass about running for public office. That sure as hell isnt a way to change things for the people. If I was concerned about lining my pocket or if I had any rich corporate friends, it would be the ticket.

I can definately empathize with the problem of the education mafia. The first 5 years of my college career were spent pursing a degree and credential, only to find such a dismal picture in the public school system and a suffocating management system. This dashed my life long dream to try and make a difference, while my sophmore aged students were reading at a 4th grade level in an affluent suburban school.

See, when I was growing up, those were the people that touched my life... my teachers.. and the lives of many others existing on my same plane. They were our babysitters, our morals givers, and our huggers. So, can I understand why those that are politically active youth would think that maybe education is the way? Yes. They will learn.

heh, we are emulating Bruce Lee opposed to Rush Limbaugh. We aren't out there just a flappin our gums. We are waiting for the right time to strike. I just dont think it is in a way all the older generation calling for peace and love is going to like.

[IrateCitizen]

31. And here's your biggest failing waiting to surface...

We are waiting for the right time to strike. I just dont think it is in a way all the older generation calling for peace and love is going to like.

If you think that by embracing violence, in any form, you will win out over the system -- you're gravely mistaken. There are thousands of years of history to back me up on that as well.

You seem to equate peace and pacifism with weakness. I disagree. Peace and pacifism are anything but weakness. They are strength -- much more than the strength that comes from the point of a gun, which is fleeting at best.

The only way that our society will be transformed in a way that wipes away the cynicism that you express (and that I, despite my best efforts, still share in many ways) will be one that changes the values upon which our society is based. Violence will not help to create a society whose basis is one of compassion and caring -- but will rather reinforce one of selfishness and greed. Strong dominating the weak will remain the order of the day. Nothing will change, and your children will grow up with the same degree of cynicism (if not more) as you are expressing now.

[CivilRightsNow]

35. I said nothing about violence

Although, Im sure that will be exhibited. I think we are fully aware that change cannot be lasting if it comes from that.

Im talking about civil disobediance in massive scales, Im talking about smashing the corporate power structure in ways that were not previously possible. Hitting them in technology, power, supply lines, etc. The advancement of our world has created entirely different forms of "violence". Which will, inevitably, cause quite a bit of problems for everyone. Im sure when bank records and debit cards start going kaput, it will be worse then any violence. We arent just gong to join arms and sway back and forth and sing "We will overcome". It has gotten beyond that.

It is a whole new twist on pacifism. Pacifism exerting intellectual imperatives.

Im not spouting any militant violence theory. Im just suggesting that we will use what we have been equipped with.

Change the values which our society has been based? Just how will we do that? Move towards socialism and anti religion? Like so many on DU seem to think is a path to utopia? This liberal side of compassion and caring? The ones that bash anyone outside of the predetermined, republican light, way of thinking..No drugs, no ecofriendly "crazies" like earth firsters and of course, all the Christians. Just how are we going to force compassion and caring?

What if your ideas are in the minority? It sure seems like they are.

Look at the world. This experiment has failed in legislating morality, yet you want to somehow, do it the right way this time.

[IrateCitizen]

40. OK, OK... it sounds like you're talking about civil disobedience

on a massive scale. And I can dig it. It's just when you talked negatively about "peace and love stuff" I automatically assumed that you were talking of countering force with force.

Change the values which our society has been based? Just how will we do that? Move towards socialism and anti religion? Like so many on DU seem to think is a path to utopia? This liberal side of compassion and caring? The ones that bash anyone outside of the predetermined, republican light, way of thinking..No drugs, no ecofriendly "crazies" like earth firsters and of course, all the Christians. Just how are we going to force compassion and caring?

What if your ideas are in the minority? It sure seems like they are.

Look at the world. This experiment has failed in legislating morality, yet you want to somehow, do it the right way this time.

I said nothing about "legislating morality". What I am talking about is something that has to start small and work its way bigger. It's something that will start with small groups of like-minded people, working within their communities for positive change. As RFK said, it will be like a bunch of stones sending out ripples across a pond -- until those ripples combine their forces into a giant wave that will break down even the highest walls of oppression and injustice.

May I suggest you check out some of the writings of Rabbi Michael Lerner, founder of Tikkun, for a better idea of what I'm talking about. An excellent work of his is The Politics of Meaning, which addresses this very subject. I also wrote an article on this some time ago which you can find here: A Call for Revolution - of the Spirit.

[CivilRightsNow]

45. Indeed. Just with a twist.. :)

Of course Im sure that every generation that rebels thinks they have a twist.. I just feel that we have probably been given alot more technology and resources then generations before. We can mobilize thousands with an email, we can effect millions by taking out a single fiber line.

We have become more diverse and our systems have become more centralized all at once. The govt is made up of people who havent been raised in technology so they do stupid things like outsource important banking information to India. It's all truly just a huge comedy of errors that presents unique dangers. It seems like such a different state of affairs to truly effect change peacefully. We dont have to smash storefronts, or throw bricks.

Your previous post implied a shared morality that must be had.. Im sorry if I misinterpreted it.. and yes, I have read Lerner :) But I hadnt read your article. Thanks for the link.

[blindpig]

36. now I remember why I didn't have children n/t

[CivilRightsNow]

38. Because they might question the world and its constructs?

For shame.
Heaven forbid anyone question what the people in power, whatever the relationship, are doing.

What a great rethuglican value.

[lostnfound]

49. A little hostility, have we? ;-) Someday perhaps -- if you're lucky --

you'll live long enough to recognize that each generation has its own disturbances on this spiral; and that you and your generation will have its own unique perversions of truth and your own original sins to pass on to your cultural descendants.

Well, I can't say that I blame you; I long for much of the 60s even though I was just a bit too young to enjoy them. But I'm just old enough to see the fault within myself, as Shakespeare suggested.

We can't very well lump all the diverse sins of a generation (Ritalin, convenience foods, TVs, selling out to corporatism) into one single hate-able personified group. Even if all of those defects exist in one individual, you can be darn sure that individual had his or her own problems dating back to being a child of McCarthy-era or WW2-damaged parents.

Corporatism is OUR challenge, we the living.. Did you get hit by rubber bullets in Miami? If so, I salute you and admire your courage..

[CivilRightsNow]

54. You guys are too used to flowery words.

I'm really not hostile, heh.. Ive even had to edit out the normal sailor swearing I would do (which is also completely nonhostile) Im more frustrated. I come to DU because I think the people here are usually so insightful and alot have really great, fresh new options. It's just that, the 60's stuff is really just bugging the hell out of me and it's all over the place.

"you'll live long enough to recognize that each generation has its own disturbances on this spiral; and that you and your generation will have its own unique perversions of truth and your own original sins to pass on to your cultural descendants."

I've already acknowledged it.. but the question Im trying to pose is, when will the people stuck in romanticizing the 60s realize it? Arent we supposed to realize issues to change them? That was the first step my momma always taught me. Everyone talks about breaking these cycles, getting the power structure to stop holding us down.. yadda yadda... but when we dont recognize symptoms of problems, I guess Im not understanding how we are supposed to fix them.

We definately cant lump everything together.. just like we cant say the 60s were this magical time of righteousness and true change.. Generalizations meet generalizations in return :)

Corporatism is our challenge, but we are a big dysfunctional melting pot with alot of challenges that must also be addressed. You can' just put a new table cloth on a shattered table and call it new, you gotta look at all the pieces and see where they fit.

I was luckily only grazed. Heh. I thought I was all prepared with my gas mask. I never thought they'd shoot so many of those damn bullets.

I wonder if the little bags of beans that they shoot hurt less? I couldnt even imaging getting hit spot on with a rubber bullet, my bruise is just starting to fade from that ugly yellow.:(

[lostnfound]

58. You're probably right.

That must have been frightening.

Probably many stuck in the 60s won't realize it. They are left behind like little fossils on the beach --worthy but no longer growing. Mostly I suspect the nostalgia is a sense of homelessness and hopelessness, and the failure to recognize that the old ways don't work as well anymore (like the absence of a real media, that you pointed out.) None of us understands how we are supposed to fix them. Some of us are supposed to invent the answers and the methods, and some to implement them, I guess.

I tell my toddler 'life is HARD but that's why you are brave' or 'life is CONFUSING but that's why you have a brain'.. but really it's me that I'm talking to.

[Malva Zebrina]

7. I see a loss of soul in the field of art today

whether it be the visual or the music or the publications. What we have now is what I see as sterility and lack of creativity. Of course when Laura invited the poets and they wanted to write and read war poems, and that was not what she had in mind FOR them, so cancelled, what can we expect? Have you seen this year's White House Xmas card? Totally cold and devoid of any warmth or pleasing effects. A totally , graphic, hard lined, without soul, piece of art work.

[theivoryqueen]

13. very good point re; media influences

and I'd add - the integrity of news media and anchors has declined.

[Malva Zebrina]

4. it is nice to remember but as someone has said

you can't go home again.

Wanting to return to a golden era--a golden age where everything was so much better than it is now, is the hallmark of the conservative, religious extremist movement. Go back to it all and then the country will be perfectly fine, they think. The country has gone to pot in a handbag with all of these digusting displays of sex, feminazis, homosexuals wanting to be married and children having abortions without the consent of their parents, they say, often.

We gotta keep on going forward, but it is nice to every once in a while, revisit that time period.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

12. I don't want to return, but I do want the spirit of the civil rights

movement back. I'm thinking of the attitude of the students in the Sorbonne in 1968 'sous le trottoirs, le plage'. Our generation is defeatist and apathetic, and needs to be roused.

[theivoryqueen]

14. translation of french??

por favore!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

15. Sorry. 'Underneath the pavements, the beach'

It's a slogan environmentalists and anti-globalisation protestors might appreciate, about the crushing of nature by consumerism and industrialism

[redqueen]

5. I'm with you

It's evolution.

America's right and it's democratic / liberal enablers are holding us back.

[Loonman]

10. Free love, drugs, and Woodstock?

Where did that get anybody?


The romanticism of the 60s never fails to astound me.

[msmcghee]

20. I guess you weren't there.

Free love - what that was really about was the realization that the traditional American family as depicted on "Father Knows Best" and "Leave It to Beaver" was an illusion. A bad joke - as we saw our own families struggle through widespread alcolism, adultery, divorce and abuse. We came up with a far more honest approach that accepted our sexuality openly. Like many changes in society there was a downside - as new models were tested. Today, most young people see marriage and family raising as a decision that needs to be made carefully - not something that everyone just does, because. I'd say many millions of more fulfilling lives, especially for women, and many more children born into less disfunctional families has been the result of that.

[CivilRightsNow]

33. That dysfunction has just been traded

For a new one.

I cannot speak of life as a woman in the 70s or prior, but I can speak of a life that is far from fullfilling given the created options of climbing the corporate ladder and giving up up respect of women for brittney spears empowerment.

Most young people dont even believe in the institution of marriage and out of my very large group of mid twenties aged friends, nobody is even considering bringing any children into this world. That's those of us who dont suffer from things like endometriosis that is running rampant in my generation. It's absolutely amazing to me, the number of young women who are afflicted with severe reproductive system disorders that can be linked back to pollutants such as dioxin. And free love and it's destruction of sexual taboo has left us with girls that have no idea of how to use their sexuality, other then a bribe or a manipulation. Or of course, the age old use of our bodies to get the love that we lacked growing up in this enlightened society. Atleast we're having orgasms now, I guess.

[msmcghee]

37. I'm sorry you see life for young women today as . .

. . so unfulfilling.

I guess what we did was give you more choices - to have more control over your life. Before the sixties, women either got married at 19 or 20 to a blue-collar man or went to college to find a mate with better prospects.

The rest got jobs like secretaries and nurses, hoping to eventually run into Mr. Right. Having a husband and children was just about the only legitimate, respected life a woman could hope for. Women gave up their minds, their autonomy and the control of their own bodies to achieve that gold star of approval - from parents, family and society.

The present prediciament always seems worse than the last one - but having seen both up close - I think having choices is far better than not. But having choices does not guarantee success. Not everyone will find fulfillment for a variety of reasons. It could be bad choices or just bad luck.

But having those choices available means that you can make new choices - starting today - to make your life more fulfilling than it is, if you wish. That option was not available to many women before the sixties.

Today, at least you have a fighting chance. You have a long life ahead of you - and it could be wonderfully fulfilling. Every day counts, take control of it.

[CivilRightsNow]

39. I think it is insidious...

That somehow being a mother and wife is unfullfilling. I'd love to feel that this world was stable enough to bring a child into it. I feel incredibly robbed of that.

I dont see life as unfullfilling, persay. But Im sorry, I dont see it as the free utopia of choices that feminists from the 60s portray it as either. It has it's own ups and downs. It all depends on your perspective, I guess. I've got 9 aunts and a Mom that think that they did their daughters a detriment by their support of what feminism has now become. Gotta love that Thanksgiving table discussion. :) Just like any time in history, life is what you make of it. The 60's dont own any monopoly on that creedo.

Listen, Im not attacking. Im just saying that all this back patting is so empty. Yes, good things were done, but as with anything.. it also opened up spaces for bad things to creep into. It didnt create this perfect void. We have more choices, and Im honestly thankful for that. I just wish that along with those choices, we had been a little bit more educated about how to handle them. The feminist movement happened so quickly, considering it's lineage.. that I just dont think some of the correct foundation was laid. And then, it seemed to be nurtured so poorly in the aftermath. My body, my choice. Great. But what about the world at large?

I see so often on these boards, everyone attacking the government, the policy.. yadda yadda... but I dont see alot of people acknowledging their part in it. So, what exactly does that teach those looking for some type of answers, some type of better way?

[msmcghee]

42. CivilRightsNow said ..

"So, what exactly does that teach those looking for some type of answers, some type of better way?"

That you are truly the only person in this world who has your own interests at heart. Others may wish you well, or not, but if you leave it to others to make the best choices for you - you will be dissapointed.

It was always this way - for men as well as women. We just didn't give women much of a chance to do anything about.

[CivilRightsNow]

43. msmcghee said...

"It was always this way - for men as well as women. We just didn't give women much of a chance to do anything about."

Each woman in her own mind could make a cognitive choice on wether she felt kept down or wether she would look at the positives, prior to the 60s. She had chance and choice. Just not the chances and choices that we seem to place so much value on today. The chance to work a 70 hour work week and be independant from a man but dependant upon a system that makes her windex the glass ceiling when she hits it is just one example. The chance to be free with her sexuality and then dealing with the fact that on the reverse, alot of us arent currently taught what an important thing our love, our sex, our bodies are.. what a precious thing they are to give... what mental repercussions can come from giving too freely.

Some would argue that the chances that women had then were greater in moral/ spiritual value, and required far less compromise then the challenges of today.

I do agree that we are truly our own makers and masters, it does reside in our hands and yes, we have to deal with the baggage handed down just like every generation before us did. Im just trying to show you our baggage.

This is my perspective and Im not asking you to agree with it.. only to see that it isnt all flowers and butterflies, that it created a whole new set of problems and challenges that those who had overcome different ones werent prepared to handle. Im not blaming them, they werent omnipotent. I'm just trying to bring a voice of youth to these boards that I feel is severely lacking. Im just sharing my experience.

[msmcghee]

55. You are perceptive and bright.

I like your posts.

All of the oppression that my generation experienced and your generation is now experiencing is the result, directly or indirectly, of a patriarchal culture whose values and morals are a reflection of the need by males to control women's bodies. It is based on male sexual fear. I know that's a radical view - but there is some truth to it if you examine it closely.

The liberal cause is to reverse that domination - not to place female values in control - but to balance our culture so that nurturing and love and cooperation take their rightful place in our laws and customs and daily lives alongside strength and control - and free men from those chains that make their lives so unhappy - so that all our lives can happier and more fulfilling, especially for our children and their's.

In some sense, that's what we all here are fighting for.

[CivilRightsNow]

57. Thank you!

I relate to what you are saying, and I agree. I often just question some of the paths that were taken to reverse that domination and if sometimes we are not our own worst enemies.

So, thank you for baring with me while I question and try to come up with some solution that resonates in my mind in a way that shows me how *I* must act. I cannot simply replicate that which I have no direct knowledge of.

I cant relate to what it was like before the 60s no matter how much I read and how much I get told because I didnt live it. I can imagine it and be outraged by it.. but it is false outrage, in a way. It isnt resonant inside me, causing the passion that it truly needs.

Young feminists must find their niche in today's world in order to carry on the torch. Right now, I fear, we are doing our damnedest to extinguish it.

[maxanne]

44. sounds to me

as if you are attacking, and blaming, CivilRightsNow.

Plenty of us didn't sell out, plenty of us have been here struggling all along - and many of us did it while bringing up ungrateful children. Hell, yes, my generation as a whole dropped the ball, in many respects. I don't hear anything coming out of your keyboard about our successes. I don't hear a word of gratitude for the fact that you went to schools where Title IX meant you had sports equality, or the right to take any class you wanted. So, the feminist movement did a crappy job - well - what are you doing about it besides carping and pointing a finger at us? The women who came after us didn't value what we'd done, took for granted that they had rights, and didn't protect them. The price of female equality is constant vigilence in this patriarchal world.

What I'm hearing from you is that we did a crappy job. What I'm also hearing is that you aren't interested in doing anything about it. Fix it. Change it. Try working with the people you're dismissing so callously. Maybe that's the difference. The activists I know aren't drawing lines on who they will and will not work with.

[CivilRightsNow]

46. sounds to me...

as if you are taking personal experience and blowing it up to encompass the majority. Im sorry, I dont see the majority not selling out. If the majority hadnt sold out.. would we be where we are right now?

Ungrateful children? Because I question and acknowledge issues. See, that's what I see as the greatest problem with that generation is.. you guys hate to hear that you screwed some things up. Very few can deal with it. The young whippersnappers, all questioning authority... how did you guys bring about all that change you've been waxing poetic about in the 60s? You obviously fell in line and exhaulted where your parents vigilance had gotten you.. segregation, patriarchy... etc.

Constant vigilance? Im sorry, but if what has happened with things like Brittney Spears being an icon and magazines like Cosmo being about unreal body images to the extreme.. not to mention some of the articles being worse then the stuff in Hustler... is constant vigilance, let me live blissfully unaware. Do you see what the majority of parents let their children wear out of the house nowadays? Is dressing your little girl like a teenage slut a good thing? Is it vigilant?

Hell, I know my generation is fundamentally flawed, for reasons both within and beyond it's control. Im not sitting here saying the young have it all figured out, but Im also not sitting here romanticizing about the 60s and how much it accomplished while not acknowledging the unique problems that it also created.

You assume I only carp on things and point the finger at an older generation. No, I do the best I can to protect my rights, just as you did. I just try to acknowledge the problems so I can make sure to protect the right things and attack the wrong ones. Code Pink is one of the two organizations I donate a significant amount of time to.

Where am I drawing lines on who I will and wont work with? I dont even know where you got that from. Obviously, you are only hearing what you wish to hear because to hear what Im truly saying, you would have to admit mistakes were made on all sides.

[maxanne]

52. yeah yeah yeah

and your generation hates hearing that you haven't done a blessed thing. You're the ones wearing the slutty clothes, and supporting the artists that show women as bitches and hos in hip hop videos. Most of the people I know under 30 have never voted, and aren't doing a damn thing. I don't see anyone under the age of 40 on my local school board, board of selectmen, or any town committee.

Your mother has apologized to you for the failures of the sixties, and the feminists. I understand that's what you're used to. You just aren't going to get it from this unrepentant old radical.

I'm glad to hear you volunteer. Code Pink is certainly a group worth supporting. Are you doing anything for your town, or your city?

As for where I got the idea you're drawing lines on who you will and will not work with? From reading all your posts on this thread.

[CivilRightsNow]

56. Parents... should parent.

We will get away with what you let us get away with. Where do we get the money from to buy said things when we are under 16? You.

Im not one of the ones wearing slutty clothes, my momma raised me better then that. I respect my body. And If I want to wear something revealing as a 25 year old woman, I do it with taste and dignity.. or in the privacy of my own bedroom ;) And no, I dont support those artists, alot of us, once we get past the impressionable teen and early 20s do not support artists that degrade us. But hell,lady.. Gimme a little time :), Ive only had a real acknowledged adult voice for 7 years now. Given, I blew the ones between 18 and 21.;)

As for the school board stuff, here is my opinion on that. I've got two sisters that are teachers and they are good kind, gentle souls. I've watched the educational system almost break one of them with it's buerocracy. They try very hard to get a voice beyond the classroom, only to be silenced by the old white men in power.

Alot of the people my age arent voting, I will not disagree with you.. and yes, I think they need to be. But alot of them arent voting because they dont feel like enabling the system. They dont feel like it matters and they vote their conscience, they just dont vote party line.. most young people's conscience is not represented in the current options. One of the fantastic things that did get passed down from the 60s is idealism.. and some of us are working as hard as we can to keep the cynicism from destroying it.

Do I do anything for my town or my city? I vote on everything I can and I support my local businesses instead of the conglomerates. That is the best that Ive come up with to do on a local level to effect as much change as this one person is capable of.

I'm sorry Ive given the impression that Im not open to working with people that are trying to further the causes I believe in. That is not the case. And Im sorry that my words come off as so abrasive. That is why I post on these boards, because I acknowledge that I have alot to work on if I want to have an effective voice, and you guys help me target my big turn offs to others and help me to rephrase my point in ways that can be appeal to all. I just get so frustrated by the lack of voice of my generation that Im sure I over do it.

My humble apologies.

[maxanne]

59. hey kid

no need to apologize. I'm a grumpy old radical. ;-) We need to work together.

An important thing to consider is power - and how best to shift power. Right now a lot of old white guys have power. How do we change that? I don't like the direction my party has taken in the last 20 years. How do I change that?

Well, I could become a Green. The sad truth is, though, I live in a state that barely acknowledges a 2 party system. It's going to take decades for Greens to catch on here. My choice is to work from within. My choice is to let my state party know of my dissatisfaction, and work to change it. My choice is also to run for state office. For years in my district, the same guys ran unopposed. I ran in 2002 - and I lost. I'll run again in 2004 - and I have a much greater chance of winning. When I get to the State House I can be a progressive voice - a voice of change - and that shifts the balance of power. And when we shift the balance, the things that matter to us go back on the agenda. And more of us are in a position to affect a permanent and lasting change. I don't mean to make it sound like I'll be the only one - there are plenty of progressives lining up to run for office in 2004.

I'm sorry I was so tough on you. We are, after all, on the same side.

:pals:

[CivilRightsNow]

60. Aww..

:)

I wish you the best of luck. I hope that in 2004 it does happen. But that's another thing, I just have never, in my lifetime, really gotten to see the political system actually work. I mean, Reagan got away with Iran Contra, while Bill Clinton got dragged through the mud over a friggin blowjob. Then, I only got to enjoy Wellstone for a few years and sadly, he is gone too. Then, one of the two times I was able to vote, it was shown to me that it didnt matter what the people wanted, the system had safeguards for that. That to me, makes the concept of working from within totally foreign. When you are my age, you'd rather chuck it all and start over then think you can tackle a mountain of that much crapola.

Now, all Ive got left to give me a belief in the system is good ol' Senator Byrd..Thank God for him. Okay, that isnt entirely fair, Harry Reid was also very inspiring.

And of course, I also think the only way we can make it better is if we do have another party. Right now, it truly feels like a single party system. So, if the democrats want to get a spine and start representing their constituency, great... but if not, I feel like I have to support whatever my conscience guides me to.. even if that means alot of Dems on here will think Im enabling Bush. To me, we are dodging the bullet if I dont vote my conscience and only vote Dem to buy some more time, not because the person running actually represents what the Democratic party stands for. I dont feel I'd be effecting real change. And wouldnt I just be enabling the party as whole to keep up with it's back sliding, republican lite policies?

I just hope the nomination goes to someone I can live with, if it doesnt, Im faced with one hell of a dilemma.

[IrateCitizen]

30. The idea that there are things more important than ME, ME, ME!

THAT is the ideal of the 1960's. What you have bought into is the caricature produced by RWers in order to discredit those who embraced the ideal of the 1960's.

What never fails to astound me is the gullability of some supposedly on the "left" in believing the RW interpretation. While not without its excesses, I would rather have the idealism of the 1960's than the cynicism of the 1970's or the greed of the 1980's and 1990's. There's no romanticism about those periods.

Unless, of course, all you care about is YOU, YOU, YOU.

[msmcghee]

32. Yes, when you stop to think about . .

. . it shows the incredible, pervasive power of memes. They knew if they constantly barrages society with negative associations of liberals as "60's, drug addled, long-haired, free-lovering, anarchists" they could create a powerful revulsion of the left in the minds of many younger Americans.

Now, we can see in some of these posts how those vile memes have been picked up, even in the minds of some who would identify with the values of the left.

[IrateCitizen]

41. And I didn't even live through the 60's!

I wasn't born until 1973. But I at least haven't bought into the RW myths perpetrated about that period as a time of debauchery and immorality -- because I've researched it on my own.

[BurtWorm]

11. My main problem with the 1960s in the US

is that it left the government virtually untouched. If the 1960s had been truly successful, Nixon, the anti-democrat's anti-democrat, would never have been elected. Of course flower power, so to speak, did force the government to end the war (though not until 1973 did the US actually pull out). And it did create lasting movements to alter Americans' lifestyle, in the way they ate, dressed, used fuel, disposed of waaste.

But the 1960s also did nothing to prevent a major disconnect between the people and their government. Somehow, the people became more alienated and the government more removed.

If the spirit of the 1960s were to return to this country today, I would hope it would not move so many to the fringes of participation in the nation's politics, that it would rephrase the famous dictum of the time to "the political is the personal," which would express a new sense of personal investment in the state at large.

[redqueen]

17. You have a great point

The 60's were about disconnecting. This new movement should be about connecting and converting.

When I hear 'spirit of the 60's' I think of the ideals of love and equality, not 'drugs and woodstock and free love' as others might tag it. I think that's right wing spin, actually.

We need not just a civil rights movement, but a human rights movement.

Problem is there are many on both sides who are just too comfortable to want to face how much inequality there is in the world. Easier to just say IGMFU. :(

[Famine]

48. the 60's turned into the 70's

Its true that the U.S. pulled out in 1973 but the war didnt actually end until 1975 when North Vietnam conquered the South and the Khymer Rouge took over Cambodia. Not to mention the followon war between Vietnam and Cambodia. That affected the way a lot of us who were young then felt about what had been accomplished.

[msmcghee]

16. The spirit of the sixties . .

. . that I remember most clearly, was the unquestioned belief that we were right - and they were wrong. There was no equivocation, no leftists were calling on our side to comprimise and just get along.

The RW wore their own ideological mantle but it wasn't as strong as ours. They just wanted to keep control of the status quo. The RW wears that same mantle today - they still wear it in the name of money and power and war - but they have learned to wrap it in strong PR managed, focus group tested ideological words that have populist appeal.

We are fucked if we don't become stronger than their PR firm managed image. We can only do so with honesty and the true idological values of democracy. That's who we are. We must stop apologizing for that. We must call them out as the hypocritical un-American bastards they are - much like Dean and Kerry and Clark and Kucinich are finally doing.

That's the key. They are the un-American destroyers of our values. They are destroying American values at every fall of the gavel in the senate and house. That's the message we need to send - because it's true.

I am a child of the sixties and I will never apologize for that.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

18. You've got it. I don't want to return to the 60's, but I want that spirit

[poskonig]

21. We need ideas, not ideals.

The postmoden left defines itself in terms of what they oppose -- war, racism, pollution, et cetera. We need to put more emphasis on what we are for, in the concrete. It is a matter of relevance, not ideology.

[ACK]

23. Can't forget but must go on...

We cannot be so nostalgic that we stop looking forward and forging new ideas around our common ideals.

The real question is how do you convince the common man that you are on his side.

How do you leverage the 60's legacy and create a movement that move this country forward into the new century?

This is the real question and the real quest we should all be looking towards.

We cannot let our nostalgia for the era cloud our judgement toward some of the policies. Take welfare for example. The working poor hate welfare. Anyone getting paid for work hates the idea of someone else getting a check for doing nothing. Workfare along with business sponsored retraining programs and a bit of childcare support would take care of this. Make the infrastructure stronger, help retrain workers for jobs in their areas, and NOT tick off the common man working for a living. We could have gotten this but no the Repukes help put together a vindictive policy to punish the poor instead. We could have had the workfare policies that Dukakis talked about with re-training and such ... we had the congress and the presidency for awhile.

We could have expanded the medicare program ... nope petty arguements give the unified Repukes the chance to hand over part of the program to big corporations. Great.

We have to come up with the vision. Remember the contract on America that the Repubs used during the Republican Revolution? We need our own manifesto for the future.

Kuicinch may feel too much like Dukakis for my tastes. However, he has something right when he states that some libertarians, reform party, greens and other outside forces in American politics can be wooed to a Dem candidate with a unified vision of America and its future.

Here are set of my core political beliefs. I propose that a platform of change around these ideals could appeal to all of America. The real key is to reclaim the language of debate and find a new progressive populist voice forged around our beliefs.

1. I believe the Government has a duty to regulate the power of
corporations when the corporate interests conflict with public
interests. In a capitalist society you have to work with business interests but you cannot be whores to them. When the rubber meets the road and the public interest is at stake then the citizen's interests much be preserved.

2. I believe that the full protection of the Bill of Rights outlined in the Constitution should not be curtailed. Repeal the Patriot's Act and keep government out of the bedrooms and out of the business of trying to dictate behavior and speech.

3. I believe in a woman's right to choose. It is not the government's place to regulate procreation.

4. I believe that universal healthcare is a moral imperitive and can
benefit both the public and the corporate structure of this country. This can be a great benefit to both the public and business interests in America. Free up the HR departments from having to worry over healthcare and you free up an incredible amount of money into the economy. With that kind of money back into the economy insuring the uninsured with pay huge dividends in increased productivity in the end. I see a single-payer system with plenty of options much like what is available to the feds right now. However, I am open to all options that meet the requirements of universal healthcare.

5. I believe in the seperation of church and state and that public money should not go to fund religious organizations.

6. I believe in the social safety net. I believe that government can
give a hand up and not just a hand out. The real issue is connecting people with jobs in the private sector. The real issue is retraining and getting people to the available jobs in their areas. Moreover, the biggest issue is figuring out how to prevent single moms from having to choose between providing for their families and abandoning their children. A workfare system with a system of available childcare, retraining programs that work with local businesses and job networking systems that focus on the local employeement needs.

7. I believe in proper education funding. Focusing on the schools in the most need is crucial and accountability for performance is important as well. There can be no more unfunded mandates. We must have the guts to put our money where our mouth is. The money has to be connected to results but the idea of results without proper funding is a self-fullfilling prophecy of doom.

8. I believe in morality in foreign policy. Too often, being pragmatic has turned to being opportunistic and bullying. In the end, we always pay for it. We have to frame our actions within the insititution of the UN and embrace our allies. We do not have to take a weak hats in our hand approach but that is not the same as being arrogant and unilateral in our actions. We have to have a policy that understand the role of diplomacy and action.

9. I believe in protecting the environment and this can be done without being proxies for industry and without destroying industry. Any progress toward a cleaner environment has to involve business interests as well as environmental groups. A balanced well thought out approach is the answer here. When the business interests work with government and play fair -- praise them (this is tough for some of us) but you have to give them the chance. This is the noose of a chance that every polluter will have the opportunity to hang themselves on. Play the game or pay big. Enforce the laws on the books with a vengence. Come up with a list of the best companies and the worst and make it a huge public affair. Take down the punks and praise those who try to do right.

10. Fiscal responsibility is key. We have to balance the budget. The borrow and spend Republicans are giving away the future for short term economic gains. We have to repeal the giveaways to the rich. We have to move the country forward toward the goal of a balanced budget. The tax cuts for the working and middle class were warranted but they were a smoke screen for other people in the highest tax brackets who did NOT want to pay their fair share. A total reform of the tax structure, simplification of the rules and the cutting of loopholes for the wealthy are needed immediately.

11. Gun safety laws need to be strengthened but a ban on firearms is
not practical or workable. This is the kind of talk that soothes the hunters and brings out the harsh nuts and exposes them for the idiots they are.

12. Corporate welfare should end. It is not the government's job in a
capitalist society to bail out or give aid to failing corporations. Target the worst of the pork belley giveaways to the richest corporations and make it a reform based media event. Plug this constantly along with the next point.

13. Small business initiatives that promote competition in a free market society is not the same thing as corporate welfare and should endure to promote the ideals of small business owners.

14. I believe in a military strong enough to defend the nation. A two-pronged approach to the military is needed. Weed out waste and give over better benefits to the men in the ranks. We all know there is waste in the current defense budget. This is the only way to cut down defense spending without looking weak. You highlight the cuts as unpatriotic wastes of the taxpayer dollars. You give back at least 50% of all the cuts back to the common soldiers and the vets that have given so much.

15. Independence from non-renewable energy sources should be a national goal with a set of real deadlines. A real energy policy that focuses on getting America away from the dependency on foreign oil and onto the path of using renewable resources is an idea who's time as come. We cannot simply give away more money to energy companies and destroy our national wildlife heritage. That is not the way. Initiatives and grants aimed at promoting new ideas and technologies is the real winning plan. These are the technologies that can put America businesses on top in the long term and preserve our nation's treasured resources.

16. I believe in a worker's right to organize and collectively bargain. Any law that would take away over-time benefits or prevent the rights of workers to collectively bargain must be stopped. The minimum wage must be expanded. Illegal union busting tactics must be stopped. The business of America is business but the core of business is built on the initiative, work, sweat and pride of the American worker.

[RandomKoolzip]

27. That was a great post.

I might not agree with everything on your list, but I must admire your ability to put into words what a democratic ticket must use for their platform. Bravo! VEry articulate.

That's the kind of post we need more of here on DU, not the petty anti-Dean, Anti-Clark, etc, posts clogging up the GD.

[ACK]

29. Thanks

I figured I would get flamed for being too moderate.

I hate all the hating going on too.

[jokerman93]

47. There's no going back -- who would want to but...

But I remember the 60's as a time when many people found community, their strength in their convictions, and in the willingness to think outside the box, whether it was politically, spiritually, sexually -- whatever.

My feeling about this is that in 1964, I doubt anybody was posting opinions on a worldwide digital medium and saying, "Gee things are getting weird, I wish we could make the 60's 'happen'." In those days people were forced to connect in the flesh, person to person, and the idea of social engineering as we now know it, was a science fiction idea.

I think things started to kick in and "the 60's" happened for the very reason that people were connecting and relating more on a level that's difficult to approach these days. True, at no other period in history has any sigle individual had the power of a worldwide communications medium at their fingertips as each of us do -- for information access, distribution and discourse, but at no other time have individuals been so isolated from each other by the conceptual bubble of technology and media.

We have astonishing power now. But I think at the same time, we've been politically, and in some ways spiritually, truncated by the easy isolation that the internet/media culture tends to produce.

My feeling is we've been given the "feel" of connectedness, but have begun to forget that real connectedness is based on a knowledge or direct perception of our poltical and social interdependence -- our relatedness.

I think it would help to start by meeting in person, discussing the issues and our frustrations, using the DU board to relate back to the larger group the kinds of things we've brainstormed about and care about.

A social movement needs to be social. I think it's a matter of getting past the digital screen and purposely reaching out to create a real social network. I believe the ideas, the passion, the poetry, the politics and the radical culture of change would naturally begin to evolve out of it.

Am I suggesting pizza and beer? Yes, as a jumpstart to include the human dimension in the discourse again. DU is a perfect hub for "engineering" a social movement. It's possible. I believe it is.

Anyway, I'm just feeling my way here. Any thoughts? Responses? I Want/need to listen.

Now that I'm back from China, I'm planning on inviting the Bay Area Duers to just come out and get together. I know this has already happened here and other places, but why not try to take it to the next level?

on edit:
numberous typos too numerous to enumerate

[IrateCitizen]

50. Wow. That's all I can say, Jokerman...

True, at no other period in history has any sigle individual had the power of a worldwide communications medium at their fingertips as each of us do -- for information access, distribution and discourse, but at no other time have individuals been so isolated from each other by the conceptual bubble of technology and media.

You REALLY hit the nail on the head with that part. I mean it. This forum is still just another example of it. We form our "community" out here in cyberspace, while many of us fail to create something as meaningful in our own lives. I know that I fall into that category -- and yet, I keep coming back here.... :shrug:

We need to re-establish that sense of community based on real human interaction. But given the "bubble" that so many of us live in right now, it's not an easy thing to establish critical mass on.

[jokerman93]

53. Hey IrateCitizen

Yes! I'm struggling with the same sh*t.

Here's what I see happening out my window: hightech society with its specialized virtual communities (which unintentionally encourage homogeneity in thinking), digital camera phones in every pocket, ubiquitous surveilance, solid social returns for banal aquiescence to comformity, a return to a kind of arbitrary Biblical system of authoritarian morality. I guess everyone knows the litany.

It reminds me of "My Dinner with Andre" where Andre explains to his friend his theory that NY City represents a new kind of prison in which the people are the prisoners as well as guards. Seems like the metaphor is astoundingly accurate for America 2003.

So I guess I'm thinking, what if we started to unplug and meet in each others living rooms, local coffee shops, parks? Then plug back in and add to the new meme of a 21st century progressive culture. Maybe we have to be bold, unplug, and step out.

That's my project for the next year.

And by the way, please stop by sometime and have a beer or a smoke. You're welcome! (Bring groceries!)

:grouphug:

(sorry -- couldn't resist the emoticon thingy.)