"Democrats' missteps creating a waltz for Bush campaign"

[Frodo]

Matthew Miller is a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress

Karl Rove entered the Oval Office and the President looked up.

"Close the door," Bush said, signing some papers. "I'll be with you in a sec."

Rove shut the door and took a seat on the sofa. The President joined him on the sofa opposite. He lit up in a smile.

"Well, Karl, I gotta hand it to you," Bush said.

"It does seem to be working, Mr. President."

"It was important to take out Saddam, tough and costly as it's proving. These idiots who say I did it for political reasons really have no idea what these decisions involve. But I have to say, when you predicted that an ancillary benefit of an Iraqi war would be to split Democrats down the middle and make it likelier they'd nominate someone easily cast as a shrill antiwar peacenik, I never imagined they'd be so crazy."

"Never underestimate the self-destructive power of angry hard-core liberals, sir."

"And with these two big union endorsements now," Bush said, still marveling at the prospect, "it looks like it's actually going to happen. Whatcha got there?" Bush added, noticing the videocassette resting atop Rove's legal pad.

"An early test of some of the advertising themes we'll run. Wanna see?"

"Sure."

Rove popped the video into a TV near the wall. An image of an agitated Howard Dean, sleeves rolled up above his elbows in his trademark pose, appeared on the screen.

"What's with those sleeves?" Bush said. "Nobody rolls their sleeves up that high."

"Sssh," Rove said. "It's starting."

The image froze with Dean's face in a pantomime of rage. A dark minor chord sounded, like the signal in a horror movie when something scary is coming.

"Howard Dean, former governor of Vermont," intoned the voiceover, "- for president?

"The only state with fewer people than Vermont is Wyoming - yet Howard Dean raised taxes on Vermont's best schools in some crazy liberal scheme to make them as bad as other schools."

A graphic reading "Raised Taxes on Schools" floats across the screen.

"Vermont's general fund amounts to less than one day's spending at the Pentagon, yet Howard Dean still handed his successor a budget mess - and now he wants to raise taxes on every American."

A graphic reading "Raise Taxes on Every American" floats by.

"But that's just the start. Howard Dean wants special new rights for gay and lesbian couples.

"And Howard Dean says he's not sure the Iraqi people are better off with Saddam Hussein gone - even though Saddam killed a million Iraqis and tortured millions more.

"Howard Dean... Is he ready to lead America? Is America ready to be led by Howard Dean?"

The camera zooms in tightly on Dean's angry yet goofy visage, then fades to black.

"How big was Arkansas?" Bush asked, a little nervously.

"Four times bigger than Vermont, sir. And Dean is no Clinton."

"You're right, you're right," Bush said, reassured. "Is it really over?"

"The only chance now is if Gephardt wins Iowa. The press will plaster him wall to wall the week after, and he'll be reincarnated as 'Dick Gephardt, Fresh Face.' He's up seven points in the latest poll. It's a risk. We're sending a few of the boys out to see if we can't be - heh, heh - helpful to the democratic process there."

Bush nodded in the direction of the TV.

"Dean's a decent guy - we were governors together," he said. "Ambitious."

"It's not personal, Mr. President."

"Yeah, I know." Bush's smile flashed again. "Well, as someone once said, 'Bring 'em on!' "

The two men laughed quietly, laughter which soon yielded to uninhibited, thigh-slapping guffaws. The Secret Service agents posted outside the Oval Office thought it sounded strangely like a cackle.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a conservative source (as far as I can tell). The second "Dean is a bid mistake" article I've seen today.


Esit - Link (sorry about that) http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/7279805.htm

[La_Serpiente]

1. Link?

Do you have a link?

[Frodo]

7. Sorry about that

I edited the post.


http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/7279805.htm

[helleborient]

2. Link? Reference?

Where is this from?

[janx]

3. What is the source of this?

?

[Walt Starr]

4. As far as I'm concerned, this proves they're scared shitless of Dean

Dean will roll over them.

[blm]

28. Oh, REALLY, Walt? Who are they afraid of?

The media focus on Dean "the Angry Democrat" keeps REAL issues of import off the radar screen.

From my earlier thread:

What would Bush do to keep these men silenced?

John Kerry assembled a team to confront Bush on the issues Rove wants to take to the American people in 2004. National security and the fear of terrorism. No doubt, the last thing Rove needs are experts in those areas speaking out during the general election against Bush and for the Democratic opponent.

Gary Hart, knows more about national security and antiterrorism measures than any national figure. He is the author of the Hart-Rudman report which was delivered to Bush in Jan. 2001 after a 2 1/2 year study commissioned by Clinton. The report wasn't dealt with at all prior to 9-11.

Rand Beers, former National Security Official, knows the inner workings of the Bush team's post 9-11 efforts, of which he observed mostly inertia and incompetence.

Max Cleland, 9-11 commission, knows the Bush team is trying to pull a fast one on the American people by covering up crucial information of dealings that led to 9-11. Has been speaking out to groups across the country, and swinging the AWOLSTICK as a bonus

Gen. William Perry, Clinton's expert on nuclear arms proliferation and N. Korea, knows Bush's failures on the serious Korea issue and his incompetence in dealing with its threat.

Joe Wilson, the man who knows TOO much. Exposed Cheney's office as the source for cooked intelligence reports on Iraq. Also alerted public to treasonous acts by White House in exposing his wife, an undercover CIA agent. Many in intel community aligning with Wilson and his wife against the WH.

The media is loathe to give these men the airtime at this point because they are too damaging to Bush on his perceived strengths. They can afford to ignore them and the substance of their case against Bush because they are selling the American people the "process" of the primary horserace as entertainment. If Kerry were the nominee, the media would have no choice but to feature his spokespeople on the various issues.

Kerry assembled a team to TAKE BUSH DOWN, while some others assembled a team to take Kerry down. Democrats need to take this into consideration. BushInc. NEEDS these men and their message muted.

[qwlauren35]

41. So then the question arises...

Why wouldn't these men be willing to take Bush down no matter who wins the nomination???????????????????????

[blm]

43. You think the intel community is partisan?

The intel community needs to TRUST the candidate implicitly.

Remember when Dean said his supporters are not transferable? What makes you think the intel community will line up with someone they have not built up a trust? Why should they trust someone who is cooperating with Bush and the media so eagerly to keep their message from being heard?

They trust Kerry because he proved his integrity and ability to grasp their issues during his diligent investigations into BCCI and IranContra. Those investigations CONNECT to 9-11 and Iraq. Of course they trust Kerry.

Gary Hart has already come out last May saying that neither Dean or Lieberman can handle foreign policy. He should know. Dean would call him for help. "Gary, what do I do?" Hart doesn't believe ANYONE should run for president without aforehand knowledge and the ability to grasp foreign policy.

[qwlauren35]

40. I wish I could agree...

No, I don't think it proves that at all. I think it proves that Dean has some areas in which he can be made to look completely unworthy of the presidency in the eyes of many people. Dean will have to have answers for these things, because IF he wins the nomination, the attacks will begin 24 hours later.

[mmonk]

5. That was run in our paper

here in Raleigh as well. Miller is the author of "The 2% Solution".

[xultar]

6. OK, give me some analysis on this people, What are you thinking.

This ought to be good!

[bowens43]

8. LOL!

This moron thinks bush would be able to use the word 'ancillary' in a sentence?

[billbuckhead]

22. No, a lot of moderates and independents are scared it will be Dean vs Bush

Why do we have to have such a weak inexperienced candidate from such a small New England state? Why does the next election have to a choice between 2 preppie ex-drunks?

[Frodo]

24. Did Dean have a drinking problem?

I hadn't heard that.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. Dean: "When I drank, I would drink a lot and do outrageous things..."

Dean decided his drinking was a problem and quit

[DemBones DemBones]

35. Interesting quote from that article:

Dean spokesman Jay Carson said that while his candidate violently disagrees with Bush on most things, "He agrees with him that his younger days were his younger days - and he's going to leave it at that."


If I were a candidate and my spokesman made that statement, I'd ask him where he left his brain that day.

[Capn Sunshine]

31. Because when destiny calls, you pick up the phone

no matter how you are portrayed. Especially if you have the unique ability to bring all sorts of previous non voters who don't show up in polling data to the table with you; a sizeable enough chunk of the electorate that neutralizes any fear of the "swing voter". As if MORE people are going to vote for Bush this time.

That's the most ludiorous part of the Dean scares the moderate voter argument:

You think there's 510,000 less voters than last time? You think the fools who bought into the Bush "compassionate conservative " line think it's going great now?

hey, what's that smell? It's coffee. Maybe you should wake up and smell it.

[mmonk]

9. Here's a link

to the author:http://www.twopercentsolution.com

[onecitizen]

10. Would you EXPECT anything..........

else from them? Really? No surprise here.

[Frodo]

11. Them? The author is pretty liberal from what I can tell.

eom.

[Hep]

12. As far as fiction goes

it isn't very good.

[Frodo]

13. Sure, but which part is fiction?

Which parts of the ad(s) could not be run?

Which parts are not damaging?

[Hep]

16. Uh, Frodo?

The story is fiction. None of it has happened.

Fiction: an invented story

So to answer your question, all of it is fiction.

I think it will be funny if Dean wins the nomination and that commercial happens. Will that guy still be the anti-Dean crowd's hero?

[Frodo]

20. "Uh, Hep?"

Duh,

The purpose of the article is to point out how easy it would be for shrub to beat Dean. As part of that, they give some examples of sample ads they could run against Dean.

Which sample is untrue or would be innefective? Is Vermont NOT as big as a single Congressional district? Is he NOT proposing raising taxes on every person who pays federal taxes (and adding millions of people who currently pay no taxes)?

[Hep]

25. YOu must be joking!

So in fairness is this guy going to write little short stories on how Rove will go against the others? What a load.

Why you would even waste time on this kind of tripe is beyond me, let alone pasting it here. We're talking about people who juxtaposed Max Cleeland with Osama. They will go after EVERY candidate. That Dean is singled out is preposterous, and suggests an agenda. I eagerly await the rest of the volumes in this series.

[Bertrand]

32. Dean should be singled out

by those that feel he would be a horrible general election candidate in comparison to others because he is in a position to possibly take the nomination. According to some around here, the first Presidential Election after 9-11 should have the governor from a tiny state with zero foreign policy experience at the top of the ticket. I dont think his resume will ease peoples minds when the GOP points out that he couldnt name how many troops were on active duty on MTP.

[Hep]

36. Dean should be singled out; no Sharpton, Kucinich, et al?

Dean should be singled out by those that feel he would be a horrible general election candidate in comparison to others because he is in a position to possibly take the nomination.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone is welcome who can actually specify HOW this would be the case, other than the fact he's not they guy THEY want to win. Of course, that never happens. Threads begin to die when elaboration is asked for.

And the notion that Dean is the only one succeptible to the mean spirited attacks of the Rove propaganda machine is asinine at best. Which is why, when one reads a piece like the OP gave, one has to wonder what the alterior motive is. As I've said many times before, what Rove might have on Dean is nothing compared to what they will conjure up against all of the candidates.

According to some around here, the first Presidential Election after 9-11 should have the governor from a tiny state with zero foreign policy experience at the top of the ticket.

Some people have the most bizarre standards for what counts as foreign policy experience. As if the duties of a senator or a soldier translate into the duties of a president. Dean has executive experience, is well traveled and well advised. I'm open to exactly what foreign policy experience ANY candidate has, and your definition of precisely what counts.


I dont think his resume will ease peoples minds when the GOP points out that he couldnt name how many troops were on active duty on MTP.

Whatever. The question regarding this is, do YOU find fault with it? Do you think it was some kind of major gaffe? Do you think this is knowledge that every candidate should have had readily available in late June?

[Frodo]

39. Your header makes the argument agains you

Sharpton & Kucinich have ZERO cahnce of getting the nomination. The "vetting" process of settlnig on a nominee has to be these types of articles.

HOW does Dean deal with the question of experiece? Is Gov of a state smaller than dozens of COUNTIES one step down from President?

It isn't that Dean is the only one that the right will attack. The question is whether they start the game with extra ammunition?

[Hep]

47. extra ammunition?

That's laughable! You're talking about a clip compared to a munitions dump. It's laughable. A drop in a swimming pool. Honestly, not one person here has given me any legitimate reason to worry.

Question of experience? What question of experience? The thought that the bar has been set differently since 9/11 remains to be seen, doesn't it? It isn't like we've had a presidential election since then, so... And how far you're willing to move that bar is up to you, but know that I may no taccept where you put it.

Of course, the riught wing argument is that NO ONE running in 2004 has more experience than Bush, so be careful which can of worms you open.

[bearfartinthewoods]

56. i think i will ask admin for a new avitar for the Dean camp

it will save tremendous space in these threads if some of them can just post a picture of an ostrich with it's head stuck in the sand.

[Hep]

59. Gotta love the personal attacks

You forgot to mention that we're also a bunch of idiots. Thanks for the productive dialog.

Your posts in reply to mine are very bipolar. Sometimes you want me to think you're open minded, other times you demonstrate just how open minded you're not. Which is the real you?

[bearfartinthewoods]

66. sorry again Hep

i meant to post that to the original poster.

[Hep]

67. Yeah

That makes it better. Let me know when you get it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

71. sorry.......the evidence is all over the threads

some Dean supporters don't can't will not even discuss the possibility that there may be a problem. if the shoe doesn't fit, then don't try and put it on.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

97. anything to avoid the issue eh? again, i ask..

how do i counter the accurate statement that "Dean will raise the taxes on every taxpaying American" in a manner that will work in
a 30 second tv spot or any of the formats from which most of America gets the info that guides them in the voting both.

it's a killer statement....worse yet, because it's true. how do we counter the truth in a way that joe and jane will accept?

[Hep]

103. Like I said, I've answered the dumb ones

You know, questions that suggest Dean is the only one talking about repealing tax cuts. But Hey, anything for such a fair minded and amicable person such as yourself:

"I will get rid of Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy and replace them with a tax policy that saves EVERYONE money."

Think you can get through that in 30 seconds?

[bearfartinthewoods]

112. well yeah except that's a lie

he isn't talking about only the tax cuts that went to the wealthy.

some of the other candidate's are and that line will work fine....
for THEM.

but try and use it as a defense of Dean and it's a lie. he'll dump the marriage tax which doesn't effect only the rich. the second part is a lie too. a married couple with health care and no kids to educate will not save from his policy..but you know that already don't you?

[Bertrand]

51. Re: Dean should be singled out; no Sharpton, Kucinich, et al

As far as I'm concerned, anyone is welcome who can actually specify HOW this would be the case, other than the fact he's not they guy THEY want to win. Of course, that never happens. Threads begin to die when elaboration is asked for.

And the notion that Dean is the only one succeptible to the mean spirited attacks of the Rove propaganda machine is asinine at best. Which is why, when one reads a piece like the OP gave, one has to wonder what the alterior motive is. As I've said many times before, what Rove might have on Dean is nothing compared to what they will conjure up against all of the candidates.

I agree that the notion of Dean being the only one succeptible to the mean spirited attacks of the Rove propaganda machine is asinine at best, but the notion that Dean is more succeptible to having the negative image created by the GOP play a greater role in the general in comparison to other candidates is a valid concern.

Some people have the most bizarre standards for what counts as foreign policy experience. As if the duties of a senator or a soldier translate into the duties of a president. Dean has executive experience, is well traveled and well advised. I'm open to exactly what foreign policy experience ANY candidate has, and your definition of precisely what counts

Im not offering my standards as to what would make a good president, but a good candidate for the general election. Pointing out the fact that Dennis Kucinich was been in charge of a govt organization responsible for the same amount of people as Howard Dean was is a negative coming into the general. Its not about one issue, but about a build up of negatives that consolidate a perception one has of a person. Obviously i view any of the 9 to be better than bush in pushing a progressive/liberal agenda, but it's about achieving the goal of replacing Bush, not trying to create a civil war within the Democratic Party (especially since party politics are always at the behest of what they view as being the best for the party, so people are attacking the wrong problem if they're trying to advance the idea of progressivism)

Whatever. The question regarding this is, do YOU find fault with it? Do you think it was some kind of major gaffe? Do you think this is knowledge that every candidate should have had readily available in late June?

Yes and No. On the one hand it is totally reasonable not to judge someone based on not knowing the answer to one question, but on the other hand if i were a candidate with no foreign policy backround and my opponents were using that as a campaign issue, i would have taken the effort to learning more about the military and the politics surrounding it so i wouldnt have been in this situation. I hate to agree with Tim Russert, but he's right in saying that it wasnt the same as knowing the ambassador to Rwanda. It's a primary statistic about the military.


Ill come out with a detailed post on why i dont think Dean should get the nomination in the next few days.

[Hep]

57. The subject line

the notion that Dean is more succeptible to having the negative image created by the GOP play a greater role in the general in comparison to other candidates is a valid concern.

You are welcome to concerns of that nature, but I find it purely speculative. I suppose we may or may not find out!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. "Nobody rolls their sleeves up that high"

actually faux populists do. And I really wish he'd stop doing it- it just calls attention to his less than ideal physical proportions.
I often can't believe this guy was groomed on Park Avenue and in Southampton.

[Hep]

19. Is there anything

you don't hate about him? And I thought the attacks were shallow before...

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. He's a doctor. I can support that.

And signing the CU bill was a good thing. I'm at a loss after that.

[Hep]

26. Wow

I'm printing out and framing your post.

[AP]

63. He has to roll his sleeves up that far BECAUSE of his background.

He had to stay in that cheap hotel in Detroit with his staff BECAUSE they need to get away from the images of wealth and privilege, and connection to Wall St, and the enthusiasm for deregulation, and the education plan which guarantees profits for the Wall St banks.

[deminflorida]

15. Yep...that's it exactly.....

Rove, has no problem in framing any of the contenders with any kind of previous political office experience the he way wants to frame them. But, Clark (Career Military) is a different story and scares the crap out of them. I know all the Freepers I hear talking about Clark say his campaign is being orchistrated by the Clinton's for some top-secret, sneaky way to win back the white house in 2004. They link the Arkansas political machine to Clark in this way. Of couse they always become paranoid and start their Clinton bashing whenever they are cornered or can't figure out how to get around an issue. And Believe Me.....Clark is an issue for them right now.

[Mountainman]

17. become paranoid and start their Clinton bashing

I saw that on MTP yesterday. Russert tried to blame Clinton for 9/11 when Clark smacked him down with. "the buck stops here" Clark said that Bush had 8 months to do something with the information he had and didn't do anything with it. Russert had no reply!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. Russert had no reply?

Damn! I would have loved to see GE boy toy squirming like that!

[Frodo]

23. George WIll - from MSN

"Many Democrats, who believe that running against an abrasive tax-raising, antiwar New England liberal is George W. Bush’s dream, consider Dean’s nomination their worst nightmare."


http://www.msnbc.com/news/994180.asp

[Hep]

27. And now it's George Will?

And the motive of the OP is revealed, oddly enough by the OP itself.

[NewJeffCT]

33. Will, a few months back

said that if Dean is half as smart as he thinks he is, he could be a lot of trouble for Bush...

Will has also been critical of the Iraq War and WMD - he said that it would trump the Democrats, especially Dean, if Bush went out and said that he made a bad call and it was a mistake to invade Iraq based on what now looks like bad intelligence, etc, etc.

[Frodo]

37. OP? Is that me?

The original piece was authored by a LIBERAL ok? The fact that other people recognize the same argument just adds weight to it.

If you had actually read Wills piece, he was saying that NOT nominating Dean would be a bigger nightmare than dropping him. But don't let the fact disturb you.

Brush it off all you want, but the point is the same. The only thing that took Kerry off the "dream target - NE liberal" label was Dean getting into the race.

In MANY ways, he's our best candidate (people tend not to elect Presidents from the Senate or House) since he is the only Gvoernor running. But it doesn't change the fact that LOTS of points about Dean are too easy for Bush to attack - and that was the point of this "fiction".

[Hep]

48. Adds weight?

No it doesn't. Allow me to quote Bertrand Russell:

One should respect public opinion insofar as is necessary to avoid starvation and keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond this is voluntary submission to an unnecessary tyranny.

If you want to play it, go right ahead. I refuse to believe that Public Opinion is that closed off to reality.

If you want a D to win, whether you are a famous author or some schmo posting in a cubicle somewhere, don't waste your time making up this kind of shit. Start working out how you're going to fight it.

[Frodo]

54. Bertrand Russell run for lots of public office?

Not caring about public opinion is a recipe for political disaster. But that seems to be what Dean's supporters are looking for?

"Start working out how you're going to fight it." is my purpose behind the post. If this guy is the nominee - we need to be ready for these easy shots.

[Hep]

60. Get it right!

Not caring about public opinion is a recipe for political disaster. But that seems to be what Dean's supporters are looking for?

Is this just you saying what you hope the case is? It doesn't reflect a lot of serious thought on the issue, and it's like pulling teeth having to clear so many people up on what should be the simplest of ideas. We care about public opinion. We're just not going to let it be driven anbd dictated by the media and mean spirited opposition groups.

If this guy is the nominee - we need to be ready for these easy shots.

Guess what. Dean supporters have been fighting BULLSHIT characterizations and misleading propaganda for months. No need to wory about us. We've been putting up with the BS and gaining ground since day one.

[Frodo]

73. No, they haven't.

They've been dealing with other democrats fighting for the primary voter BASE. They have NOT been dealing with what Bush will send their way. Your responses here have shown that you haven't given it more than the first thought because you keep dodging the points.

[bearfartinthewoods]

61. and from there it's just a hop and a skip to the threads asking

if some of us are only happy when we are angry.

go ahead and flame me but i have to ask if, for some people, this thing has become more about winning the primary than it has been to win the general. they are so invested in their investment that they have closed themselves to any negatives that are surfacing.

so ...they stick like glue to a man who is piling up negatives faster than you can chant 'you have the power'. which pretty much guarantees they will have lots to be angry about for four more years and will be very very happy.

[Hep]

64. You have yet

to give ANY specific information about all of these negatives you claim exist.

I'm open to any negatives you have that aren't based on selective interpretation, fantasy, or plain old lies. Oh, and this is the part where you make your mean spirited Ostrich claim.

[bearfartinthewoods]

68. how about dealing with the points laid out in the fiction?

especially the one about raising taxes on every American?

[Hep]

69. Raising taxes on every american

Wow, where do I hear that talking point? From YOU and from Rush. Nice company you're keeping in your Dean opposition.

Yes, BEARFARTINTHEWOODS, if that IS your real name, his entire fiscal policy can be summed up with that one sentence. And all this time I was under the impression that only the RIGHT WING was this Disdainful of nuance.

Ask me a serious question, not a fictional or oversimplified question. Ask mea REAL question, an ADULT question, a WELL THOUGHT OUT question.

Then you can just go back to insulting me when you have no response to my answer. Or you could just insult me now. You know you want to.

[Frodo]

74. Dodge again.

No answer - dodge left.

Here's your question:

Who's the last Presidential candidate to openly advocate global tax increases?

Who is the last one who won?

[Hep]

78. Global tax increases?

A president can affect taxes in other countries?

Again, you're simplifying things a bit aren't you? Global Tax Increases? Jesus, you don't even realize how Bush you sound right now.

[Frodo]

80. Boy, you just don't get it.

Everyone who pays federal taxes will pay more. And millions who pay NO federal taxes will be added back in. "Can't deal with it? Spin" THAT's "sounding Bush".

Which was my point from the last. You CAN deal with other Dem candidates by saying "you sound like Bush". I promise you it won't work when it IS Bush.

[Hep]

83. I can deal just fine

When Dean repeals the tax cut, I benefit.

But YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT. Be honest. I'd love for you to show me how detailed your knowledge of Dean's tax policy is, or whether you read about it on Kerry or Kucinich websites.

Dean has said it again and again, it's amazing I have to repeat it. People will trade their tax cuts for a better econpomy, health care, and education for their kids, among many other things. Becaus ein the end, where I live, Bush tax cuts = a net LOSS of money from citizens of my state. They know it. Why this escapes DEMOCRATS is way beyond me.

[Frodo]

86. A detailed knowledge of his tax policy? That's funny

You aren't explaing his tax policy in your post.

His entire "tax policy" is "repeal Bush's cuts"

The rest is health care policy ot education policy. NOT tax policy.

[bearfartinthewoods]

91. and just try fitting that on a bumpersticker or in a 30 second tv spot

yes...you will have to pay more income tax but....

no one will listen to the 'but'.

and what appeal does it hold for people who have healthcare and no kids to educate? why should they vote for someone with a "plan" that will take money from their pocket and offer nothing tangible in return.

[Frodo]

92. You're preaching to the choir Fart.

I expect Dean to be the nominee (though these things often change when the primary season hits us - see "Clinton"), and want to be ready for what we will run into.

"It isn't a problem - I can't hear you nah nah nah nah" is all I get back.

[Hep]

95. Whoa

Come up with something resembling a well thought out argument and you'll get something in return. Expecting people to reply to your claims that Dean's tax policy is nothing more than raising everyone's taxes wasn't something I expected until AFTER the primaries. But whatever side YOU want to take with your arguments is fine by me. it's your soul.

[Frodo]

98. Pay attention.

"Tax policy" is "who pays what in taxes" it has NOTHING to do with how you spend it.

Dean's tax policy IS nothing but "repeal Bush's tax cuts". That DOES "raise everyone's taxes" (except some people who pay no federal income tax - but even millions of THEM).

"MY side" is pretty straignforward. We fought the cuts as "70% (or whatever) of the cuts go to the riches 1% of Americans". Well, were we telling the truth? If so, then you should be able to get 70% of the cash back without raising taxes on ANYONE except the riches among us.

Juggle a few figures and slow down paying off the debt and you get everything you want WITHOUT turning off any of the voters (at least none of the ones who vote for US).

I already HAVE healthcare AND my kids will get a good education. I'm saving $2500-$3000 per year (and I'm NOT "rich"). I'm not voting for shrub anyway, but if I was "undecided"? how are you selling ME?

[Hep]

104. Heres the thing

I'm not after YOU. You'll vote for Dean if he wins the primary and there's no way you're voting for Dean in the primary. So why would you expect me to sell YOU on anything? Other people in your situation are different. They're objective.

If they're liberals, they've already subscribed to the notion that jhelping the people who need it most helps everyone in the end, or they would be registered Republicans. So the argument is not hard to make to them. Even though they have health care, they recognize the value of EVERYONE having health care. And even though they can send their kids to good schools, they know that our community is served best by providing good education.

If they're against public school and universal health care, they're not voting for any D and aren't worth pursuing. there are enoug people who subscribe to our idealogy that need to get out and vote. It is that group that I will appeal to in many different ways. Most of those people already know Bush's tax cuts suck. And if they're like me, they got nothing from the middle class tax cut either.

And frankly, we're getting a little sick of the kow towing and bargaining that D's in congress have been doing with te Bush administration. For instance, "What if we made it 250 million instead?"

[bearfartinthewoods]

99. please point to any place where i claim

"Dean's tax policy is nothing more than raising everyone's taxes "

or else you could apologize for trying to put words in my mouth.

[Hep]

105. Take a look in the thread

I don't see you making any more elaborate arguments than that. I see you smugly giggling with your pal Frodo over it.

But for the record, say it for the record. You don't believe this? You may talk amongst yourselves before answering.

[bearfartinthewoods]

114. you can spin all you want and try and make this about me

but the point is Dean and how we all will have to deal with his plan to raise taxes on every taxpaying American.

btw...i understand the plan. i just don't have any confidence that he can pull it off, considering that he'll likely be working with a pubbie house and senate full of people who will remember he said he'd make them scurry like coakroaches from a flashlight.

yep...he's a sure bet to pull of his entire plan. </sarcasm>

plus, that still doesn't offer anything to the people who will lose their marriage tax credit and have healthcare they are happy with and no kids to educate.

[bearfartinthewoods]

100. you are right of course.

the hard case koolaid crowd is already around the bend i guess.

i keep hoping i can make the undecideds think twice before picking up the cup. do me a favor though? please don't make Dean as nominee a forgone conclusion. i still have hope. we all need hope.

[Hep]

108. Oh so now

I'm hard case koolaid crowd?

That's great. Really nice.

[bearfartinthewoods]

115. if the shoe doesn't fit, don't try and put it on

[Hep]

94. Yeah, because that's what we need

Political discourse carried out on bumpers.

I have health care and no kids to educate. And I'm smart enough to realize that providing those things makes EVERYONE better off. Not sure why you didn't get the memo.

[Hep]

93. Is that what you want?

So your problem is that you don't understand his policy and need me to clarify it?Interesting since you seem to have it all wrapped up in a Rovian Bow.

His entire "tax policy" is "repeal Bush's cuts"

Really? Thats how you sum it up? Good that you did your research.

[bearfartinthewoods]

75. see...this is what i mean.

you ask for one specific issue for us to discuss,

i give you one from the article and how do you respond?

in true to form fashion, by attacking me.

Dean has said he will cancel out the bush tax cuts which will raise the income tax of every tax paying American, plus a few who didn't have to pay taxes this year. which part of this do you dispute?

[Hep]

79. LOL

This is so great! You post like you're in FAVOR of Bush's tax cuts! Like you haven't been here a hundred times before.

Hint: I don't think it looks good for you to still feign ignorance about the appeals of Dean's fiscal policy after being cleared up on it on pretty much a weekly basis for a couple of months now.

Yes, dean will repeal Bush's tax cuts. And in return he offers healthcare, education, job training, and a more sensible and fair tax policy, including a simplified tax code that will result in m,any americans not having to fill out paperwork.

Hell, most people I know would give up bush tax cuts to not have to file taxes anymore, let alone the health care and everything else.

Like I said. You have NOTHING specific. All you can trot out is "Dean will raise everyone's taxes!" You are accepting the language of the right wing. Like using terms such as Death Tax and Partial Birth Abortion, you're buying right into their game, saying that getting rid of Bush's tax cuts=tax increases=BAD.

Instead of parroting the right wing mantra, why not start working out how you are going to counter criticism of YOUR GUY's policies. it's just insane.

Either way, you are not showing any interest in meaniungful debate over these issues. That, or I just can't reduce complex issues into single sentences, leaps of logical faith, and BAD interpretation.

[Frodo]

82. Hurray! An answer.

It only took a couple dozen requests.

Now count the words in your response vs "Dean want to raise taxes for every american - even some poor families". Which fits in a sound-byte world?

You're begging for specifics? They dn't sell as well as ten second bites.

[Hep]

84. LOL

And I still await a REASONED question about Dean. I guess I'll wait until I die.

Count the words! LOL! You're so funny! I never stop being surprised at how stupid you think people are. Simply amazing. You think you can get votes by being condescending. Good luck with that.

[Frodo]

88. You haven't been following politics very long. Have you?

If you think you get to take out an infomercial every time your opponent uses ten seconds to hit you...

Your ten second reponse is "Yes, I'm going to raise your taxes - BUT you'll be MUCH better off that way" ???

I seem to remember another candidate that tried to sell that. He's probably selling pencils on the street today.

Change it to "I'm going to get rid of the tax cuts for the rich and give YOU THIS." and all you lose are votes you never had. Leave his policy alone and everyone KNOWS what they give up, but no way to "score" what they GET.

[Hep]

96. I've followed politics long enough

to know that you don't win by suggesting that no one pays attention. The thing is this. I'm prepared to take this fight to the streets. I'd love for you to let me know when you're done with the simplifications and are ready to fight the actual battle.

When Dean wins, will you still be quoting the right wing arguments, or will you come around?

[Frodo]

102. If you can't deal with the simplifications...

... you never get to fight the "actual battle".

"When Dean wins" the primary - I won't be asking the same questions. I'll be working with everyone else here trying to come up with an answer you guys have been incapable of coming up with (which IS the purpose of this thread - since I think he almost HAS won the primary).

"When Dean wins" the general election? We won't have to deal with THAT if we never get past THIS - will we?

[Hep]

109. Unbelievable!

Whatever. I'm sorry. I can't continue this conversation. I can't have fruitful discussion with anyone who has given up. If you've already resolved yourself to fighting this battle with bumper stickers, we're just on different levels. Forgive me if I don't reply to you again.

[Frodo]

119. You're forgiven. You're also wrong.

Given up? Heck I haven't gotten started yet. We've just started with ONE issue. I'm trying to determine how do deal with the things that will come up in general election and you're spinning that they aren't issues. If you can't deal with Democrats asking honest questions you are LOST in the general election. These are legitimate policy discussion.

I'm NOT anti-Dean (read my posts on the Kucinich threads) and YOU are ignoring people who are going to end up being on your side in just a few months.

I'm not particularly pleased with our current slate, but I DO believe that Dean may be the most "qualified" (not necessarily "electable"). I don't agree with all of his positions, but that is secondary to his character/resume. So BACK THE HECK UP and stop treating me like I'm some Kucinich supporter trying to get your goat. You have NOT given a reply that would play in a debate next fall. And I don't thinkt you are the only one. Taxes will be THE issue next year (what has happened to the economy, and how does the bush plan bear responsibility/credit) and I can't find a "position" line on Dean's website dealing with it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

126. of course you don't suggested it..that would be foolish

but to fail to acknowledge it is equally foolish. you know how many don't vote. just above that strata is the group who vote based on what they learn from 30second spots on tv during the two weeks prior
to the election. that two weeks will be filed with bush spots such as laid out in the fiction.

Dean will raise your taxes.
Dean will raise your taxes.
Dean will raise your taxes.
Dean will raise your taxes.

if there is a counter ad...lay it out for me.

[bearfartinthewoods]

87. i haven't been 'here' a hundred times before

in fact i don't think that i have never discussed the issue of how to counteract the negitives on Dean's plan to raise taxes even once. i have mentioned it and asked for input but all i get nothing useful in reply.

this is just another old standard in the Dean suporter's handbook.

call them a freeper
accuse them of doing rove's work
claim any issue has already been 'dealt with' a hundred times

anything but answer the question

Dean has said he will cancel out the bush tax cuts which will raise the income tax of every tax paying American, plus a few who didn't have to pay taxes this year. which part of this do you dispute?

how do we distill his "complex economic plan' into something to counter Dean will raise the taxes of every American"
give me the sound bite..show me the bumpersticker..that counters/explains.

on second thought don't bother. you have already illustrated the depth of your willingness to actually have a discussion. there are plenty of brick walls around here that i can talk to. have a nice evening.

[Hep]

101. I've answered the stupid questions

I'm still waiting for a good one.

Strategies for how Dean will counteract the negative campaigning have been posted in numerous threads on this forum. Seriously, I have yet to see any argument that compells me to think Dean can't handle it the same way he's handled lies and misleading innuendo from D's. After all, he has skyrocketed in the last 10 months. So it isn't like your tactic has been working on a broad scale.

[Frodo]

107. Skyrocketed?

What does he have? 17%? Of the Democratic Primary vote?.

You realize that that works out to about 3% of the electorate? We're trying to talk about what sells nationally. "Run left in the primary - then run to the middle" is great policy. As long as you use rhetoric... NOT firm proposals that can be used against you later.

By the way... I can't find a "Tax policy" section on his website. Does he not think it sells well?

[Hep]

110. Looked really hard, did you?

Governor Dean will make fundamental reform of the tax system one of his first priorities. He will crack down on tax shelter promoters and their clients He will pursue actions to impose hefty fines and bar further practice before government agencies by lawyers and accountants who certify abusive tax shelters. President Bush’s own tax commissioner testified that the IRS lacked sufficient resources to collect $30 billion in known unpaid taxes. The Governor will provide the Internal Revenue Service with the budget it needs to do its job.

The Dean economic program will strive for greater tax fairness for middle class working families. Closing corporate tax loopholes will help shift some of the burden off the shoulders of individuals. Ending unfair tax preferences will raise additional revenue to reduce the deficit and help set the federal budget on the road to balance.

and

For most Americans, the days leading up to April 15th are filled with joyless paperwork, calculating their annual income taxes. The Governor will work to simplify the tax system, by reducing its complexity and eliminating many of the duplicative reporting requirements that burden small businesses. He will move the US tax system into the 21st century by creating a formless tax filing system.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_economy_reclaimingtheamericandream

And

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_economy_eitc_comment

And yes, skyrocketed. Even the most closed minded of Dean critics knows that. They constantly whine about how he gets all the attention. Well, raise some money and some supporters who PROMOTE their candidate, and you'll get some attention too.

[Frodo]

121. Skyrocketed? II - The sequel

Now you are starting to look like you live in a dream world. The guy is the CLEAR frontrunner (not that the frontrunner at this point necessarily wins) right now, but he's hardly "skyrocketing".

The Gallup poll from early October to today shows a move from 16% to 17%. NBC has him going from 12% in early July to 15% today (DOWN from 17% last month). Newsweek is 12% to 16% since July. Zogby is also 12% to 16% since July. Most polls show (IF they got in the race) Clinton or Gore with three to four times the support. This is NOT "skyrocketed". Half of the people still haven't heard of most of our candidates. If someone else wins an early primary, they could easily go from single digits to besting Dean. Now is not the time to get cocky.

As for the website. I was just judging priorities (and NO, I didn't spend a lot of time there - I assume his website is good since he's raised so much online). On the front page under Dean's "On the issues"

Agriculture
Campaign Financing
Civil Rights & Justice
Economy
Education
Environment
Health
Labor
Security/Foreign Policy
Women


I assure you that "taxes" will rank higher than 10th on the average voter's list (somewhere ahead of "Agriculture" I assure you). But it didn't make Dean's top 10.

[bearfartinthewoods]

122. links?

i don't read every thread. if i've missed, give me the links ora summary please?

[Yupster]

124. If Dean plans to

raise the 10 % bracket back up to 15 %, that will be a problem for him.

[qwlauren35]

55. It's not a journalist's job...

to tell Dean how to handle the negative press. I consider it a FAVOR to point it out so that DEAN & CO. can figure out how to counter it themselves.

And I would not expect to see the results of the countering until the fur starts to fly. It has not started flying yet.

When I see articles like this, I no longer get angry at the authors. I just recognize the validity of the message and hope that the campaign is working on a counterstrategy.

AND, as a grass-roots supporter, I recognize the need to do the same.

Shooting the messenger doesn't help the campaign. Being in jail is a waste of my time! :-)

[Hep]

62. A favor!

Because had it not been for THIS GUY, Dean's people never would have expected negative propaganda!

The Dean campaign is WAY ahead of the guy who wrote that article. We've been putting up with it since Dean entered the race.

[bearfartinthewoods]

76. maybe DEALING with it would be a better strategy that putting up with it.

[Hep]

81. What a joke. Dealing with it

by raising record amounts of money with unprecedented grassroots support? How's that for a start? I was on a phone call Saturday night with howard dean and 5000 other people across the country. I assure you, we're dealing with it just fine.

I laugh and shake my head when I read posts like the one above. It's just so incredible!

[bearfartinthewoods]

116. i'm glad you find this amusing

four more years of bush doesn't tickle my funny bone.

[qwlauren35]

50. I wish you had posted the entire thing!

George Will's point was clear. If some fear nominating Dean, they should consider what happens if he is NOT nominated, i.e. that many Deaniacs would rather write in Dean than vote for any other Democrat.

It is dangerous to underestimate the momentum of Dean's supporters. Too many of them are NOT "ABB" voters.

*ABB being "Anybody But Bush".

[Hep]

65. If I may

continue on my Bertrand Russell quoting spree:

Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.

You guys are siding with George Will!

WOW

[Frodo]

89. Read it again.

Or heck, read it the first time - I gave a link.

Will is saying that nominating ANYONE OTHER THAN DEAN is a mistake. He agrees that Dean has huge "issues", but picking someone else NOW could be deadly.

But, hey - just see the name "George Will" and go on the attack. It fits your MO on this thread.

[Julien Sorel]

106. Will has been begging for Dean

for a couple of months now. This article is just one more piece of it, and argued from a different, more subtle standpoint, as is Will's wont. Someone should put a list together of all the Republican hacks who are begging for a piece of Dean. Will, Hannity, Carlson, Rove, Safire, Rush, Novak, have all been openly supporting Dean. I have the feeling I'm leaving people off that list.

[Jack The Tab]

113. To listen or acknowledge any conservative pundit about our candidates....

is absolutely crazy. Let them froth and foam and talk amongst themselves, but to analyze anything they say in formulating your opinion about candidates or their electability seems silly to me.

I don't give a shit what Will or Hannity or Carlson or Safire has to say about any of the Dem nominees. Nor will i try to read into their WORTHLESS commentaries.

[Julien Sorel]

117. It's evidence, nothing more.

But when they say something, party insiders say something, common sense says something, polls say something, it's time to start drawing certain conclusions.

[bearfartinthewoods]

90. wow...that's only a step away from blackmail

make Dean the nominee or screw it...

oh yeah...these are thinking, commited dems.

wait a minute...this is a george will theory? hummmpfh.

i have to have faith that people will do the right thing no matter who is nominated.

[mmonk]

30. Bottom line

and I expect disagreement, but this is as I see it. With the popularity of conservative "news", inaction on the Plame affair, and other matters coupled with a generally confused public that can't connect any dots, if we run a person people consider liberal and weak on defense (as defined by the conservatives because they will control the image), we are going to lose . To not know this is to doom us to defeat.

[Orangepeel]

34. and?

Republicans are going to run an ad just like that no matter who our nominee is. That's what they ALWAYS do and what they always will do.

Worrying about what the republicans will say is just a waste of time because they will say it no matter what. Instead, worry about how to counteract it.

In terms of electability, the question is how is the nominee going to fight those ads? If they rely on some notion that "people aren't likely to believe that about ________" they will lose. If they rely solely on a traditional media campaign to put out ads that say the opposite, they'll lose because they won't be able to raise enough money to counteract the ads.

We need to nominate a good candidate with a good record and then rely on a national grassroots campaign to get our message across.

[Frodo]

38. Yes - and THESE are the types of ads that will run against Dean -

The point of the post is to determine IF we can respond to those ads.

So far? I haven't seen anything. everyone want to attack the messenger (who in this case only wants to see Bush out).

[Capn Sunshine]

42. These are the types of posts that will run against Dean

in the primaries.

It will be old news if such bogus follishness is attempted , and to imply that the republicans are as stupid as some of the democratic campaigns is disingenuous at best.

No one is going to run these ads, they are too easily countered.
They are simplistice puerile and don't resontae with anyone except someone who isn't going to vote for Dean.

[mrgorth]

45. You don't counter that crap

You go on the offensive. You go after *'s weak spots and use the same things in *'s ad in a positive light.

"Howard Dean provided health care to 93% of the people in Vermont. Even children whose parent's were to poor to afford it".

"Howard Dean gave civil rights to all Vermonters."

"Aren't you tired of being divided?"

"Aren't you tired of being afraid?"

"Howard Dean...hope for the future".

[mrgorth]

44. Thank you Orangepeel

I was going to write the same thing and I really don't understand what is wrong with NYfM and BLM that they think other candidates wouldn't get the same crap.

Civil Unions:
-They all support them now.
-Bush will use this no matter who the nominee is.
-Dean at least explains it well (ever hear the d-day vet story?)

The War:
-Dean opposed it from the beginning and, again, explains why very well.
-Kerry kind of opposed the war and has a wishy washy message that noone understands.
-Clark opposed the war but they will show Clark's GOP cheerleading.
-Gep stood shoulder to shoulder with the Pres. Why make a change?

Health Care:
-They all have a big expensive plan that tries to cover everyone. Bush will paint this as Canadian no matter which dem it is.
-Geps is actually bigger than Dean's.
-Dean has at least been able to make it work somewhere.

Read. Understand.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

46. More evidence

that Dean is the frontrunner.

If Kerry were the frontrunner, there would be a similar piece about how Bush is thrilled to potentially face a "life long Massacussetts liberal" who voted against the $87 billion, etc. etc.

Same with Gep, Lieberman, etc.

Since Dean doesn't have this thing locked, I'm sure they are working on similar strategies for Clark, Gep, etc. Duh.

[bearfartinthewoods]

118. did you notice that this was writen by a lib?

guess not...easier to 'dismiss ' it as rovian than to consider it.

[Selwynn]

49. While not decided on Dean, I think that article is ridiculous.

First of all, the the paragraph defending Bush going into Iraq under the pretenses of lies, half-truths and desception at the expense of 400+ US lives with no clear plan and no clear exit stategy is ridiculous. I'd also like to remind the write of that little story that we don't have Saddam yet or WMDS, or a stop to terrorism, or a working functioning Iraq infastructure. All we have are huge government contracts handed out to friends of the administration and no clear signs of any progress.

As for the rest of it - anyone who things the Bush administration feels they are going to "waltz" through next year is an idiot. Reguardless of who is nominated, the Bush adminstration has a lot of damange control to do for its own actions, nevermind fighting to discredit a political opponent.

No, I don't think Dean or any other Democratic candidate will have an easy time of it, in fact I'm not even sure we will be able to win in the face of such a tyrannical machine, but I don't think for a second that BushCo is doing a happy dance about anything.

.... before I get to carried away, I must say that given the choice between dean and clark I think the Bush administration would fear Clark for more than Dean. Dean is a very easy target for Republicans to attack, right or wrong. The can portray him as a hothead (false) as an extreme liberal (false) and not having enough security/foreign policy experience (I know the irony of that attack, but they could do it). They can't attack Clark on any of those grounds, and the only attack they could make, that he is too cozy with Republicans won't not help their cause at all, even though its a favorite of many Democrats here.

I'm not saying Clark is the better choice. I'm just saying that I don't have blind faith in Dean. I think Dean may make a great president who may have a brutally difficult road of overcoming huge obstacles ahead of him if he is to win. But despite that, I don't think BushCo is doing a happy dance about damn near anything right now.

[Guaranteed]

52. You're so damned afraid of losing.

We'll never win with that attitude. We have to hit Bush very hard if we're going to win this, and it seems that Howard Dean is the only one who's willing to do it.

What's so bad about being anti-war when there are already rumors flying around about a draft? You wanna get people on the "peace-nik's" side? Start talking about a draft. This is going to be our STRENGTH in 2004.

[bearfartinthewoods]

53. geee.....but i thought everyone who shared this opion was

a freeper/rovian/dean hating scum.

looks like someone else is sharing my nightmares.

[Hep]

70. No, lots of people are misguided,

driven by something other than logic and objectivity. You have your own support group. Too bad you can't find a different forum in which to air your so-called "concerns".

[ryharrin]

58. How to tell this article is BS-

The guy thinks Gephardt is the most electable. If you're going with the electability argument at least go with something a bit more believable, like Clark. How many people are in Gephardt's congressional district? More that there are in Vermont? If not, there goes that argument.

[killbotfactory]

72. I'll be sure to print this out...

and wipe my ass with it.

[Hep]

85. What's amazing

is that they think it's REAL!

[Jack The Tab]

111. Triumph sez: "This article is great........for me TO POOP ON!"

n/t

[Larkspur]

120. Don't worry, Dean won't take this BS lying down

They are already planning their ad blitz on Bush and may start it during the Dem primaries so that they can get a jump on Bush/Rove.

I heard that they will use Bush's "Mission Accomplished" photo op against the Squander-in-chief.

[Frodo]

123. You see, it isn't all BS.

We will have to deal with VT being such a small state. Lots of House Representatives have more people voting for them.

Maybe the VT Governor is "consititutionally" more powerful than the Gov of TX?

[spindoctor]

125. We are all suffering from Rovenoia.

Rove is turning into this mythical PR person, who has in the past and will in the future anticipate any step that his opponents make.
No, his opponents do not make a step without Rove wanting them to make it.
They only THINK they have a choice in what steps they make, but in reality Rove has made them for them a long time ago as part of his master scheme for world domination.

Rove anticipated me typing this message a long time ago, so nothing I will say here can really hurt him or his genius. His next move is already prepared and waiting to counter this post.


sighs


People get OFF it. He is a short, ugly, bold and fat little guy with a minority complex and a temper. I am sure he is good in what he does, but by no means is he this superhuman that everybody is making him out to be.

[Frodo]

127. Message from Rove

You were supposed to say "sigh" - not "sighs".

Get it right next time.