DU article today: Down the Rabbit Hole

[DagmarK]

"There is solace in studying the history of countries that have demonstrated similar periods of prolonged public ignorance. Germany, France, Japan, and Italy, to name a few, experienced surges of irrational, highly disseminated political opinion at various stages in their cultural history. All enjoyed an eventual intellectual renaissance of sorts, though it came at great cost, and permanently changed the political and social character of their country. Many Americans, myself included, would welcome such a change."

**The above is the concluding paragraph in the Down the Rabbit Hole article on our main page. It's a good little article talking about the degradation and disintegration of intelligent, objective political discourse in this country.

I was caught off guard by the author's conclusion.

First, when did France demonstrate a period of public ignorance? I can make the historical connection as to the "great cost" that germ, japan and italy had to pay to return to a state of intellectual renaissance. But not France. Unless we are talking about the Napoleonic Wars or something...... which doesn't go in the same fruit cart as the examples of italy, germany and japan (WW2 era stuff). Just curious.

Second, I look around at our society (and having spent a couple of days in freeperville Spokane, Washington this week -- I can't imagine the people alive today who (a horrid majority!) embodying the skewed political and religious ideology EVER coming around.

And they are filling their kids' heads with all that crap as well. So there's yet another generation that will need a lobotomy or intense deprogramming.

Basically, the author takes solace in the history that other countries experiencing public ignorance on a grand scale made their way back out of the rabbit hole. I can't seem to take solace in that. I can't imagine our country returning to the days of reason and intellectual honesty ANYTIME during my lifetime (I am 41).

I listened to AM radio on my long drive up to and back from Spokane. I was aghast at the hate, vitriol, abject disinformation, lies, attitudes and utter contempt for people, like us, who are concerned with schools, education quality, medicare, headstart, college opportunities for everyone, etc. (the dem platform).

On a whole, our country has lost its CONSCIENCE. How twisted it is that alleged RELGIOUS and PIOUS people (the society; not the pundits) have eradicated CONSCIENCE? So, they aren't using their BRAINS. They aren't using their HEARTS. What the heck are these people using to come to their insane conclusions about what's wrong with the world and how we should fix it?

Are we a nation that has been possessed by EVIL? By Satan? I don't get it.

The serenity prayer comes to mind:

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

WISDOM tells *me* that this is a problem of Tsunami proportions -- We are talking two full generations for this disease to work itself out of our system. And that's ONLY if the liberals take control of this country (via govt, the media, the schools and any other vehicle that touches the masses). That's a big ole IF considering the current state of 'ownership' of these mass vehicles of information and program dissemination.

The only other way to temper our society's ignorance that I can think of is for the USA to fall flat on its face across the board. As in a total destruction of our country through war and economic depression. So that each person has no choice but to face his own conscience and heart and hopefully return to sanity. And collectively, we might be able to pick ourselves up and head down a more decent path.

And then I think about 9/11. No one ever asked the question: Why are these people so pissed off at us? Nooooooo, we took the victim role and became aggressors. Never did we search our conscience. Never. And we are not without blame. No one should do what they did on 9/11. But it didn't come about in a vacuum.

Perhaps the Radical Right itself will be the vehicle with which we can return to a more level-headed and reasonable society? They are afterall doing everything they can to make certain that we fall flat on our faces: removing educational opportunities for the masses; trouncing the economy where we are destined to a depression-era; and so much hate being generated amongst neighbors and families and groups and religions that ultimately people WILL have to board themselves in their homes to avoid the vitriol. Maybe THEN people will return to themselves and consult their heads and hearts?

And me? I want to do what is right to help take back our country. But I have maybe 20 years left on my life -- and it's been a difficult life for many reasons. I would like to enjoy what's left and not have to fight these bastards -- esp when I know that in my lifetime, I won't see any of the rewards.

So I am pausing for a minute in this battle for the integrity of the great and mighty USA and thinking......do I want my life to be devoted to "the cause" or should I spend the rest of my days connecting to my own head and heart (in another country) and thinking and acting 'locally'?

Such a quandary on this beautiful summer day.

[PunkinPi]

1. I agree with most of what you said, but

"I would like to enjoy what's left and not have to fight these bastards -- esp when I know that in my lifetime, I won't see any of the rewards."

That's a bit selfish don't you think? What about your children (if you have any)?

[DagmarK]

3. No children........

Thank GAWD! I would really hate having to explain what is happening to a wide-eyed 10 year old. It would just kill me.

No, I don't think it's selfish. I have fought many battles in my life -- for the public good and to overcome many personal obstacles. I have done my time, I believe.

And the fact of the matter is.......this majority who is intellectually dishonest? They are this way because they have CHOSEN to be this way. when I was listening to Rush and Dr. Laura, I realized that the contempt that we have for those very few pundits is misplaced. Rush doesn't FORCE people to buy his crap. People haven't been systematically brainwashed. They have CHOSEN to buy it and use it.

And if the end result is that our culture won't change except under dire circumstances for all -- why should I hang around and reap the karmic balancing for the choices of a bunch of numbskulls, who, by the way, treat me like DIRT on a daily basis?

I think I would rather just let them feed on themselves.........they deserve it.

(Oh, thanks for reading through my musings/rant!!! :-) )

[PunkinPi]

15. I'm just wondering what happened to the Dagmark

that was trying to plan anti-Bush protests a week or two ago? :shrug:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

5. Sounds to me like she's done her part

We're all human, we can't be fighting all the time. Kudos to those who have spent a lifetime fighting the good fight. I'm willing to carry it on.

[DagmarK]

6. Thanks WhoCounts!!

Much appreciated!!

There's a reason younger people are more idealistic -- and it's a very good reason......because retaining "the vision" as a beacon is ultra-important when fighting fierce battles.

(and if I get to Canada.......I will offer a sabbatical spot to you visit while you rest up for each phase of the battle!)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

8. if I keep it up with my big mouth

I just may need a place up there to hide out! Thanks!

[DagmarK]

14. Hey, if you do need it.......

It will be a sign that you are fighting the good fight in the very best way! And you will greatly rewarded!!!

[ewagner]

2. Some thoughtful folks raised this

Yoou wrote:

"And then I think about 9/11. No one ever asked the question: Why are these people so pissed off at us? Nooooooo, we took the victim role and became aggressors. Never did we search our conscience. Never. And we are not without blame. No one should do what they did on 9/11. But it didn't come about in a vacuum"

This is where the now famous RW phrase "blame America first" slogan came about. Anybody who said that we should explore in more depth "why do they hate us?" was treated to that phrase. Bush tried to answer the question with his famous "they hate freedom" speech; followed quickly by his ad-lib "...they(the terrorists) hate things and we love things..."

Having said that, I will also say that one of the greatest failures of the Bush Administration is not addressing this very question. Remember when they hired some hotshot Madison Avenue Ad Exec to write and produce new propaganda for the Islamic world? That was a feeble and cynical attempt. Bush even undermined his own publicity campaign with his arrogance before the United Nations and his "with us or against us..." speeches.


I completely understand that there are groups like Al Queda who cannot and will not be reasoned with. That there are groups who will understand nothing but violence and we have to deal with that. Until we are willing to address the sources of hatred, however, we will never be totally safe.

[DagmarK]

4. Ewagner.....thanks for your thoughtful post......

Yes, groups like al queda cannot be reasoned with. BUT they do have some sense of accountability to other groups other than the USA. As in their families, history, countries of origins. So.....by exploring and dealing with the source of the hate at the general level, I think we could have and still can reduce the impact of groups like al queda by appealing to the source of the problem with greatest number of "reasonable" people (muslims collectively). I do not doubt that those groups COULD contain al queda better than anything the USA could say or do militarily. But that's a no-brainer.

Yes, thanks for the reminder about how "they hate us for our freedoms" origins. So very true.

[ewagner]

10. Good Concept

By appealing to the greatest number of reasonable people while helping them out of poverty and ignorance at the same time, groups like Al Queda could become marginalized.

Additionally, it's hard to hate people you know. Therefore every avenue to introduce Americans to people of the Middle East should be taken through exchange programs, goodwill missions (I don't think this administration has ever heard of Goodwill Misions!!!)


...Good concept.

[DagmarK]

11. ooo, but guess what ewagner......

I know this was a slip......but when you made reference to helping that group "out of poverty and ignorance", I was set aback for a second.

You have to know that the middle east has one of the best educational systems. Truly. I may be speaking from ignorance of myself (as I am a product of the US educational system. LOL). But sitting on all that oil.......they are not poverty-stricken, unless the rulers of the individual countries are withholding the riches. But like with Quatar, I think all people there reap the benefits of the oil riches. Even in evil Saddam's world, EVERYONE was educated through college at state expense. EVERYONE, including kurds!

Have you ever been in a math class with someone from the middle east? I haven't. Why? Because they were all in calculus 3 classes as freshmen. I was in intro to algebra.

As far as the muslims in Africa.....that's a different story -- as we seem to witness the horrors there.

And for the far east.......I don't know much about their situation.

But......by and far, the groups who could most influence al queda have all the resources they need and then some. It's US who needs to get educated and get our people out of poverty......

[Eloriel]

7. Very poignant post

It certainly puts me in touch (again) with my own heartache about the state of our nation. My own concerns, anxieties, fears.

There are so many DUers who insist that we HAVE to get George Bush out of office, no matter who takes his place. I've posted about this before, but I have a different perspective, shared by a few DUers, but only a few.

My perspective comes from a reasonably thorough look at how we got HERE, to where we are today, which includes not only the "stinkin' thinkin'" so in evidence for so many of our population, not only a complicit media, but the history of the Bush Crime Family.

I don't know if these old DU threads are available again yet, but here are some links to some of my threads on the subject and other good information:

REALITY 501 - A DU Course Syllabus
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6920&forum=DCForumID70&archive=

Realilty 501: Syllabus UPDATE
(Read this first because it's got links and text while the original thread is just outline form with few if any links)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8535&forum=DCForumID70&archive=

The US, the Saudis, and oil (a piece of Eloriel's Big Picture)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8558&forum=DCForumID70&archive=


"ABC and the Rise of Rush Limbaugh"
(CIA, Wm. Casey, Capitol Cities, FCC, etc.)
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jonvwill/resurgent/L-libmedia.htm


Bush, Nazis, Eugenics, and more - LINKS galore (also added to 501 UPDATE)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3101&forum=DCForumID12&archive=


14 Characteristics of Fascism (booley)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8123&forum=DCForumID70&archive=

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In a nutshell (back to my perspective), I fear that getting a Dem in office, even my own cherished candidate, will NOT end the problems that have led us to today but instead will offer only a pleasant respite.

So from that viewpoint, while I would hate for Bush to stay in office for the short term, would replacing him get us to where we need to go? It's a bit like a boil, or a cancer. Shall we apply bandaids and hope it'll go away, or would we be better off getting to the point wher we as a nation realize this can't go on and put a full and total stop to it -- totally and utterly repudiating the sociopaths and neofascists who are in charge of so many of our corporations and so much of our government?

I don't fault you for wondering to yourself if you're up to and willing to continue on, or for pondering a move to another country. I don't consider you selfish. As for myself, I still believe in America, and I don't know if it's because I do have one child myself, or just because I'm an idealist: I want that dream, those ideals that represent America, not to perish from the earth. Too, I personally don't want to live in the dark future I can too easily envision for the trajectory that we're on, even for a little while and if there's anything I can do to prevent it or lessen it, I want to do my part, partly for my own comfort, but also because I feel it's been such a blessing to live in this country, in this era(well, up to 2-1/2 years ago).

Edited to add: one of my fondest dreams for my country is that one day, in the not too distant future, our foreign policy will match what most Americans believe it to be. They DON'T hate us for our freedoms. They hate us because we deny theirs.

Eloriel

[DagmarK]

12. I think having a little one on your apron string definitely influences

one's perspective. It has to. And thank god it does.

I so appreciate your commitment to this country and your vision that things can be righted (or is that "lefted"? LOL).

I remember your post on the syllabus and will go through all of your links (I hope they work!) a bit later.

I agree.....just getting bush out of office is .01% of the task at hand. And that's a big arse hurdle in itself. Then what? Just watching the bills roll out of congress day after day is truly demoralizing. In 2.5 years, this disease that has taken the wheel of our big ship has decimated our country on every front. And you are right -- it didn't happen overnight. The final solution (to quote Hitler) didn't get underway till Bush stole the election, but the foundation for all of it has been brewing since JFK was assassinated, and went into high gear when Nixon resigned.

I remember being a poli sci student in the early 1980s. I was such a little America lover at the time that I purposely wore clothes that were red, white and blue. (Just for my own satisfaction...not to be like part of some patriotic crowd. I don't know why I did that! Even had a flag rhinestone broach of a flag. Puke! Okay, I was in west texas. LOL).

Anyways, I just couldn't believe the stuff I was reading about our foreign policy. It was truly disturbing to me. I was the kid in class who would pipe in and say, "are you kidding me??? we did that???" Now, at 41, I realize that I must have been a dream come true to our liberal professors! I am sure they went home thinking, "thank you God, I have helped save at least one young person from abject ignorance!" Cause west texas had always been staunch democratic, but conservative nonetheless. No wonder I made straight A's --- it must have been a reward for being willing to get a clue.

So.....that's 20 years ago.....and I have always been involved in the good fight. And also my own battles that are hair-raising to some. And always carried out with such a spirit of fortitude and courage. But now.....I want to focus on an herb garden. And perhaps because my generation let the gate open (and we did!!!), perhaps the next generation should bring their vision to the mix. I think we really do need to let more of your young people plan the next stages -- they have the idealism that wanes with age.

[OneBlueSky]

9. excellent post, DagmarK . . .

some of us who've been around awhile and have walked the walk understand exactly what you're feeling . . . I, for one, have no energy left to fight the bastards other than by voting and making meager (and I do mean meager) donations to this candidate or that cause . . . when you see virtually all social progress of the past half century being reversed with the near complete acquiesence of the American people, spending your days in the garden or the shop seems far more sensible than manning the picket lines yet again . . .

the issue that I have cared most about over the years is the environment, and I and millions of others have worked long and hard to bring environmental awareness and protection into the public discourse . . . it's taken BushCon two short years to reverse much of that progress, and they're mostly doing it through executive fiat rather than legislation . . . and Joe and Jane SixPack thinks it's all just peachy keen, as long as they can drive their SUVs on cheap gas and plow their snowmobiles through "their" national parks . . . we've permanently radioactivated huge portions of two countries, pulled out of every environmental treaty ever negotiated, and are well on our way to the whole damn country looking like Houston . . . hell, I don't even know if I'll be able to get seeds for my garden in ten years (or less) without paying a royalty to Monsanto . . .

I do hope the younger generation gets as passionate about these and other issues as my generation once was . . . but I've paid my dues as well, have some serious health issues to deal with daily, and have neither the energy nor the desire to argue with people whose heads are so firmly embedded in their own asses that they can't hear me anyhow . . .

ah, hell . . . that's enough ranting . . . I won't be leaving the country, but I also won't be at the forefront of the fight . . . rather than trying to make things happen, I'm at that point where I'm content to just stick around to see what happens next . . . and wish the new peaceful warriors much love, luck, and laughter as they do battle with the dark side . . .

[DagmarK]

13. Hi OneBlueSky......

Whenever I see your handle, I think......"oooooo, I miss the beautiful blue skies of New Mexico!" and then ask.....maybe it's a reference to the big sky country of Montana (also breath-taking).

I think there is a season in every person's life when he is most in tune with what it takes to lead a successful battle. I commend you (and thank you) for you having used your special season to fight so hard and effectively for our beautiful earth.

I wonder if people like you and I should perhaps try to be mentors to the youths to which we are passing the torch? We had some grand role models to help us in the 60's, 70s and then dwindling quite a bit in the 80s. Who do our youth have to model themselves after if not us? Even Gloria Steinem (one of my heroes) has backtracked on some of her more stringent standards...a bit..but still backtracking.

And our culture has become ever more unstable in the last 20 years (in which our new warriors have grown from seeds to sprouts to actual self-sufficient plants in their own right). Families are more and more disconnected.....education has declined immensely...personal accountability for the simplest problems is practically non-existent (look at the litigious society that has emerged).

Perhaps our best investment for the future of our society and our earth is to invest our time and wisdom in these young warriors? Give them some quick tutoring in community ideas.

I can't tell you how long it has been since I have seen a bumper sticker that reads "think globally, act locally." Whereas 8-10 years ago, they were everywhere. (granted, I was in Santa Fe then...and I would imagine the cars are still plastered with them there).