M1 Abrams tank disabled by Iraq roadside explosion (Proof we are winning?)

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20031029/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_tank&cid=1514&ncid=1480

WASHINGTON (AFP) - An M1 Abrams tank was disabled in Iraq by a roadside explosion for the first time in an incident that killed two crew members and wounded a third, US military spokesmen said.

Little information was available on the extent of damage or the type of explosive device used in the attack late Tuesday about 40 kilometers (25 miles) northeast of the town of Balad.

But it was another sign of the growing effectiveness of the attacks against even the most heavily armored US forces.

"Two soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division were killed and one was wounded when their tank hit an unidentified explosive device," the US military said in a statement. snip

"If it is true that a tank was damaged to this sort of extent resulting in fatalities by a simple roadside bomb, depending on whatever size it was, that does not bode well for the future of the occupation," he said.

"That really does prove there is no safe place for American soldiers," he said.

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[judge_smales]

1. Yup.

I seriously doubt that Joe Average Iraqi would have the know how to destroy a vehicle like that.

[Aidoneus]

5. it's not *that* out of the question

While they're not an Abrams M1, the Chechens have been destroying Russian tanks/armoured infantry carriers for years with creative landmines and light shoulder-fired armaments. In Gaza, the Palestinians were able to destroy an Israeli Merkava tank (perhaps comperable to an Abrams like this one, but I'm not knowledgeable on such things enough to say for certain) on at least one occasion, seriously damaging one on other occasions, with a powerful bomb buried under the road it travelled over.

It is not so much a matter of "Great Power" technology that is so out of reach to the rest of the world, but tactical planning and enough basic explosives--neither of which seems to be of any shortage in Iraq--and targetting these armoured vehicles specifically where their weaknesses are. My very limited understanding of heavy armored units aside, while they are quite formidable in direct combat, most of them have a "soft underbelly" that exposes them to various forms of land mines, with enough power behind the latter and proper planning any of them are fair game even the top of the line as this act displays. In this way, they are practically sitting ducks to such things in urban areas without infantry support, against even comparitvely low-tech resistance units.

Even so, if the resistance in Iraq is taking out an Abrams tank that's a big change to things. It will make the occupation forces feel exposed everywhere, no matter what means they felt safe going after and killing Iraqis with previously. With helicopters also being downed, and military bases routinely hit with mortars, they will feel safe only in their F16s (which do not make for good governors).

[The Magistrate]

6. Indeed, Sir

Enough explosive will do it, particularly if directed from underneath.

This does seem to demonstrate an increasing sophistication to the attacks against U.S. forces, that does not bode well for continued operation along present lines.

[Beetwasher]

2. This Incident plus the Rockets Hitting the Hotel

indicate to me that there are at least two distinct forces fighting the US occupation.

The one's using these tactics are militarily trained and somewhat sophisticated. They make these attacks and get away w/ them, get even more experience and are able to do them again and improve and train others.

The other force are the one's responsible for the suicide bombers.

Two completely different tacts suggest two different C&C structures.

Very, very bad situation and it's only going to get worse.

[Frangible]

3. That's an incredibly powerful bomb

Abrams have massive depleted uranium armor, I'm really surprised they could build an explosive that penetrated it. Just goes to show what a mistake the whole thing was.

[damnraddem]

9. And where is the DU armor? On the bottom of the tank? On the back?

Of course, the bottom is of greater importance in the case of a mine, or 'explosive device' on or in the roadway. A tank that could survive a big hit on the front or side might not survive a smaller hit from below.

[ctex]

10. DU armor is only on the front of an Abrams.

If they put it everywhere the tank would weigh about 200 tons.

[DemoVet]

4. The Vietcong/NVA had a trick

of putting an anti-tank mine on top of a drum of mogas, which could flip over an APC, this sounds like something on that order. A normal anti-tank mine won't flip over a tank. One possibility, though, is if the mine broke the track the vehicle may have skidded off the road. I was a grunt, not a tanker, any tankers out there have any comments?

[NNN0LHI]

7. Its nothing but a shaped charge

Any military would have plenty of experience building shaped charges. Where did that Iraqi army go again? I don't think they went anywhere. I think they are still around. I just can't believe Saddam was smart enough to pull this off. But then again he did run Iraq for 30 years which would not be any simple trick in itself. But I still say he had some advice from someone else here. These look like the kinds of tactics used against the USSR a few times in the past. Here we go into Iraq to find the most advanced types of WMD's and end up getting our asses kicked with the enemy using some of the most primitive weaponry. Now lets see, who would give Saddam some good advice here again?

http://english.people.com.cn/200302/24/eng20030224_112160.shtml

Last updated at: (Beijing Time) Monday, February 24, 2003
Russian Envoy Primakov Visits Baghdad

Former Russian prime minister Yevgeny Primakov has arrived in Baghdad on a confidential mission, diplomatic sources said in Baghdad on Sunday.

Former Russian prime minister Yevgeny Primakov has arrived in Baghdad on a confidential mission, diplomatic sources said in Baghdad on Sunday.

The mission of the Russian envoy from President Vladimir Putin is expected to focus on how to defuse the current Iraqi crisis as the United States is piling up its threats to attack Iraq.

Russia has maintained that the Iraqi issue should be resolved peacefully through the United Nations.

The 73-year-old Primakov, who is a specialist in Arab affairs, has been well known for his close ties to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

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Wonder what old friends Primakov and Hussein chit chatted about just a few months before we invaded Iraq?

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Well, well, well

they ahve figured out how to take the MI out... not good folks
and this is very sophisticated.

And yes it may sugest two separate groups, or more.

[Brian Sweat]

11. The problem with the M1 is that it was designed for the cold war.

It is designed to withstand frontal assaults. All tanks are. Tanks have always been vulnerable to infantry. In a conventional war, tanks are supported by infantry. The supporting units prevent enemy infantry units from attacking the tank's weak spots.

The M1s in Iraq are probably being used in such a manner that they are being exposed to attacks that allow the enemy to hit the tanks where they have less armor.