Guns - I Just Don't Know What To Say

[ThomWV]

First off you need to know this, I've probably owned a hundred guns in my life, have about a dozen right now, and expect I'll see a few more come and go before I'm done as well. I've got nothing against firearms, but at the same time I'm not particularly a gun nut, just hunt now and then. More then than now actually.

Earlier this evening I got to spend some time with about a half a dozen folks of generally like mind. There wasn't a republican voter in the place and there wasn't a person who didn't vote in the place either. The youngest person there was probably 25, I was the oldest at 58. As the discussion moved around it temporally landed on people carrying guns, and more precisely carrying concealed weapons.

I allowed as I thought it was a pretty silly thing to do, that I couldn't see a single reason on earth why anyone would want to, and that overall the world was a worse place for people carrying the damned things around much at all, let alone hidden. So imagine my surprise to hear that virtually everyone in the room thought they were fine, that every one of them knew what the regulations, requirements, and permitting procedures were to carry a concealed firearm, and that half of them had permits. I like to shit.

One lady said that the guy who she took her manditory instruction (some number of hours from a certified instructor were required) from told her that while sitting at the food court on a saturday afternoon he saw 26 pervious female students of his at the mall and that he suspected they were all carrying guns. And these were all leagal. Holy shit!

Am I the only baboon left on the planet who doesn't have a gun hidden on him somewhere? I had no idea they were so prevelent.

[lwin]

1. I live in SoCal

I only know one person who does, and he's allowed to carry one on his job too.

Maybe it's where you live? :shrug: If they do a lot of hunting there, it's not much of a stretch to be comfortable carrying one around all the time?

[RagingInMiami]

2. I live in Miami

And everybody has a concealed weapon permit, including me.

[SidDithers]

13. Are there places you're not allowed to carry?...

Churches, schools, political rallies, airports?

And if you can't take them there, why not?

Sid

[RagingInMiami]

14. We're not allowed to have guns

Inside schools or on school grounds.

Inside any government building, including post offices.

Inside a bar, but not necessarily a bar with a restaurant. At a bar with a restaurant, such as TGIF's, you're not allowed to sit at the actual bar if you're packing, but you can sit at a table away from the bar.

Airports.

Political rallies.

Sporting events.

Public parks.

Any place of business that has a sign visibly posted that guns are not allowed. If there is no sign, then there is no law.

I'm not sure about churches.

And I'm not sure about financial institutions either.

There might be others but I can't remember right now.

[Selatius]

3. People carry guns regardless if it's legal or not in the US

Even if we outlawed all guns, it won't address the issue of criminals with smuggled weapons. The most practical solution is to bring the problem out into the open and regulate the practice, and while you are at it, you'd be better off in the long run if you address poverty and lack of opportunities, which aggravates the crime situation in this country, and you probably should tackle the issue of race relations, unless you want to repeat what happened in France except with lots of guns and a lot more dead bodies.

[pocket]

4. that's scary insane

wow

[Greyhound]

47. Why? If you were aware of just how many people around you are

armed you would probably freak out. Trust me, there's lots, and nothing happens. The anti-gun hysteria is just another agenda being pushed by those who stand to gain from it.
Most cops never use their weapons in the line of duty and they deal with criminals every day.
It's kind of like the drug laws, if they were all legalized tomorrow, would you go out and score some heroin and shoot up? Of course not, but you're afraid of the other people you think would, when in fact, they wouldn't either. Everybody that wants to do drugs is already doing them.

[jody]

5. SCOTUS has ruled that self-defense is a personal problem. The tools

for self-defense are personal choices so which tool do you suggest if a petite woman wishes to exercise her inalienable right?

Handguns are the choice of professionals like law enforcement officers and criminals and a concealed carry weapon (CCW) license are required for possession outside one's home in most states.

[leetrisck]

6. Concealed carry laws are no more than gun registration

When the police & military give up theirs, I might give up mine.

[michreject]

7. I don't know anyone who doesn't have a CCW

I carry one with me every place I go.

[TahitiNut]

24. Pistol Free Areas in Michigan

Pistol Free Areas

Beginning July 1, 2001, individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state will be prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol in the following areas:

1. Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian

2. Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

3. Sports arena or stadium

4. A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises

5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons

6. An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

7. A hospital

8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

9. A Casino

10. Premises does not include parking areas of the above places

[michreject]

27. Don't go to any of those places.

I do however go to the post office. My carry gun is left in the truck with my wife, but she has her CCW so the laws not being broken.

[zippy890]

8. seriously scary shit

I never knew how much the law varied state to state.

34 states have Mandatory 'CARRYING CONCEALED HANDGUNS': CCW LAWS
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=ccwstate

Needless to say I am very happy to not be living in one of those states

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. That is a very misleading statement

It implies that states are mandating that people CCW.

That is NOT true in MO. Yet it is listed as a mandated state.

So you can move to Missouri and you won't need to worry that EVERYONE is mandated to carry a weapon. I work in Missouri and most of my friends live there. Yet I know NONE who CCW. N O N E.

[zippy890]

31. explanation

in states with MANDATORY CCW Laws - Police are forced to issue CCW permits to almost any non-felon applicant

Basically anyone who applies to carry a concealed weapon is given a permit and allowed to do so.
The term mandated refers to the action the police, by state law, have to take when an applicant applies for a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The police do not have the authority to approve applicants based on public safety. - its the police's handling of the application that is mandated by the state's law.

and yes, I feel much safer living in a state where the police are required to restrict the issuance of such permits.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. I understand that

It is still misleading. Not everyone will read the fine print and get the true meaning.

[MrSandman]

25. Mandatory or ...

Giving all the same opportunity to have a CHL regardless of wealth or political influence.

[Wcross]

28. "I am very happy to not be living in one of those states"

You prefer a State that only allows its criminals to carry? HMMMMM.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. Paranoia runs deep. The bogeyman is gonna get them.

[Silverhair]

12. When you have actually been a crime victim, then you know...

...that the bogeyman isn't a myth. He is real and I am ready if he comes around again.

[losdiablosgato]

41. I have twice had to pull my pistol to protect myself

One tine the guy had a gun and the other a knife. I thankfully never had to fire it, the display of a weapon was enough. But would have been up shit creek with out it.

[Wonk]

10. America isn't #1 yet. Keep trying :0

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap

[billbuckhead]

18. If NRA has it's way we''l catch up to Zimbabwe & Columbia

If NRA has it's way we'll catch up to Zimbabwe & Columbia in no time at all. When you look at charts like that, it's hard to feel proud about America. Like Molly Ivan's says, "America is the world's richest third world nation". America's pathetic failed gun policy places us with failed states often in civil war and gun "enthusiasts" brag about it. I guess it's part of the rightwing's "culture of life".

Notice the incredibly huge difference between European nations and the USA. Also notice how much higher Switzerland is vs other Euro nations.

[RagingInMiami]

36. It's Colombia

And guns are illegal in many cities down there, including Bogota.

[Silverhair]

11. Now imagine yourself to be a street criminal.

You have that same knowledge about the percentage who are packing heat. How do you chose who to mug?

[RagingInMiami]

15. Spoken like a true Texan

[Silverhair]

33. Thank you for such a great compliment. NT

[Greyhound]

48. You live in FL? remember when they passed the CC law there?

The criminals started targeting the tourists because they knew they wouldn't have a piece on them, this caused the rental car agencies to take their stickers off their cars so it was harder to tell the rentals from the locals.

[RagingInMiami]

51. I remember very much

I bought a gun more than ten years after I was shot at in a road rage incident.

[Silverhair]

53. That person probably did not have a CCW.

People with CCWs are usually very careful about safeguarding the priviledge and don't do stupid illegal things with their guns. That guy would have had his gun anyway - law or no law. After all, the law did not keep him from shooting at you.

BTW - What happened to the predictions of a "return to the old west"? I have heard that your crime rate has come down.

[RagingInMiami]

57. We crime has gone done throughout the country in general

And in Miami's case, our crime really skyrocketed during the eighties because of the Mariel boatlift, which brought a lot of criminals along with a lot of law abiding citizens. There was also a lot of racial tension down here at the time. And crack cocaine, which was big back then, wasn't helping matters any either.

Most of those criminals are either dead or in jail so things have mellowed. But I agree with the old bumpter sticker, "If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will carry guns."

[billbuckhead]

17. Criminals steal 170,000 guns per yr vs 200 justifiable homicides

Not very much of a deterrent by the numbers. One wonders how much unreported domestic and neighborhood violence is aided by guns.

Only the USA of advanced nations have these ridiculously weak gun regulation and enforcement. Only the USA of advanced nations has a gun death rate similar to third world nations. Everyday there seems to be a 2nd amendment disaster. Here's today's in Great Falls Virginia.

5 Killed in Va. Murder-Suicide Shootings
By Associated Press

58 minutes ago

GREAT FALLS, Va. - A man shot to death four people on Christmas Day in suburban Washington before killing himself, police said.

The man killed his mother in a house they shared in McLean and then traveled about eight miles to a house in Great Falls where he shot two men and a woman and then himself, The Washington Post reported on Monday, citing police sources.

The Fairfax County Police Department would not confirm the name of the gunman nor his relationship to one of the female victims when contacted Monday by The Associated Press.

The gunman apparently knew all of the victims, police said, but investigators did not report a motive for the shootings.
--------------------snip-----------------------------------
<http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2005/12/26/291229.html>

I guess they weren't "polite" enough to the perp.

[mongo]

20. 200 justifiable homicides per year is a bogus statistic

It reflects the number of times a gun was used to KILL someone and then the person was acquitted because it was self defense.

It doesn't reflect the number of times a gun was fired in self defense, and no charges were brought against the individual.

It doesn't reflect the number of times a gun was presented in self defense and never fired.

[billbuckhead]

21. Can you prove more justifiable homicides than 200 with guns?

If not, don't spin by saying the statistic is bogus when it's a true statitic from the FBI. If hospitals were allowed to keep shooting stats, I bet those would very high as well. Many pro gun regulation stats aren't reflected either but we have 30,000 deaths, 100,000 wounded and a $100 billion costs we know about.

What about all the times guns are used for crime and not reported? I'm thinking about all the domestic and neighborhood crime that guns play a large part in that don't generate crime reports.

[ptolle]

22. no choice

The truly vicious street criminal just assumes their intended victim is heeled, caps them straight off with whatever's handy and takes any weapon on the victim as part of the loot.I've always thought that if personal weapons are to have a deterrent effect you ought to have them out in plain sight and handy to get to.

[Silverhair]

34. Concealed makes the criminal play a guessing game.

There is much more to using a gun for self defense than just carrying one. Tactics and awareness are critical.

I would not mind out in the open, but it makes some people needlessly nervous.

[benEzra]

45. I prefer concealed and easy to get to, personally...

there's not really any significant time difference between a concealed handgun and an unconcealed one, and concealed keeps your options open (not to mention makes you much less prone to a surprise disarm attempt).

[DanCa]

16. I wont carry a gun on a me

The way my hands shakes you dont want me any near a piece. Its the same reason why I wont drive.

[hollowdweller]

19. What's amazing considering is that there's not more problems or accidents

I like guns and like to hunt but I have never felt the need to get a permit to carry. Never really felt unsafe anywhere I go.

[LWolf]

26. No.

I've never owned a gun of any sort; never wanted to, never will. Let alone carry it around in public.

Not that I haven't been well-exposed to guns.

My father kept them all over the house; he was an avid hunter, and kept handguns for "protection." I found this out when I was sent, as a teenager, to spend some time with him. I hadn't seen him in 8 years, and only a few times in my life before. So, I'm staying at Dad's. He gets a weekend off work, and decides to take stepmom hunting. He leaves the kids at home: 17, 15, 13, and 11. I was the 15-year-old. The rest were step siblings that I'd never even heard of, let alone met, two weeks previously. My initial impression of them? I kept hearing that banjo from "deliverance." What did dear old dad say on his way out the door? "If you kids have any trouble, there's a couple of (loaded) guns in the headboard of my bed." There I was, stranded for the weekend. I shut up, played maid and cook for the sexist stepbrother, and hid behind a book the rest of the weekend. I wasn't afraid of strangers; it was the other "siblings" in the house.

My first husband came from a gun-loving family. His grandmother liked to sit on her front porch and use her little handgun to shoot at rats. In a farming community next to a river, there were a lot of rats. When her neighbors pissed her off, rats would suddenly populate the border. They called the police frequently, who were always issuing "warnings," to which she would respond that it was legal to shoot the rats, etc. etc..
She carried her gun in her purse, without a license, everywhere she went.

And the husband; he had his grandfather's rifles, and liked to go target shooting in the desert. The trouble was, he always had to take a couple of 6packs along with him. After a couple of trips out with him and his friends to "shoot," I quit going. The friends didn't like it when I pointed out that if they were going to pick him up and go "shooting," they needed to keep him until he sobered up; that I didn't want them dropping him off drunk and armed when they were done. One of those friends visited once, and brought his loaded rifle with him. He put it in the hall closet, and they went out for a night of drinking. Came home stinking drunk, with the grocery money gone. At that point, I decided that I'd been married long enough, and packed a bag. I found the drunken spouse sitting by the door, with the friend's loaded rifle, telling me that he'd "blow me away" if I tried to leave. I didn't leave. The friend? Told me that I shouldn't have "started trouble," and it never would have happened.

The 2nd husband also kept guns; a rifle and a shotgun, unloaded, with ammo a long locked way away from the guns themselves. I don't know why he had them; he was never concerned about security, and he didn't hunt. The only time I ever saw him use one was to put a dying animal out of misery, because we couldn't get the vet to make a ranch call that weekend. He cried like a baby afterward.

Then there was the last place I lived; on the edge of "the projects." The neighbors saw me as benign, and left me alone. That didn't stop them from waving their guns around and shooting off "warnings" in the middle of the street in front of my house.

Guns? I've never been fearful enough to see the need, I guess.

[catmandu57]

29. I don't have a problem with guns

I'm not too crazy about concealed weapons, if people want to pack guns let them wear holsters like in the old west so everybody and their brother will know not to mess with them.

[madokie]

30. When I got home years ago I just never felt the need for one

Just can't bring myself around for it. On the other hand I have had several pellet guns and love to target practice. Pretty damn good to if I have to say so myself.

[-..__...]

35. Sounds like a nice bunch of people.

:smoke:

Now, if only something can be done about instituting a nationwide (reciprocal), carry permit and eliminating "may issue" (CCW permits issued at the discretion of the local police chief).

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

37. Gun-owners are more likely to die by the gun

than non-gun-owners.

This pretty much solves the equation for me.

[Silverhair]

44. We are also far more like to successfully resist a criminal assault.

That solves the equation for me.

[ismnotwasm]

38. Interesting

A new fashion statement? I grew up in a world where people carried guns. Not legal ones. But these same people would not hesitate to USE them. (Long life story)

Where ever people stand on gun control, carrying a concealed weapon is
for protection is only as good as the ability to pull the trigger in a timely, and accurate manner.
I just don't see that ingrained in your typical middle class mentality. Probably just a personal prejudice. You get accosted, you have to reach for your gun, (Women is it in your purse?) pull the safety, I know in some types of hand guns, this isn't hard...(I'm assuming anyone who has taken a gun class is going to have the safety on) point and shoot. Depending on what your are defending yourself against, that's several seconds that may or may not succeed. If someone is trained enough, and is prepared enough it might work. But I wonder what the actual deterrent statistics are? Do you aim for the head, or the crotch or the gut? A leg or a shoulder? In other words, are you able to shoot to kill? Or maim? CAN you pull the trigger in a calm manner in a panic situation? I know some people can, and will. But do the majority of concealed weapons carriers? Anybody know?

I have a gun, I don't carry it outside my home for protection. I have another (never mind what it is) easier access, easier to reach and easier to use and probably more effective- given my usually shitty aim- deterrent. I live in a tough multi-cultural inner city working class neighborhood. (By choice I like it, and I've lived in such neighborhoods my entire life) People get shot around here several times a year. We have a bus stop a block away with a faux grave marker honoring the murdered soul there.

So I don't know any answers. These are just musings, I guess. If you're going to carry a gun, and run into a situation where you going to need to use it, you'd better be prepared to use it and use it fast or it will be taken from you.
If someone is carrying one just to say they are, I can't think of anything more stupid.

[benEzra]

40. I'm licensed to carry in NC, and 31 other states

recognize the NC permit.

Where ever people stand on gun control, carrying a concealed weapon is
for protection is only as good as the ability to pull the trigger in a timely, and accurate manner.
I just don't see that ingrained in your typical middle class mentality. Probably just a personal prejudice. You get accosted, you have to reach for your gun, (Women is it in your purse?) pull the safety, I know in some types of hand guns, this isn't hard...(I'm assuming anyone who has taken a gun class is going to have the safety on) point and shoot. Depending on what your are defending yourself against, that's several seconds that may or may not succeed. If someone is trained enough, and is prepared enough it might work. But I wonder what the actual deterrent statistics are? Do you aim for the head, or the crotch or the gut? A leg or a shoulder? In other words, are you able to shoot to kill? Or maim? CAN you pull the trigger in a calm manner in a panic situation? I know some people can, and will. But do the majority of concealed weapons carriers? Anybody know?

Yes.

A lot of your CCW permit holders are probably as well trained as most police officers, at least as regards the defensive use of firearms. FWIW, when I went down to the sheriff's office to get fingerprinted and have them run the prints through the FBI database, after completing yet another training class, the officer who dealt with me said he thought the state should issue CCW permits for free to qualified applicants, instead of charging the $100+ fee. Most law enforcement officers around here are very pro-civilian-CCW; for one thing, when they encounter someone with a permit, they know they are dealing with an FBI-certified "good guy" with a squeaky-clean record, rather than an unknown quantity.

The laws on the defensive use of potentially lethal force are VERY specific. No, you can't shoot to maim someone; if you have the time for crap like that, you're not in enough danger to justify using a gun in the first place. (Not to mention that only works in the movies.)

Most quality defensive firearms are designed to be carried with the manual safety in the FIRE position, if they have an external safety to start with. That's how police carry them, almost without exception. The guns have automatic safeties that only disengage when the trigger is pulled. My S&W 9mm has three safeties--the manual safety/decocker, used to disable the the gun when it's not holstered, or when reholstering; an internal firing pin block that makes the pistol completely drop-safe and impact-safe (you could throw it off a building loaded, with the safety off, and it wouldn't go off); and a magazine disconnect that disables the gun when the magazine is removed.

A gun is not a magic talisman; if you are oblivious to your environment until someone pulls a knife on you, a gun won't help. However, a gun can be a useful defensive tool in grave circumstances. I expect never to have to use it, but can do so competently if necessary.

FWIW, my father had a "save" via a firearm in the mid-'70's, when I was a child. He never had to actually draw the gun; the bad guys saw it, looked at each other, told him to "have a nice day," and left.

[ismnotwasm]

52. Thank you

That's good information. While I don't carry a gun, I know people who do, and I suppose I could have asked them. (Or looked it up) So I appreciate your answer.
I've always been in favor of gun safety and gun care classes, including safety measures, and what a gun does and how to use one, if one chooses to carry a firearm.

Interestingly, when I was in nursing school, we all had to pick a community health project. We had two male student nurses, both gun enthusiasts who went to a shooting range and did their project on gun safety. They had information on safety measures, how to keep guns away from any children in the house etc. They used brochures and saftey products types (like gun locks, or locked boxes)
They were a little nervous, thinking that the information may be rejected because of the polarization of the issue, but they were very well received and had one of the most successful presentations in that rotation.

[Bosso 63]

39. I just got back from the range an hour ago.

We had a good time, my friend had a Kimber .45 and I used my Springfield XD 9mm; he is a much better shot than me, but my groups were pretty tight tonight, so I was happy. I like guns, and I own a number of them.
Until recently, I have been doing in home therapy for court mandated clients, I saw kids in gangs, domestic violence, the works, at night, in their neighborhoods. I never carried a gun, as I never felt the need to, but thats just me. I don't want to tell other people what they should do, but to me concealed carry is more trouble than its worth.

[Greyhound]

49. That's the real thing isn't it? Getting it out, loading it, wearing

clothes that make it possible to conceal then storing it every night. Gets old fast.

[ComerPerro]

42. Start packing. LOL

I think concealed carry is a horrible idea. Granted, making it illegal won't stop people who are already intent on breaking the law. But having it legal makes more people start carrying concealed weapons who otherwise wouldn't. It encourages them. And some people, certification or not, just aren't emotionally stable or mature enough to carry a concealed weapon.

[BushOut06]

43. The Constitution clearly allows regulation

Despite what the gun-nuts at the NRA will tell you, the Constitution clearly provides for gun regulation. It even uses the phrase "well-regulated militia". Even if you don't buy into the argument that the 2nd Amendment applies to the National Guard, it's quite clear that the framers meant for guns to be regulated. Which means that registation, ballistic ID's, teflon-coated bullet bans, etc are PERFECTLY LEGAL.

[Greyhound]

50. I think they said the militia was to be regulated. n/t

[blindpig]

46. I was very surprised here in SC.

When SC started it's conceal/carry program I was dead against it, and I worked at a gun seller(pawnshop). I foretold all kinds of horrors, shoot-outs at redneck bar, fatal road-rage, etc. None of this has come to pass. The state has apparently done an excellent job of screening out the nut cases.

I don't think that carry/conceal has done a thing to enhance public safety, but I don't think it has hurt a thing either. I do believe that the possibility of a gun in the home does dissuade many a small time crook from attempting burglary. For that purpose it is not required that all own guns, just that some might.

[Silverhair]

55. Screening out the nutcases is not that hard.

Usually they will have already done something violent and have a police record. Most CCW applications are for late middle aged 50+ people.

[Raydawg1234]

54. With all this crazy talk on right-wing radio, does anyone else think

that someday, the crazy right-wingers might explode? They are very well armed, why should they be the only ones with guns?

[donheld]

56. Lets go back to the day when

everybody had a gun on their hip. :eyes: