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gee double you bee Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 06:34 PM
Original message
Village Voice still has 10 questions about 911
I'm sorry if this has been posted, I don't have time to check (I know, I know, that's really lame, but I'm seriously out the door and wanted to get this out there)

1. Where was the "National Command Authority"?

There has never been a true accounting of why the nation's leaders were out of the loop for so long that morning. George W. Bush and his aides even have told different versions of how the president was actually informed of the first plane striking: The president claimed erroneously that he saw it on TV, while chief of staff Andrew Card said it was Karl Rove who told the president. According to the official version, after Rove told Bush, the president talked to then national-security adviser Condoleezza Rice. She told him about the crash but apparently did not know about the reported hijacking of American Airlines Flight 11, which military air defenses learned about 17 minutes earlier.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was informed of the second plane hitting the WTC—yes, the second plane—during his intelligence briefing but continued the briefing and was at his desk when Flight 77 struck the Pentagon.

Together, the president and secretary of defense are the National Command Authority that is supposed to lead the country in the case of military emergency. But Bush didn't get in touch with Rumsfeld until after 10 a.m., around the time the fourth and final plane crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. When Bush was criticized days after 9-11 for failing to return to Washington until more than 10 hours after the first attack, the White House claimed there had been a threat ("real and credible," in flack Ari Fleischer's words) to Air Force One. There was none. All the 9-11 Commission says of this phantom threat is that it was the product of "a misunderstood communication."

2. Who gave the order to try to shoot the planes down?

The commission is noticeably vague on this point. The official version says Dick Cheney told the military a little past 10 a.m. to shoot down a threatening plane, claiming that the president had given his approval for the order. But while a few people in the White House bunker noted a call between Cheney and Bush moments earlier, only Rice says she heard Cheney bring up the shoot-down order. Despite the fact that people at both ends of the call were taking notes, the commission found that "there is no documentary evidence of this call." Meanwhile, some of the fighter jets in the air over D.C. received no orders to shoot down planes, while other military aircraft got the OK from the Secret Service to fly "weapons free," which means they had wide authority to take out suspicious aircraft.

Since the military was given little or no notice about the planes, maybe it doesn't matter who authorized a shoot-down. But the record is unclear. Neither Cheney nor Bush testified under oath before the 9-11 panel, in public or private.

3. What exactly were all those firefighters doing in the towers?

Reports on the disaster reflect confusion over the exact mission of the firefighters who climbed the twin towers, many of whom died. The 9-11 Commission says fire chiefs decided early on that because the fire was so big, their job would "primarily be one of rescue." But NIST reports that some fire commanders thought their men would fight fires to save people trapped above them, and individual fire companies thought their mission was to "get up to the fire as soon as possible, put the fire out, and get ready for their next assignment." According to oral histories collected by the FDNY, some firefighters were told to head up the stairs carrying hoses, and others to drop their hoses in the lobby. Some were ordered simply to head up the stairs without a clear idea of where they were going or why.

While it is doubtless that first responders saved lives that day, it's not clear that there were many people left to be rescued when late-arriving firefighters began climbing the stairs, especially in the north tower. Mayors Giuliani and Bloomberg have said up to 25,000 people escaped the towers; NIST has put that figure at around 15,000—still a blessing. But NIST believes that 90 percent of those civilians who survived started descending both towers before the second plane hit. (About 1,000 of them were "mobility impaired" and needed help getting out.) Just shy of 2,000 of the roughly 2,150 civilians who died in the towers were trapped above the impact zones, with no chance of rescue.

4. Did anyone think the towers would collapse?

Reports on the FDNY response to 9-11 generally agree that, as the FDNY-commissioned McKinsey study put it, "Chief officers considered a limited, localized collapse of the towers possible, but did not think that they would collapse entirely." For some of the fire officers, that confidence might have been based on a misconception about how the towers were built: The FDNY chief of safety says in his oral history that he thought the towers were made of block construction, with a solid concrete core, so that fire crews would have at least three hours to work. In fact, the cores of the towers were sheetrock over steel. And the citywide safety chief in charge that day didn't know a plane had hit the north tower.

Evidently, fears about collapse evolved as the disaster wore on. Peter Ganci, the highest ranking chief and one of the 343 fire personnel who died, reportedly told the commander in the north-tower lobby at 9:45 a.m. that he might want to consider an evacuation—almost 45 minutes before that building collapsed. Assistant Chief Joseph Callan, the citywide tour commander that day, told investigators: "Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby I made a decision that the building was no longer safe and that was based on the conditions in the lobby—large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20-foot-high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking, there was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all fire department units to leave the north tower. Approximately ten minutes after that we had collapse of the south tower." Fire chiefs also received—just moments before the south tower fell—a report that someone from the city's Office of Emergency Management thought the towers weren't structurally sound. The source of that report is unknown.

6 more questions here: http://villagevoice.com/news/0549,murphy,70685,6.html

Peace!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. sssshhh
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. ..
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 07:22 PM by meganmonkey
}(

:popcorn:
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. those pesky questions!
you know it's that stuff right at the start of 9-11 or the iraq war that everyone{the media and the admin} just leaves unanswered.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. So do the people who lost loved ones. In fact, they have a lot more.

snip

Below are excerpts from the lists of questions the Family Steering Committee has submitted to the 9/11 Commission.

snip

http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html

You don't need any THEORY about what happened. Just look at the unanswered questions the one thing you'll then ask yourself is LIHOP or MIHOP.

No tinfoil required.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. 9/11 Families' Questions Were Mostly Unanswered--
see where 9/11 widows Mindy Kleinberg and Lorie van Auken rate the
responses (if any) of the 9/11 Commission to their questions:

http://www.justicefor911.org/Appendix4_FSCQuestionRatings_111904.php
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Thanks. I had lost that link. nt
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm going with the Popular Mechanics version
Our government has our best interests at heart, they would never do anything to harm it's citizens.:sarcasm: <------HEAVY
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Angry Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Parade and Reader's Digest would never steer us wrong either
:rofl::spray::crazy::spray::rofl::crazy:
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. village voice
interesting...:smoke:
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. Only 10 questions?? Give me another 30 minutes and I could have 100.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. Sheetrock over steel?
The FDNY chief of safety says in his oral history that he thought the towers were made of block construction, with a solid concrete core, so that fire crews would have at least three hours to work. In fact, the cores of the towers were sheetrock over steel.

Is that true? I always thought the cores were concrete as well, and that's one thing people point to when they say it was a controlled demolition.

If they were steel/sheetrock, that would explain a heck of a lot about the collapse.
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Concrete's too heavy for 110 floors
Just about everything over 6 storeys is mostly steel. Were they made from concrete or masonry, the bottom floors would consist almost entirely of concrete, in order to support the weight of the floors above. Codes generally require fire'proofing' of some sort over the steel, either sprayed on or enclosed in, among other things, sheetrock. Years of occupancy tend to mean that this fireproofing has been damaged, removed or altered, exposing the steel to direct heat from any burning building contents. Steel fails at ~1100 deg F, as it expands (coming out of true), and weakens. The two towers were unusual in design, in that they were supported by the building skin, rather than by interior iron work. In my professional opinion, as a degreed engineer and a career firefighter, that the two towers fell generally as described in the official literature.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Supported by building skin?
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 03:08 PM by petgoat
Then what were the 47 36" X 16" core columns for?

You point out that steel fails at 1100 degrees F
(480 degrees C). But NIST has no core steel showing
heating above 250 degrees C.

Perhaps your professional opinion has not considered these points:

1. The steel was removed and destroyed in such haste that
proper sampling could not be done. Every piece of steel was stamped
with an ID number, and thus the pieces that showed why the building
failed could have been recovered--but they weren't.

2. FEMA did not have proper access to the site, and even had trouble
getting access to the blueprints for their investigation.

3. The jet fuel fires burned out in ten minutes, according to NIST's
lead investigator. The fires had largely burned out by the time of the
collapses. Had the towers stood an hour longer, the stairways might have
been cleared and those in the upper floors rescued. Why was the wreckage
not studied throughly in a manner that would allow future structures of
this design to be more robustly constructed, and perhaps suggest retrofits
to existing structures (such as Sears Tower) to increase survival time?

4. NIST's computer modeling is truncated in space and time. It stops
just below the impact zone and it stops in time at the moment of collapse
inception. Thus is doesn't even try to explain

-- the rapid straight-down collapse
-- the "untilting" of the upper part of the south tower in violation of
the law of the conservation of angular momentum
-- the complete destruction of the building core built to take five times
the weight of the entire structure, which should thus have resisted
attack by a disorganized mass of rubble.

An excellent critique of the NIST report appears here:

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html

With all due respect I would submit that if you find the official reports convincing,
you have not very thoroughly studied the issue. I'm not saying I know what happened.
But I'm certainly dissatisfied with the investigation that has been done.




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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. eyewitnesses...
“We were the first ones in the second tower after the plane struck. I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the second trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building.” – Louie Cacchioli, 20 year veteran of the New York Fire Department, Engine 47, describing explosions in the South Tower before it’s collapse. (Unsigned. “Our Heroes/United in Courage” People.com 9/12/01; archived online at http://propagandamatrix.com/louie_cacchioli.htm and People Weekly 9/24/01)

“The building came down so orderly, floor by floor, that I presumed it was a controlled demolition. I hoped that it was. Maybe they got all the people out and now they’re bringing the building down to prevent mass casualties.”- WNYC radio reporter and NPR contributor, Beth Fertig (Bull, Chris, and Sam Erman, At Ground Zero: 25 Stories From Young Reporters Who Were There. New York: Thunder’s Mouth Press, 2002: 184

“There was an explosion – I didn’t think it was an explosion – but the base of the building shook. I felt it shake …then when we were outside, the second explosion happened and then there was a series of explosions…We can only wonder at the kind of damage – the kind of human damage – that was caused by those explosions – those series of explosions.” – Steve Evans, BBC employee commenting on the demolition of the South Tower. (Eyewitnesses Tell of Horror, BBC, September 11th 2001; online at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1537500.stm )

**********

Pat Zoda, Engine 7 FDNY: “Floor by floor, it started poppin’ out.”

Captain Dennis Tardio, Engine 7 FDNY: “It was like, it was if, it was as if they had detonated.”

Pat Zoda, Engine 7 FDNY: “Yeah, detonated.”

Captain Dennis Tardio, Engine 7 FDNY: “You know, as if there were a plan to take down a building, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom!”

Pat Zoda, Engine 7 FDNY: “All the way down. I was watchin’ it and runnin’.”

Captain Dennis Tardio, Engine 7 FDNY: “We ran.”

Pat Zoda, Engine 7 FDNY: “And then you just saw this cloud of shit chasin’, chasin’ you down.”

Unknown FDNY fireman, in uniform, but slightly off camera: “Where’d you go?”

Pat Zoda, Engine 7 FDNY: “You couldn’t out run it. I jumped behind a battalion car. I hid under the car. I was waitin’ to die.”

– Transcript of a segment of the Naudet brothers’ documentary film “9/11”. This segment was filmed inside the FDNY downtown Manhattan firehouse, housing FDNY Engine 7 and Ladder 1 on September 11th 2001. There are numerous other firefighters in the firehouse, including Nick Borrillo of FDNY Ladder 1, listening as Tardio and Zoda recount what they saw, heard, and felt as the North Tower of the World Trade Center was demolished. ( 9/11, The Filmmakers’ Commemorative DVD Edition, a film by Jules and Gideon Naudet and James Hanlon, 2001 Goldfish Pictures, Inc.)

*******

“There was smoke everywhere. I heard the bomb and saw both buildings crumble like biscuits.”- Nadine Keller, WTC demolition eyewitness. (Eyewitnesses Tell of Horror, BBC, September 11 2001; online at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1537500.stm )


“The collapse of the buildings appears ‘too methodical’ to be a chance result of airplanes colliding with the structures, said Van Romero, vice president for research at New Mexico Institute for Mining and Technology.
‘My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse,’ Romero said.” – Olivier Uyttebrouck, Explosives Planted In Towers, NM Tech Expert Says, Albuquerque Journal, 9/11/01; available online at http://propagandamatrix.com/Fire_Not_Extra_Explosives_Doomed_Buildings_Expert_Says.htm )


“A lead engineer who designed the World Trade Center expressed shock that the towers collapsed after being hit by passenger jets.
‘I designed it for a 707 to hit it,’ Lee Robertson, the project’s structural engineer said. The Boeing 707 has a fuel capacity of more than 23,000 gallons, comparable to the 767’s 23,980-gallon fuel capacity.
Another architect of the WTC, Aaron Swirski, lives in Israel and spoke to Jerusalem Post Radio after the attack: ’It was designed around that eventuality to survive this kind of attack.’ he said.
Hyman Brown, a University of Colorado civil engineering professor and the World Trade Center’s construction manager, watched in confusion as the towers came down. ‘It was over-designed to withstand almost anything, including hurricanes, high winds, bombings, and an airplane hitting it.’ He said.” – Christopher Bollyn, Eyewitness Reports Persist Of Bombs At WTC Collapse, American Free Press, 12/02/01; archived online at http://www.rense.com/general17/eyewitnessreportspersist.htm

“I remember getting a call from, uh, the Fire Department Commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire. I said, ‘you know we’ve had such a terrible loss of life. Maybe the smartest thing to do is, is pull it.’ And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse.” – Transcript of PBS interview with WTC leaseholder Larry Silverstein, delivering an explanation of unknown authenticity, as to how and why the decision was made to demolish WTC Building 7. (Originally broadcast on PBS, September 2003)

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Hope They Keep Asking
Until someone comes up with the answers.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. Will Bunch, writing for the Philly Daily News, had 20 questions
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/BUN309A.html

3. Who made a small fortune "shorting" airline and insurance stocks before Sept. 11?

On Sept. 10, 2001, the trading ratio on United Airlines was 25 times greater than normal at the Pacific Exchange, where traders could buy "puts," high-risk bets that the price of a company's stock will fall sharply. The next day, two hijacked United jetliners crashed, causing the company's shares to plummet and ultimately leading the airline into bankruptcy. CBS News later reported that at intelligence agencies, "alarm bells were sounding over unusual trading in the U.S. stock options market" on the day before the attacks. The unusual stock trading suggests that someone with a sophisticated knowledge of finance also had advance information about the impending attack. But two years later, no one has been charged in this matter, and officials have not indicated even if the probe is still open.

...

5. Did any of the hijackers smuggle guns on board as reported in calls from both Flight 11 and Flight 93?

Quite possibly. An internal Federal Aviation Administration memo written at 5:30 p.m. on the day of the attacks said that a passenger aboard American Airlines Flight 11 - Israeli-American Daniel Lewin - had been shot to death by a single bullet before the jet slammed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center. The FAA insists the memo was a mistaken "first draft," even though the alleged shooting is described in great detail. Aboard Flight 93, passenger Thomas Burnett told his wife, Deena, in a 9:27 a.m. cell-phone call: "The hijackers have already knifed a guy, one of them has a gun, and they are telling us there is a bomb on board."

6. Why did the NORAD air defense network fail to intercept the four hijacked jets?

During the depths of the Cold War, Americans went to bed with the somewhat reassuring belief that jet fighters would intercept anyone launching a first strike against the United States. That myth was shattered on 9/11, when four hijacked-jetliners-turned-into-deadly-missiles cruised the American skies with impunity for nearly two hours. Why did the North American Aerospace Defense Command seem unaware of literally dozens of warnings that hijacked jetliners could be used as weapons? Why does NORAD claim it did not learn that Flight 11 - the first jet to strike the World Trade Center about 8:45 a.m. - had been hijacked until 8:40 a.m., some 25 minutes after the transponder was shut off and an astounding 15 minutes after flight controllers heard a hijacker say, "We have some planes..."?

Why didn't the fighters that were finally scrambled at Otis Air Force Base in Massachusetts and Langley Air Force Base in Virginia fly at top, supersonic speeds? Why didn't fighters immediately take off from Andrews Air Force Base, just outside Washington, D.C.? Why was nothing done to intercept American Airlines Flight 77, which struck the Pentagon, when officials knew it had been had been hijacked some 47 minutes earlier? And why has no one been disciplined for the worst breakdown in national defense since Pearl Harbor?

much more ...

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/BUN309A.html
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
14. A link to this article was posted here before...
...it got moved to 9/11 forum obscurity by the moderators. They don't like it when the discussion turns too "conspiratorial" so please don't say anything too ... whatever it is they don't like, so people can learn about the existence of this article.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. kick nm
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Paul Thompson, you are very correct.. Even discussing the facts
puts the thread on thin ice.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. I have a few more questions....
The Failure to Defend the Skies on 9/11
-By Paul Thompson



http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essayairdefense
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. Question: Does Rupert Murdoch still own the VV?
I know he used to own it, but it seems I read it was sold again.

Anyone know?

And, if he DOES still own it, has he realized that, ultimately, BushCo. is bad for business? I mean, sure, the big corporations can pocket a mint in the short-term, but when you rape a country and its citizens for so long, the bell curve starts going back on the down slope.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
21. .
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