Bad looters, turnstyle jumping bulky jackets, and screaming I have a bomb.

[endarkenment]

Anyone else see a pattern of disinformation that accompanies the outrageous acts of the state? Is the truth just a big problem that is dealt with it seems automatically, unhesitatingly, with self serving cover your ass lies?

Was "we made a mistake", "our officers panicked", "we are sorry and extend our condolences to the family" just not part of the program?

[GrumpyGreg]

1. What outrageous acts of the state?

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. The immediate reaction is for them to lie their ass off

They learned this from jr. It has aways worked for jr, so it has become official policy.

[MnFats]

3. well, umm. yes, it's a tragedy that the guy died but..

....in the real world you don't shout that you're carrying a bomb in a crowded aircraft.
....sorry but I don't think this can be added to the list of 'outrageous acts of the state.'
....I flew out of Miami Intnl yesterday. People were fucking frightened, and not because an outrageous act of the state was happening.
.....A tragedy, yes, but....

[Hello_Kitty]

4. I agree with you.

It's a tragedy that the man lost his life but what he did in known in law enforcement parlance as Suicide by Cop.

[leftstreet]

7. Do you have a link that says he shouted he had a bomb?

This is the first I've heard of any witnesses on the plane saying he shouted he had a bomb.

The only official stmt so far has been from the head of the Air Marshal Service, James Bauer.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec05/miami_12-7.html

JAMES BAUER: At approximately 2:10 this afternoon, American Airlines Flight 924 was boarding at Gate D.-42 -- it was in the boarding process. An individual later tentatively identified as Rigoberto Alpizar, age 44, was boarding that aircraft as well.

At some point, he uttered threatening words that included a sense that, in fact, that he had a bomb. There were federal air marshals on board the aircraft. They came out of their cover, confronted him, and he remained noncompliant with their instructions.

As he was attempting to evade them, his actions caused the FAM's to fire shots and, in fact, he is deceased.

The Miami-Dade Police Department responded to this event and in fact are conducting the shooting investigation.

The FBI also responded to this, and a crime was committed aboard an American carrier aircraft and they have jurisdiction in that matter, and to see whether or not there's a nexus to terrorism.

[MnFats]

9. news google 'Miami International' and you'll find hundreds...

[leftstreet]

12. Doesn't work. No links to actual witness accounts.

:shrug:

Just a repetition of variations of the official stmt from "officials."

[unblock]

10. trained professionals should know better

there are probably 3,000,000 people with mental illness for every 3 terrorists.

i can understand untrained people getting scared when a delusional man freaks out like that.
but the air marshalls should know that the guy is FAR more likely to be delusional than to be a terrorist, and they their training should teach them how to make that distinction.

in the real world, the government doesn't kill people for doing something stupid or even for scaring a lot of people.


this is exactly what a culture of fear leads to, senseless killings because the "fear" seems to justify killing.

let's not lose sight of the fact that there was no bomb, there was no danger. there was only fear.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unblock]

18. you should learn more about mental illness before justifying lethal action

i'm vastly simplifying here, but the mind that decides to skip necessary meds is a mind in the grips of a disease that twists rational thought. he was clearly not in full control of his actions, as he obviously wasn't even perceiving reality properly.

in this case, there were quite a number of clues that a trained professional should have picked up on that this was not a terrorist but a mentally ill person suffering from a delusion.

- terrorists don't announce the bomb (they just detonate it, or plant it and leave) unless they are trying use the threat as coercion, in which case they won't detonate it until they've at least announced their demands
- a terrorist wouldn't run FROM a plane into the jetway to detonate the bomb
- a terrorist isn't likely to have a wife shouting 'my husband, my husband' running after him
- other passengers noted that he was 'acting crazy'. if lay people can pick up on that, the trained professionals certainly should.

in general, this kind of delusion is FAR more likely than a terrorist attack. terrorist attacks are amazingly rare, but paranoid delusions are quite common.

[Deja Q]

20. I hate to say it, but he still has a point.

I've made many of the same arguments myself.

And a sufferer of depression and PTSD myself, there are times I would be tempted to yell out something stupid just so somebody else could end it... and I've forgotten to take my meds on some days too.

It was a nasty accident, this incident. But the prevailing circumstances made the time to think impossible. One second too late and it wouldn't make a difference.

(of course, everyone says "How could he have a bomb?" The media has put up a lot of reports since 9/11 on how things have been able to gtet past the security gates. I don't know. Neither did the marshall. In another time and place, you bet people would have thought things though. )

And you are rationalizing. Though I will admit the marshall probably forgot to drank his coffee too.

Still, the guy who said it was crazed - allowing him to run amok around unchecked would not have been good either.

Of course, nobody thought a terrorist would use a plane to hit a big building, so the excuse that somebody waas yelling "My husband!!!!!!!!!!" is void. Accomplices needn't be male, especially in this day and age. Or anything appearing rational either. (though the chances are the guy is a genuine nut and not a terrorist, you bet terrorists will do new and different things to take control. Or attempt to.)

Also, many lay people are naive (I probably won't use the word "idiot" this time). As are many professionols. This is because, no matter how much time a person can think about something, the core issue is still human nature. And I can't think of anything more random and un-definable than that.

[unblock]

23. at a minimum, training should ask for more evidence of a bomb

if dynamite and wires and buttons were visible, that's one thing. but when there's no such evidence other than words, that not only makes the existence of an actual bomb highly questionable, but more important, it makes the imminent need to shoot even more questionable.

[Bluerthanblue]

22. not only that,, but he may not have had a choice about his meds-

his wife, who works for an 'advocacy group' had her laptop, purse, and several other personal items stolen while in south america- The husband was greatly disturbed by this event- It is possible his meds were stolen too- the trip was from what it sounds like was indeed the 'trip from hell- and TO hell'-

If it was so evident this fella was as upset as he was even at the gate why the hell did those in power let him get on? I can't blame his wife- i CAN and DO blame those who were in authority, and power- the power to KILL or deny entry onto a flight for this mans untimely death- and the suffering of his wife, as well as the traumatization of all the other passengers on this flight.

[Ladyhawk]

24. The disease itself can make people skip their meds.

Mentally ill people are likely to even simply forget.

A couple of years ago, I learned what it's like to make extremely bad decisions as a result of mental illness. I did things I would never have done had I been well. My actions--driving under the influence--endangered lives. I'm lucky that the cops who found me realized something was wrong besides a simple DUI. I'm not going to relate details, but because I was sick, it never even occurred to me that I was driving under the influence until the cops stopped me! I was completely out of my head. Up until that point I hadn't realized that things like that can really happen. A part of me figured it was just an excuse made up by folks who do bad things when under the influence. No way! Because I was mentally ill I overdosed. Because I overdosed I somehow thought it might be a really good idea to get into my car and drive.

Interesting that the cops treated me better than the health care system did when I was passed into their care. I still shudder when I think of what happened next. :(

[Tempest]

13. Witnesses are saying he never said he had a bomb

There's a thread in LBN on this.

[MercutioATC]

19. ONE witness said that.

I'm sure we'll have more passenger statements in a few days.

[Tempest]

21. Not ONE witness interviewed said they heard the word "bomb"

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/08/airplane.gunshot/index.html

[Xenotime]

5. Exactly...

funny how they are NEVER "at fault". That's because they can "write it off"

[MisterP]

6. and once those concepts are in the public consciousness, they never ever

depart, regardless of subsequent admissions

[Karenina]

8. How is it they were able to hear

"I have a bomb" and unable to comprehend his desperate wife's screams of "He's sick?" Selective hearing? :shrug:

[MnFats]

11. if i'm counting on these marshals to protect me...

....I want them to err on the side of taking the word of the guy claiming to have a bomb.
....suppose, just suppose, that she is a co-suicide bomber.
....stranger things have happened.


OK, now let the flaming begin in earnest...

[Solon]

15. OK, let me see if I got this straight...

In the UK, brown people get shot, several times in the head, while ALREADY on the ground, cover story commences making up all sorts of shit to justify, check.

In the US, the mentally ill and those with chemical imbalances, imagine a Diabetic with low sugar on this plane, get shot, and again a cover story commences to justify the shit that lead up to the killing, check.

ON EDIT: Also, Gods forbid that someone on a plane gets claustrophobic or develops a panic attack.

Does anyone feel safer now?

[Tempest]

14. Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1974759

[leftstreet]

16. Thanks for the link

[chat_noir]

25. the absolute best refutation of the "official story":

If the passengers had heard him say that he had a bomb, wouldn't they have panicked and tried to get off the plane?!

[G_j]

26. it was later learned that most all of the NO horror stories: rape, etc.

could not be verified in any way.
Now I'll bet you millions of people still believe these racist concoctions.
This makes me sick!
Yes, I believe there are patterns here.