you can ignore Christ's teachings, but don't call his birthday a holiday

[mopaul]

you can ignore jesus when he said help the poor and love thy neighbor and you can bastardize his admonitions about peace on earth and turning the other cheek etc., but don't dare say 'happy holidays'. you can kill innocent children every day but don't ever say happy holidays. and you can torture prisoners of war to death but don't dare say happy holidays. jesus would be highly offended if you did.

[Deja Q]

1. Nominated.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Straight Shooter]

2. I don't think Jesus ever took a day off for his birthday.

So why should we? ;)

[mopaul]

3. every year from now on you will buy gifts on my birthday

surely you remember this admonition?

[Straight Shooter]

9. Somehow ...

that slipped my mind. Can you please provide the scripture, mopaul? ;)

[ashling]

18. I don't think Jehova's Witnesses

celebrate Christmas

[JuniperLea]

4. Ermmm.... when is his birthday exactly?

He's probably already offended that we grouped his birthday with Pagan holidays.

Sorry, dude. It's "happy holidays" for me always, unless I'm with a group of Christians. I have a lot of Jewish friends that would be horribly offended if I were to wish them a Merry Christmas. Hell, one sweet, little old Jewish lady I know (who manages metal and punk bands and teaches at her local synagogue) is offended when she hears a rock tune on the radio that has a Christian message... even if it's old testament;)

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. So Metallica's "Creeping Death" isn't one of her favorites?

Slaves
Hebrews born to serve, to the pharaoh
Heed
To his every word, live in fear
Faith
Of the unknown one, the deliverer
Wait
Something must be done, four hundred years

So let it be written
So let it be done
I'm sent here by the chosen one
So let it be written
So let it be done
To kill the first born pharaoh son
I'm creeping death

Now
Let my people go, land of goshen
Go
I will be with thee, bush of fire
Blood
Running red and strong, down the nil
Plague
Darkness three days long, hail to fire

So let it be written
So let it be done
I'm sent here by the chosen one
So let it be written
So let it be done
To kill the first born pharaoh son
I'm creeping death

Die by my hand
I creep across the land
Killing first born man
Die by my hand
I creep across the land
Killing first born man

I
Rule the midnight air the destroyer
Born
I shall soon be there, deadly mass
I
Creep the steps and flood final darkness
Blood
Lambs blood painted door, I shall pass


So let it be written
So let it be done
I'm sent here by the chosen one
So let it be written
So let it be done
To kill the first born pharaoh son
I'm creeping death

[JuniperLea]

8. Oh, she's a huge Metallica fan!

And that song is pure Hebrew history.

I'm talking about things by bands touted as Xtian bands... Jars of Clay, Creed, etc. That flood song by JOC, even though it was pure old testament, was intolerable to her because it was an Xtian band and she thinks it blasphemous that Xtians "think" they are worshiping the same God as the Jews.

[tocqueville]

11. explain to me why Jews are horribly offended

when Muslims aren't. I asked once a muslim guy and he told me that according to the Koran Jesus is a prophet and it's nothing wrong in celebrating his birthday, even if it's not custom in the Arab world.

Arafat used to go the Xmas midnight mass in Bethlehem as a representant of the Palestinian people.

all this doesn't make sense to me unless some elements try to incite to religious hatred for political purposes

[JuniperLea]

12. Because a big deal to the Jews

is their waiting for their Messiah. Christians claim Jesus is the King of the Jews, the Messiah they were waiting for. They feel it bastardizes their religion. Not the same with the Muslims because it's not so intertwined.

[tocqueville]

I imagine it applies to BIGOT Jews

here most of them don't give a fuck

Besides it stands in the Torah that Jesus was circumsized 8 days after, according to the tradition. And Alexandria Jews celebrated "the nativity" and it was the base of the Julian calendar... (just did some research)

all this shows how DANGEROUS it is to let small fanatic groups (of whatever religion) dictate the behaviour of the majority....

[JuniperLea]

19. One could say you are being fanatical for caring about

such a truly insignificant thing. What happened to live and let live? It's a main deal in their religion and their religion is their right. Jehovah's Witness' don't celebrate Christmas or pledge allegiance to the flag. That's their business and I would never say Merry Christmas to one or force them to do anything they didn't want.

As long as an action doesn't hurt anyone, jeez, lighten up fcol. Until we are tolerant of others we have no right to expect any civil liberty.

[mopaul]

20. one could

and one might be right

[tocqueville]

21. Who's forcing who ?

communautarism is a dangerous thing, specially when it has its roots in religion. Communities of that kind always ask for "exceptions" in name of their gods.

The results are often disastrous practices. It puts community against community instead of creating a melting pot.

Nobody is "forcing" anything on minorities, specially trivial things as a "merry Xmas". As I posted before this debate only exists in the US, it doesn't exist in Europe or if it does it's a rare exception. How come it doesn't exist here ? because we have a consensus about religion being a private matter and that NO INTERFERENCE should be made with daily affairs. And this consensus is respected by the 3 major religions.

Our religious fanatics are in minority and there are minimal risks they would ever seize power, for the simple reason that people don't want to hear that kind of BS. Obviously the results are disastrous in the US, since you have a preznit that listens to a "God" who dictates his actions with the blessings of hords of bigots, mostly Christian.

The people asking for "happy holidays" (I don't know where it started and who bought it) will have followers that will ask for more. A certain way of treating women, for example... They are already doing it.

FYI information Jehovahs witnesses are considered as a "dangerous sect" in several European countries. So is Scientology.

Tolerance is the respect of others. It works BOTH ways.

[JuniperLea]

40. Indeed, it works both ways

And until we are tolerant and respectful of others we cannot expect the same in return. Jesus was considered dangerous in his time too, duh, they killed him. Copernicus was nearly killed for saying the Earth was round! Maybe those things aren't done in Europe because the culture is older and wiser and more tolerant of the differences between people. Unless someone is physically harmed by someone else's beliefs, who the fek cares?

No one should force their beliefs on another and I think it's damn rude to shout Merry Christmas at Jews. And it would be mean to force a Hindu to eat beef. Their choice. It's still a free country.

Why all the hate for Jews? Not all Jews are what you say they are and there are plenty of non-Jews who are exactly like that.

[nicknameless]

17. Right! Wasn't there something about lambs being around at the time of

his birth (ie: Spring)?

Who wouldn't want to get in on that great Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice -- evergreen trees representing the endurance of life during the darkest time of year, and the returning of the sun after the day of Solstice?

Happy Holidays :hi:

[LincolnMcGrath]

25. I believe the shepards were still out.

My biblical guru friend tells me Jesus was born late Sept - early Oct.

[nicknameless]

27. I'm with catmother and the Pisces conclusion.

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news174.htm

"Christ's birth is said to have taken place while shepherds were watching their flocks at night, he notes, something that takes place at lambing time in the spring rather than in the depths of winter.

Moreover if the local inns were full, as Matthew insists, this would be because of the Jewish Passover, which also occurs in the spring.

Kidger thus concludes that Christ was born some time around March ... "

[jbnow]

31. Most of the evidence is for September

especially if you look for the signs the Magi were looking for. I tend to give the nod to those who know ancient history and astrology since there are historical clues and the magi were astrologers.

I keep trying to start a movement for a September celebration. Why deal with blizzard delayed flights and icy roads? No one listens.

[LincolnMcGrath]

32. Ah, nice to speak with a fellow historian.

The magi didn't find a baby in a manger either.

[nicknameless]

39. Other historians who concur that Spring was the likely time of birth:

http://www.ips-planetarium.org/planetarian/articles/yetanothereclipse/yetanothereclipse.html

Passover Birth. A Passover birth for Christ is likely for other reasons. It has already been noted that spring was lambing season when shepherds watched their flocks by night (Luke 2:8), that it would fit the timing of Gabriel's visit to Zacharias (Luke 1:5-13), and that it would explain the crowded inn (Luke 2: 7) if his birth was during Passover. <33> This last argument is especially strong because a registration that lasted at least several months would hardly have crowded Bethlehem at any time. On the other hand, Joseph, like all Jewish men before the destruction of the temple, was required to go to Jerusalem for Passover (also Pentecost and Tabernacles, Deut. 16:16), even with Mary so near to giving birth. It would have been logical to visit nearby Bethlehem to register to save making a special trip from Nazareth. The crowdedness suggests that Christ was born at most a day or so before Passover, because travelers would not need to arrive many days early.

http://www.ctainc.com/article.asp?ai=105

Scholars doubt that Jesus was born in December for several reasons. Luke tells us that shepherds were out in the fields at night, watching their flocks. This usually happened only in springtime, during the lambing season. Knowing this custom, then, leads us to place Jesus' birth in spring rather than winter. According to Old Testament law, the Passover lamb was to be a year old; the lamb slaughtered for one Passover festival was often born during the prior year's festival. This led to a Jewish legend that the Passover Lamb-Messiah-would be born during the Passover festival. Passover always occurs in Abib, the first month of the Jewish calendar, our March/April.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/xmas.htm

Although Christmas is celebrated on the 25th day of December each year, the exact date of Jesus' birth is unknown. Most biblical scholars agree that the birth, in fact, did not take place in December at all, but probably occurred during the spring of the year. The Gospel of Luke states that the shepherds to whom the announcement of the birth was made were watching theirs sheep by night (Luke 2:8) which would suggest the lambing time (the spring). Only then did shepherds bother to guard their flocks around the (p. 206) clock. In winter, for example, the sheep would have been kept in the corral.


... A Google search yields many additional hits.

[tocqueville]

6. doesn't holiday mean "Holy Day" ?

this discussion blows my mind. I think it only goes on in the US.

in Europe it's Joyeux Noël, God Jul, Buon Natale, Frohe Weihnachten.. etc... it's the time of the year, doesn't matter what religious meaning it has... Even my Arab neighbours put up Xmas decorations on their shops...

I never heard about anyone being offended by a "Joyeux Noël" even if the person isn't Christian...

oops I forgot that I live in a secular country

[mopaul]

10. only in the dictionary

holiday
8 entries found for holiday.
To select an entry, click on it.
holiday<1,noun>holiday<2,intransitive verb>Holidaybank holidaybusman's holidayHigh Holidaylegal holidayRoman holiday

Main Entry: 1hol·i·day
Pronunciation: 'hä-l&-"dA, British usually 'hä-l&-dE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hAligdæg, from hAlig holy + dæg day
1 : HOLY DAY
2 : a day on which one is exempt from work; specifically : a day marked by a general suspension of work in commemoration of an event
3 chiefly British : a period of relaxation : VACATION -- often used in the phrase on holiday; often used in plural

[China_cat]

7. I only found out today that christmas

has only been a PUBLIC holiday since 1966. It was part of the information on a guy suing over it.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1998/08/05/loc_xmassuit05.html

" A law enacted in September 1966 made Christmas and nine other days public holidays."

[catmother]

13. i thought jesus was a pisces. so how could he have been born

in december?

[Canuckistanian]

14. It's not even his real birthday

It was really sometime in October or November as I heard sometime.

And besides, nothing in the Scriptures says anything like "Thou shalt honor the anniversary of His birth".

In fact the whole concept of a "birthday" as a is a modern one. Back in Christ's day there wouldn't even have been reliable calendars. Even if there were, they'd be used by scholars and learned people only.

[JuniperLea]

15. The only thing close to a birthday in ancient times

Was a celebration 100 or so days after a baby is born. With infant mortality rate so high, it was a good sign when they lived that long.

[mopaul]

16. when one is born weep, when one dies, rejoice

also somewhere in the bible, or so my mom says.

[Clara T]

22. And Jesus Sayeth:

[Raine]

23. Fundies are just so selective or

to put it another way they're...HYPOCRITES.

[donheld]

24. Great little rant

:kick:

[SPKrazy]

26. How very true!

The fundie, who would Jesus bomb crowd would be "highly offended" by calling it happy holidays, but not about killing.

And you are right, Jesus would not be offended, (my belief) by people not saying "Merry Christmas"

What kind of morons are shaping the debate in this country?

And how in the hell do they get away with it?

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Oh yes

Jesus would throw a total temper tantrum for sure. :sarcasm:

[bluedawg12]

29. December 25th was the Roman birthday of Mithras.

Just watching an A&E thing on Jeshua, and how many of the elements of modern tradition comes from prior pagan ones.

[Quixote1818]

34. Merry Mithras and a Happy New Year to you!

:toast:

[Swamp Rat]

30. Jeebus hates you!

If you say "happy holidays," Jeebus is gonna kill you!

[DanCa]

33. Say Happy Birthday to a fundie on xmas & they'll look at you cross eyed.

Try to make a game out of it and see how long before thier brain cells connect when they figure out your talking about jesus. Trust me it's a riot.

[Quixote1818]

35. Isn't Christmas from the rebirth of the sun after the Winter Solstice?

You can imagine how fucking scary it must have been watching the Sun getting lower and lower in the sky every day in late December. You would probably watch it very carefully to see if it was going to disappear and the world go dark forever. So, when one day it didn't get any lower (the solstice, sol=sun, stice=still) you would be really fucking happy. Now a couple more days go buy and you notice the sun is getting higher and then it's time to PARTY!!!!! God fucking dam, it's the re-birth of the son!!!!!! Merry Christmas and Pagan New Year!!!!!


Those darn Christians stole Christmas!:argh:

[Miss Chybil]

36. Jesus was born in the spring. I wonder if he's offended we celebrate

his birthday on a pagan holiday? Ah, no matter. Merry Easter!

[Neil Lisst]

37. What IS Christmas?

Christmas was created to bootstrap Christianity onto pagan beliefs. The early Catholic Church, which was Christianity after about 325 of the Common Era, appropriated pagan myths, legends, and celebrations into things like the Madonna, Christmas, Easter.

That's where we got the Easter Bunny!

Christmas is a ripoff of winter solstice. Jesus was certainly NOT born on December 25th, and if he had been, celebrating the date would be the last thing he'd do. In fact, he'd give us all a good ass chewing for needing a day to do what we should do every day.

[NMMNG]

38. Your post made Jebus cry, but I nominated it anyway

;-)

[Czolgosz]

41. Republican Jesus

[Old and In the Way]

42. What's the problem with Happy Holidays?

Main Entry: 1hol·i·day
Pronunciation: 'hä-l&-"dA, British usually 'hä-l&-dE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hAligdæg, from hAlig holy + dæg day
1 : HOLY DAY
2 : a day on which one is exempt from work; specifically : a day marked by a general suspension of work in commemoration of an event
3 chiefly British : a period of relaxation : VACATION -- often used in the phrase on holiday; often used in plural


Seems to me it is perfectly appropriate from a religious observation standpoint.

[Fountain79]

43. Interestingly enough

Some of the earlier colonists such as the Puritans of the Northeast did not put much emphasis on Christmas.

[Czolgosz]

44. Jesus Saves!