Education: breeding of conservatism

[katym]

Recently had a discussion with a conservative foe, who wrote:
_________________________
you cannot argue issues from a liberal position. You have to argue issues with facts, and then see where it leads, and facts always lead to conservative positions.

The fact is that an education leads to conservative thought, but an indoctrination leads to liberal thinking.

That's just the way it is. You're wrong because you were indoctrinated; it's not your fault.
________________________

Wondering - as being a college student, I'm often accused of being the atypical liberal brainwashed student. If most in higher education are apparently liberals, then his point is baseless.

Does anyone know of statistics on this? Higher education and percentages of left vs right?

[rockribbedliberal]

1. Um ... that's not even an argument ...

What's funny is that your acquaintance's tripe is exactly the sort of thing you hear from people who unquestioningly accept dogma and don't think. "Arguments require facts. Facts always favor conservatives. Facts never favor liberals. Therefore, conservatives automatically win every argument. When conservatives are educated, we call it 'education.' When liberals are educated, we call it 'indoctrination.'"

See what I mean? It's a meaningless argument because it's essentially a tautology, the conservative's favorite argument. What's right is right. What's wrong is wrong. The war is just and good because it is.

They like changing terms, too. The facts don't support them? No problem. Call the facts lies or spin.

[newyawker99]

12. Hi rockribbedliberal!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Arkana]

2. That's a blanket statement, backed up by absolutely no facts

that your friend resorted to in an attempt to win the argument. Ask him to prove that facts always lead to conservative positions. Show him the REAL stats on what's going on in Iwreck.

Once you force him to prove it, he will be forced to do what every other slimy RW sleazeball does when in that situation--bullshit.

[BattyDem]

4. Exactly!

Ask your friend to provide some facts that support his statements and conclusions. When he stutters and stammers while trying to bullshit his way through an answer, calmly ask him, "So ... tell me again which one of us was indoctrinated into a particular line of thinking?" :evilgrin:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

3. And if he's implying that emotional thinking = liberal,

then just throw the Terri Schiavo situation (and Republican reaction) back in his face.

[Jim__]

5. "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Accepting Nietzsche's claim, it's easy to see why this "conservative" thinks facts always lead to conservative positions. But that's clearly a delusion; and if he's thought about it at all, he should recognize this.

Take your question: Does anyone know of statistics on this? Higher education and percentages of left vs right?. There have been a number of different claims made over the years as to the numbers of liberals and conservatives, right vs left in higher education - but how can you possibly determine that? What's left? What's right?

[pretzel4gore]

6. in 'lies my teacher told me' jim loewen(?) gives a startling example

the example was a poll taken of the results of a study done on the question 'do the higher educated/richer oppose the vietnam war in greater numbers then the less educated/poorer?' The assumption being on the part of the respondent to the poll that the higher educated were naturally more liberal and therefore doves, in contrast to the lower classes. Well, they were dead wrong! (get the book to see the actual statistics, it's quite amazing) ...it was discovered that it was the less educated, and those with less income, who overwhelmingly opposed the war, and were doves, while those with higher ed/incomes were overwhelmingly hawks!....But despite this, it is one of the big lies that the less educated people are, and the poorer they are, means they are cruder and crueler, more pro death penalty and for harsher prison regimens, pro war etc, but it simply isn't true. And never has been true (this is in part why the repukes ARE FORCED to lie about what the people want, or support)

[meow2u3]

7. Conservatives forever project their own irrational thinking onto liberals

Here's the same argument, only translated from conservativese to English:

you cannot argue issues from a conservative position. You have to argue issues with facts, and then see where it leads, and facts always lead to liberal or moderate positions.

The fact is that an education leads to liberal or moderate thought, but an indoctrination leads to conservative thinking.

That's just the way it is. You're wrong because you were indoctrinated; it's not your fault.

[dogfacedboy]

8. I've been told I'm brainwashed, as well.

I'm not sure if it's a new tactic of the right, or if this is just coincidence. On three different occasions over the past forty-five days, or so, I've had the same conversation. Three different right-wingers that I work with, whom I highly respect as co-workers, have told me that I have "a good head on my shoulders", but I have been "brain-washed into thinking too much with my emotions, politically speaking." That's what "makes me believe" I'm a liberal, or so I've been told.

Of course, my esteemed colleagues are all insane, politically speaking.

[Qibing Zero]

10. It's a result from when most colleges turned away from religious roots...

..and moved more toward learning institutions, and the left. You'd actually be very surprised to see how many colleges were religious bodies only 150 years ago. There were secular colleges around, but very very few.

It's been going on for a long time as far as I know, and college students always get flak for the fact that a lot of professors are leftists.

I always get to throw the bastards for a loop though, because while I'm of college age, I'm not actually in college. Also, my family has deep fundie roots, and yet I'm a self-taught progressive agnostic. Yes, they babble.

[Qibing Zero]

9. See, there's a confusing part about that.

To them, indoctrination (as in what you were taught as truth as a child when you had very little perspective and knowledge) is actually fact, and fact (the real knowledge you accumulate by learning and becoming educated and experiencing things) is actually indoctrination because you're not getting it straight from parents, family or tradition. See, the emphasis is on the assumption that you should only be raised however your family opts to raise you, and your outside experiences should never challenge that.

The biggest key for me is to find out if people are willing to try and expand their knowledge, or to see if they think they have all they need. Usually the conservative is the one that isn't actively seeking to learn, explore, etc... and instead has convictions that they won't give up, regardless of how much the facts seem to be against them. Their own 'facts' are all that matter, of course. This is just so telling of people...

Also, as a side-effect of their actual indoctrination, their mind refuses to accept any facts that are contrary to the shield it puts up. I speak from experience on that one, as growing up I had the same problem - even though I rejected most everything, there were still some things that got through that I didn't even realize until years later.



More toward your question though, I've always attributed conservatives thinking they're smarter/better people based on the fact that ones that think that way seem to most often fit the successful white male 'anyone can succeed like me if they try hard enough' businessman. They seem to always have religious undertones, which makes them think they have the high road on morality, while at the same implying a social darwinistic type of view about things.

Most professors tend to lean left for obvious reasons. They are the ones actually teaching the people out in the 'real world' what they know, remember. They're not stupid, and usually they have well-rounded educations. Honestly though - and I shouldn't even have to say this - it takes a hell of a lot more brainpower to study and teach, say, philosophy, than it does to win in the crapshoot business world.

[TahitiNut]

11. Right wing zealots think if they hold an opinion long enough ...

... it magically becomes a fact. While they may believe this is how coal becomes a diamond, it's actually how dung becomes coprolite.

In other words, they don't know facts from feces. :shrug: They pull both out of their ASSertions.

[katym]

13. Thanks greatly! Still waiting on...

... his reply to the call for facts on education breeding conservatism...I've got the book on order, I'd love to see the actual figures on such thinking, because this comes up so regularly in the life of a college liberal.
Regardless of the fact I grew up in rural IL (ie, die hard republican, right wing zealots...they held a party at school the day clinton was called to trial) I'm called brainwashed and now their much loved word, indoctrinated.