Economic apartheid: Americans losing ground FAST. What should be done?

[prolesunited]

The United States is now the third most unequal industrialized society after Russia and Mexico.

Since 2001, when the economy hit bottom, the ranks of our nation's poor have grown by 4 million, and the number of people without health insurance has swelled by 4.6 million to over 45 million.

Income inequality is now near all-time highs, with over 50 percent of 2004 income going to the top fifth of households, and the biggest gains going to the top 5 percent and 1 percent of households. The average CEO now takes home a paycheck 431 times that of their average worker.

Source of info:
http://www.alternet.org/walmart/27168/



So, here's some questions:
Is this growing gap important? Why or why not?

What will happen if it's not addressed?

Is it the result of a lazy, ill-trained workforce that gets what it deserves or are other factors involved? Name them.

What is the role of Americans in creating this situation?

What can our elected officials do?

Feel free to add your own thoughts. I'm just trying to get a discussion going.

[kenny blankenship]

1. You won't be allowed to DO anything about it

except maybe pray for revolution in your lifetime.

[prolesunited]

11. I strongly disagree

Prayer is not action and revolution is seldom a solution.

[kenny blankenship]

15. When you strongly disagree with ideas

I'll begin to take you seriously.

[prolesunited]

16. Whatever

If you don't take me seriously, why are even on this thread.

I just simply challenged your statement. Are we all to throw our hands up in the air and let this happen? All action is futile? Or, are you actively planning a revolution?

[aquart]

2. Get rid of BushCo.

Pass RIGID environmental laws which will force corporations to fund research into the most economical ways of meeting the requirements. No more voluntary shit. You have to.

Pass carrot and stick legislation that penalizes offshoring and rewards jobs created in the United States.

And viciously target the pork barrel people as unpatriotic in a time of American need.

I'm not in a nice mood.

[kenny blankenship]

6. The big steps that abolished national economic sovereignty

perhaps forever, and destroyed the ability of middle and lower income constituencies to petition the political system for relief and and a modicum of fairness, were all taken before Bush came to power. The Bushler Imperium is a consequence of the New World Economic Order not the cause of it.

[durablend]

7. And get the DLC the fuck out of the party...

Them and the other "pwned by corporate" (D) stooges (Biden D-MBNA, etc) that are complicit with furthering the corporate dictatorship and tossing the rights of the US citizenship out the window in lieu of profit profit profit

[Gloria]

3. Interesting discussion this AM on Radio Canada with a prof from

Montreal and one from U of Michigan. It was about voting...how in Canada, although declining, is not skewed as much as the US in terms of class. In other words, more poorer Canadians vote than do Americans. It's not race biased either. The U of M prof said because they don't vote, the issues of the poorer citizens are not on the agenda. He said you never hear talk about helping renters, but you do hear about helping homeowners.

Which made me wonder--somehow, to get more of the poorer voters to the polls...but in such a way to target them more locally, perhaps, so that the Repugs don't start the class warfare crap. Which they, ironically, are so good a waging with all this crap about the wealth tax cuts, etc.

Maybe by identifying "poor issues" with the middle class-in terms of them sliding--instead of what we see now, that a lot of middle class voters ID themselves as richer than they are, so vote Republican....

[izzybeans]

4. The gap is a structural aspect of the modern economic system

The gap often increases as total wealth of a nation increases as a consequence.

It's not uniquely an american problem, but we have done little in the recent past to deal with issues of poverty.

What to do? Democratize the workplace, flatten the pay scales, regulate the risks, and enable collective securities. Abolish the managerial class as a seperate and superior entity, get rid of the CEO, s(he) is no longer necessary, just as the feudal lord was unnecessary. Hence change the structure of the workplace, and thus the economy. Regulate it so that it is no longer immoral/amoral. Institute some measures of collective decency.

[DBoon]

5. If it is not addressed

we become a backward, impoverished nation, based on a plantation economy where a small number of fabulously wealthy people treat the majority as virtual slaves.

We will become what the nations of Latin America have been trying so hard to escape.

[LiberalEsto]

8. grab a fork

eat the rich

[prolesunited]

12. A cute one-liner

But how about some substantiative thoughts?

[Igel]

9. Some guesses.

Is this growing gap important? Why or why not?
Probably not, as long as the perception is that "we" (i.e., the overwhelming majority) have sufficient amounts of stuff or have sufficient opportunity. Perceived oppression isn't the same as poverty; perceived oppression is denial of not having expectations judged to be reasonable fulfilled. We don't object, by and large, when our neighbor has two cows and we have none, if we think we have a good chance of getting three; if we think we can never get even one and we deserve them more than he does, then we want to steal one or both of his; if we think that the problem is that he doesn't deserve his, then we kill his and nobody has a cow.

What will happen if it's not addressed?
Depends on how public perception of expectations goes. Most revolutions end with very bad short-term consequences, and it's not the upper classes that usually suffer the most (with some exceptions for notable individuals), but the middle and upper-middle classes.

Is it the result of a lazy, ill-trained workforce that gets what it deserves or are other factors involved? Name them.
There's no way of knowing without looking at more detailed numbers. Most of the growth in the population in the last 10 years has been through immigration, largely illegal or from lesser-developed countries. These don't provide us with a ready source of engineers and chemists. Some sections of the US population--specifically those with higher reproduction rates--also have a statistically higher HS and college non-completion rate. *This* can have horrible consequences, since they tend to have the same expectations as the rest of society, coupled with an inability to do what's required of the rest of society for meeting those expectations.

What is the role of Americans in creating this situation?
Considerable. "We" pushed free-trade, which means, in effect, exporting wealth and wealth-production, while at the same time maintaining or increasing domestic expectations. We became less risk averse--and this extends to the boardroom. When you see a board offering $100 million to keep a CEO or get a 'proven' COO, you're talking aversion to risk and inconvenience. I've seen what CEOs do, and I doubt I could do it, and I've experienced my own risk aversion and seen how debilitating it is.

What can our elected officials do?
Depends how much you want the government to regulate the economy and the personal lives of the population. Government workers have a conflict of interest: do they regulate for the benefit of the consumer or the stockholder or the politicians that hire them, or try to justify benefit to one as benefit to the other? Do you force somebody to graduate high school and, in college, major in civil engineering instead of political science--and do you want that person designing your bridges? Do you want to regulate domestic prices or subsidize imports at the risk of a trade war?
There's always a provision in the 1845 Texas Constitution that I just read about that made banking illegal, if you want really radical options.

Feel free to add your own thoughts. I'm just trying to get a discussion going.
Should be an interesting, if unwieldy, discussion. I'll try to check back later.

edited to correct at least some misspellings and grammatical infelicities.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. answers

1. The growing gap is important, because the time will come when the majority of Americans won't have the funds to buy things. And the top 1% can't sustain the entire economy with their purchases.

2. If not addressed, I see a growing resentment of the superrich by the people who have lost their jobs and their middle class lifestyle.

3. The income gap is NOT the result of the workforce, whose productivity has increased as the number of workers has decreased. Globalization and the driving force to lower the bottom line so that the top CEOs can be enriched are the main factors for this. Corporate pirates who gut companies like Delphi are rewarded with bonuses and obscene salaries while they demand that the workers take drastic cuts in wages and benefits.

4. Americans who have indulged in mindless buying are, in part, responsible for this situation.

5. We need to elect people who are willing to enforce anti-trust laws against corporate amalgamation, and who will be willing to create laws that reign in corporate CEO salaries. They should insist that corporations pay their rightful share of taxes as well.

[Neil Lisst]

13. it starts at the top, with policy.

We have to get the pubs out of office before we can reverse the trend.

[newportdadde]

14. Is this growing gap important? Why or why not?

1) Yes it is important. Your seeing the slow sloughing off of the middle class. The middle class has been around in other societies, Roman etc to some degree but the US middle class was a unique animal which included a great number of members at one time. We are shifting out of our temporary anomaly and back to a more 1890s style of capitalism. Our standard of living is going down.

What will happen if it's not addressed?

2) Well thats hard to say eventually I think we will meet somewhere in the middle with say India as far as terms of standard of living goes. We also have some other factors involved.. the baby boomers as they retire.. their impact, the pain they will bring with health care demands, pensions etc. At the same time though with their group moving out of the workforce perhaps we will see a tightening of the number of employable workers which would help boost us back some.

You cannot push forever on this system.. there will come a day and we are starting to see it now a bit were the consumer(who drives most of our economy) can no longer keep up that level of spending.

This could take decades, its slow very very slow. Think of this as the slow decline over Rome or environmental creep that wiped out ancient societies and they never even knew it was happening because it was 'always that way'.

As people get more disgruntled they turn to things like faith. I see the numbers of born agains etc increasing. I see the right to some degree pulling more power from this section of people as it grows.

Is it the result of a lazy, ill-trained workforce that gets what it deserves or are other factors involved? Name them.

3) No I don't think the workforce can be pointed at here at least not entirely. The fact is simply an American worker requires XXX to live a 'normal' life in America therefore they demand more pay for a job someone else is willing to do cheaper because it costs YYY to live 'normal' in their country. Its a matter of cost.

I work in IT and am around a lot of onshore/offshore workers.. some are good but to be honest they make a lot of mistakes, a lot.. but they are also much cheaper. Its cheaper to make a mistake I fix then it is to have me do it right the first time.

What is the role of Americans in creating this situation?

4) Many roles. Our corporate greed cuts costs(outsource) to get more profit(don't pass it on). Consumers demand lower prices which also pushes outsourcing in this case the differences are passed on to some degree. American workers are too scared to fight and unionize they are unorganized and isolated. The cheese is all getting taken away while they focus on that one last piece hoping it will be theirs.

We can't seem to keep from buying shit we do not need and to going into hawk for it. We need it and we need it NOW. This is solely the American consumers fault.

What can our elected officials do?

5) Institute a policy of strict protectionism. Thats really about all thats left at this point, its too far in motion.

[DBoon]

17. We need another French Revolution

when the middle class gets tired of being opressed by the indolent rich and removes them from power

[prolesunited]

18. Why do people keep advocating revolution?

Are there no peaceful ways to resolve this?

[izzybeans]

21. The solution is in your screen name. nt

[Yupster]

30. Telly Savales is the solution?

Who's a thunk.

Oops - that's the post below, not the post above.

[Telly Savalas]

26. A few ideas

*Enforce a living wage by combining appropriate minimum wage laws with earned income tax credits

*Single-payer universal health-care. Over half of all U.S. bankruptcies are due to medical costs.

*Modify the tax code such that it encourages companies to provide good paying jobs in the United States instead of offshoring.

*While the removal of trade barriers should still be encouraged, our trade agreements need to be labor-friendly. If another country's "comparative advantage" is that they pay their workers 70 cents an hour, then products from that country shouldn't get sold in the U.S.

*Implement a generous maternity and parental leave policy. (Look to Canada's policy for guidance.) Not only will this ease the stress on working families, it tightens the labor market a bit which drives up wages.

That's just a start, and I'm not a policy wonk so I can't give ya too much more in the way of details. If the Progressive Movement doesn't have the political sway to get these implemented, then it certainly doesn't have enough power to make a revolution happen.

[freestyle]

19. Commit to public education, progressive taxation, living wage.

Those are a few ideas. Extreme class warfare is a fact of the corporatist economy we live in. The extremely rich are winning and consolidating their gains. This only works through brainwashing and/or suppressing large parts of the population.

An important step is education that teaches people to think and learn, not just be cogs in the machine. There are also frightening numbers of adults who do not even have basic skills.

Reintroducing more progressivity to the tax code, and applying the same rate regardless of source of income would also help greatly. Right now, non-work income is highly privileged over wage income. Corporate profits must also be taxed fairly, and progressively. People who work for a living are penalized. A dramatic increase in the minimum wage would also help.

[pitohui]

20. i can't imagine anything can be done

if we are not allowed universal health insurance, all else is moot

no honest working person can get an education and a job that can keep pace w. the double and triple digit increases in health care costs, the math doesn't work out

i see a country in which only stupid people save or invest, unless they are extremely wealthy, because saving or investing money as a middle class person just means you get to lose everything w.out ever having enjoyed it the first time someone in your family gets a serious illness or has a serious accident

lower middle class families are already there, we laugh at them for buying brand new clothing and cars on time, but at least if they have an emergency & declare bankruptcy, they've been able to enjoy the good life for a little while, if they denied themselves and had an emergency and declare bankruptcy, they never had any good times at all

since people are not serious abt demanding universal health care, it's pretty hopeless, most of us will die broke or as a burden on our families

[prolesunited]

28. I understand why some would think that

But, the reality is that you just dig the whole deeper. You can't spend like there is no tomorrow, because for many, tomorrow often comes and the pile of bills are due.

I've struggled financially for a long time in my life just to carve out a little bit of something for myself. I guess I was lucky that catastrophe did not strike, but if I had not scrimped and scraped, I would never have been able to buy a house.

I agree, though, that health insurance is a major issue. I'm paying $520 a month for COBRA and because of multiple chronic illnesses, I'm virtually uninsurable on the open market. However, because I made the right financial decisions earlier, I'm managing it until I can change the situation.

I think as more and more people are personally effected, attitudes will change. It's easy to ignore the problem until it comes to your doorstep.

[Theres-a]

29. Wow

That's what happened to me.I agree that without healthcare,only the very rich have a chance.

[leftofthedial]

22. why are you so upset?

it's just capitalism

raw, unfiltered, inevitable end stage of capitalism

We go through a phase like this every generation or so

what are you, a commie?

the end of laissez faire capitalism is one person owning everything

[prolesunited]

25. No, more of a socialist

Controlled capitalism for non-necessities, like clothing and entertainment goods, and public control or rigid government regulations on such things necessary for survival as water, heat, health care, pharmeceuticals, day care, higher ed, etc.

[Zhade]

23. Don't support those who put corporate profit before people.

For one, obviously, Republicans (duh), but this also means pro-Bankruptcy Bill/NAFTA/CAFTA/Etc DLC types.

[AirAmFan]

24. Rich-poor gaps are even much worse than most people think,

and they are getting wider and wider over time. This is the worst possible time for eliminating inheritance taxes, Dubya's number one legislative priority.

Poverty is passed from generation to generation in the US at much higher rates than almost anywhere else in the world. And racial gaps are wide and increasing in the US: 42 percent of African-Americans raised in the bottom tenth of income remain there as adults, but only 17 percent of white Americans.

More people need to know what even the ultra-conservative Wall Street Journal has published about the growing rich-poor gap and its sources in inherited wealth:

From http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05133/504149.stm :

"Despite the widespread belief that the U.S. remains a more mobile society than Europe, economists and sociologists say that in recent decades the typical child starting out in poverty in continental Europe (or in Canada) has had a better chance at prosperity. Miles Corak ... tweaked dozens of studies of the U.S., Canada and European countries to make them comparable. "The U.S. and Britain appear to stand out as the least mobile societies among the rich countries studied," he finds. France and Germany are somewhat more mobile than the U.S.; Canada and the Nordic countries are much more so....

In the U.S., race appears to be a significant reason that children's economic success resembles their parents'. From 32 years of data on 6,273 families recorded by the University of Michigan's long-running survey, American University economist Tom Hertz calculates that 17 percent of whites born to the bottom 10 percent of families ranked by income remained there as adults, but 42 percent of the blacks did.

As recently as the late 1980s, economists argued that not much advantage passed from parent to child, perhaps as little as 20 percent. By that measure, a rich man's grandchild would have barely any edge over a poor man's grandchild. "Almost all the earnings advantages or disadvantages of ancestors are wiped out in three generations," wrote Gary Becker, the University of Chicago economist and Nobel laureate, in 1986....

But over the last 10 years, better data and more number-crunching have led economists and sociologists to a new consensus: The escalators of mobility move much more slowly. A substantial body of research finds that at least 45 percent of parents' advantage in income is passed along to their children, and perhaps as much as 60 percent. With the higher estimate, it's not only how much money your parents have that matters -- even your great-great grandfather's wealth might give you a noticeable edge today. ...

[prolesunited]

27. Thank you for that link

I think the problem is that we are conditioned to believe the myth and ignore the reality.

[lovuian]

31. This is what causes Depressions!!!

We are in for some sad times!!!

[HereSince1628]

32. We just keep going remembering to apply the universal opiate.

Just keep letting the system redistribute wealth from the middle to the top until Americans will work for the same wage as the Indians and the Chinese.

BUT

Build more churches! And keep telling the people it's ok to be poor, so long as they are orderly and submissive, and don't rebel against the inequities because its passive behavior and submission to power that will win them their reward in an afterlife.