I Have A Moral Dilemma

[AutumnMist]

My best friend (we have been friends for 20 plus years) is HIV positive. He is a witty and great person who is like a brother to me. During a drive to the beach in Santa Monica he told me he was part of a bareback club. He doesn't use protection and doesn't like men who ask for it. He also doesn't tell most of his partners that he is HIV positive. His view is that they should use protection because HIV is a part of the culture. And if they don't....they are at a loss. Literally. He got very angry with me and told me I just dont understand what he is going through. Is that fair? I worked in a HIV clinic for almost four years and I am absolute on safe sex. We obviously are at odds. I love him, but I cannot tell him that this un-responsible behavior is alright. What would you do?
One of our friends is now HIV positive because of this and his take on it is that he screwed him....they should have known. I am heartbroken.

Advice? No flames please.

[timber84]

1. i don't even know what to say

[calico1]

2. I don't know what to say either.

I feel for you and I won't flame you but your friend is unspeakably irresponsible.

[pitohui]

3. no flames here

sadly not much advice either

you cannot control yr friend's sex life

i feel it was unfair for him to share this information, it puts you in the position of sitting by while people are infected & possibly killed, have to admit i would probably drop this friendship, what other option do you have? you can't play mommy & run around telling everyone you see him hit on that he is hiv-positive

[noamnety]

4. Wow

That's like saying it's okay to randomly shoot people in DC because people who live there know it's part of the culture, it's just a risk they assume.

[Caoimhe]

5. This is a crime

NO.. don't let your friend do this to people! He is committing a crime and not only that but it is just so incredibly wrong!

Does he want others to suffer along with him? I dont' get it.

Please tell all of your mutual friends about this. It is about saving lives, autumn. I am not even sure you shouldn't go to the authorities with the information. I know you don't want to get your friend in trouble but what he is doing is wrong on so many levels.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. To me it sounds like he is angry about having HIV and is being

passive aggressive about his grief and inflicting this disease on others. I understand his feelings but he has no right to make it easier for others to get this disease by being with him without giving them fair warning. :(

[timber84]

7. wow great advice

[GreenPartyVoter]

20. Well, it's not really advice. I am only guessing what is going on

in his head.

As far as real advice goes.. I don't know. Does AutumnMist tell every guy he gets near what his MO is? Confront the guy and tell him it's criminal?

There will be no comfortable way out of this and no sure guarantee of getting him to change his behavior.

stay silent: live with the complicity

confront him: hope for having some effect

tell others: risk ruining the friendship, possibly have some effect

I do recall when I was in college in the early 90s there was an HIV support group and some of the members would not tell potential partners they were positive, so others in the group appraoched them to let them know.

[MelissaB]

8. I understand why you are upset.

No, it isn't "right" to have unsafe sex and without telling your partner you are HIV positive, but I think most men who bareback know the risks. Also, if they are honest with themselves, they know people aren't always truthful and upfront about sex and HIV.

I'm so sorry. I hope I don't get flamed, too.

[FreedomAngel82]

46. I saw a documentary about this a while back

It was on the Sundance Channel and it was about gay guys and HIV and how they wanted it. :shrug: It was a great documentary to watch to understand. One person in the doc told how sometimes people lie about it since so many people are HIV-positive and everything. I can't remember the name of the doc though.

[marbuc]

9. Isn't this illegal?

nt

[timber84]

13. i did hear the other day about some guy getting sentenced for something

very similiar

[misternormal]

34. There was a case in a City in the Southern U.S...

Concerning a man who knew he was HIV positive, and knowingly infected five women. He is in jail for his crimes, but the women are just waiting for the symptoms to show up.

This is a crime where even the victims lose.

[FreedomAngel82]

47. I remember reading about that

[Solomon]

48. A guy here in DC was just sentenced to 20 years for doing this.

It is definitely illegal.

You can't care about staying friends with someone who does this. Confront him, please.

[Horse with no Name]

I would be heartbroken as well if I had a friend with that attitude

What he is doing is morally irresponsible. Period.
In fact, in some jurisdictions, a case could be made for attempted murder.
Ask him how we would feel if he knew he infected a man who was out "trying something new" that had a young wife with children at home who had absolutely no knowledge of her husband's activities?
How fair is that to her?
Somehow...I feel if my "friend" couldn't see how horrible this is, I would have to part ways. It's not someone I would want to associate with.
I would also contact the health department and tell them I was doing so.

[CanOfWhoopAss]

10. Simple fact... your friend is guilty of attempted murder and should go to

jail. Possibly even murder as well. You should turn your friend in or you are just as guilty.

[timber84]

17. hey now she is not accessory to anything

[CanOfWhoopAss]

29. if you have information of a crime that has been comitted...

and you fail to report it you are in violaton of one law or another. It's just as if her friend said he killed someone and buried the body in his backyard. If she doesn't report it, I'm no lawyer, but...

[timber84]

31. is there actually legislation covering this?

[CanOfWhoopAss]

37. Yes there is in some states.

Before I left NY there were cases where known HIV positive criminals and inmates were charged with attempted murder just for biting police officers and corrections officers. If I find link to a case I'll reply back with it. If you know you have the disease and you intentionally try to pass it by any means sexual or other you can be charged with attempted murder. You can't be charged with murder unless your "victim" dies of the disease before you do.

[CanOfWhoopAss]

40. class A felony and class A misdemeanor when seeking medical care

http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/resources.html?record=361


http://www.avert.org/criminal-transmission.htm

http://www.hivcriminallaw.org/

[AutumnMist]

41. Thank You

I am saving the links

[AutumnMist]

39. Look

I am not and never have been a part of his decisions. Can I change it? Of course I can. But it was information given to me and I asked for advice on what to do with it. I have spoken to people, and yes I have thought about the legal issues. But I am not responsible for his behavior. I am a third party that is choosing to reach out to find a solution. And I will do the right thing. But no, I am NOT, and never have been, JUST as guilty.

[CanOfWhoopAss]

42. Just stating the facts not flaming. See post 29 and 40. Ask any lawyer..

would it be easy to convict you of a crime? probably not but why subject yourself to the expense. your friend is not passing on a cold. he is ruining others financially and taking their health and lives. not to mention others that are infected by those he infected. others who may have families that love and depend on them. wrecklessness intentional or otherwise compounds exponentially.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. I believe your friend, as dear as he is to you

has a mental problem. He is some level of anger/hate inside there and he is using his illness as a weapon.

Personally, I would report this behavior. You know about it, therefore, you share some level of culpability for it. That might get ME some flames, but I'm not looking at it from a legal, but rather a moral point of view, as in what you will think about this as you are lying on your death bed.

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. It is indeed a heavy issue and a heartbreak for you.

[elehhhhna]

12. Why did he tell you this?

He HAD to know you would be shocked (as you should be) by this behavior. I suspect he wants you to tell him to stop it--to tell him to put the brakes on. Be honest with him.

Being HIV+ is NOT an acceptable excuse for endangering others.

edit to add: major medical crisis' don't always bring out the best in people. Sorry for what must be a horrible disappointment.

[AutumnMist]

24. I Told Him

My God (name inserted) you cant be serious. Don't do this! Its wrong and its illegal. I told him its like asking the victims of a drunk driving accident if they deserved to die because the family wasnt scanning people for beer. He looked at me and told me that I need to just get "right" with the culture. I have told so many people in our circle to not sleep with him. He is mad. But honestly I dont care. This isnt right.

[stray cat]

14. What are you debating doing or not doing?

Are you stuggling whether to break his confidence and tell friends that he is putting at risk?

[AutumnMist]

28. I have broken

the simple confidence. I am thinking about greater measures.

[MichiganVote]

15. Sorry...but you better wake up. Its your friend w/the moral dilemma

Having worked in this area of life on earth, you don't need advice. You need a backbone.

[AutumnMist]

26. True

I have one. But this threw me. You are absolutely right.

[MichiganVote]

32. Well then, turn in your merit badge and join the rest of the human race

Nobody's perfect but some of us are closer to it than others. I for one would be very uncomfortable being 'friends'with someone who intentionally injures others in the fashion and then has the gall to tell me about it.

Some things just aren't meant to be.

[bluestateguy]

16. I think his behavior is despicable

Other people are hurt by such carelessness, so it is their/our business.

[Demaholic]

18. he has an obligation

...to tell everyone of his HIV status.

I have one question, if he doesn't like when others ask him to use protection, what protection do they have? Your post states that he suggests "they" use protection? From him? I am confused...

[timber84]

22. you mean everyone he has sex with right?

[AutumnMist]

30. He

wants them to be the responsible one. They use protection from him. Its stupid I know. Man I cannot believe he would be so stupid!!!!!!

[Caoimhe]

19. In a way this reminds me of a bigot I once knew

who hated gays. He told me that if he ever got HIV/AIDS from a blood transfusion or whatever other means (assuming not gay sex since he was so obviously repulsed by such things) then he would do the following: Buy lots of weapons and become basically like the DC Sniper only just killing gays. As some sick form of retribution.

What your friend is doing is the same thing without the homophobia.

[Jacobin]

21. So, getting his rocks off is more important than killing people?

What's the 'dilemma?'

What he is doing is immoral, despicable and probably criminal.

[JuniperLea]

23. I've had my heart broken so many times

by finding out friends were HIV positive. Two of my dearest friends died of AIDS related/opportunistic diseases. They were the most honest, loving, kind and caring men I've ever known. They had been partners for over 20 years and when they were diagnosed, they kept to themselves. Many other friends, even though they knew these two were HIV positive and were part of "their crowd", refused to be tested and never went to a doctor when they started getting ill. They died early deaths because of their stubbornness. My two good friends didn't have access to the drugs available now. It was in the 80's and early 90's; they were luck to have AZT and good friends to get pot for them to ward of the side effects. Still others knew, but never protected others... never told them, just had sex with them. I think that is so selfish! And beyond selfish, it is manslaughter if not murder. I've watched more than a dozen men die of AIDS in the past 20 years. (I live in Long Beach, CA, and the gay population is enormous. I'm a very maternal person and I think that's why gay men like having me as a friend.)

I don't know what to tell you AutumnMist, I've been there and walked your walk and in looking back, I still don't see how I could have done more. Your friend needs professional help. Find yourself a support group and find your friend a group too. All you can do is lead the horse to water, you can't make him drink.

[saracat]

25. He needs counseling. He is justifying murder.

If he doesn't get help, I would , sadly, dump him. He is a sick person and not just physically.If he remains that way by choice, it isn't mentally healthy for you to be around him. Even the fact that he shares this with you without offering to stop his practices or feel apologetic for this criminal behaviour is abuse and you don't need it.

[MuseRider]

27. Wow

Having watched my brother die of AIDS I can't even begin to tell you how I would have responded but to tell you that I am glad I am not there with you. It would not be pretty.

I understand the love for him but he should have known how you would feel given you worked at a clinic, hell he should have known anyway.

Is this some odd way of trying your friendship?

I wish I could help you. I would have been glad to explain what dying of AIDS looks like but since he is HIV positive it is probably not a good idea.

I could not remain his friend but if you do you probably should say something to him. This is not right.

[Catherine Vincent]

33. Your friend has a problem (besides having aids).

Make him see a counselor and attend with him. Tell him if he doesn't, you will turn him in. You wouldn't be able to live with yourself knowing that your friend is doing this. You can save lives by doing something about it. He may be trying to reach out or something or else he wouldn't have told you. Do it now please. Thanks.

[AutumnMist]

35. Not An Issue

I can do that. Thank you.

[jbnow]

52. He'll only go

to a counselor if he wants to be stopped and perhaps he does. A counselor would be required by law to report this.

This must be so hard. He is right that people should not take risks but that is not the same as it being OK for him to intentionally put people at risk. We know there are people who will take pleasure in endangering people, we just never think one will be someone we know and love.

Why did he even tell you if he plans to continue the behavior?

I have many thought and wonders of the psychology of all this, but that's beside the point.

I wish sex and death were not linked, that itself is a sad reality. But how heartbreaking to have someone having sex knowing they may well be offering death.

[cosmicone]

36. This person is engaged in tortious acts

You should quietly advise the second friend who contracted HIV from this guy to sue him.

That will stop the self-righteous insanity.

This is a public-health issue and not a gay rights or touchy-feely issue. Being gay doesn't absolve him of acting responsibly.

If you had a friend with a flu, not washing his hands and touching finger-food at a party, what would you do?

There is a scientific approach and a humanitarian approach to this. When the two conflict, you should always choose the scientific approach. A lawsuit will open his eyes and you'll save lives.

[Devlzown]

38. Any person who joins a bareback club

is taking a huge risk. If people use condoms, then they aren't barebacking. Although I think what your friend is doing is wrong, let's not absolve his partners of their responsibility to protect their own health. They are just as responsible as he is for putting themselves at risk at the word of a stranger.

[Zhade]

43. He must be stopped.

If he is willfully having sex without telling his partners the danger, he is committing a serious criminal offense.

[justiceischeap]

44. Maybe he's a bug chaser/gift giver...

http://gaylife.about.com/cs/gay101/a/bugparties.htm

What is a "bug chaser?"

A bug chaser is a gay man who deliberately attempts to contract HIV by having unprotected sex with a man or group of men who are known to have the virus.

What is a "gift giver?"

A gift giver is an HIV positive gay man who deliberately transmits the virus, often times to bug chasers, or those willing to contract it.

Doesn't make it right but could be an explanation.

[FreedomAngel82]

45. What I would do

is just tell him your honest opinion. Just because it's apart of their culture doesn't mean someone else wants to get it. He should still practice safe sex unless he knows for sure the other person doesn't care either way.

[hyphenate]

49. Please tell him that he is committing

the equivalent of murder by not telling his partners of his HIV status.

And there have been people convicted for far less.

This is not a judgement: this is the law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. He needs counseling and intervention needs to be done

I am 100 % safe sex advocate as well, and have seen people like this... partly he is in denial of his situation, it has not sunk in... partly he is angry with the world

What you need to do, is intervention for his sake (he will get sick as time goes on) and the xake of others.

And I must add, many AIDS\ HIV patients go through a period of denial \ self destructive behavior... (Oh and I was just a medic)

[dsc]

51. Your friend needs an intervention

You can't control what he does and even if your state has laws against this conduct it is unlikely that you have enough evidence, assuming no victim has come forward, to use the law to stop him. What you can control is being his friend. He needs to be given a choice, you or barebacking. I wish you luck.

[Bluerthanblue]

53. AutumnMist-

what your friend is doing is like someone who has been abused, justifing abusing others because of their 'history/experience'.
I know it may not seem the same, since we're talking about what should be 'consenting' adults- but when one of those adults knows he is doing harm to another, and continues to do what he is doing, it IS abuse- in the worst sense.
As a survivor of childhood and domestic abuse, i couldn't understand the compulsion some people have to inflict the kind of harm done done to themselves onto others. Through years of counselling, and alot of introspection, i've come to understand that it gives some 'victims' the sense of power and control they never felt they had before.- Sadly, had your friend been able to trust those he knew to care for him, as they should have, he would not harbor the desire to be 'in control' of others lives and destinies- especially when it means being in control of doing terrible harm to others- the notion of 'they get what they deserve' is him speaking to himself, i believe.

I wish you wisdom, comfort, and peace-
blu

[donco6]

54. He's screwed up.

I know about barebacking, and I just don't get it. There's the perception from some gay men that using a condom lessens the intensity of the experience. But they just aren't thinking clearly. Intentionally barebacking when you're HIV+ is just the same as murder in my book.

And I proudly wave the flag.