MSNBC said the Israeli tourists were warned by Jordan

[lovuian]

got them all on the buses and so Jordan government knew!!!

No Americans killed either so far!!!

[stray cat]

1. I'm going to have to see some real proof before I believe that.

[FlavaKreemSnak]

2. Here is the link from an Israel paper about it

A number of Israelis staying on Wednesday at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces, apparently due to a specific security alert. They were escorted back to Israel by security personnel.
The Foreign Ministry stated Wednesday that no Israeli tourists are known to have been injured in the blasts. Representatives of Israel's embassy in Amman were in contact with local authorities to examine any report of injured Israelis, but none were received.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643661.html

[lovuian]

3. Thanks FlavaKreemSnak isn't it amazing they had warning

kinda like the call Franken got before 9/11 ...

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lovuian]

5. now thats the 4 million dollar question!!!

:crazy:

[newyorican]

6. It's probably better...

to stick to the topic in the OP. Going off on a tangent will only allow the thread to get hijacked, moved to the I/P dungeon and locked.

[smirkymonkey]

7. Franken got a call before 9/11? From who?

I've heard rumours, but nobody specific.

[lovuian]

8. its in his book Koch called him and told him not to go to work

on 9/11 and he didn't ...he was scheduled already for a charity function but his office was in the WTC...

[smirkymonkey]

9. Wow - Did Franken ever follow up? Obviously if Koch knew,

others knew. How much more obvious can it get?

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

10. I think that was a joke

inspired by the anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

[lovuian]

12. It didn't look like a joke its in his book

when you think about it if he would have gone to work that day he would have been killed...

I'm glad he didn't!!!

It could be why he is going for Wellstones seat against Coleman!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. It was a joke and he has even mentiioned it in the show

he (and I) are tired of this crap... and by the by, Israelis died that day... Jews died that day

Now what is part of the record, is that the French warned us, the Germans warned us, the Israelis warned us, the Jordanians warned us, and the Egyptians warned us, oh the Candiands did as well. I am sure I am forgetting an intelligence agency that warned us...

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

16. you forgot the Russians :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. See I know I forgot somebody

;-)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. That's not what the story says.

I assume they've changed it. This is the first graf:


There is no truth to reports that Israelis staying at the Radisson SAS hotel in Amman on Wednesday were evacuated by Jordanian security forces before the bombing that took place there.

[katinmn]

34. The Haaretz paper changed its story! The original story

that was posted online (below) said the Israelis were evacuated BEFORE the bombings. chlamor, a poster on PI, posted the original article last evening around 10 p.m. http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=4301&mesg_id=4301

This morning the same Haaretz reporter has this story de-bunking his own report! The old link isn't there of course. Is there a way to retrieve the original version?


Israelis evacuated from Amman hotel hours before bombings

By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent

A number of Israelis staying on Wednesday at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces, apparently due to a specific security alert. They were escorted back to Israel by security personnel.

The Foreign Ministry stated Wednesday that no Israeli tourists are known to have been injured in the blasts. Representatives of Israel's embassy in Amman were in contact with local authorities to examine any report of injured Israelis, but none were received. There are often a number of Israeli businessman and tourists in Amman, including in the hotels hit Wednesday.

Israel's counter-terror headquarters on Wednesday recommended Israeli citizens not travel in Jordan. Travel warnings regarding Jordan were tightened a few months ago, but many Israelis still visit the country. Many also visit other regions such as the Jordanian Arava and the ancient city of Petra.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643661.ht...

[tx_dem41]

56. Your link now says the EXACT OPPOSITE. n/t

[EuroObserver]

65. Yeah. The story was changed: at the same link:

...which is not what more professional, independent media do.

cf. again, here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1915616

ed: the evolving series of Reuters reports are still present at the original links (last I saw); (although no longer referenced from their front page). Each later, more informed, redacted, version appearently gets published at its own new link, without removing earlier versions from the historical record... (The Guardian, it seems, does the same. The BBC, uh, apparently not always so).

[davidinalameda]

88. this is the headline to the article link

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643661.html

No truth to report of Israeli evacuations before Amman bombs

There is no truth to reports that Israelis staying at the Radisson SAS hotel in Amman on Wednesday were evacuated by Jordanian security forces before the bombing that took place there.

The Israelis were escorted back to Israel by Jordanian security personnel only after the attacks had taken place, contrary to earlier reports.

Al Qaida said Thursday that it had carried out the triple suicide bombings at the Radisson, Grand Hyatt and Days Inn hotels in downtown Amman, in which at least 57 people, including an Israeli, were killed.

[meganmonkey]

11. Well, isn't that interesting

really, really interesting.

Sheeeee-it.

:o

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Guess they got one Israeli...

09:45 Israeli victim of Amman attack is Husam Fathi Mahajana of Umm al-Fahm (Haaretz) (Haaretz breaking news flash)

Ever think it possible that Israelis take threats to heart and don't always see it as a ploy by the government to "boost ratings?"

[Coastie for Truth]

17. The Israelis - and a lot of US multinationals

(especially in the financial services, telecommunications, and information technology area) "subscribe" to scores of "security consultant" services, each with their own "retired intelligence specialists" and their own versions of "Alert Levels" similar to Tom Ridge's "Low-Guarded-Elevated-High-Severe" color codes.

And if any of their "security consultants" issue an "alert" they minimize travel, pull people out of hot spots, etc.

Example, 9/11 was on a Tuesday. My son flew from San Francisco to the east coast on Sunday 9/9 on a flight that is usually crowded - and he said that there were a lot of empty seats. The JPMorgan-Chase, Citi, Oracle, IBM, Cisco, MS etc. security folks must have issued "travel minimize advisories."

Example, I flew east to visit my parents on Friday 9/7 -- and the flight was its usual oversold self. Flew back out west on 9/9, also usually oversold. There were about 10% empty seats (in the years I have been doing the "weekend to see the parents" thing - returning on the same 8:50PM flight -- 9/9/01 was only time it wasn't oversold).

And these "security consultants" are really agoraphobic jumpy in the post-9/11 world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Ha Aretz is reporting the same

and I AM AMASED this made it to the MSM

My theory, the jordanian service either found out, they are that good, or received a warning and moved... not enough time to evac all

[bloom]

19. Any way you slice it

the concept where some are warned and others are not - > stinks.

[Coastie for Truth]

20. Maybe

if they worked for CitiGroup or JPMorganChase, or Microsoft, or Intel, or IBM, or Hewlett-Packard or Cisco -- and carried a BLACKBERRY - they would have been warned

from the corner of Page Mill and El Camino Real in Silly Valley

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

24. Article has been updated.

Now saying that this is not the case.

[bloom]

28. Seems like that has happened before

a story like that comes out - even in the Mainstream (acceptable) Israeli press and then it's retracted. I think that's fishy. I've seen it happen with our news as well - with stories unfavorable to our government.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. Hard to say...

Given the confusion that surrounds any event like this, a lot of incorrect stuff gets reported. I also don't see an attribution for this information in the snippets of the original story that are still posted here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Yes... it does, and I put this in the area of rumors

you know the middle east? This is how urban legends start.

And now that I think about it, if they knew, they should have evacuated the whole hotel, alas this is NOT a democracy so don't expect an eqnuiry either.

[Coastie for Truth]

71. You want to work someplace where they have their own intelligence

and warn their employees of potential dangers - before DHS or NYPD does?

[No Exit]

18. I saw that article from Haaretz, also, about Israelis warned in advance.

Some people think the Israelis have agents provocateur among "al quaeda". But if I linked to the articles wherein this theory is (pretty convincingly) aired, I'd just get people squawking at me like parrots repeating that tired old canard, "Anti-semitism! Anti-semitism! Braaaawk!"

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. Haaretz article (link as in post #2) now sys "no truth to rumour"

No truth to report of Israeli evacuations before Amman bombs

There is no truth to reports that Israelis staying at the Radisson SAS hotel in Amman on Wednesday were evacuated by Jordanian security forces before the bombing that took place there.

The Israelis were escorted back to Israel by Jordanian security personnel only after the attacks had taken place, contrary to earlier reports.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643661.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. What do you know about AQ, and do you realize that

destablizing Jordan is one of their goals? After you realize that tell me why.

No will not raise the cannard, will raise another one... most people know precoous little about AQ... I have read some books over the last few years, and I am willing to recomend you one: The Age of Sacred Terror... it is a good one... will explain why the Israelis don't have anybody as a provocateour, I doubt even as HUMINT, but why AQ really does not like the Kingdon either. Free clue, the reasons are very similar as to why Osama declared a fatwah against the Kingdom of SA.

[No Exit]

35. Here's what I believe.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:Y8x8e3MdaTcJ:marc.perkel.com/archives/000753.html+Al+quaeda+concept+organization&hl=en

The Israelis are only one part of this mess. You are saying that "the Israelis don't have anybody as a provocateur". Really? Their spy agency has never made use of agents provocateur? Are you sure?

And what if there were other, non-Israeli, agents provocateur in there, whipping up disorganized Arab frustration into something that is more organized, more visible... something that rolls trippingly off the English-speaking tongue, such as "al qaeda"?

Can we at least agree that Arabs and Israelis are fighting for control of the Middle East? And that we, the stupid Americans, have been led into the middle of it on the Israeli side?

I know you are well-informed on many of these issues. I don't think you would disagree with the majority of ideas I hold on these issues. I do wonder if there really was a warning. I also wonder about all the reports, directly after 9/11, that some people claimed to know in advance that the WTC was going to fall. I am not claiming to have all the answers. But I insist on remaining skeptical about everything I hear about "terror". We are being fed huge amounts of misinformation, and we only make fools of ourselves by claiming we can always tell who the "evildoers" really are.

[Coastie for Truth]

36. Actually it's Lerry Ellison of Oracle and John Chambers of Cisco

:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:

Oracle pulled all of their technoids out of the ME this week end. Cisco pulled theirs out the week before.

Oracle and Cisco have both put a freeze on all employee flights since 11/4.

Oracle and Cisco control the backbone of the internet.

Watch out - there's going to a super virus to pull down the Internet -- and when it comes back Larry Ellison and John Chambers will own the world.


:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:

[No Exit]

38. Are... are you saying that "terror" attacks sometimes play

into big financial coups???

Say it ain't so!

[No Exit]

39. Are... are you saying that "terror" attacks sometimes play

into big financial coups????

Say it ain't so!!

[Coastie for Truth]

42. 9/11 was used by the Texas Mafia as the reason

for the biggest financial coup of all time.

[AntiCoup2K4]

48. Larry Ellison wanted to implement the "Mark of the Beast" ......

....immediately following 9-11-01 with mandatory digital microchips in everybody. I trust Bill Gates far more than I trust that son of a bitch.

[EuroObserver]

50. Yes, Hi again Coastie. I do predict the Internet,

according to the far-from perfect 'plan' as we perceive it, as we know it, will eventually have to be pulled.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. It is not what you believe

it is what you should know... that is why I highly recommend you read The Age of Sacred Terror... it is an amazingly good and concise intro to the issues... in the modern days, and takes no prisoners

It was written by two former NSA staffers (clinton) and are even surprisingly critical of our role in the ME.

That said we were not pulled in there by the crafty Israelis... we are (or were) an Empire, control of that land is critical for (insert Empire here) whether you are talking about ancient Egypt in its wars with the Assyrians, or the modern day... so we went there willingly, nobody pulled us in.

As to AQ, as I said I will be surprised if the Israelis have managed to get HUMINT in there, and they would not risk it, if they managed that trick, for this... not good enough. Proof of how insular AQ is and how hard to penetrate... organizations of this type usually fall when one betrays the next. We have offers now in the millions of dollars for the top leadership and in the hundreds of thousands for mid tier. We have yet to have anybody turn anybody in.

[Colorado Blue]

43. No - you're wrong - Arabs and Israelis are NOT fighting for

control of the Middle East. Israelis are fighting for control of Israel, whose borders have yet to be established, which isn't recognized by 20 of the 22 Arab states, and whose destruction has been threatened - and promised - again and again since 1948.

Jeez I hate these goofy threads.

[itzamirakul]

73. Great link, No Exit..

Thanks for sharing. I had been looking for something like this.

[Coastie for Truth]

30. By the same argument - since their executives were warned

would you argue that Oracle CEO Larry Ellison or Cisco CEO John Chambers or IBM CEO Sam Palmisano or Hewlett Packard Bob Wayman or Citigroup CEO Charles Prince or JP Morgan-Chase CEO Jim Dimon are al qaida? or have agents provocateur among al qaida?

Sometimes, mysteriously, the United/Skywest flights between Hewlett Packard's home in Palo Alto and their laser jet plant in Boise are pretty empty -- and sometimes later that week there's a terrorsit attack in Manila??

I'm giving you this from corner of Page Mill Rd and El Camino Real in Silly Valley CA

[Coastie for Truth]

32. Dupe - server burped

[lovuian]

92. kick

:kick:

[babylonsister]

27. From LBN: One American killed:

At Least One American Among Dead in Jordan


At least one American was among the 56 people killed in the Amman hotel bombings, a U.S. Embassy official said Thursday. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity in accordance with embassy rules, said Wednesday's triple bombings also wounded at least two Americans.

Hundreds of angry Jordanians rallied outside one of the three U.S.-based hotels that were attacked in succession by suicide bombers Wednesday night. The group al-Qaida in Iraq, led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, claimed responsibility for the bombings.

In an Internet statement, al-Qaida in Iraq linked the blasts at the Grand Hyatt, the Radisson SAS and the Days Inn hotels to the war in Iraq and called Amman the "backyard garden" for U.S. operations.

Protesters including women and children gathered outside a bombed hotels, shouting, "Death to al-Zarqawi, the villain and the traitor!" Drivers honked the horns of vehicles decorated with Jordanian flags and posters of the king. A helicopter hovered overhead. "We sacrifice our lives for you, Amman!" the protesters chanted.

http://www.bdtonline.com/articles/2005/11/10/ap/headlin...

[Junkdrawer]

29. The head of the Palestinian intelligence services was also killed...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1915055&mesg_id=1915055

:tinfoilhat:

[EuroObserver]

31. Hmmm. Tricky, difficult subject/potential minefield...

But I refer you to this material from this other DU thread started a short while ago: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1915616#1915675

...Also, I, EuroObserver, observed (I have several evolving Reuters and some BBC reports archived in semi-realtime), first Reuters reports from the Radisson SAS hotel quoted first-on-scene police sources as describing a "bomb placed in a false ceiling": (saved own archives and: http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-11-09T195455Z_01_WRI970423_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SECURITY-JORDAN.xml )

<snip>

Deadly blasts rock Jordanian hotels
Wed Nov 9, 2005 7:55 PM GMT9
Printer Friendly | Email Article | RSS

Related Articles
Bomb in ceiling caused Jordan hotel blast - source

AMMAN (Reuters) - At least five people were killed and more than 52 others wounded on Wednesday in blasts at two international hotels in the Jordanian capital, Amman, witnesses said.

A blast at the Radisson hotel killed at least five and wounded more than 12, Reuters witnesses said. The blast was caused by a bomb placed in a false ceiling, police sources at the scene told Reuters.

A separate blast shook the Hyatt Hotel in the capital, wounding at least 40, some seriously, a Reuters witness said.

The explosion at the Radisson ripped through a banqueting room where about 250 people were attending a wedding reception. The hotel is known to be popular with Israeli tourists.

© Reuters 2005. All Rights Reserved.

</snip>

This reference to a ceiling bomb was still present in later Reuters reports as the 'suicide bombers' story began to be reported (sourced to Jordanian Ministry of Interior). Today (Thursday's) Spanish and Catalan press (El País, La Vanguardia) also retain references to this little inconsistency...

The linked Reuters piece referred to above: http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-11-09T194152Z_01_WRI970883_RTRUKOT_0_TEXT0.xml&related=true

<snip>

Bomb in ceiling caused Jordan hotel blast - source
Wed Nov 9, 2005 7:42 PM GMT173
Printer Friendly | Email Article | RSS


AMMAN (Reuters) - A blast at the Radisson hotel in the Jordanian capital Amman on Wednesday was caused by a bomb placed in a false ceiling, police sources at the scene told Reuters.


© Reuters 2005. All Rights Reserved.


</snip>

[lovuian]

40. This was put on MSNBC yesterday and I have heard no

retraction and I think people are warned way ahead of these things and others are not...

Thats the sinister part of this whole thing...

It looks to me that this attack was aimed at Jordanians giving them reason to be angry at AlZarwi...

that the Haaretz retracted their story quickly does not surprise me one iota or that Franken said it was a joke in his book... the way I read it didn't seem like a joke ...

Maybe what this is saying is Israeli Intelligience is really good and they protected their citizens!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Yes Israeli INtel is good

and they take it as their principal duty to protect their citizens, that is from foundation day... but you are readyng what you want into this, serious.

You should also know taht there are many governmental and non governmental intel agencies working in the world right now... some of them even are contracted by industries and only warn those within the contract. If you have enough money you can buy world class intel and protection services.

[Colorado Blue]

45. Thank you for pointing out this RATIONAL explanation. I

can't help but think of the DU hysteria, blaming Mossad, after the London bombings. In fact, it occurs every time there is a terror attack. It happened after Hariri, it happens when Israelis are blown up in Israel and we have a whole 9/11 forum full of bigoted scenarios.

AND I AM SICK OF IT.

[Wordie]

91. Do not Israelis pursue a VERY agressive policy against those whom

Israel percieves to be a threat? Knowing this, it does not appear to be unreasonable that some would speculate that Mossad might be involved. Yet you call this bigoted. I don't understand.

This from a news article entitled, "Israel to kill in U.S., allied nations"
<snip>
Israel is embarking upon a more aggressive approach to the war on terror that will include staging targeted killings in the United States and other friendly countries, former Israeli intelligence officials told United Press International.

...Since Sharon became Israeli prime minister, Tel Aviv has mainly limited its practice of targeted killings to the West Bank and Gaza because "no one wanted such operations on their territory," a former Israeli intelligence official said.

Another former Israeli government official said that under Sharon, "diplomatic constraints have prevented the Mossad from carrying out 'preventive operations' (targeted killings) on the soil of friendly countries until now."

He said Sharon is "reversing that policy, even if it risks complications to Israel's bilateral relations."

Edited to add the link and additional paragraphs:
http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=20030115-035849-6156r

[Coastie for Truth]

46. This is eactly what the Big Boys do

CitiGroup
BankofAmerica-Wachovia
JPMorgan-Chase
IBM
Oracle
Hewlett-Packard
Cisco
AOL
SBC
ExxonMobil
TexacoChevron
General Motors

Query - my observation, my son's observation --- there much less "business travel" - far fewer "suits" on the planes on 9/9 then normal? Citi, Chase, IBM, Cisco, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, etc. etc. etc. WHY?

NO SECRET - Private intelligence from private security analysts

They buy better intelligence then our DHS provides us.

[lovuian]

47. I totally agree with you guys there and its getting to be the

have money get protection and the have nots the victims!!!

This does not surprise me at all...

[Colorado Blue]

44. They were removed AFTER the attacks. The Jordanian

government apparently WARNED people before the attacks, that something might be up. An Israeli was killed.

[lovuian]

49. well when reporting this yesterday that is not what the news

reported they said BEFORE ...the Jordanina government WARNED people before the attacks then WHY were people killed???

where is your source the retracted piece by Haaretz??? Its interesting and a fact that Haaretz changed its story... and you could see why it would change it story... It exposed that Israelis had intel that the hotel was going to be bombed... but when it occurred it was reported the Israelis were evacuated BEFORE the attack!!!

[katinmn]

51. Story that was widely circulated last night

I saw this posted on another forum and also received it in an email.

Israelis evacuated from Amman hotel hours before bombings

By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent

A number of Israelis staying on Wednesday at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces, apparently due to a specific security alert. They were escorted back to Israel by security personnel.

The Foreign Ministry stated Wednesday that no Israeli tourists are known to have been injured in the blasts. Representatives of Israel's embassy in Amman were in contact with local authorities to examine any report of injured Israelis, but none were received. There are often a number of Israeli businessman and tourists in Amman, including in the hotels hit Wednesday.

Israel's counter-terror headquarters on Wednesday recommended Israeli citizens not travel in Jordan. Travel warnings regarding Jordan were tightened a few months ago, but many Israelis still visit the country. Many also visit other regions such as the Jordanian Arava and the ancient city of Petra.

the lonk takes you to the revised story.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643661.html

[Colorado Blue]

52. People were warned of a specific threat. This is not unusual.

Threats against Jews and Israelis are common. Read about the security precautions at European airports for example.

And it is ALSO not uncommon for "facts" to be misreported. Remember all the b.s. that followed the London bombings, or the Hariri assassination? It is, alas, distressingly common for people to blame the Israelis for terror bombings. I find this both alarming and sad. It's also a form of blood libel.

If you don't know what that is, look it up.

[lovuian]

57. I hate bombing and killing of innocent people... Its a horrible

crime and does nothing but bring anger and terror... similiar to 9/11 and the madrid bombings ... its to make a population of people react emotionally...

we need to take emotion out of this and look unbiasedly to the facts!!!

My feeling is this it to make the Jordanians react in anger to AlQuida and be in terror of them...

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Yuo do know thogh that OBL issued a Fatwah

against all MODERATE arab governments, don't you? Yes Jordan is in the list

[Colorado Blue]

70. I think that's correct, and also to try and get the Jordanian

people to turn on the US and of course, Israel. Jordan and Egypt are the only two Arab states who have peace treaties with Israel, they have a lot of commerce with the US, and they and the PA are working on projects together - water, power, bird flu problems, industrial/enterprise zones, etc.

[Behind the Aegis]

60. First reports

Ask any journalist, they will tell you often first reports are wrong. They will report what they think they know, speculation, rumor, and innuendo. Why? To be the first to get the story out! Usually, the bare core has some truth to it.

You asked: "the Jordanina (sic) government WARNED people before the attacks then WHY were people killed???" Think about it. If a warning was issued here, most people (including many on this very board) would pass it off as a fake report. People would die, but would have been warned.

I find it 'amusing' that Ha'aretz was good enough to say that Israelis got out BEFORE the bombing, but when more information becomes available (including that an Israeli was killed), it suddenly is not a good enough source. So they updated a story. It happens. Read AP or Reuters early reports, then compare them to later reports. Are they liars too? And not just about this story, they do it ALL the time. The job...get the story out FIRST!

[EuroObserver]

66. Your point understood, taken into account, Aegis n/t

[Colorado Blue]

53. Al Qaeda has claimed responsibility, OKAY?

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/jordan

[lovuian]

54. Yes we knew that were just saying the the Israeli's knew ahead

of time to pull out their people... that only one Israeli was killed says alot for Israeli Intel...

It definitely has the AlQuida stamp on it

and I guess we have the big question who is Al Quida??? and do we really know??? or do we really want to know when you look at Code Able Danger... on the suppression of intel... WHY???

[Colorado Blue]

58. They didn't necessarily "know" anything. But they do have

terrific intel and will act on credible threats.

However, the implication from many posters, on this and other terror bombing threads, has been that because the Israelis have good intel, they were involved in the bombings - and I find that reprehensible as well as bigoted, not to mention utterly missing the point of what is actually going on out there. Seeking sinister angles - whew.

As for who is al Qaeda? I think that's probably become an umbrella term, maybe including various groups. I would bet most are Islamist rather than purely political. But I don't know, not being a member. I do know that Bin Ladin attracted fighters from all over, to the training camps in Afghanistan, that they were heavily funded and given so many arms they went into the arms business themselves. Craig Unger writes about this in House of Bush, House of Saud. I think the core group has probably attracted adherents, how tightly organized they are yours truly has NO idea.

[itzamirakul]

74. I am just wondering....how do you KNOW so much about Bin Laden and

his alleged training camps and their funding, etc? Someone had to have TOLD you all of this. Oh, it is something that you got out of a book....?

I think there is just as much reason to suspect Mossad complicity as there is to suspect Arab complicity. Both are seeking land ownership for control of oil and power. The difference is that Israel has the American government on its side and that weights the argument heavily. I resent taking sides, PERIOD! Israel doesn't do anything for me personally any more than Iraqis, or Afghanis or the Palestinians, do. Why should my tax dollars be spent to defend their dreams of empire? Why are we defending one against the others? That is my question.

[EnfantTerrible]

83. *chirp* *chirp*

and the silence is deafening.


Great questions.

[tx_dem41]

61. Can you point to a credible source that says..

that Israelis knew beforehand?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

55. Yeah, on a website. Anyone could have claimed responsibility and

say they were al qaeda, just like anyone can pose on the Internet as anyone they want to be. Claiming and finding PROOF, EVIDENCE are different things.

[Colorado Blue]

59. The BBC says this website is used for such things. It bears

their style, their imprint.

By the way are you DEFENDING these guys? Look at the death toll in Iraq alone. These are innocent people who are being blown to smithereens.

[katinmn]

63. No one here is defending them.

Just exploring the odd facts that are coming out.

After all the lies and leaks of the past five years, people have a right, no, a DUTY, to question and try to get at the truth.

Using terms like "blood libel" and accusing people of defending the bombers is meant to shut people up.

[tx_dem41]

64. What odd facts? n/t

[Colorado Blue]

69. No, it isn't. It is meant to give some historical perspective

to this sort of conspiracy theorizing and it is ALSO meant to get people to look at what is happening, really HAPPENING, and not at the inside of your mind.

The same kind of blather went on just after the London bombings, remember? Hello? Those were very clearly committed by British born Pakistanis but that didn't stop people from pointing the finger at Jews. Similarly when Hariri was blown up - same ol' same ol'. Now the UN and even the Syrians are investigating - SYRIA. Who was ALWAYS the culprit, according to the Lebanese. But not according to DU! No. DU was all over - the MOSSAD. Of course.

Meanwhile the Jordanians aren't fooled. They are marching in protest of Zarqawi's bloody deeds. More than 40 people were just blown up in Iraq. It's all of a piece - this, the bombings in Bali, the threats against Australia. Whether you think Bush is a schmuck or not - and I am not a fan of his AT ALL - this is really happening and it really is out of our control.

Maybe that's the scary thing. Pointing the finger at the Mossad or whatever gives the ILLUSION that we can somehow control it. We can't. But we must try and find a way to communicate. Somehow.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

72. And I am defending them, where? You have your nerve! I am

questioning if this was acutually Al Qaeda. I am one of a few people who post on this board that believe that Al Qaeda might be a tool for those who want to continue the fear on this planet, and especially in this country, in order to keep their control through that fear.

On Edit. And you also mentioned the Brits. Don't you remember this little thing?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1791641

[callady]

78. This from the LA Times

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Israelis staying at the Radisson on Wednesday had been evacuated before the attacks and escorted back home "apparently due to a specific security threat."

Amos N. Guiora, a former senior Israeli counter-terrorism official, said in a phone interview with The Times that sources in Israel had also told him about the pre-attack evacuations.

"It means there was excellent intelligence that this thing was going to happen," said Guiora, a former leader of the Israel Defense Forces who now heads the Institute for Global Security Law and Policy at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland. "The question that needs to be answered is why weren't the Jordanians working at the hotel similarly removed?"

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-f...

Al-Qaida serves its purpose. The war on terror is not only a hoax but a semantical impossibility.

[lovuian]

80. Thanks LA Times for asking the same question we are asking

Why weren't the Jordanians at the hotel removed???

and why did Haaretz change its report!!!

Its too bad we don't have any eye witnesses here...

Notice the date too 11/9

Its quite the mystery and why was the FBI denied access to the site just like they were denied acess to the site in Madrid!!!

[callady]

87. Amazing constellation of coincidences

Just odd. What is up with recurring coincidences?

[Catrina]

90. I doubt any decent person would

defend the blowing up of innocent people. The problem I have is that I no longer believe anything I am told by the 'authorities'. Or by our media, who have disgraced themselves when it comes to reporting the truth.

Who did this? I have no idea. Who is responsible for 9/11? I accepted the official story at first, but not any longer. We were simply TOLD a story and all efforts to conduct an investigation to find out the truth were vehemently resisted by this administration. That's when I became suspicious.

If I were president and my country was attacked as it was on 9/11 I would immediately order a thorough investigation. I would be outraged, furious and determined to get answers. I would also fire anyone who was found to have been negligent in their duty to protect this country. I would WANT TO KNOW who was responsible!! This president did the exact opposite. How?? He did not want an investigation. And when it was forced on him, he refused to testify under oath. Why?? What did he have to hide?

I am sick and tired of hearing this president, after every disaster, say 'we won't rest until we find the perpetrators'. Five years later, and all he has to say is that there's a NEW villain, a mythical character who has had one leg, two legs, has died, been wounded, is resurrected, is everywhere, yet has never been seen. Nor has anything that has been claimed about him, been proven. The Iraqis say Zarqawi is joke, a fairy tale. He wouldn't survive in Iraq ~ the Iraqi resistance would kill him.

What do we know? Why is Bush deliberately ingoring Osama? What I heard today was pure BS, another federal fairy tale. Zarqawi did the bombings in Jordan. Oops, but then he did the ones in Iraq!! This is one hell of guy. And none of this fits with the insignificant individual who lived in a village in Jordan and who was a petty criminal and a drunk, according to his neighbors and friends.

I am sick and tired, and so are most people I know, of the deliberate lies we are told on a daily basis. Until I see PROOF, everything they TELL us, is a lie, imo. Lie to me about a war, about Jessica Lynch, about 'Mission Accomplished' about how much the war will cost, how long it will take etc. etc. etc., and expect me to believe anything you say again? No way!!

So, all I know is there are real attacks going on, and they are increasing. They often seem to benefit this cabal. Who is doing it, I have no idea, but they must hate their own people if they're Muslims, and they must want to keep George Bush in the WH. And maybe they're just dumb fundamentalist idiotic murderers, or maybe not. The thing is, we know NOTHING!!

[itzamirakul]

75. Exactly! OmmmSweetOmmmm....a lot of this info supposedly coming from

al quaida and groups like that could really just be posted by anyone...even a teenager interested in creating some problems. I mean if some of these brilliant teens can come up with ways to hack into major computer systems, what is to stop them from "claiming" to be who they are not?

I just read an interesting article I foundon a link upthread here which goes on to show that al quaida is a Phantom Enemy...a mythical group made up by the neocons and a handful of Arabs and utilized by our government to keep us in a state of perpetual panic. Makes sense to me. In fact..that scenario makes more sense than running from bird flu or dirty bombs, etc......

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

76. I honestly believe that's the case itzamirakul. Bin Laden was a CIA

operative and I believe he never stopped being one. As to the myth of Zarqawi (Emmanuel Goldstein from 1984),I believe he was killed at the beginning of the war. A group of tribal leaders signed a statement to that effect.

Whenever we have to be kept in check (ie Bush's plunging polls) a threat or an actual attack takes place. We are not ever expected to leave Iraq. We are building permanent military bases there as I type. The longer the insurrection the more money Halliburton and contractors make, hand over fist.

BTW... check out my following post about the Brits doing the same exact thing. There is a link there.

[callady]

77. External enemy

as a means of social control?

Very interesting thread.

These guys know a little about how the world works.





Bush and Blair: Just Two Wild Fascists Out On The Town in 2003!

[leesa]

67. Funny how that always seems to keep happening...WTC on 9-11

London bombings, now this...

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Red the following book

The Age of Sacred Terror,

AQ is very much into symbols

[Coastie for Truth]

79. Advance warning?

<>

I live at the very foot of San Francisco Bay, approximately 40 miles plus/minus from Embarcadero Center in San Francisco.

I have two ways to get to The City

1. I can drive up I-880 to Fremont CA and take BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) to San Francisco - my kitchen to Embarcadero Center - 1 hour 15 minutes -- going under San Francisco Bay in the "Trans Bay Tunnel"

2. I can drive down to the Santa Clara University station of "CALTRAIN" - a Union Pacific commuter train - take the CALTRAIN to the Union Pacific/CALTRAIN Station at 4th and King Street - and take a bus, or a light rail, or walk to Embarcadero Center - 1 hour 20 minutes.

Essentially no difference in total fare.

Pre-9/11 I preferred BART - and even in our earthquake environment, I gave no thought to the "Trans Bay Tunnel."

Post 9/11 but Pre-Madrid - I think about terrorism, and the earthquake risk, and the "Trans Bay Tunnel", but generally go BART. (Unless LA or The City or NYC or DC was at an elevated threat level--->

<>

Post 9/11. post-Madrid, post-London - haven't taken BART to The City - I take CALTRAIN and avoid the "Trans Bay Tunnel". But, I do take BART to Oakland.

Do I have "Advance Warning" -- well yes -- I go to the Red Cross or county OES web site at look for the "Terra Level"-->

<>

and if the 'Terra Level" is "HIGH" - I avoid the "Trans Bay Tunnel" and go with CalTrain.

That's what any private "Security Consultant" would do for its clients.

[lovuian]

81. Yahoo News and it sounds like a planted story!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/jordan_explosion

Significantly, the victims also included some two dozen Palestinians with roots in the West Bank. Among them were the West Bank's intelligence chief, Maj. Gen. Bashir Nafeh, a diplomat and a prominent banker. Many Jordanians and Palestinians have supported the Iraqi insurgency, but the hotel bombings could tip Arab sentiment against al-Zarqawi.

In the West Bank village of Silet al-Thaher, members of the Akhras family mourned 13 of their relatives killed during a wedding party at the Radisson.

"Oh my God, oh my God. Is it possible that Arabs are killing Arabs, Muslims killing Muslims? For what did they do that?" screamed 35-year-old Najah Akhras, who lost two nieces in the attack. Similar thoughts were heard over and over throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Nader Akhras of Arlington, Texas, said at least 16 of his relatives were killed in the blast at the Radisson SAS and others were wounded, including two U.S. citizens who live in the Caribbean island of St. Thomas.

Al-Qaida in Iraq, which appears to be expanding its operations outside of Iraq, said the bombings put the United States on notice that the "backyard camp for the Crusader army is now in the range of fire of the holy warriors."

But later Thursday, in an apparent response to the protests, al-Zarqawi's group took the rare step of trying "to explain for Muslims part of the reason the holy warriors targeted these dens
snip...

In addition to the two Americans, the dead included 33 Jordanians, many with families ties to the Palestinian West Bank; six Iraqis; two Bahrainis; at least two Chinese; one Indonesian; and one Saudi. The others had not yet been identified. Officials said the death toll of 59 — which includes the three attackers — could rise because several of the 100 or so wounded victims were seriously hurt.

When you read this article it has the King of Jordan calling for blood and Bush calling for blood!!!

but I really would like someone to explain to me how killing the Palestinian major general of Palistinian Intelligence benefits Al Quida??? somethings fishy people here!!!

[Behind the Aegis]

82. Maybe Hamas or IJ assassinated a rival.

[lovuian]

84. Now thats a thought under the guise of Alquida!!!

Interesting twists and turns!!!

[Behind the Aegis]

85. Like a really warped puzzle...

The Grand Hyatt was the first hotel hit. This is where two high ranking Palestinian officials were murdered.

Maj.-Gen. Bashir Nafeh, the head of military intelligence in the West Bank, and Col. Abed Allun, a high-ranking Preventive Security forces official, were killed in the attack at the Grand Hyatt Hotel, Ambassador Attala Kheri told The AP in a telephone interview.

This is also where the bomber was stopped by Jordanian hotel security and witnesses claim the man spoke with an Iraqi accent.

Within minutes, the Radisson SAS hotel was hit next, popular with Israelis and American business men. However, the bomber, instead of going to the bar filled (apparently) with a few American business men, went into a wedding of 250 people. Many of those people had ties to the West Bank..

The Days Inn is located three kilometers away from the other two hotels and was attacked by a car-bomber (person still in the car). I think, I could be wrong, but this hotel is closest to the Israeli consulate (embassy?) in Amman.

All aforementioned information is from a Ha'Aretz piece.

A very real power struggle is taking place in the PA now. Hamas wants to lead, yet, even the PA doesn't want that. Also, only three days ago, Jordan officially refused to allow Hamas to use Jordan as their official HQ (Hamas is getting the boot from Syria, supposedly).

So, it really could be al-Qaida or it could be a plant OR maybe there was some collusion between the two groups. Hamas does the dirty work, but doesn't get the blame (and lose support in Palestine and the West Bank) and al-Qaida, already hated in Jordan, takes the blame.

:shrug:

On edit: corrected word...adding this thought: If Israeli citizens were evacuated prior to the bombings, this might even add more creedance to Hamas' involvement, as Israeli intelligence has much better information on Hamas than al-Qaida.

2nd edit: Well, this new info twists my first edit a little: (thanks Barb!)

update from Palestine Media Center

http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=1&id=1032

--snip--

An official Jordanian spokesman categorically denied on Thursday a report by the Israeli daily Haaretz that a number of Israelis staying at the Radisson hotel were evacuated before the bombing by Jordanian security forces and escorted back to Israel by security personnel.

Israel's counter-terror headquarters on Wednesday recommended Israeli citizens not travel in Jordan, Haaretz said.

Jordan’s Deputy Prime Minister Marwan Muasher said that most of the victims were Jordanians.

However media reports that the wedding party, where most of the victims fell, was for a Palestinian family.

--snip--

[Coastie for Truth]

86. Could this be the first battle in a Palestinian War

between Palestinian War Lords?

BTW- these terrorists are not dumb- when they hit the HaCarmel Industrial Park area (IBM, Microsoft, Intel, etc.) - they attack the fast food joints across the street (and NOT during lunch hour or coffee break time) --- maybe too many Palestinians work for the tech companies.

[lovuian]

89. of course an official Jordanian would deny the report cause

Jordan would look terrible if they evacuated Israelis first and not their people!!!

Its a puzzle???

[Coastie for Truth]

93. It is no puzzle if you have ever actually been on scene of an "event"

(e.g., plane crash; major fire with large number of displaced an/or injured and/or killed; major chemical plant or oil refinery accident; major natural disaster) and seen the rumors and how the MSM (and alternative media) can really screw it up.

I respond to major apartment fires with large numbers of "ESL", Section VIII people displaced and now homeless (note my avatar - it's the "new" Red Cross logo) - and routinely the newspaper stories and tv news stories are screwed up- and remain so for 36-48 hours.