Clip: Andy Rooney's naive, racist remarks on "Imus In The Morning"

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

I heard this crap this monring and couldn't believe my ears...

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/11/04.html#a5707



Andy Rooney: Negro is a good word

I was watching Imus this morning and heard this exchange between Andy Rooney and Don.

Video-WMP

Video-QT (Hat tip The Political Teen for saving me the trouble of making the clip) still loading on the server

ROONEY:The word negro, which is a perfectly good word, it’s a strong word and a good word. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

How do you feel about this?

12:30:58 PM permalink12:30:58 PM

[Journeyman]

1. I don't know. Let's ask the United Negro College Fund. . .

see what they have to say about it. . .

[annabanana]

4. also ask the NAACP

What they think..
The age (and accent) of the speaker should be taken into account.

[Clark2008]

94. Precisely.

My great-grandfather used to use words like "Negro" and "colored" and he spent his spare time (volunteered) training young black men and women in electrical engineering at the local community outreach program. He certainly was no racist, but he grew up in a time when those were the words used.

Andy Rooney is just a shade younger than what my great-grandfather would be if he was still living.

[Tomee450]

117. Age is no excuse

I have relatives and friends the same age as Rooney. They don't refer to blacks as Negroes and Rooney shouldn't either. I have a friend who, in later years, decided she did not like her first name and told her friends to call her by her middle name. We did so without any problem. It's called respect.

[Toots]

160. How about Caucasian?

Is that also considered a racist word?

[ultraist]

176. Why would caucasian be considered racist?

Caucasian was coined by whites and never used as an offensive term to oppress people.

[JohnnyCougar]

5. Exactly.

I'm not so sure that Rooney's remarks resemble racism at all. This is taking Political Correctness too far.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

7. Good point, but listen to the whole exchange...

...Rooney seems to take issue with using the term "African-American."

:patriot:

[mzteris]

18. I use AA, but I think it's silly, really

just like any other "whateverethinicgroup-American".

There's a story I heard in my Black Popular Culture class about Maya Angelou. She went to Nigeria many many years ago and referred to herself as an "African American". One of the Nigerian women corrected her, "you are American, you are not African. *I* am African."

[TrueAmerican]

27. Is a Canadian an American

Or a Brazilian? South or North????

I'm a Californian, myself.

[mzteris]

30. I know......

I used to say that it meant that Jewish American and Egyptians were "African Americans, too" (along with the white supremicist crowd from Johannesburg, etc.....) but too many people got mad at me for it. :( Though I don't why. It's not like it's an insult!

[Tomee450]

33. I am African American

and this is a subject that annoys the heck out of me. Why should any member of another community be concerned about what black people call themselves. Is it just another need for control? In the past it was whites who named us. They called us Negro, coloreds, Nigras, N---ers and other vile names. Then blacks decided that they would chose what name to use and some whites became outraged. All my life I've heard whites refer to themselves as Irish, Scottish, English, Italian etc. The American part was not even mentioned. When blacks decided to recognize the continent of their ancestors, suddenly it's a big thing. Why? Is it just a continued need for dominance by some in the majority community? I couldn't care less what another group calls itself. But then, I have no wish to control another community. As I said, this concern by others not of my community about what blacks should call themselves is quite irritating to me.It's nobody's business but the African American community. As for as Andy Rooney is concerned, he should know better. It is deeply disrespectful to refer to a person or community by a name not of their choosing.

[mzteris]

36. I don't subscribe to white Americans

using their supposed european land of origin as a modifier, either.

Unless the person - themself - "came over on the boat" - they're AMERICAN, in my book. Why do we even NEED "ethnic qualifiers"?

I remember when Blacks started calling themselves BLACK - and that was the accepted word.

It'll change again. Probably not in the too distant future. I've been through at least four "acceptable terms" in my nearly 50 years.

BTW - Did you see my post about what the Nigerian woman said to Maya Angelou?

[Tomee450]

46. It doesn't matter what ;you think

of the term. What matters is that a population has decided that it wishes to be called by a certain name. It's all about respect and I don't understand why that should be so hard to understand. I don't care what the Nigerian woman said either. Black people for the most part accept the term African American, a term chosen by blacks. I don't see why it should matter to you or anyone else what my community calls itself. I have never objected to any white person describing himself as being French, German, Polish, etc. It was their business not mine. If someone is proud of his heritage and acts to recognize it, fine with me.

[mzteris]

50. a term chosen by blacks

Not ALL blacks.

Some find it kinda silly, too. I spent a semester in a roomful of young AA's and one old Black Panther professor - and it was discussed at length. Not everyone agrees with the term.

Don't go getting all mad. And it DOES matter to me - whether you believe that or not.

If you would read carefully, I think ALL of the "land or origin descriptors" is silly - regardless of skin color!


We're all AMERICANs, you know!

I long for the day when NO "ethnic descriptor" is necessary to describe a PERSON. The color of ones skin shouldn't matter one whit. Do we go around saying the blue-eyed? or the red-haired?

How about the this is a good person descriptor? or honest? or nice?

Though the way things are going it seems to matter more whether one is a fundie or not or a conservative/liberal or republican/democrat. :shrug:

[noiretextatique]

56. time for another chorus of: WE are not all americans, you know?

but i hear you about land of origin descriptors. the katrina exercise showed...in living color...exactly the opposite of thw "we are all americans" meme. some even called the survivors "refugees." i have often said that black people aren't really considered citizens in this country, and katrina proved me right.

[mzteris]

60. let's clarify

not all people consider all black people "citizens" -

and please remember - those same people consider ME to be a second class citizen as well. Along with anyone not white fundie straight male!


We ARE all Americans! It's up to us to help seal that in the hearts and minds of the public. Not be more divisive.

[noiretextatique]

65. america was never america to me

a line from a poem by langston hughes. i am all for a real sense of belonging to this country, unfortunately i have yet to experience it.

[fishwax]

89. What do you mean "Not to be more divisive"?

Do you think the term "African American" is somehow divisive? Or were you referring to something else.

[mzteris]

146. setting apart

is divisive, imo.

like: I'm this, and you're not. You're that, and I'm not. We're too different to coexist. You just stay over there with "your kind" and I'll stay over here with "my kind" and things'll just stay fine and dandy.

That's the way I see it anyways.

[noiretextatique]

170. apart from whom?

in a multi-cultural society, exactly who are people setting themselves apart from?

[goclark]

118. I agree

Katrina put it all on the line didn't it.


The 21st Century version of Slavery.

[hfojvt]

172. because of the word 'refugee'?

Probably this has been debated to death, but I missed that debate, and so I am unconvinced that the word 'refugee' proves anything. A refugee is 'a person taking refuge'. The dictionary adds - "especially in a foreign country, from war, persecution, or natural disaster."

It is interesting that my older dictionary does not specify natural disasters. However, the word 'especially' means 'usually' not 'always'. Meaning anyone can be a refugee in their own country.

[noiretextatique]

173. right...when have you heard that word used to describes americans?

displaced by a natural disaster? i don't recall it being used in california when we had the big earthquakes.

[Tomee450]

59. Most blacks use the terms African American

and black interchangeably. Most blacks are not offended, as whites appear to be, by the use of African American. I cannot understand why whites should care at all what blacks call themselves unless it is a need to control.

[mzteris]

66. I'm not offended by the term

AA, I just don't think it's a very good one.

I don't want to "control" - I want to help liberate.

And IMHO, keeping oneself separate and apart only serves to accentuate the negatives.

I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way. Please know that I am trying very hard in my journey to understand FULLY as best I can.

[hfojvt]

171. it is not a matter of offense

it is a matter of the 'correctness police'. Andy Rooney is probably not offended by the term "African American" what is more offensive is someone getting all righteously indignant about his use of the term 'negro'. That for fifty years of his life it was perfectly okay to use the word negro, now, all of the sudden, it is not. It is, of course, possible that black people feel the same way as Spock when he grabbed Bones and said: "I don't like that. I don't think I ever did, and I am sure now."

It is not about what blacks call themselves, it is about what blacks ask, or demand, that whites call them. So far, except for this internet exchange, I have only had other whites, actually only my niece repeating what she learned in school from a white grade-school teacher, say that I must use the term African American instead of black. I have heard from one black woman that she thought the term African American was stupid and she prefered the term 'black'. So who am I going to believe? All the black people I have known, or a twelve year old kid?

[noiretextatique]

174. either one is fine

it's a bitch having to deal with people's self-defintions, and of course...it is ever-evolving. it was easier when white people made those decisions for everyone, when that was considered correct, but those days are gone.

[alarcojon]

73. I agree

the poster is making it sound like "African-American" enjoys some sort of universal acceptance among (heh-heh) African Americans. I seriously doubt the truth of that statement. If anyone is aware of any polling on this issue, I would be interested in looking at it.

For the record, I completely agree that the members of a group should be able to decide what they should be called. The problem is lack of consensus. I would prefer to be called "Latino," for example, but I know plenty of people who prefer "Hispanic" (or, as I like to refer to it, His Panic).

If a friend of mine prefers "African-American," I wil use that term around them out of respect. Ditto if they prefer "black." Since I don't plan on hanging out with Stanley Crouch, I don't think I'll be using "Negro." B-)

[fishwax]

92. I agree with you Tomee

I've never understood the resistance to terms like African American.

I once worked for an educational publishing company that used the word "Eskimo" in some of its literature, but they removed that language in a revision I worked on because the term was offensive. One of the owners of the company was FURIOUS when they found out, to the point that she yelled at our author in a meeting. This owner didn't think we should "give in" to such political correctness. :puke: it was revolting. Fortunately, the change had been made and the owner couldn't stop it, but that conflict was part of what got me looking for a new job.

[Tomee450]

114. I think it's probably

about the need to control and a lack of respect. I guess some people still believe that black people lack the intelligence to decide what is best for them.

[ultraist]

175. I agree, Tomee.

If a particular group define themselves that way, who are those not of the group to say it's wrong?

I've never heard anyone complain about the use of "Italian-Americans" or festivals that celebrate a particular ethnicity (Irish-American, Mexican-American, etc).

This is the not the first time Rooney said something considered racist on the air. In fact, years ago he was suspended for making a racist comment.

I think some people are simply threatened by diversity and twist "Respect for diversity" as being divisive. It's a passive agressive form of white supremacy.

[bluedawg12]

134. I agree, the group defines itself. Rooney is nuts.

If African American is the prefered language it's what I will say.

Rooney is an old fool trying to be relevant and clever. He is neither.

[fishwax]

88. Who cares if it changes again. It's not that hard to keep up.

It's not a difficult thing to use whatever term is most appropriate at the time.

Demographic groups will be referred to in some way. "African American" is preferred to Black. What's the problem with that?

[mzteris]

147. sigh

It's not a problem.

Geesh. It is so difficult to understand that I'm trying to understand why people think using AFRICA to describe who they are when no one in their family lived there in over 200 years is just stretching it a LITTLE? (I say the same about Italians and Germans, etc., too......)

[Tomee450]

150. But it still is none

of your business what another group calls itself. The world hasn't ended since the term came into use. Is that use hurting anyone? The answer is no. Whites have been recognizing their ethnicity forever without anyone being upset. Why don't you leave it alone. A group has a right to define itself without interference from others. Blacks being called African Americans should not be of concern to you.
Calling a group by the name most of them accept is not divisive. What is divisive is such things as whites moving out of an area when blacks move in, whites taking their children out of schools when a certain percentage of the students are black, whites being given lower sentences than blacks who have committed the same crime, strip searching black women for drugs even though they are known to take fewer drugs, white talk show hosts spewing anti-black vitriol over the airways on a daily basis, blacks being charged higher interest rates. The list of injustices is long. There are many things that divide the races. Blacks calling themselves African Americans is not one of them.

[noiretextatique]

168. i must admit...it don't get the "divisive" thing

as someone has said repeatedly in this thread: i don't understand it. and unlike that person, i truly don't understand it :7

[ultraist]

178. The "divisive" excuse is passive agressive white supremacy

It's a round about way to suppress diversity and disallow any respect for diversity.

The out dated melting pot (Homogenuity) concept vs. the Quilts concept.

Some Americans are very threatened by any type of diversity (racial, ethnic, socio-economic)and push for segregation to create homogenuity.

[noiretextatique]

180. thanks...

i don't see the push for segregation in this thread, but rather the belief that acknowledging diversity is somehow "disrespectful" to "good" white people, and even racist, hence the "divisive" label. i also get the sense that some people feel "excluded" by hyphenated americans. what i don't see much of is ownership of those feelings, as in they are mine and i need to do something about them. it seems the burden of healing those feelings is projected onto someone else. someone took offense because i said i had to leave this country to know what it meant to be american...i have been twice accused of being "racist" and indicting good white people as racists for making that statement. frankly...some people just aren't ready to hear MY reality. and even more than that...they will argue me to death about it, as if i should replace my opinion with theirs :7 i noticed this a lot in grad school, especially in a creativity class where i posted some of my poems. people were actually "offended" by a poem i wrote about my great grandmother's life experience...of being terorized by the KKK and forced off her land. people TOOK OFFENSE to that TRUE story, as if i was somehow being disrespectful to them for telling it...amazing. it caused such a problem that the professor had to intervene to tell folks: you can't "object" to someone's life experience, and you can't control what people write about their life experience.
unfuckingbelieveable...but true, and in 1996, not 1896 :7

[ultraist]

184. *sigh*

people TOOK OFFENSE to that TRUE story, as if i was somehow being disrespectful to them for telling it...

How sad. :hug:


You know, some people may not seem ready to hear your reality or the truth for that matter, but there are those of us who are listening.

I've learned so much by reading your posts and I'm certain many others have too. ;)

[noiretextatique]

185. likewise

:thumbsup: i appreciate your voice, and have been an admirer for some time :thumbsup:

[brmdp3123]

38. Your point is well taken.

In those rare instances when it is necessary to refer to a person's ethnicity, it is respectful to use the term of their choosing. My point though, would be that it is rarely necessary to make that reference, and the less it's done, the better.

[daveskilt]

43. In the UK no one says African-Britain. You're just British

Or if you were born somewhere outside of Britain you might be Nigerian, or Egyptian, or from Botswana, or any other African country or culture.

African American has always been a wierd term for me. I grew up in Britain with people from many different African countries. They all have different languages, cultures, ethnicities etc and to call someone African or Asian seems a strange thing that US people do.

I know that many African Americans don't know if they were descended from one countries popualtion or another - and that most "african americans" are more Scottish or Irish than a lot of white americans who claim to be Irish. (incidentally as a Scotsman - Americans who tell me they are Scottish really get on my nerves)

The point is if you don't have any idea what your ancestry is then you are American. period. live with it. African American has nothing to do with the continent though - it is a term for a shared cultural identity of oppression.

But then the term Asian American seems as much of a name given out by whitey as colored or negro. In the UK no one would ever think someone from Pakistan had the same heritage as a person from Japan (or even from India)

Really the US needs to get over its past and grow up and realize an American is an American is an American and all need to treated the same regardless of skin tone.

[noiretextatique]

47. most blacks in america do have some idea of their ancestry

probably a lot more than you realize. but i agree with you that americans need to grow the fuck up :7

[Tomee450]

52. Why should it concern anyone what another group

calls itself. I think it is a wish to control. Black people take nothing from anyone when calling themselves African Americans. Black people were tired of having another population dictate to them how they should be described. These were the same people who owned their ancestors and who kept their descendants in Jim crow for over a hundred years. It would seem that you would understand why blacks feel the way they do. For most of our history in this country, our lives have been controlled by whites who stripped us of our African heritage. If we want to recognize the continent of our ancestors, why should that bother you or anyone else.

[daveskilt]

76. doesnt bother me - just an intersting term

Africa is so vast with so many very different populations - African American is such a broad and universal term. I wonder if anyone thought about the idea that it is so universal and is not a name for a minority but a name that suggests inclusiveness - Africa has been home to christians, muslims, hindus, every skin tone and thousands of languages. Universal American.

OR

is it still a term of defining a smaller group as one who was (and is) oppressed.

OR

as used by white people in america it can mean just anyone with darker skin. which is so narrow as to be hilarious. Is a Kenyan in America an african american? of course not.

Names are about who is using them as much as who gave them and who they refer to. nigger has a hugely different meaning when used by a white american, a black american, or a japanese history professor.


Also the irony is the restriction of a person to one check box on the EEOC section of an application. I mean really who in America is really "African" or "Scottish" To me that is as absurd as me saying I am part Pict, part Norman, part Saxon or part Norse. Even more strange is to pick one of those groups that make up the heritage of a lot of Scottish people and run around saying I am Pictish! or Gael!

It may be time for Americans to get to being Americans and get their own cultural identity that applies to all of them.

[goclark]

79. This African American completely agrees with you Tomee!

I am so tired of Whites telling us how to think and what they think we should be called.

Who the hell is Andy Loony Rooney to tell us what to call ourselves? Any one with a name like Andy Rooney needs to shut up. :)

When did he become our dictionary?

WE will decide what we call ourselves without his help.

One think I enjoy about being African American is that our cultures seems to bat down names that others decide we will like.


Lets take the word SLAVE.

We silently decided that SLAVE would be the last time that Whites decided they would call us to our face.

Oh, I forgot the N----- word, that is a fighting word unless WE select it for each other.

[Tomee450]

115. It gets so tiresome.

Some people seem to have the same attitude that blacks encountered during the Jim Crow era. There is still that belief that others must make decisions for the black community.

[ninkasi]

141. As a white woman

I have always believe that it is up to each person, or group, to decide how they want to self-identify and how they want to be called. Why should I decide what to call you? I can't, nor do I have that right, or desire.

My first husband was born in Mexico, and came to this country as a young child, and was a naturalized citizen. He personally considered himself to be just American, and didn't care to self identify as Latino, or Hispanic, but that was his right.

You should be known as by whatever term you wish, because it's your right.

[mzteris]

149. I think you're looking for a problem where none exists.

I'll call you little lord fauntleroy if that's what you want, but let's have a dialogue about why you think that's important. Is that too much to ask without everyone getting all huffy?

I love my son with every fiber of my being and want the best the world has to offer for him. That I will do any and every thing in my power to facilitate that for him shouldn't come as any surprise. I want to be the best Mom I can be for all of my children.

There is knowledge that would be beneficial for me to have (that I do not know due to my non-African-American-ness) in order to proved the BEST parenting I possibly can. I pursue it in any way that I can. Mostly by asking questions. And clarification. Trying to enter into a non-hostile dialogue with people who recognize that I want to give my son the best opportunity for happiness in his life with a strong sense of self worth and a proud identity as a black/African American male. I am trying my hardest to truly comprehend.

[Bluerthanblue]

108. you SAID it- and you are

entitled to speak with the authority of one who has a 'right' to determine what you feel is 'appropriate'.

As the white mother of an African American son, I thank you for speaking up for him- as I hope he will one day be able to do in such a eloquent, instructive manner.

Mr. Rooney would be better suited to discussing the acceptability of the use of the moniker of "Mick", or "Geezer"-

[Tomee450]

120. You're welcome and

thanks for trying to understand my point of view.

[Solomon]

111. Extremely well said! (Bowing solemnly)

:thumbsup:

[Tomee450]

121. Thank you.

[Fla Dem]

138. Frankly, I see no reson to automatically racially label anyone. Negro

is a race classification, just like Asian, Latino, Caucasian. I am nationally an American, my heritage is Italian and Irish, my race is Caucasian. To me race identification is just an anthropological classification.

[LWolf]

140. Is there actually one term that 100%

of Americans of African descent agree on, or prefer?

If so, why is there still the NAACP, etc.?

If so, why does my good friend prefer the term "colored?" In her words:

"I'm not black. I'm brown. My family comes in several shades of brown, and so do all my people. It's been a lot of generations since any of my elders came from Africa; we don't know who they were or anything about them. We're not African, any more than you are English or Cherokee. We're Americans, and we come in all colors. If we really want to move forward, all colors need to do so together. I'm proud to be "colored."

I don't mind using whatever term affords the most respect, or the most identity, or the most of whatever people want. I just need to know when "Black," or "Colored," or "African American," or "Negro" is the correct term. If some will take offense at one, and others prefer another, which do I choose? For that matter, is hispanic or asian ok, or does it need to be Mexican-American, Chinese-American, etc.? I'm fine with "caucasian," although it isn't completely accurate. I've never needed to attach the different nations or continents that my ancestors came from to that. Or white, if that is what someone is comfortable with. I don't even correct them; what term should we be using for blended people, and does it have to be different for all the different kinds of blends out there?

And then there is this issue: I've had a really difficult time dealing with the idea that it's ok for a group to call each other a perjorative that I wouldn't use. I guess if you've grown up being taught, and teaching others, not to use racial epithets, it's hard to hear members of that race use it on each other. I guess, in that case, it's all in the intent behind the word. I still wouldn't use it; it would still feel disrespectful, even if I didn't mean it that way, and I don't think that it would be received harmlessly, either.

Until there is one term chosen by all, I guess I'll just muddle along hoping that I use the right one with the right people, and that my good intentions are apparent.

[Tomee450]

143. You and others are

just making a problem where none exists. By now, most people in this country should know that the descriptions, African AMerican or black are acceptable to the majority of black people. Most will not be offended if called either one. I know of no black person who still want to be called a Negro.

Why should you be concerned that blacks use the N word with each other? I disapprove of that but I don't see why it should upset you so much. Blacks using the word does not come with the same baggage as it does when whites use it. Blacks don't think each other to be inferior, a lot of whites who hurl that slur do. So why would you want to use it given the history of relations between whites and blacks in this country? Black people have been lynched as whites celebrated while calling the poor victims n----s. I wish young blacks would never use the N word but it does not come with the kind of hatred that is evident when whites use it when referring to blacks.
I've heard whites calling poor whites trash and rednecks. Not for one instance did I get upset and wonder why I shouldn't be able to hurl those slurs.

Change occurs in societies and people adjust to those changes. I don't see why it is so difficult for people to just call people by the names they have chosen to be called. Why wish to continue calling them by a term that has been rejected. It's all about respect.

[LWolf]

144. For the record,

I didn't say I wanted to use that "term." I said it bothered me to hear it used within the Black, African American, or label of your choice community, because even though I know intellectually that it's not said with the same baggage, emotionally I react.

I don't think I'm trying to make a problem. I don't have a problem, except the visceral reaction I get to the big "N," even when it's used "without the baggage."

I thought it was others who had the problem with which non-perjorative term is used, or not.

[goclark]

151. Most people will self identify

I call myself African American because I am proud of my African heritage.

I grew up in an Southern kinda town and "colored" and "Negro" were used there in the 50's.

I didn't like it then and I don't like either classification now. It reminds me of signs on the water fountains .


Some multi racials like to be called colored, if it makes them feel good so be it.

NAACP is called that because it is an organization that has been around for many years and we see it as a reminder that we had to fight like hell to call OURSELVES what we wanted, so the name doesn't bother most that I know.

My idea for fair thinking Whites is to make real sure who you call what.

We can call ourselves a lot of things but if someone said to me,"You are a really nice colored girl," I wouldn't like it. That's just me.

I would just want to be called a nice PERSON.

[LWolf]

153. And that's exactly how I'd see you.

As a person. I'd rather not classify you, or anyone else, by any physical characteristic.

It is interesting, and informative, to hear this and other related conversations, though.

[noiretextatique]

45. unless she emigrates here

the she would be an african-american too.

[mzteris]

53. I think you missed the point

:shrug:

[noiretextatique]

61. no...i didn't: the point is

she has no more business telling someone else what they are and are not than anyone else. i have relatives who emigrated here from madagascar after slavery...does that make me more or less african than maya angelou or that woman?

[mzteris]

67. Unless you grew up in Africa

you're not African. That's my opinion.

Just like if you didn't grow up in England, you're not British, or in Spain, you're not Spanish or in China, you're not Chinese.

[noiretextatique]

70. your opinion notwithstanding

i know africans who grew up here. do you think it's YOUR PLACE to tell them they aren't africans? i don't.

[mzteris]

81. "i know africans who grew up here."

Well then, I suppose if they became citizens they WOULD be African Americans. :)

I never said I was speaking for others. It's not "my place" to tell anyone anything. I thought we were trying to have a thoughtful discussion of the issue.

It IS a VERY important issue to me and I'm interested in hearing other POV's and reasonsed debate as to why people might think my opinion is all wet.

Should I refer to myself as an English/Irish/Scottish/Creek/ Cherokee/probably some African/and who knows what else???/American?

[noiretextatique]

82. i am telling you, as a part of this discussion

that you certainly have a right to your opinion, but that if voiced it to someone, you just might offend them. and unlike you...i don't care what you call yourself, and have no opinion about it...it's your choice. :shrug:

[mzteris]

84. What do you mean "unlike me"?

I USE the term AA ALL the time! It's not like I refuse to or anything - I respect the AA community's right and decision to call themselves whatever they decide (except I forbade use of the "N" word even by blacks at work as I think it is a particularly filthy word, period! - and it gives "whites" license/excuse to use it, too and then cry foul if they got gigged for it. but I digress.)

I just - don't understand - the need for the MODIFIER. It IS important to me - as an American, as a human being, as a Mom to my beautiful black son.

[noiretextatique]

90. you don't have to understand it

you just have to accept it.
aren't you the one who keeps saying people aren't this or that unless they are born somewhere or another? i understand those may be beliefs you don't necessarily act on, but as i mentioned, if you did, i think you would definitely offend someone. ever consider that people don't want to be just american, because of what that term stands for? perhaps some people want to disassociate themselves from what american has meant, and what it certainly means now.
i'm all for taking the language back, and as soon as the country is headed a better direction, i will be the first one to do it.

[mzteris]

109. Oh I accept it.

I just question it. As a legitimate exercise in trying to UNDERSTAND it! (I'm that kinda gal, doncha know. :) )

What about blacks living in other countries? Britain and Canada, etc.? What do they call themselves? I'd think that'd be a better bellweather than racist America.

But what do I know. I'm just some cracker from Georgia who became at least somewhat enlightened in my struggles to understand.

Everytime I think I've made progress I get confronted by "you just don't understand". Maybe I don't. Though IMHO being female offers some degree of "understanding" as to what it's like I should think. I know what it's like to be discriminated against and abused just because of "what" I am and add to that the fact that my daughter's father is gay and one of my sons is black and I have had some experience with being maltreated and looked askance and the whole spectrum - from across the spectrum!

[noiretextatique]

126. why question it?

really...what purpose does it serve for you? as a woman, you are likely very familiar with other people's attempts to define you...what you are and what you can be and what you should and should not do...FOR YOU.
it's the same for gay people and black people and other people. we also have to define ourselves, often battling against people who reserve the right to do that for us.

[mzteris]

131. because is doesn't make sense to me.

I know. I know. It doesn't HAVE to make sense to ME! I really do understand that.

I just DON"T understand the geographical "qualifier" - it's just not logical to me - and I'm really really TRYING to understand why others think it's a "good idea".

I think it grew out of the attempt - back in the 70's - the whole back to Africa movement, Kwaanza and naturals and batiking, etc...... - to reclaim the lost identity that was stripped from AA's when then they were forcibly removed from their country/tribes/lives/families, etc ... I understand that, really.

But, to me, after two hundred plus years, the country of great great's origin ceases to be the defining factor.

I just think a different term might be more accurate. (I know. I know. It doesn't matter what I think. :) )

[noiretextatique]

132. what term is it that you think would be more accurate?

and WHY is it so important to you? i am really not understanding that at all. if your black son decides he wants to call himself "african-american," would that pose some problem for you, given your beliefs that he should call himself something less qualified?
and of it's not a "geograhpical qualifer," it is a cultural one, much like "italian" and so on. furthermore, it's not like these groups didn't try to assimilate...and you should know that by now. assimiliating with people who don't want you there in the first place is rather difficult. it's not names that create diviseness...the diviseness was already there to begin with. a part of that diviseness is the insistence on defining and controlling even the most basic things (like names), a part of the jim crow legacy when terms like "coloreds" were acceptable to whites.
and perhaps you should read up on the movements of the 70's, particularly the women's movement. batiking...intersting.

[mzteris]

145. "and WHY is it so important to you?"

Because UNDERSTANDING THINGS is important to me in general!! (It's kind of a thing about me.) And this - in specific - is even MORE important to me BECAUSE of my son.

I'm sorry if I'm seeming dense here, but I just don't GET IT. I understand exactly what you're saying, truly, but I completely and totally disagree with using these types of qualifiers. Will I use them? Unqualifiedly - Yes, of course. And, if you wanted to call yourself xyzdowadidi - then that's what I'd use. But you'd better believe I'd be asking 24/7 why the HECk did you chose THAT?? :)

**if your black son decides he wants to call himself "african-american," would that pose some problem for you, given your beliefs that he should call himself something less qualified?**

No. I support my son in all ways that is humanly possible. Though he doesn't get being called "black", either. He thinks he's dark brown. :) The term "moreno" - used at the bilingual (spanish) school he attends to refer to AA's - makes much more sense to him.

That's another thing. There are many "black" children/teachers at his school, but they are from Central/South America. They do not think of themselves as African Americans. They do not identify at all with "African Americans". They are Dominican or Columbian - period. That the teacher in the next classroom is also Dominican or Columbian yet their skin is of a different shade NEVER enters into the distinction or description of WHO they are.

**and of it's not a "geograhpical qualifer," it is a cultural one, much like "italian" and so on. **

Ah. But Italian refers to Italy, does it not? And to me Italian American is in the same realm of my miscomprehension.

**rthermore, it's not like these groups didn't try to assimilate...and you should know that by now. assimiliating with people who don't want you there in the first place is rather difficult.**

Not really. Many immigrants faced rampant racism and a rejection by the people already here yet assimilated - Irish and Jewishto name a couple. Black Americans had/have a harder time "assimilating" due to genetic characteristics. (That, and the sad sorry history of America in its treatment of AA's. )

s not names that create diviseness...the diviseness was already there to begin with. **

True - the names didn't CREATE the problem but they can sure contribute to a continued "setting apart", can't they?

**a part of that diviseness is the insistence on defining and controlling even the most basic things (like names), a part of the jim crow legacy when terms like "coloreds" were acceptable to whites. **

When I was a girl, "colored" was the accepted term. (NAACP, anyone?)

**and perhaps you should read up on the movements of the 70's, particularly the women's movement. batiking...intersting.**

Read up on it? Honey, I lived through it. :rofl:

[noiretextatique]

163. so, you do understand it

but you don't accept it...because you think it should be the way you think it should be.
that means: you are advocating a position, not seeking understanding...so why the pretense? this is what's "divisive"...pretending you don't understand something, when in reality, you just really want your way. smacks of privilege, if you ask me.
and...if this was about what you call yourself...i would understand your position. but since it isn't...why is it so important to you?
it's "understanding" is not the problem for you: so what is?
batiking...i will have to research that part of the black consciousness movement.
there are many subcultures (e.g., various ethnic groups, gays and lesbians, professional and vocational groups, etc) within the united states. there is no reason the assume ethinic groups are affliated with their country of origin, since american culture is not now and has never been homogeneous. yeah...genetics has continues to be a problem for some in america...reservations, slavery, jim crow, interment, katrina, etc. again...perhaps that meaning of "american" is something that some people feel the need to qualify.

[mzteris]

165. Please,

are you deliberately being argumentative? Or is it maybe you just think *I* am.

I understand what you're *saying*, but I don't understand WHY you're saying it. To ME = get that to ME, it does NOT MAKE SENSE. It means nothing in actuality. People from Johannesburg and from Cairo and Jerusalem would also be "African American". Remember the brouhaha when Teresa Heinz Kerry said SHE was an "African American"? Makes as much sense - more really - at least she LIVED there - than applying it to people who've never stepped foot there.

I am NOT trying to be whatever it is you're trying to paint me to be in this so please stop trying to make me out to be some sort of bad guy. Uh girl, woman, whatever.

There is no freaking "pretense". I think it is patently RIDICULOUS to ascribe some sort of geographical appendage to "AMERICAN" - whether it is German, Italian, or African, or anything else. Does that mean you think I'm some sort of closet racist against every country in the world?

Gimme a break.

I think it's divisive to set oneself apart - for whatever reason. I think finding common ground is more important.

Does racism exist in America? Hell yes. I KNOW that. I live with it every day.

Privilege? You mean WHITE PRIVILEGE? I highly recommend that ALL White people read White Privilege by Peggy McIntosh, it's excellent! (I do that all the time on here. If you don't believe me, search on my past posts.)

I'm also a fan of bell hooks, Dr. Manning Marable, and Patricia Hill Collins - the last two I had the privilege of hearing in lecture and meeting.

It was Patricia Hill Collins who told me that no, I couldn't reject the white privilege I didn't WANT - she said it wasn't possible, but that I should USE it to help others whenever and however I could.

**there are many subcultures (e.g., various ethnic groups, gays and lesbians, professional and vocational groups, etc) within the united states. there is no reason the assume ethinic groups are affliated with their country of origin, since american culture is not now and has never been homogeneous. yeah...genetics has continues to be a problem for some in america...reservations, slavery, jim crow, interment, katrina, etc. again...perhaps that meaning of "american" is something that some people feel the need to qualify. ***

I'm not sure where you're going with that other than I agree with you up until that last sentence....hmmmm "Perhaps it is the meaning of "American" is what some people feel the need to qualify?" What do you mean by that?

Although, to be frank, I think Nationalism is highly overrated as well. :) Why can't we all just be NICE PEOPLE? Humans? Earthlings? LOL

I guess it all boils down to that I put more stock on what is on the INSIDE of a person, not their appearance. To focus too intently on "looks" or on "heritage" kind of misses the boat in my book.

[noiretextatique]

166. as i said: you understand

so why are we still having this conversation? you dismiss culture and still claim it's about geography...fine. you talk about "looks" and "appearance" and still dismiss culture...fine. we are NOT all the same...and that's okay. we don't have to pretend to be to satisfy someone's sense of privilege...yes, privilege. in a multi-cultural society, everyone needs to accept people as they define themselves to be, even if that offends your definition of what they should be, i.e., nice people, humans, earthlings, etc. i don't think you are a racist at all... i think you are trying to create a reality that doesn't exist, and i do think your desire for that reality is more about you than anyone else, and since you aren't alone in this opinion, i have to assume it is about privilege. i am fine with calling myself african-american or black or whatever else i choose...what business is it of yours? i have no opinion about what you or anyone else chooses to call herself...again...why is it so important to you? when a katrina exercise cannot happen in this country, with the support of a good percentage of the population, perhaps i'll change my mind. when disenfranchisement isn't considered an acceptable "glitch" perhaps that will change my mind. until then, i will continue to choose the hyphen, your opinion not withstanding. and you can choose whatever you want...one of the great things about living in this country. if that is RIDICULOUS to you, again, i suggest that is your issue to resolve, because you do understand, as much as you continue to claim you don't.

[ultraist]

183. mzteris

The fact is, there are different communities within the white "dominant" society and expressing that through various ways (racial/ethnic groups, terms, celebrations, art, music, etc) is not divisive but empowering. (Think: NAACP or Black Congressional Caucaus, for example).

[goclark]

154. How old do you have to be to "grow up in?"

Would you have to be 5 yrs. 19, 13 1/3 yrs.?

So I can't be African American because I didn't grow up in Africa?

Since I KNOW that my gggg grandparents were born in Africa, are you telling me that I can't say that I am African American because I was not 10 years and 20 seconds old and never had my feet touch the soil at a young age?


I traveled in Africa when I was 25, does that count?

Can I now have your permission to say I am African American?


Is Teresa Heinz Kerry African American because she grew up in Africa and moved to America?

I don't know if she would fit your qualifications because I'm not sure how long she lived there.

But, if she considers herself African American,which I don't think she does, that is fine with me.

Must Hallie Berry call herself White because her mother is White and her father Black?

Just asking...

[ultraist]

177. The Greek community doesn't think "it's silly" & Rooney pissed them off

http://www.ahmp.org/60minII.html

Rooney initially declined to correct the error, but after receiving more than 650 letters issued a dour retraction and apology during a May 20th broadcast. In his May 24th column, however, he lambasted Greeks as a people who derive a "perverse pleasure" from their "enduring hatred" and berated Greek-American and other immigrant groups for "not choos to be thoroughly American".
------

One can be "American" and still celebrate their heritage. What is wrong acknowledging your ancestary and enjoying the culture of your family?

What is "thoroughly American" anyway?

[noiretextatique]

181. white

that's the only thing "thoroughly American" can mean. and unfortunately that type of thinking ignores the fact that america is a multi-cultural society. i don't think rooney, like a few in this thread, understand that there are different cultures in america.

[Clark2008]

96. It is silly.

It's devisive.

Besides, my fiance, who's white, was born in South Africa to US parents. Technically, he's African-American. So is Theresa Heinz Kerry, for that matter.

[fishwax]

102. How is it divisive?

:shrug:

[noiretextatique]

133. it isn't

some feel EXCLUDED because they believe we should call ourselves "american" to honor of all the good white people of america.

[fishwax]

136. Exactly. Poor white people, they have to put up with

other groups who are too stubborn and selfish to be simply "americans." After all, didn't these people see how all Americans were moved to the plight of those REFUGEES after Katrina? :sarcasm::puke::grr:

I'm sick of all these stupid analogies about irish-prussian-nordic-Americans who "sacrifice" their heritage and choose to simply call themselves americans, as if that were somehow equivalent. If you're white, you can just be an American. But for people of color (still an acceptable and inclusive term, that), society marks and treats them differently because (drum roll) we live in a racist fucking society.

"We didn't land on Plymouth Rock; Plymouth Rock landed on us." It was society that separated African-Americans, Native Americans, Chicanos, Asian-Americans, hell even southern europeans, but society had different names for those groups: Blacks, Indians, Mexicans, as well as other cruder terms that I won't bother to repeat. I think in the minds of many, though they won't admit it, they think these groups should simply be content with what society labeled them, rather than trying to assume control over their own identity. And that's what this is really about.

Christ, etymologically speaking, the hyphenations are closer to this so-called ideal of a unified america anyway. After all, African-Americans ARE Americans, albeit modified; but Blacks, Mexicans, Chinamen, etc. don't signify American at all. (And the more derogatory derivations that preceeded are barely even human.) So the utilitarian unity argument rings hollow against the hyphenized words, clearly leaving the possibility that something more sinister is at the argument's root.

Sigh. But I know I'm preaching to the choir, so please excuse the rant :banghead:

[noiretextatique]

139. i hear you...i keep seeing this "it's divisive" bs

tossed out without explanation of exactly HOW a name is "divisive?" was "colored" "divisive?" how about "negro"...was that divisive too?
and if a white south african wanted to label himself african-american, more power to him. i DOUBT THAT HE WOULD in america, because of course that would mean giving up a certain privilege, but again: why would i care what he called himself? why does ANYONE care what anyone else calls herself?
yeah...preaching to the choir, but it's so frustrating trying to have these discussions when people toss out words like "divisive" without any discussion...it seems to be a part of the unacknowledged problem of the sense of entitlement that gives some people the impression they have the final say on everything.
peace...and i enjoyed all your posts. i am sure we'll meet again :hi:

[Deja Q]

148. We're all American...

Those of us living in America, I mean.

I dislike labels in general. One way or the other.

[Dorian Gray]

161. Rooney...

I don't think what he said was racist. Just antiquated.

It's a fine word. Just seems out-dated.

[chelsea0011]

2. Times change and language changes. Martin Luther King and

Malcom X may have use the word in the 60's but Black and Afro-American became the more exceptable use. It is like the use of minority. It is being used less and less as times change. Rooney should know that and change with the times....the old crag of a man.

[skooooo]

3. It depends on what he meant, imo.

The word was used officially from the 1950s to the mid-60s and remains in the name of the NAACP. I wouldn't use it in everyday language, but I don't think it's wise to forget history.

Same thing for "afro-american", "black", "colored" and "african american." All of these terms have a historical context and political meaning, and are good to understand, even if they are not used today. If you ever do research about the past, you will run across all of them.

However, it's an odd thing to say and I have no idea what he meant.

[hobbit709]

6. Depending how it is used

Negro in Latin means black-nothing else.

[thinkingwoman]

8. Why do white men

think anyone cares what THEY think a minority should call itself?

Where do they get this enormous sense of entitlement???

Oh yeah, it's compensation for the non-enormous package at the bottom of their torso. :eyes:

[brentspeak]

14. ?

[Neocondriac]

21. I second the ...

? and add WTF?

[thinkingwoman]

97. Isn't Andy Rooney white?

Seriously? Have I totally confused him with somebody else? If so, :blush: .

[MarianJack]

19. This White Guy...

...will call any ethnic group the name they want to be called. In my family, I'M the minority!

How did you know about my little package, thinkingwoman? :hi:

[LeftNYC]

24. My package ain't little..

:hi:

[thinkingwoman]

112. Thank you

for sharing. :hi:

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

116. It's fawse! It's fawse!

[thinkingwoman]

98. Ooooooooooopppppssss!

So sorry to have revealed! :blush:

[formernaderite]

25. No ones asking you to care...

but guess what...Andy still gets to state his beliefs. Problem with that?

[Tomee450]

35. There are plenty of things

we can say and do but perhaps shouldn't. It's nobody's business what black people call themselves. I get sick of this continuous upset over the fact that blacks have rejected being named by people not of their community. Yes, Rooney can state his opinion, and others can state he is being disrespectful and acting like a bigot. But of course in this society, there are people who feel they don't have to show any respect for black people.

[thinkingwoman]

103. Back when I was in college

a brazillian years ago (or in the late 80s), I endured a very long lecture by a smart and funny black woman who thoroughly trounced me for using the term "African American." She informed me in no uncertain terms that she was black, dammit, was there something wrong with my eyes?

That moment made it crystal clear to me that it was none of my damn business.

Thanks for pointing out that alhtough Rooney has the right to state his opinion, that any one of us also has the right to point out the bigotry inherent in his opinion. Doing so does not limit his free speech by any stretch of the imagination.

[thinkingwoman]

101. Where in my post

did I ever suggest that he didn't get to state his beliefs?

I was, in fact, stating mine. Have YOU got a problem with that?

[ultraist]

179. Andy can share his beliefs and so can we.

He's a racist pig and should yanked from airwaves.

[brmdp3123]

29. I don't think that it's a sense of entitlement.

It's partly frustration at the changing terminology. I didn't see or hear the show, and I haven't seen Andy Rooney in years, and don't know where he is on the spectrum. However, my parents are about his age, and when they were growing up 'colored' was the polite term, then it became 'Negro', then it became 'black', then it became 'Afro-American', then back to 'black', now it's 'African-American'. 'People of Color' was in there somewhere. People often use an older term not out of disrespect but out of habit. The 'n-word' of course has never been acceptable, at least not by white people.

My ancestors came from Ireland, but that was 250 years ago. I don't refer to myself as Irish-American, nor do I get offended at a good joke using the stereotype of Irishmen as being drunken lechers.

Personally I think it's all a lot of hooey. The sooner we quit putting ethnic/racial labels on people, the better off we'll be. The nicest thing that I can say about my father (don't get me wrong, I could say plenty of nice things about him) is that he never had one ounce of prejudice in him. He never once referred to anyone's race/ethnicity in conversation. They were people, period. Some were good, some were assholes. Nothing else really mattered.

[Tomee450]

37. Oh please

This country is all about race. I don't care that people of Irish or other descent recognize their ancestry. There is nothing wrong with doing so. There was never any problem with people of European descent recognizing their ancestry. Only when blacks decided to call themselves African Americans that white people started talking about us all being Americans and insisting that the African be dropped. It really annoys me. Why are white people upset over what another group calls itself? It's just plain ridiculous.

All over this country whites celebrate their heritage. We have St. Patrick day, greek festivals, Italian festivals etc. It's all about being proud of one's heritage and is harming no one. So why all this concern when blacks recognize their ancestry? Why the double standard?

[brmdp3123]

39. This isn't about celebrating holidays.

It's about applying a label in everyday conversation, which I believe is unnecessary.

[Tomee450]

42. Oh please.

When people celebrate holidays they are honoring their ancestry. They are proud of it. There was never any problem with the hyphenated American until blacks adopted the practice. Now all of a sudden we are all Americans. It's nobody's business what blacks call themselves. This outrage at the term AFrican American is just another example of the need to control.

[fishwax]

95. It isn't hard to keep up with the terminology

I think the "frustration" bit is a bullshit argument. I'm not saying that every octogenarian who innocently reverts to saying "colored people" is racist, but it's not like the terms change with the seasons. It isn't hard to keep up.

[thinkingwoman]

104. I like the no labels part

Maybe someday that will be the norm.

My daughter's generation (she's 17) seems to shun labels, so maybe that day will come in my lifetime. That would be nice.

As for Rooney, however, the OP seems to suggest that he was well aware of the African American label. He was choosing to impose his opinion of what a minority should be called onto that minority. Being that he is a white man, I don't think he should have much say in the matter.

That does NOT mean he doesn't have free speech. It just means others are free to judge his speech for what it is -- bigotry.

[ultraist]

182. Well then I guess the Congressional Black Caucus should disban

And refrain from using that term. No need for them. They are just being divisive. Same goes for the NAACP.


:eyes:

[Tomee450]

34. I agree completely.

Must be a need to control.

[Catherine Vincent]

9. Is Andy Rooney black?

If he isn't, then his opinion doesn't matter.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

28. Shame on you

Those sorts of blanket statements are the things libs fight against every day. Wrong or not, Rooney is entitled to his opinion, and his fucking skin color HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

If he was arguing for the use of a racial epithet, I could understand him being called a racist. He's arguing for the use of an outdated word that was in the national lexicon (without any negative connotations) for decades.

I don't agree with Rooney about the word negro, but I do agree that minority-American is an obtuse method of labeling people. I'm an American, not an English-American or Scandinavian-American or Scottish-American. Actually, with my ancestry, you could call me an English-Scandinavian-Scottish-German-Ute-American. It's a mouthful, but if we're all going to be exactly politically correct, I'd prefer that ya'll refer to me that way from now on - no more caucasian for me.

[Tomee450]

40. So why should African Americans

believe as you do? If we want to call ourselves African American, why should that be of any concern to members of another group. Sure Rooney can have an opinion but he can also be wrong. Every group has a right to decide for itself what it wishes to be called and decent, respectful people will respect the wishes of that group. I think it is highly insulting to call someone a Negro when it is clear that members of that group have rejected that term. Why is it difficult to just respect people? I've been around white people all my life and I know the heritage of every single white person I've met. HOw? They told me. They said they were Irish, Polish, Italian etc and they celebrated those countries holidays and festivals. Why the double standard for black people? Why is it wrong for us to recognize our heritage? It's nothing but a need to control. Reminds me of slavery and Jim crow. It's sickening. People should just not concern themselves with what African Americans call themselves.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

48. Point out where I said that you should believe as I do?

I never said that African Americans didn't have the right to call themselves whatever they choose. If you construed my post that way, I apologize.

Every group has the right to label themselves how they see fit, but to say that Rooney's opinion doesn't matter because of the color of his skin is wrong, and racist. I was very careful to say that I disagree with Rooney's views, but wanted to point out the hypocrisy in cat_girl's post.

As for the minority-American labels, I still believe that they're a useless way to label people. They are exclusionary, rather than inclusive. We are all Americans regardless of skin color, race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I believe that strongly. I use African American, because that's the nomenclature preferred by African Americans. I'm sensitive to that, but that doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion about it.

I'd like you also to point out where I said that it was wrong for any ethnic group to to celebrate their heritage and that we shouldn't respect other people's heritage and ethnicity. Please don't put words into my mouth when you don't know me from Adam. I can understand if you're frustrated with the racism inherent in modern American society; I'm frustrated too. Just remember that I'm on your side, but the "slavery and Jim Crow" comments are offensive to many white Americans who do fight against the injustices and for real equality for all.

[noiretextatique]

51. we are NOT all americans...the katrina exercise proved that

really, it did. it really showed the ugly truth about america: black people are *really* not considered citizens, esepcially if they are poor.
i never knew i was american, really never, ever felt that sense of belonging to this country, until i went to college in italy.
i still don't feel like an american in this country, though my brother, uncles, father, and grandfathers fought in her wars.
perhaps the hyhenated name is a recognition of the fact that we are only considered americans during the olympics.

[Tomee450]

55. Thank you!

My sentiments exactly. I remember in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 hearing people say "We are all Americans." I knew that wouldn't last. When the fear subsided, back to the same old racism with Katrina a good example.

[noiretextatique]

57. you're welcome

what's with the need to believe "we" are all the same, when it's more than clear that "we" aren't? i could go on...but i might get banned.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

86. I didn't say "we" all need to be the same

Where in any of my posts did I say that "we" should all be the same? Please, point it out. I did say that we are all Americans, and that I believe in fighting for equality for all Americans. Do you have a problem with that?

If you don't want a "we", fine. That says more about you than it does about the good white people you so easily disparage.

[noiretextatique]

91. i haven't "disparged" any white person, good or otherwise

so please stop PROJECTING. nor was my comment to, or directed at you.
only a fool would pretend that the katrina response, and the propaganda to justify it, had nothing to do with the race of the victims. that there are some not so good white americans who support bush, inc response and swallow the propaganda whole is simply the ugly truth. i am no way "disparaging" YOU or anyone else by stating that.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

58. Just because a Republican controlled government

doesn't care much about African Americans doesn't mean that there aren't many white people out there who do care. It's a struggle that may take many more generations to win. Giving up and saying, in essence, that white America doesn't give a shit about minorities is defeatist and pessimistic.

"perhaps the hyhenated name is a recognition of the fact that we are only considered americans during the olympics."

That's a blanket statement that smacks of it's own brand of racism. It makes insinuations about white people based on stereotypes that don't hold up to real scrutiny, and is especially bad on a progressive web site full of people who are the exact opposite of the stereotype.

[noiretextatique]

62. that is my statement about ME

and my feelings after living in this country for 46 years. if you don't like it...that's too bad. perhaps you should consider making your own statement about YOU. and 51% of white americans voted for this government (albeit, according to diebolded statistics).

[EvolveOrConvolve]

72. Actually, I think more than 51% voted for dickhead

But that wasn't my point. My point was that there are many many white people out there who consider you an American, a true American, and will fight for your right to be treated equally.

I'm confused about your asking me to make a statement about myself. This isn't about me, and it never will be. I think my posts say a lot about me, and what I think about the issue.

Let me ask you: Does Andy Rooney's opinion not count because of the color of his skin?

[noiretextatique]

75. personally, i could care less about what andy rooney thinks

about anything...he's not alone on my long list of people's whose opinions don't matter at all to me.
nor does it matter that other people may or may not consider me a true american. my comment was about my belief that black people aren't really considered citizens, as evidenced by the katrina exericse, and the support for it, as evidenced by the numbers of people who voted for this government. and of course my own experiences, and that of many others throughout the history of this country. you took offense to my statement, and made and accusation about me not taking into account the good white folks in this country...admittedly, i didn't do that...and i know they do exist.
and still...i feel no need to amend my feelings or my statement.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

77. You didn't answer my question

Does Rooney's opinion mean nothing because of his skin color?

[noiretextatique]

80. i think he is speaking from his experience

and i will assume he doesn't have the experience with the word negro that a black person his age does. given that, his opinion may not come across as informed to that person or they make take in a way he didn't mean it to be taken. i didn't listen to his comment, and i probably won't because i don't really care that much about it.
my dad, who recently passed, had a nurse greet him thusly: "good morning, sunshine." my dad took offense, because he grew up in texas in the 30's and 40's when "sunshine" was used as a disparging term against black people...it still had THAT meaning for him. this woman had no idea about that meaning, and was just being friendly. and if my dad hadn't been so sick and grouchy, i doubt that old meaning would have surfaced.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

83. I agree that he was speaking from his own experience

And I also agree also that his position was wrong. Even old-fart curmudgeons like Rooney need to stay with the times. I don't agree with Rooney's take on the issue, my argument was with the poster who said that Rooney's opinion didn't count because of the color of his skin.

[noiretextatique]

85. well...that's stupid

and i would never suggest such a thing. people can only speak from their experience...something i always keep in mind when there is big stink about some racist or not comment. and really...i don't think the word negro is as loaded as some other words.

[LostinVA]

156. Thank you -- I hate being labeled a racist when I'm not

And, I';m gay and female and have been faced with enough discrimination to get it. I was fired from a job for being gay, in 1993. I am NOT a bigot in any way, shape, or form, and it infuriates me to have me included in a blanket statement. Tell you what, when I become a rich, straight white man, you can call me that again and see if it's true. Until then -- don't.

[noiretextatique]

167. who labelled you a racist?

and who included YOU in a blanket statement? i am gay too...our local gay bar plays the worst music on earth so it doesn't get "too dark" for the regulars.

[fishwax]

99. He's entitled to his opinion, but his opinion just doesn't matter

The post you were responding to didn't say Andy Rooney wasn't entitled to his opinion. You came up with those words yourself.

Your analogy to being a "English-Scandinavian-Scottish-German-Ute-American" is a petty and silly argument. Other demographic groups will be referred to as something, whether its black, chicano, native american, or outmoded and racist terms. Why anyone would take issue with a group's choice of terms to use is beyond me.

[LostinVA]

155. I heard the clip -- Rooney wasn't being racist

I know quite a few elderly people, both black and white, who consider the Terms "black" and "Negro" to be the correct terms to use. To them, it is proper, respectful, and polite. IMO, that's what Andy Rooney meant -- that some people demonized the term "Negro," when the term wasn't meant as an insult. Of course a group has a right to decide how to identify themselves, but I think Rooney meant that Negro is a good word, a strong word, and it's a shame that a word that meant respect is now considered derogatory for some reason (ie NAACP, UNF)

[ultraist]

186. Shame on Andy Rooney

He is a racist fuck. This is NOT the first time he's said some stupid shit like this.

He should STFU and stop spreading hate.

I don't buy this apologist argument for a minute. "Oh, it's too hard to keep up with the terminology," or "We are all Americans, it's divisive." BS. The man is well educated and has access to more info than most people.

He is a divider and encouraging people to DISRESPECT diversity which is an insideous way to say, ONLY the WHITE homogenius culture should be acknowledged and respected. Don't empower people of color or diverse ethnic groups. We must not legitimize them in any way. White code.

[Lethe]

10. is Andy Rooney still alive?

but, i think he did have a point. African-american is a rather meaningless term, because charlize theron could be considered an african american. Just like any russian could be considered an asian-american.

[funflower]

23. Most African-Americans are at least partially of Bantu ethnicity, if you

want to get really precise. "Negro" is not an ethnic group, just an old-fashioned descriptor focused solely on skin tone.

[sandnsea]

11. I would imagine

that when you're sitting on the top of a roof ready to drown, you don't particularly care whether they're coming to rescue blacks, negroes or African-Americans. You just want them to respond the same way they would for whites. This kind of semantic silliness really seems to get in the way of discussing the systemic racial problems.

[mzteris]

12. Negro WAS a perfectly good word

unfortunately, it's "connotation" was forever destroyed by it's pejorative derivation - commonly referred to know as the "N" word.

(Which probably came from the southerner's accent that changed the pronounciation to a -gra ending which is NOT the same thing as the "N" word.)

[Tomee450]

41. It may be a perfectly good

word to you but it was a word foisted upon blacks by another community that controlled them. How would you feel if your group was named by a people who bought and sold your ancestors. Blacks have rejected the word Negro and I can't see why others are having a problem with that.

[mzteris]

49. If Blacks have "rejected" the word

Negro, then how do you account for the UNNCF?

And as I said - it WAS a prefectly good word, but the connotation took on a negative characteristic.

FWIW - I don't believe that "negro" was foisted upon blacks, either. It's been around a VERY long time. Check it's derivation.


ETYMOLOGY: Spanish and Portuguese negro, black, Black person, from Latin niger, nigr-, black. See nekw-t- in Appendix I.

Appendix I: Indo-European Roots

ENTRY: nekw-t-
DEFINITION: Night. Probably from a verbal root *negw-, to be dark, be night. O-grade form *nokw-t-. 1a. night; fortnight, from Old English niht, neaht, night; b. Kristallnacht, from Old High German naht, night. Both a and b from Germanic *naht-. 2. nocti-, nocturn, nocturnal, equinox, from Latin nox (stem noct-), night. 3. noctuid, noctule, from Latin noctua, night owl. 4. nyctalopia, nyctitropism, from Greek nux (stem nukt-), night. 5. Suffixed plain verbal root *negw-ro-. negro, niello, nigella, nigrescence, nigrosine; denigrate, streptonigrin, from Latin niger, black. (Pokorny nek-(t-) 762.)

http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE341.html

****

Hispanics commonly use the word "moreno" (meaning brown or "negro" (pronounced nay-gro - meaning black) as a referent for AA's. Is that offensive?


I use the term AA interchangeably with Black, though I'm not that entirely happy with either of them. This is an important issue to me as my son is black (or as he says, "dark brown". :) )

[Tomee450]

69. I believe The United Negro

College Fund was established during the Jim Crow era. However, you will find very few black people who refer to themselves as Negroes, not even among the black elderly who grew up during Jim Crow. I think it is disrespectful to refer to a people by a term that has been rejected by them. Stanley Crouch may use the term but I know of no other black writer who uses the word Negro when referring to black people.

[mzteris]

78. Like I said, the word has been

tainted by usage.

When I was growing up, it was PROPER and RESPECTFUL to use the term Negro. Most of the Negros I knew used it to refer to themselves, so maybe I have a different POV.

[noiretextatique]

93. that was before the black power and consciousness movements

which i am sure you are aware of. i think of it, the naming, as an evolution in consciousness. it's much the same with the women's and gay rights movement...the evolution of language, that is.

[mzteris]

107. But Why

oh never mind......... I just don't get it. Like I said earlier, if I tagged all my landoforigins (that I even KNOW about!) on to my American moniker we'd be here all day. :rofl:

[noiretextatique]

127. and that's your absolute right...self-defintion

is your right...as it is for anyone else. so what if it would take all day.

[Tomee450]

71. duplicate deleted

[Caution]

13. NAACP = National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

it does not have the word negro in it. Negro is basically no different than caucasion in its meaning but the implied meaning is negative and Mr Rooney should have take the negative connotations into consideration. I doubt this is really going to upset all that many people.

[itzamirakul]

15. As a writer, I use the word "Negro" in reference to African Americans in

the period prior to the Civil Rights Movement. I also use the word "Colored" when in reference to people in this same time period, up through about 1964.

From the period of the Civil Rights Movement until current times, I use "black" or "African American."

Since it is Andy Rooney,at the root of this discussion, I think you have to consider the source. He called one of the Asian newscasters a "Yellow bitch" some years ago, and had to make some kind of public apology, so I guess we should be glad that this time he did not say that "nigrah" or "n....r" is still a good word.

Also, the black newspaper columnist, Stanley Crouch has always refused to use the word "black" in reference to people and has continued to use ONLY the word "Negro."

So, I guess people can use what they choose and hope that the listeners don't want to fight about it.

[goclark]

106. Stanley can call himself whatever he wants to

He is saying that HE WANTS to define Stanley.

I say,let him!

[TrueAmerican]

16. History

Negro
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
Negro means "black" in both Spanish and Portuguese languages, being derived from the Latin word niger of the same meaning.

The term "negro", literally "black," was used by the Spanish and Portuguese to refer to black Africans and people with that heritage. From the 18th century to the mid-20th century, "negro" (later capitalized) was considered the correct and proper term for African Americans. It fell out of favor by the 1970s in the United States. In current English language usage, "Negro" generally is considered acceptable in a historical context or in the name of older organizations, as in the United Negro College Fund, and is used more commonly by those born before the post World War II baby boom.

Lyndon B. Johnson was the last American president to publicly refer to the African American population as Negroes (to which, for much of his life, he gave the Texas pronunciation nigras, widely considered an insult by African Americans). Before he left office, he had begun to employ the word blacks, too.

The related word Negroid was used by 19th and 20th century anthropologists (ending variously in the mid-to-late 20th century) to refer to a race of people from Africa.

The word has had a similar history in languages such as Italian. Today in Italy, using the term "negro" to refer to a black person would be considered a racist insult, suggestive of fascist opinions. However, in Portuguese, the socially accepted term nowadays is "negro" (literally, "black"), while "preto" (meaning, in this context, "black-skinned") usually is seen as a possible insult because of societal color bias. But, today some Portuguese people and Portuguese speaking Africans prefer the term preto in opposition of branco (white), than negro (that also can mean "dirty").

In French, nègre was the word generally used in the 19th century and earlier times to describe blacks persons of African origin. However, it now has heavy colonial undertones, and the word noir (literally, "black") is always used instead, except occasionally when specifically discussing slavery or colonialism, or when nègre is used as slang for ghost writer.

In Argentina and Cuba, negro (negra for females) is a word commonly usually used to refer to friends or people in general, and does not have a racist connotation. For example, one may say to a friend, "Oye, negrito. ¿Como estás?" Literally, that translates as, "Hey, black man, how are you doin'?" Here, "negro" is used in its diminutive form "negrito", as a term of endearment meaning "pal", or "buddy" or "friend." "Negrito" has come to be used to refer to a person of any ethnicity or color, and also can have a sentimental or romantic connotation similar to "sweetheart," or "dear" in English. (In the Philippines, Negrito was used for a local dark-skinned short person, living in the Negros islands among other places) In other Spanish-speaking South American countries, the word negro can also be employed in a roughly equivalent form, though it is not usually considered to be as widespread as in Argentina or Cuba (except perhaps in a limited regional and/or social context). In Cuba, moreno is used for a black person. In other parts of the Spanish-speaking world, like the Philippines, moreno means just "tanned" or brunette.

In the Post-Soviet states the word negr (derived from negro) commonly refers to somebody with the African ethnic roots. Because the majority of the population has seen such people only on television or in films, the word negr does not have any negative aftertaste. The direct translation of "black" (chjornyj) refers nowadays to people from the southern regions of the former Soviet Union (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia etc.) and is considered a racist insult. The word cvetnoj ("coloured") is also socially unacceptable in most layers of society.

Controversy around the word "Negro" has spread to many languages, to a greater or lesser extent, because many have come to perceive the usage of any word similar to "Negro" with respect to black people in any language as a possible form of insult. Internationally, there is no definite consensus. While some argue that prevailing attitudes in the United States of America (and elsewhere) should not always be taken into account when deciding what words people should use in other languages, others try to avoid using "Negro" or its variants, as they have come to consider that it could be possibly offensive. Implementing this decision is not always easy, because in some languages the word for "black" is not considered to be a better alternative at all (in Russian chornyi is a name for minorities like Chechens, in Estonian must also means "dirty", etc.) Other options are "dark skinned" or "African". However, many languages presently do not have any widely accepted alternatives for an alternative to "Negro" that is more neutral or positive in its associations. Some Spanish-speaking people have adopted the term "negrito" or even "azulito" (the diminutive of "azul", the color blue) instead of "negro" to avoid the insulting connotation of the word in English, especially around English-speaking people who do not know Spanish.

A specifically female form of the word—negress—was sometimes used; but, like another gender-specific word "Jewess", it has all but completely fallen from use. Both are considered racist and sexist.

As with other racial, ethnic, and sexual words that are seen as pejoratives, some individuals have tried "reclaiming" the word. An example of this is artist Kara Walker. <1> In the US, some African-Americans may use the term playfully among themselves (as in "You can't please Negroes"), especially throughout the American South and other areas with a higher percentage of African-Americans. Such usage is similar to that of the word nigga, although it is generally not considered profanity, and is less offensive

[Neocondriac]

17. It's a reach to call him racist....

The word negro is fine , it's just not used in this country.

[EFerrari]

32. Beg to disagree.

The word is a white culture imposed slur.

And that's what you do when you want to enslave a people: you NAME THEM.

:puke:

[libertynliberalism]

20. I feel

I feel fine. Negro does mean black, it's the same thing. Some people can say negro like Andy Rooney and be clean and some can say black and still be bitterly racist. It depends on the person who's saying it imo.

On the other hand, thinking a bit more about it, I think the word negro was used during time of slavery (I remember seeing 19th century flyers saying 'selling 20 negros in Virginia in my history text), and so it its a carryover from that era and using it today could create that imagery of slavery, which is why I can see it being inappropriate.

So the word itself is fine, but it has ties to the era of slavery, and therefore perhaps it should not to be used in the modern era, regardless of the underlying intention of the speaker.

[LeftNYC]

22. Howard Stern used to claim...

that Imus used to run around the halls of NBC using the N word. Robin backed him up on this and said he called her that a few times. Imus is a jerk. He probably agrees with Rooney.

[NWHarkness]

26. He could have said a lot worse than that on the Imus show

and he'd still not be the biggest racist in the room.

[EFerrari]

31. I couldn't either. It made me ill.

When my stomach settles, I guess I'll email both about it.

:wtf:

[daveskilt]

44. In some census records Negro refers to black or irish

both were counted as 3/5th of a person for the purpose of census reporting.

[Brewman_Jax]

129. Where'd you read that?

I couldn't find any references in a google search.

[daveskilt]

135. I worked for a genealogy research company

any pre 1880 census has this classification for Irish as Negro.

[Brewman_Jax]

162. That's not correct

the US federal census has columns for countries of origin, including Ireland. The term "negro" was not used, "colored" was. There's no definition of Irish in the census, but I doubt they were considered "colored." The 3/5 rule (ended with the 13th Amendment, 1865) did not include individuals with a term of service (i.e. indentured servants).

What you read may have been a local or unofficial census.

[QC]

54. Stanley Crouch uses the word "Negro." n/t

[noiretextatique]

130. stanley crouch is somewhat of a conservative

and defintely an iconoclast.

[0007]

63. I don't see! Andy's just an old timer. Most old folks will refer to

black as colored. It just all depends where and how one was raised. But it sure doesn't make Andy a racist in my opinion.

[Moochy]

64. Only in Spanish

As in "El Corazón negro y artificial del Cheney"

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

68. That's what I was about to post. Negro is not even a word in the

English language. People should call themselves whatever the fuck they want.

[guajira]

74. I Heard Imus This Morning

And never had a thought that Rooney was being racist.

But then, I'm not a racist person, so it's not the first thing that pops into my mind!

Negro/a is a Spanish word for black - get over it!

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

142. I heard it as well and the kick off to the whole conversation is important

Imus was talking about Congressman Harold Ford Jr of Tennessee and saying a bunch of great stuff about him which he capped off by saying "He's African -American." I thought Rooney actually started his comments by chastizing Imus for thinking any racial identifier of ANY kind was necessary and then it got into the discussion of specific terminology. Rooney's larger point (to me anyway) is that we will finally only be free of our prejudices the day we stop identifying people by their race.

I also thought Imus GOT his point and was slightly abashed of his own comments (why can't Harold Ford Jr. just be a great Congressman? If he were white, would Imus have said "he's an Anglo-American"? I think not. This is how people who think they are very liberal and free of prejudice reveal themselves unconsciously.)

I thought Rooney started rambling about terminology because he realized he had embarassed Imus and was trying to redirect the conversation from the revelation that Imus harbored secret prejudices. I in no way got racism out of Rooney's comments - quite the opposite.

[Oeditpus Rex]

87. Quoth Edith Bunker

in the first episode of "All in the Family" on Archie's use of the term "coloreds":

"It's a lot better than when he called them 'coons.'"

[kskiska]

100. I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger should change his name

It means "black ni**er."

[goclark]

105. Please

[LostinVA]

157. It means black plowman.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

110. I was four years old the first time I ever saw a person of color.

I was fascinated by his beautiful chocolate colored skin, and said so out loud. I was hushed by the adults around me who didn't want me to embarrass them or the dark man. I thought it was marvelous to have skin the color of my beloved chocolate and didn't understand why I was being hushed up.

In grade school, the children with dark skin called themselves "colored people" and so that is what I called them. This was the "appropriate" term in those days, and we all respected that. Back then, the term "black people" would have been viewed as an insult, probably because it was too close to the term "blackies" which was used by racists as an ugly term. It took a long time for me to use this term, and only when people of color were routinely referring to themselves as "blacks".

When I was in college "African American" became the accepted term. That was during the time when it was no longer a stigma to be of African descent, but rather a point of pride. I think this was largely inspired by the Roots book and television series, which touched the entire country, both black and white. I still find this term to be the most comfortable to my mind when speaking of my darker skinned friends.

Just some personal life observations from the perspective of a first generation Latvian American.

[doc03]

113. For Christ's sakes I didn't know that was a racist word

In my lifetime I have heard blacks called colored, Negros, blacks African Americans and I have heard the other "N" word used more by blacks than whites. Every few days I read where someone says something that most people don't recognize as racist and some one comes out of the woodwork and goes nuts about it. I think this political correctness thing is just ridiculous. Isn't Negro the polite name of a race just as Caucasian is?

[Tomee450]

119. Oh for crying out loud.

This has nothing to do with political correctness but about being respectful. If a person is named Charlie, do you think it would be appropriate to call him Cleo? Black people have rejected the word Negro. Knowing that, why use the term? If someone called me a Negro, I would not like it one bit.

[doc03]

122. What do you think of Chris Rock or others that use

the other "N" constantly? Doesn't that show disrespect for your race?

[noiretextatique]

128. yes, it does

but that's for him to figure out. i am not a fan of his, btw.

[doc03]

123. In 1964 Congressman Wayne L. Hayes

from Ohio spoke at my high school and told what he considered a joke about seeing a Swift Boat in Vietnam pulling a "n" word on skies and he remarked about how well they get along with the "N's" and the Captain said we're just trolling for alligators. This came from a US Congressman, a Democrat, talking to a high school that had about 800 students and probably less than 10 were black. This country has come a long way since those days. He brought money to our district but was an asshole for sure.

[fujiyama]

124. Seems more like laziness

and an inability to evolve linguistically rather than racism.

I think people should have the right to refer to their race in whatever way they wish. Most of my black friends considers themselves black.

Negro is just an outdated word. It's not so much a word of racism. It's usage was not really meant derogatorially, even historically. On the other hand, the word that spawned from it clearly was meant as a racial insult. Negro was prefectly acceptable as a term used in countless works of literature with little or no racism implied on the part of the author.

If someone prefers to be considered African American, I'll refer to their race as such though. I don't see why anyone else should be bothered. Ultimately, it's all about context. Rooney seems more like a stubborn blowhard than a racist. I guess it's like the term 'Oriental'. Many useed this word for years, until it was realized that Oriental referred more to objects than to geography. A similar case goes with 'Latino', as opposed to 'Hispanic'.

I call my friends by their names and those I don't know, I refer to them as 'sir' or 'ma'am'. Their race is irrelevant. I like to respect people.

[bluedawg12]

125. Andy rooney has taken the crotchety man of the 20th century too far

He disdains the term black american in favor of the nostalgic old word, redolent with images of segregation and lynching and prefers that quaint "negro" well, NeWS flash for Andy, it's not up to a fat, old, octogenarian old crotch like him to tell a people rising up from an era of hate and bigotry that they have not right to be called black americans. STPH. shut the pie hole.

[LostinVA]

158. Listen to the whole segment -- he was saying the opposite of what

You're accusing him of. He stated that, basically, full equality can't happen in this country until we can get past identifying by qualifiers (race, etc.). Rooney is a curmudgeon, but he wasn't being a racist on Imus.

[noiretextatique]

169. that's so incredibly naive

full equality in this country will never happen until people are treated equally...period. it doesn't matter what people are called or how they are indentified, what matters is that we respect our differences and recognize them as natural and relatively unimportant, in the scheme of things. i get what rooney was saying, and i don't think he was being racist of disrespectful, but i do think he was being naive. labels aren't the problems...it's what the labels mean in someone's consciousness that is the problem.

[ultraist]

187. Yes, Andy prefers the word negro for a reason

Granted he is not a linguist, but his profession is centered on language.

There is no excuse but racism for his stupid ass comments. And this is one of many that he's made that have to do with race and ethnicity. He has offended Asians, the Greek-American community, and Blacks.

[yurbud]

137. all photos of Imus are disturbing. Has anyone told him he's been dead

for about 50 years?

[claudiasp]

152. Andy Rooney's naive, racist remarks on "Imus In The Morning""

i be live he is

[LostinVA]

159. Read posy #142 -- he was not being racist

[Cleita]

164. Back in Rooney's day African Americans preferred to be

called Negroes, which is Spanish for black. The Civil Rights movement of the sixties changed all that. I think Andy is starting to live in the past.