people saw loose barge hit levee and break it

[donsu]

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

-snip-

Locals from Lakeview subdivision of New Orleans report that after Katrina passed a loose barge struck levee causing breach that flooded city.

WMR has just been informed by evacuees in Baton Rouge from Lakeview, a well-to-do New Orleans neighborhood, that the flooding of the city was caused by a loose barge striking the levee on the 17th Street Canal thus weakening the retaining wall. The breach was not caused by rising flood waters as reported by FEMA and other agencies. Lakeview is some 1.5 miles down Veterans Boulevard from the 17th St. Canal breach.

Distraught evacuees want to know why the Coast Guard or the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers did not secure the barge. The evacuees who witnessed the barge striking the levee also want to know why the major media is not covering this story. It is not known what company owns the barge but if it is a major campaign contributor to the GOP, the answer is self-evident.
-snip-
----------------------------

[geomon666]

1. sigh n/t

[back2basics909]

2. Satellite photos..

Lets find it.

[KharmaTrain]

6. Google Has Pre & Post "Corinna" Pictures

I wish I could do the screen cap...but you can see three major breeches in the Canals.

The first is the famous 17th street break near the Lake Ponchetrain Causeway that caused the massive flooding of the 9th District.

The other two are on the ship canal between the lake and the river. You can see two clear breeches. I am led to believe the photos were taken within 24-48 hours after the hurricane and there's no barge or any other large ship in the vacinity of those breeches.

Again, look for yourself.

[jayfish]

7. Sat Photo Of Breach With Barge In Residential Area Here.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.971619,-90.022842&spn=0.006163,0.007838&t=e&hl=en

I have also seen that barge several times in video footage of the area.
Seems like a plausible scenario to me.



Jay

[ohio_liberal]

9. I don't think so

The floodwall was thick concrete. I've seen loose barges slam into the Ft Henry Bridge in Wheeling WV that didn't do major structural damage. I think the barge was sucked by the current into the residential area after the levee was breached.

[Debau2005]

12. Pardon me for being stupid

Where in the picture is the barge?

[jayfish]

14. It's The Reddish Rectangular Object...

just SE of the break.

Jay

[Debau2005]

15. Thanks

[back2basics909]

19. EVER seen a barge with square back AND front?

Does not seem very streamlined to me. That cannot be a barge.

[ohio_liberal]

20. sure it is

A steel barge is rectangular. The front curves from the bottom up and out a bit. But it's still rectangular.



edited to add a pic

[back2basics909]

23. So how?

Did it go uphill against the flow of water from the river?

[libertypirate]

26. tides, low tide high tide, the water in the lake is down two feet /nt

[ohio_liberal]

27. Show me proof that it went against the currents

[back2basics909]

32. Look at the before shot.

... there are banks protecting the houses, from the levies. The "barge" must have come from the river (it doesn't look like the other barges in the "Hybrid" image on google to me, but anyway).

So we have a bank, then the levees and then the houses to the right. The watre at high tide is coming form the lake (top RIGHT hand side) and flowing in to the river.

I need to illustrate with images, can anybody hosts a small image if i knock something up?

I could well be wrong here, but lets see if together we can work this out.

[ohio_liberal]

33. Here's the problem

You don't know where or when the barge broke loose. The unusual currents from the breached levee are more than capable of sucking a barge into the breach.

[back2basics909]

34. Or...

... i guess the storm surge it's self.. that would have lifted it up presumably.

[ohio_liberal]

36. Could be, could be

There are a lot of variables.

[back2basics909]

37. Hold on i think we are missing something...

That levee is not the one that flooded the houses directly to the right of it. The levee we are looking at is protection from the river. The sea is to the East isn't it?

Breaking of that Levee would allow the water to drain in to the river, as we can see in the after shot. You can see the direction of the water.

Which would be a good think, no?

[mccoyn]

39. The canal goes to both.

Go North and you will see the canal is open to the lake. Go South and through the locks and you will see the canal can go to the river.

[tuckessee]

67. There's a dude stranded on the barge.

Waving a makeshift white flag.

Maybe he knows when and where the barge broke loose.

[Fescue4u]

42. Maybe somebody drove it there on a pickup truck?

Or parachuted it in?

Or maybe in somebodys backpack.

Come on.

There's really only one way to get the barge where it is, it floated there (driven by 145 mph winds)

[back2basics909]

21. Seems fishy..

Go look at the google photo.

Take a good look.

1) Never seen a barge with a square back AND front as the object clearly has.
2) Now look even closer. The "barge" is currently stuck against the side of a house. The lang it is on ih higher than then river. You can clearly see the water running down in to the river. So this barge must have gone against the flow of water to get where it is now. How?
3) It look far more like a truck that the other barges on the river.

[ohio_liberal]

25. I see them every single day n/t

[mccoyn]

30. Switch to the sat view and look north.

There is an open bay-like area that has some barges parked in it. They are all square ended. A couple of them are red with yellow stripes at the front and back. Compare them to the supposed barge in the Katrina view. They are identical.

[ohio_liberal]

35. There are probably a bunch that look just like it

But thanks for looking up the "parking space". The barge in the residential area is proof of exactly nothing. We don't know what caused the breach. It could have been the enormous water pressure against the backside of the topped levee, and yes we know the levees were topped by the storm surge. These levees are not designed to withstand water pressure on the back side. It could be the barge, but IMO the water is the more likely culprit.

[mccoyn]

38. I agree. Its no proof.

But I think that that is a barge. I have no evidence of how it got there.

[Fescue4u]

44. Everytime I drive by the Ohio river

Barges ARENT streamlined.

In fact, a nickname for any big square bulky, non streamlined vehicle is a "barge"

[ohio_liberal]

48. Yep, you're absolutely right

I know there are some with pointed or rounded prows here and there but they sure don't use them here. I live right on the Ohio River and I see those barges toting scrap steel and coal every day.

[WoodrowFan]

66. yes, all the time

I used to college along the Ohio River. I saw barges all the time. That's a river barge. They are pushed by large tugs. Jesus.

[SidDithers]

45. Your picture isn't the 17th St. breach...

Here's the ~500 ft breach in the 17th St. canal, a bit west of the picture you linked to. Couldn't find a barge here either.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Orleans&ll=30.017215,-90.120957&spn=0.005736,0.010131&t=e&hl=en

Sid

[KharmaTrain]

65. That's Been Questioned...Look At The Pre-Katrina Image

I wish I had the post or thread from two nights ago...things move so fast around here...I probably won't get back to this one until late tonight.

That's in the canal from the Misssissippi to the Lake, not the 17th street canal. From reports, that breech flowed into the CBD...bad stuff but not related to the one that has devestated the 9th district further "north" from this canal.

That said...a couple of us saw that structure, and if you go to the pre-Catrina picture, you'll see what appears to be "the barge", is the roof-top ventilation system of a nearby building. The problem is that the "barge" is in the exact location as the building in the pre-Katrina image.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

40. noaa.gov has 7 thousands ariel photographs..here's a link.

Aerial Photography Flights Yield Thousands of Images
under the map click the link "Click here for imagery." and then click on quadrents to zoom to images

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/

[ET Awful]

3. Can you say BULLSHIT boys and girls?

I knew you could.

There are just as many people that say they heard explosions take out the 7th St. levee.

You know what I think took out that levee? TOO MUCH GODDAMN WATER AND NOT ENOUGH GODDAMN REINFORCEMENT THANKS TO BUSH BUDGET CUTS.

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. Actually FEMA did play a role in the levee break

Mayor Nagin knew there was trouble at the 17st Street levee and that that the water was about to breach.

Nagin called HS/FEMA and asked them to send helicopters to lift the sandbags that they already had to drop on the levee. HS/FEMA said they would send the helicopters. A few hours later they told Nagin that the helicopters had been diverted and would not be coming.

This may or may not have been enough to save the levee but now it is too late to know if it would have helped.

BTW: The 'explosions' that people heard may have just been the sound of the water when it finally bust through. I would imagine that would make a bit of noise.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Sorry..Madsen never seems to be able to prove a thing he says

[Old and In the Way]

5. Wayne has come out of hiding?

The more I see from this guy, the more I'm convinced he's doing disinfo.

[Squatch]

8. Weren't there 3 breeches? And, if so, was it the same "barge"?

:tinfoilhat:

[louis-t]

10. Hmmm, bushbots in that "well-to-do" neighborhood

are trying to help their hero.

[Inland]

11. I don't think the story makes sense.

There's no barge--if the barge had broken the levee, the current created would have kept in in place.

Moreover, the breach is well inland on the canal. Doubtless, a barge could conceivably drift down the canal, but how then does it do any about face and gain momentum to strike the levee?

[karlrschneider]

13. Madsen is a nutcase.

:eyes:

[ArkDem]

16. From what I've seen I believe you are in a position to know

this better than any of us!

[paula777]

17. Maybe it caused one of the breaks but there were 3 breaches

[johnaries]

18. I remember Madsen had PROOF that 2004 election was stolen!

Including photocopies of some of the bribe checks! That turned out to be fake. None of the rest of his proof turned out to be real, either. Just kept everyone looking in the wrong place.

I'm not sure if Madsen is just a National Enquirer style sensationalist or an actual Rove tool. But THIS "squishy Democrat" (as he calls DU'ers) will never believe anything he ever says, again!

Fool me once, and I won't get fooled again! (or something like that...)

EDIT: here's some interesting info on a recent Madsen "article":
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/6/0039/00721

[demo dutch]

24. Need more proof.. where's the barge?

[EVDebs]

28. Don't know what this is, maybe barge

at bottom left picture of page 2 this link. Is that a barge or a house ? "Yahoo! News: Television footage shows floodwaters flowing through..."


http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2971784-action-imgsearch-new_orleans_house_indianapolis-i-page-2

in any event, a loose barge could have taken out the floodwall just as easily as a terrorist or weakening by rising lakewaters.

Quit fighting amongst yourselves. IEM, Inc's outsourced contract with FEMA and the last-minute busing contracts FEMA let out AFTER the hurricane and flood event occurred are all 'smoking guns'

[Sgent]

29. The barge

was moved into place by the Army Corp to try and help repair the canal. They used it to drop sandbags from at night when the helicopters could no longer fly.

On a separate issue, there are almost no barges in Lake P., it is not a heavy shipping channel.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. Dupe post

oops

[DoYouEverWonder]

43. Got a link for that info

I have no seen or heard any confirmation of anyone using a barge to bring sandbags.

[Sgent]

49. You ask, and shall recieve...

Although this doesn't spell it out like they did on a WWLTV segment with some reporters, it still shows they had the barges ready and intended to use them.

NO Times-Picayune NewsBlog

[DoYouEverWonder]

55. That report is about barges

that were brought in after the levee breached to help fix it.

The barge that we are seeing was there before the storm and probably broke loose (boats do that) got sucked(?) through when the levee broke. Plus the red barge does not appear to have a load of sandbags.

[markus]

47. De-bullshitting this one

Just got an email back from a friend who lives in the neighbhorhood. A consruction barge was moored in the 17th St Canal supporting a crane prior to the storm. (Lives on Belle Air Drive; the damn levee is in his back yard).

Doesn't know if that's true, but it's certainly possible this caused or contributed. So could have the construction on the new hurricane proof Hammond Highway bridge.

[ohio_liberal]

52. Well now I'm thoroughly confused

The barge in all the images is a grain barge (notice the covers?). It's not a construction barge with a crane attached.

[DoYouEverWonder]

56. There are boats, barges, and freighters all over the place in NO

No surprise there would be a work barge near a levee, the levee surrounds the city. Everything in the water is near a levee.

[Emit]

46. This may or may not matter

But everytime I read these threads about the barge and the 17th street canal, I recall that shortly after the flood, one of the cable news shows (can't remember which, as I was switching around a lot) interviewed and older African American man who said that after Katrina blew over, he was out on his porch which looked over the levee at the 17th canal area, and he saw a large barge breaking into the levee. There was no implication on his part that this was purposeful, but I do recall his dismay. I just assumed it was one of those bizarre things that happen after a Cat 4-5 hurricane passes over. Things get dislodged and displaced. Anyway, he did, however, imply that the barge incident is what broke the levee.

Also, I have no idea where the Metterie (sp?) area is in NO, but the day the flood began, I was streamlining one of the radio stations, (NOLA.com) and they were interviewing a local Vet who had taken in animals during the evac. He said he had returned to his home, apparently sometime after the hurricane passed, went to sleep, awoke at about 5 the next am, and stepped out of bed into a pool of water. He kept repeating that the area he lived in, the Metterie area, would not have been flooded from the levee breaches that were being reported. He seemed really curious where the water had come from, and seemed pretty logical in his description.

I also saw an interview several days later (CNN, I think) with one of the workers who was responsible for draining the city---he had a large map out and was showing various areas they were draining and what the plan was. He specifically noted they would (or had?) purposefully breach levees in the process of controlling the drainage.

Weird. I don't know what to think, other than Madsen is an odd guy with questionable info. But, I think it would be important to examine what damage the hurricane did, what can be attributed to the surge and resulting flood, and what breeches were purposeful. That would answer a lot of these rumors and reports.

[expatriate]

51. According to Jefferson Parish President

Aaron Broussard, there WAS a breach in the levee on the Jefferson Parish side of the 17th Street Canal. He stated in an interview that he and local workers worked for two days to close it.

Metairie is on the west side of the 17th Street Canal. If there was a levee breach there, Metairie would have flooded. Metairie extends from the borders of Kenner, also in Jefferson Parish, to the border of New Orleans, which is on the other side of the 17th Street Canal.

[Emit]

62. Yes, I recall what Broussard said, in detail, about repairing that

17th St canal breach. And, when the guy I noted who had the maps discussing drainage, I thought for sure he was talking about some intential breach of the 17th St canal for drainage reasons. I thought it odd that Broussard's report of working to contain that was in opposition to the other guy. But, perhaps they were referring to two separate locations of the same canal.


A timeline of breaches would be helpful. This Vet talking about his area flooding may not have been referring to that breach, as he kept explaining to the news caster who was interviewing him that the breach causing water/flood was not on his side of the city and he couldn't understand where the water was coming from. Also, maybe he wasn't aware of the canal breach near his home, as things were pretty confusing, understandably.

Thanks for the details of the city, btw. I am only relying on memory and haven't looked at any maps or aerial views to examine this issue. I have family in NOLA, so I'm a little familiar with the city, but not in this detail.

Again, I'm only pointing out things I saw or heard reported by individuals. I, personally, would be interested in seeing a timeline of events, not because of any tin foil hat conspiracy, but because I find it interesting and important to know what occurred when, what sturctural failures contributed to the catastrophe, and what procedures were implemented that helped or hindered the problems.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

57. I saw the guy with...

...the maps talking about purposeful breaches also---seemed odd to me too. And exactly how do they go about intentionally breaching a levee? Ram it with a barge? Just askin'.

[expatriate]

50. Perhaps someone who spent more time

around Lake Ponchartrain and the Mississippi River can correct me if I'm wrong ...

Barges, particularly barges loaded with grain, do not navigate Lake Ponchartrain. There is no reason for them to, as there is no major watercourse for them to enter the lake by except for the Gulf Of Mexico, and then there are no facilities on the lake for the loading and unloading of barges. They also do not go up and down the 17th Street Canal.

They would be on the Mississippi River, which is a major shipping route. The levees on the Mississippi River didn't break, to the best of my knowledge. So I can't quite see how this barge would get into Lake Ponchartrain in the first place.

I think those pictures are faked, and this is one of those stories that really doesn't need to be kept going.

Now, if I'm wrong about the routes of barges, please, someone let me know, but barges being shoved through Lake Ponchartrain sounds like the fabrication of people who don't know much about New Orleans to me.

[back2basics909]

53. Some better images...

http://www.dfwforums.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=124&mode=&order=0&thold=0

[SidDithers]

63. Those images aren't the big breach at the 17th St. canal...

See my post #61 for the corresponding sat images.

Sid

[Sgent]

54. This is essentially correct

Also, keep in mind that the flood surge would have pushed water into the Mississippi through Lake P, thus the current would be flowing the wrong way for something to drift from the river to the Lake.

That being said, there are some construction barges and the like in Lake P. In most cases, these are coverted river barges, so from an arial may not look that different.

[markus]

58. They don't *typically* navigate there

Some do, however, use the Intracoaster Waterway for coast-wise traffic. A grain barge would have had to come loose from the Industrial Canal (part of the ICW) and drift several miles east (all of this is possible, I guess), then get lodged in the 17th St. Canal, which would have had a nice current running since it is a drainage canal (connected to the pumping stations that drain the city). Unless those pumps had stopped running.

A grain barge in the 17th St. Canal is very unlikely. A contruction barge was there. I haven't pulled the photos (I'm on dial up), but I know from looking at multiple sattelite/aerial of my mother's building, that you would have to have a very high resolution image to tell a grain barge from a work barge, and you'd have to know the difference.

[back2basics909]

59. Pull the images i just posted they are clear shots..

.. not satellite. Want to know if that looks like a grain barge.

Besides..

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/hurricanes/interactive/fullpage.nola.flood/katrina.html

Three breaks. Lets say the barge break caused the canal waters to raise, the wind pushed the barge agains the leveee and it broke and (as you see in the pictures) those houses were flooded. This is a TINY area and right when the pictures were taken, that levee breach is helping the water flow away.

It doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. The other levees seem to have caused far more flooding. But not knowing NO, i need help with this!

Need to formulate a responce as freepers are all over this.

[Emit]

64. How are the freepers all over this?

What is their concern, other than perhaps us 'talking' about it and some inferring it was intentional?

[still_one]

60. can any other source confirm this

wayne madsen is extremely unreliable

[SidDithers]

61. The picture with the barge is not at the 17th Street Canal...

This picture, from post#7, with the barge near the bottom, to the east of the breach, is not the 17th Steet canal. It is too far east.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.971619,-90.022842&spn=0.005739,0.010131&t=e&hl=en

Here is the 17th Street canal breach, the one that flooded the city. Notice the dry areas to the west of the canal, and the flooded areas to the east. This breach is just south of the mouth of the canal on Lake Ponchatrain, and is the 500ft breach that "filled the bowl". It is west of the breach and barge shown in the above picture.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Orleans&ll=30.017215,-90.120957&spn=0.005736,0.010131&t=e&hl=en

Sid