Kerry and the NRA

[La_Serpiente]

A lot of union members are gun owners. Do you think they would support Kerry or Bush? I mean...Gore kind of lost West Virginia and Tenessee because of the gun issue.

[blondeatlast]

1. I think with the threats posed by this administration to Labor rights,

guns will be more or less a non-issue.

There is no way that most Union members will support bushit.

[WillyBrandt]

2. I hate the NRA

What a horrid gang of crazies.

Why the hell is the Democratic party pimping itself to an organization that has GROVER NORQUIST on its board? What next, we're looking for the stamp of approval from the Heritage Foundation?

Why the fuck does everyone take the (spineless) DLC to be Satan incarnate, while salivating over the idea of a positive NRA rating? Good God: this is preposterous. Maybe our candidates should start looking for "A" ratings from the Concerned Women of America.

The NRA is not a nice collection of hunters and military history enthusiasts. Maybe it once was. No more: it is essentially a controlled wing of the Republican party.

Gore did NOT lose because the NRA didn't like him. You're conflating gun owners with NRA higher-ups. It happens that gun owners tend to be rural; moreover, white rural voters tend to be against anything that smacks of big-city-fancy-pants-bureaucracy or Establishment Liberalism.

Populism, charm, and cultural connection get these folks, not an stamp of approval from our enemies. That's why Gore's few populist speeches boosted his approval from these folks. That's why Clinton won them over, despite his support for Gun Control. That's why a candidate who can culturally connect--Clark or Edwards (Kerry, I don't know)--has the best chance of winning these voters and these states.

How can any REAL Democrat say anthing good about the NRA? Fucking horrible. They don't represent our values at all.

(edit: typo)

[Loyal]

3. I agree the the NRA is stupid,

and that it's dominated by Rethugs, but gun rights are an important issue. Max Baucus is for gun rights, and he's not affiliated with the NRA, for example.

[WillyBrandt]

5. That's fine

We need to split apart "gun rights" from the NRA. And we need to dispell the myth that any gun control means black UN helicopters circling 'round.

But selling ourselves to the NRA? What next: pimping a Norquist-controlled Americans-for-Tax-Reform grade?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

4. Dean is great on gun rights

He could possibly swing some states because of his pro-Second Amendment views that otherwise would go to Bush, because they won't automatically reject him as against guns.

[WillyBrandt]

6. Gun rights are a cultural indicator, not a litmus test

DU has got to be the least-politically savvy place on the Web. Unbelieveable how politically tone deaf DU observers are.

Very few gun owners really care if you have to wait a week to buy a Colt. The gun nuts we can never win, but they are only a small fraction of gun owners.

What is to be done? Two points:

(1) Fuck the NRA. We cannot make them more establishment, more mainstream. They are a wing of the GOP, and prizing an NRA rating is totally fucking despicable. It should be totally beneath any Democrat: it's like bragging about a good rating from Americans for Tax Reform (also run by Norquist).

(2) Realize that since few voters are gun nuts, what we have here are guns serving as a cultural indicator, not an ideological litmus test. Clinton and Gore had the same gun control policies, but Clinton won big in the south and Gore lost.

It was NOT the issues that made the difference: it was the connection that the candidate could establish with voters in these areas. Clinton was a charming Bubba whose father deserted him: rural voters were not put off by that guy as they were by rich George HW Bush. Likewise with Clinton and bureaucratic Bob Dole. Fancy-pants Gore lost to a (lying) aw-shucks "all-American" Texan.

If you can already connect with these folks, either culturally or by personality, you don't need to whore yourself to the hateful and fasicst NRA. There's no reason to put forth an NRA rating, which as a cultural indicator will just fall flat.

[DoNotRefill]

18. Hmmmm...

Assault weapons are a tiny minority of firearms sold in the US, and look what happened after the AW ban was passed.

Dems push for more gun control at their own peril...It's an issue that has a habit of biting us in the ass at the ballot box.

And Gore's nation-wide FOID card proposal was the kiss of death in a LOT of places.

BTW, the NRA supports pro-gun Democrats, too. They really don't give a rat's ass about party affiliation, they like people who are not against their one hot button issue. Why do you think Dean has an A rating? It's not because he's a Republican...

[KaraokeKarlton]

7. They will vote for Bush over Kerry

Or they won't vote for either. Too many liberals who favor gun control don't take this issue anywhere near as seriously as they should. Gun rights to gun owners are just as important as abortion rights are to pro-choicers. It's that simple. Just like pro choicers would never vote for someone wanting to pass further regulations on abortion, people who care about the 2nd Amendment would never vote for someone wanting to pass further regulations on guns.

[WillyBrandt]

8. Oh, yeah?

Then why did they vote for Clinton and not vote for Bush when their policies were so similar?

[Upfront]

9. They Liked Clinton

better than Bush and it is true, they were about the same on guns. Bush 11 was pro gun and Gore was perceived not to be. Dean has great position on guns that who ever wins would be smart to use. Kera you are correct in your statement.

[WillyBrandt]

10. They did not vote for Bush because of guns

They voted for Bush because their was a closer cultural connection--for whatever spurious, false reason--than with Gore.

The guns issue fit in only as a further cultural indicator.

I'd rather have a candidate who culturally connects--like Clark or Edwards--than one who does not connect, and has to be proud of his "A" rating from the fascist NRA.

NRA-Powered Howard. Sorry, that isn't my party.

[JI7]

15. right, it was culture/morals and not guns

although guns could be considered part of the culture by some. what really got them was bush's lies about how moral he is and how he is just some regular guy like them. bill clinton related to them because he grew up there, he knew how to connect to them while also pushing for gun control. this is the same reason clinton won them over despite their attacks on his private life which started before he even won the democratic primary.

[DoNotRefill]

17. Ummm...because Bush betrayed them in 1989....

Bush's Executive Order banning the import of certain weapons by executive fiat drove gun owners away from him. They didn't necessarily vote for Clinton, they mostly voted Reform party. It was a giant "FUCK YOU!" to Poppy.

[DonP]

13. That's about right

As a shooter myself, not an NRA or any other organization member, and a lifelong Democrat (Chicago, it's in the water here)a lot of us feel our rights have been cut away one by one.

Most of us feel many of the laws are just "feel good" laws and have no effect on the criminals.

When the DNC puts Sarah Brady on the podium to tell us how horrible we all are for owning guns, you are bound to alienate some people.

You may or may not agree with our point of view, but it's out there among a lot more Dems than anyone wants to believe.

The sad part is a lot of folks tell us to leave the party if we don't want to support "common sense" gun control. At least their version of what constitutes common sense. I have no intention of going anywhere. But I know a lot of folks that do get tired of being beaten up over this one issue.

Don P.

[ThomWV]

11. Guns

Let me shoot you a clue, it was the perception that Gore was anti gun that lost him West Virginia, and nothing else.

Thom/WV

[blm]

12. Gun rights won't be an issue at all this election.

There is way too much at stake for people to deal with the massaged issues.

[JI7]

14. bill clinton was very pro gun control and he won

including some southern states. and kerry had a record of supporting gun control so he should use it to his benefit and get those who support it to come out for him.

[bluestateguy]

16. Gun rights and civil liberties

I happen to include gun rights with all of the other civil liberties that we are concerned about. Why trust government with more gun laws if we don't trust government with the powers it has been given under the Patriot Act?