So they're pumping water back into Lake Ponchatrain. Question.

[Lindacooks]

Isn't that water filled with unbelievable amounts of bacteria, chemicals, poisons, and toxins? So what they're doing, basically, is destroying the lake. I understand that they have to pump it out of NO. But think of the environmental catastrophe this is going to be.

[trotsky]

1. It's the no-win situation.

Thanks to *'s inept "leadership."

[benburch]

3. Just so.

For want of a nail, the kingdom was lost.

Fucker ** just approved an ADDITIONAL $40 Billion in aid. The total cost for fixing the Levees was less than a billion.

But now there is no alternative to pumping it into a waterway.

[kedrys]

2. It has the hallmarks of a large-scale ecological disaster

Years were spent cleaning up the lake, to the point where manatees were making a comeback to one of their original habitats. Not any more, I guess.

[Jack from Charlotte]

65. Suggestion: Don't swim or eat any fish you catch in Lake Ponch....

anytine soon.

[tx_dem41]

68. For as long as I lived there, it was illegal to swim or fish in Lake..

Pontchartrain. Its been very polluted for years. One reason is that it is an "escape valve" for the Mississippi River when the river threatens to flood.

[mccoyn]

4. Have there been any water quality tests?

I think all the talk about disease and toxins was based on warnings. I'd like to know if any tests have been done.

Another 'pollution' is heat. The NO lake is very shallow and would be warmer than Pnchatrain.

[benburch]

6. Yes. Radio was just talking about that.

Full of life-threatening biological and chemical pollutants such that they are worried about the searchers.

[texanwitch]

5. Lake Ponchatrain will die, I am afraid of a big fish kill. Just think

of a large lake with dead floating fish, in this heat.

[xultar]

67. Are you kidding a lot of the fish were blown straight out of the lake from

the storm. There were huge piles of fish on I-10

[stray cat]

7. What else can they do?

[bklyncowgirl]

8. What are the choices.

They have to drain the city.

It's tragic, it should never have happened but what other choice do they have?

[Tesha]

17. Why?

> They have to drain the city.

Why? And who established the schedule?

Tesha

[mccoyn]

19. Refusal to consider that possibility.

Recovering NO will require billions, maybe over 100 billion dollars. It will require pumping contaiminated water into the lake. No one seems willing to consider whether it is worth it. The option isn't even on the table.

[SlightlyWorried]

22. It's a 'no brainer' FFS

I mean what kind of freaking value do you place on the lake? 1 Billion, 5 Billion, 50 Billion? What? Under any of those numbers you pump the city out. Unless you are going to say something non-sensical like 'you can't put a price on the lake' then you pump it.

[mccoyn]

29. You can't put a price on recovering NO?

Thats the option I see people failing to even consider. I hear talk of rebuilding the barrier islands, pumping out the city, increasing the levee system, tearing down and rebuilding every single building and no one relizes the very huge cost recovering NO will involve. All for a city that is still precariously below sea level between two large bodies of water and with a river running through it. All above the ground level.

Would you spend $1 million to build a house in a flood plain?

[tx_dem41]

66. You have to have a port at the mouth of a river that drains 2/3rds ..

of the land area of the country. And, geographically it has to be in New Orleans.

Plus, if you look at the aerial maps now available at noaa.gov there are large parts of the city that are relatively dry or very salvageable. Downtown and the port area are relatively untouched. The highways are fine. The bridges across the river are fine. So I'm not sure why you use the phrase "every single building".

As for your question, the answer will ultimately determine the fate of the city. Its a good question. My guess is that the Government will have to subsidize insurance there for quite awhile. But, the Government also realizes that New Orleans (read: major port city) HAS to exist there for the sake of the economy.

[mccoyn]

72. Maybe its a good idea then, to not allow development between sea level.

I seem to remember after the Mississippi R. floods several years ago the states bought back some of the buildings that were flooded and made it protected wetlands (as a buffer against future flooding). That might be a good idea for much of the below sea level areas of NO. If its allowed to become swampland, my understanding is that the ground will gradually rise due to sedimentation.

That means a lot of residental property will have to move out as the remaining areas will be in high demand for shipping related activities. I'm not sure what the suburb availability is to allow this.

[MsTryska]

26. there's a reason New Orleans exists.

and not jsut cuz it's a wonderful town full of wonderful people.


it's a major port and is pivotal to the US economy.


Major raw goods flow out, and major refined goods come in through that port.

the fact that it's gone for the moment is going to make a major crimp in the nations economy - mainly because the logisitcs of not having a way up and down the mississipi are going to make everything more expensive.

[mccoyn]

31. Then rebuild it upstream.

For the cost of recovering NO we could establish a new upstream port above sea level.

[Bridget Burke]

47. The "we" who will rebuild New Orleans....

Does not include You.

[mccoyn]

48. Heaven forbid someone question our actions before we do them.

I havn't said we should not rebuild New Orleans, just that this instant decision to do it without considering for even a moment the huge cost is a bit hasty.

And for what its worth, rebuilding it will include my tax dollars.

[GumboYaYa]

49. No you can't. Ocean going vessels can't access the river further North

than New Orleans. The north port of New Orleans is just about as far in the river as an ocean going vessel can reach. Without New Orleans virtually all of the agricultural products in America have no market.

New Orleans will be rebuilt. How is the big question?

[MsTryska]

58. Thanks for answering - i missed the response...

man i miss being able to go back and look at my posts!


How is the really interesting question to me.

I for one would like to see some more silt put out there, and more attention paid to natural barriers, if at all possible, and imo the Dutch have to be involved in this discussion.

working for an Urban Planning agency - i have to say the opportunity is rare to be able to design an exisiting city from scratch.

But i'm sure if real, independent, planners were able to provide input, you would have a remarkably different city from anything people have seen here.

[LeftyMom]

71. Very large ships can't make it to an upstream port

even if you cut a channel to allow for larger, heavier ships there would still be a bottleneck based on the number of ships that can navigate the river at one time. Larger ships such as oil tankers probably couldn't be serviced farther upstream.

There's a reason large ports are in coastal cities and inland ports are generally much smaller. If it was possible and economical to ship on a large scale from an inland river port, nobody would've trucked thier exports to NO to begin with.

[Fatima]

59. Why?

Disease-bourne mosquitoes.
Recovery of the dead.
Continued rescue efforts.
Etc.
Why would you ask such a thing?

[hatrack]

9. If you thought this year's Gulf Dead Zone was big . . .

Just wait until next year.

[leftofthedial]

10. all the better for the new Trent Lott "Front Porch Catfish Farms"

[Imagevision]

11. Who approved dumping back into Lake Ponchatrain, Jerkoff??

[mccoyn]

12. ACoE, EPA

I was watching one of the news channels interviewing someone from the Army Core of Engineers. He said that they consulted with the EPA before deciding to pump the water back into the lake.

I don't remember what channel I was watching or when. It was probally CNN or MSNBC last night.

[Lindacooks]

25. BUSH'S EPA???

Yeah, like I trust them. And my point is that this should have been part of contingency plans that chimpy scrapped when he stole the office in 2000. I can't be the first person to have thought of this. It's just another huge disaster caused by the total incompetence of the misadministration.

[lyonn]

32. Actually I hadn't thought of that

You make a very good point. My husband just suggested pumping it into the Miss. river. Haven't looked at a map but that makes more sense since it would flow to the gulf/bay. Is the lake water used for home consumption? Will chlorine kill enough of that crud?

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. We can't let them say it will be safe to drink.. we can't let 'em get away

with that. I don't care how much you clean it. You couldn't pay me to drinnk it. People DIED in it.

------------------------------------------------------
Save the Gulf:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=22507&mesg_id=22507

Then save the nation!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[tx_dem41]

34. New Orleans doesn't get its drinking water from Lake Pontchartrain n/t

[tx_dem41]

36. Lake Pontchartrain has been polluted for years (at least 20-25)....

very few fish live in it. Swimming is not allowed...and fishing is not allowed in it.

People, realize that every three years or so, the Bonnet Carre Spillway is opened up (diverting the Mississippi River into Lake Pontchartrain). Since this is downriver from the largest concentration of petrochemical plants in the country, believe me, this situation isn't much different.

[ToolTex]

14. "What else can they do with it?" Bottle it

and sell it at the next rethug convention.

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. LOL

:rofl: Yeah Baby!

[meow mix]

15. after 9-11 they said the air was just great, its just a little dust.

im supposing this is good water too.
i guess no one has been testing it because ive seen no testing results... hrm.

[Zuni]

16. where else will it go?

the filthy water will go back into the lake, The Mississippi river and the gulf somehow anyway. there is no avoiding it

[durablend]

18. So the Mississippi is also toast?

Gonna be fun when those shipping lanes are opened and that crap is spread all over the place.

[tx_dem41]

33. Do you honestly think the Mississippi isn't toxic already???

NO is 30-60 miles downriver from the largest concentration of petrochemical plants in the country. Lake Pontchartrain is already polluted as well.

[MsTryska]

28. you make a damn good point.....

whether on it's own or not - it will wind up in the ground water, in the marshes in the river and the lake.


altho i suppor the case could be made that if it were left to evaporate, it would wind up cleaner. But it doesn't jsut evaporate. and the sludge in the city would just get washed down the drain anyways after the fact.

[The_Casual_Observer]

20. They need to get it out to the gulf.

Is there some way of emptying the lake out to the gulf? I would seem that the lake might rise too high.

[DoYouEverWonder]

24. It probably will be a bit better for the Gulf

to dump it into the Lake and let it flow throught the system because the marshes will filter some of this stuff. However, I am sure no one is concerned about the environment at the moment. Most of that environment was pretty bad to begin with anyway.

[expatriate]

55. The lake does empty into the Gulf

It's basically a bay.

[MsTryska]

23. it's either that or put it in the mississippi

which takes it into the ocean.

there's not much choice at this point. I guess if they use Pontchartrain as a water source, they're going to have to do some major filtering.

[tx_dem41]

37. They don't use Lake Pontchartrain as a water source. n/t

[MsTryska]

40. cool. that solves that problem then.....

where do they get there water from?

[GumboYaYa]

51. The Mississippi, isn't that gross?

[MsTryska]

62. *lol* we get ours from the Chattahoochee i think.....nt

[tx_dem41]

52. Horribly enough....the river.

I think the bottled water industry started in New Orleans.

[MsTryska]

63. haha! it figures. nt

nt

[expatriate]

69. Lake Ponchartrain is not a water source.

It is a brackish lake, part salt water, part fresh. It has been severely polluted for decades. There is no swimming, no fishing allowed in it. At times, it has been recommended that if you get Lake water on you, to clean it off immediately and thoroughly.

The Mississippi River is the water source for New Orleans. It too is horrifically polluted at that point. It is filtered intensively, and there are vending machines in Louisiana where you can buy city water that has been filtered even more.

Most people I knew in New Orleans drank bottled water only.

[tx_dem41]

70. I was making the observation in another post that the bottled water..

industry might have started in New Orleans. Everybody seemed to have a Kentwood Spring Water cooler in their house even back in the 70s.

[Jersey Devil]

27. They have no other choice

As long as it is a one time deal, pouring pollutants in, the lake should revive itself in relatively quick order.

[Quixote1818]

30. It may damage the lake for a while but Nature is a natural filter

Bacteria and some of the chemicals in the water will eventually be filtered out naturally by the plant life in the lake. It's natural fertilizer actually. It will probably kill a number of fish but eventually be cleaned up naturally.

I wish they could do something else with the water but we are talking enormous amounts and it's either put it in the lake, dump it in the Mississippi or in the Ocean. The Ocean would be the best place as the salt water would kill a lot of the Bacteria.

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. It's all the oil and the chemicals that worry me

that are going directly into the Gulf.

Putting the flood water into the lake is a good idea. I'm glad it seems to be working. I thought they would have to go to the river because of water levels. That the lake might be too high to put more water into it. I guess that wasn't an issue.

[girl gone mad]

75. The gulf is already a dump.

Ever been to a Texas beach?

South Florida may be an exception, but the rest of the gulf is heavily polluted.

[KingFlorez]

38. Extend the pipe to Crawford

There's already enough crap there, a little more won't hurt :eyes:

[anarchy1999]

39. This is an environmental disaster of proportions we have never seen,

closest might be the Exxon Valdez (but that was only oil). Lake Ponchatrain is through, but for being just a really big toxic soup, no more fishing or recreation in my lifetime.

[DoYouEverWonder]

44. That's what everyone said when Saddam

poured his oil into the Persian Gulf.

[tx_dem41]

53. Lake Pontchartrain was through years ago.

And the river is toxic at New Orleans.

[DoYouEverWonder]

54. Yes, we have a winner

You should see the crap that's in my lake. There are very few lakes left that aren't already totally polluted.

[tx_dem41]

56. Hey....it's my hometown.

I drank the water from the river for about 20 years. :puke:

[Chovexani]

41. What about those oil spills?

Weren't there a couple of oil spills? I heard one report last week and didn't hear anything else about it.

[Lindacooks]

73. That was one of my worries. I've heard stories of people who

were wading through the flood waters who now have chemical burns. I don't think there are enough wetlands in the world to start cleaning this up.

[rainbow4321]

42. Love Canal-type landfill submerged in New Orleans floodwaters

http://www.solidwastemag.com/article.asp?id=47051&issue=09012005

Overlooked in many news reports about the unfolding storm disaster in the southern United States, especially in the City of New Orleans, in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, is a potentially dramatic pollution issue related to a toxic landfill that sits under the flood waters right in the city's downtown, according to map overlays of the flooded area. The situation could exacerbate the already dire threat to human health and the environment from the flood waters.

The Agriculture Street Landfill (ASL) is situated on a 95-acre site in New Orleans, Orleans Parish, Louisiana. The ASL is a federally registered Superfund site, and is on the National Priorities List of highly contaminated sites requiring cleanup and containment. A few years ago the site, which sits underneath and beside houses and a school, was fenced and covered with clean soil. However, three feet or more of flood waters could potentially cause the landfill's toxic contents – the result of decades of municipal and industrial waste dumping – to leach out.

Houses and buildings that were constructed in later years directly atop parts of the landfill. Residents report unusual cancers and health problems and have lobbied for years to be relocated away from the old contaminated site, which contains not only municipal garbage, but buried industrial wastes such as what would be produced by service stations and dry cleaners, manufacturers or burning. The site was routinely sprayed with DDT in the 1940s and 50s and, in 1962, 300,000 cubic yards of excess fill were removed from ASL because of ongoing subsurface fires. (The site was nicknamed "Dante's Inferno" because of the fires.)

The ASL can be thought of a sort of Love Canal for New Orleans -– and now it sits under water

[MsTryska]

43. oh my.

I didn't know NO was a Superfund site.

[tx_dem41]

57. The River Parishes (upriver from NOLA) through to the mouth...

of the river have about 3x the cancer rates as the rest of the country. But, we love it anyway. :crazy:

[MsTryska]

64. fabulous.

I remember when my Ex was based at Camp LeJeune in North Carolina - i used drive up to see him every couple weeks.


Well i always took the coastal highway up through North Carolina, and I would pass the Superfund site that way, and back then i had no idea what that meant.....i just thought it looked pretty enough, but slightly creepy with a strange smell. it wasn't til a couple of years later that i learned why.

[expatriate]

74. That area has extremely high birth defect rates as well.

A geneticist I consulted back in the 1980's in New Orleans said that was the case, including birth defects that are usually recessive turning up when both parents didn't have the gene. Something about all the chemicals in the environment screwing up the DNA.

[expatriate]

45. There is a long history of water being shunted through the Lake

When the Mississippi reaches a serious flood stage, it is sometimes partially diverted through Lake Ponchartrain, to relieve pressure on the river levees. The Mississippi is incredibly polluted at that point, as it is the sewer of America, and drains almost all the river systems east of the Continental Divide.

The last time I remember this being done was 1997, but it might have been done since. It does play environmental havoc with the Lake. In 1997, there was strong resistance to diverting the Mississippi through the Lake, because the Lake had recovered from being horrifically polluted up until the 1980's, when swimming in the Lake was prohibited, and for a while, fishing in the Lake was also prohibited. There are "Dead Zones" in Lake Ponchartrain, as well as colonies of cholera and e.coli. In 1997, the Lake had made a wonderful comeback, fishing and shrimping had begun again, there was talk of re-opening the beach - then the Mississippi reached a dangerous flood level, and the water had to be diverted through the spillway to the Lake, setting the entire Lake reclamation back decades.

There really is little choice but to pump the standing water in New Orleans into the Lake or the river. Either way, it will end up in the Gulf Of Mexico. The Lake is more easily accessible, as most of the river levees in New Orleans are tens of feet high.

It's tragic, one more tragedy to add to a horrific situation. There really is no other option, short of abandoning the city completely and waiting who knows how long for the water to dry up. It is over 20 feet in the East New Orleans area. The only option is to pump it, and it has to go somewhere.

[rainbow4321]

46. "Louisiana..was known for its very weak enforcement regulations"

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/12555844.htm

TOXIC CLEANUP

Louisiana, a center of the oil, gas and chemical industries, "was known for its very weak enforcement regulations," Kaufman said, and there are a number of landfills and storage areas containing "thousands of tons" of hazardous material to be leaked and spread.

"On top of that, you have dead bodies that are going to start to decompose, along with the material that was in industrial and household discharge, sewage, gasoline and waste oil from gas stations," he added. "You've got a witches' brew of contaminated water."

Given New Orleans's desperate straits, recovery teams will not be able to do anything with the toxic mess except pump it into the Gulf of Mexico, ensuring that the contamination will spread to a larger area, he said. "There's just no other place for it."

Once the water is gone, environmental officials will probably undertake a "grid survey," sampling the formerly flooded areas to get soil profiles and determine how safe it is for residents to move back or rebuild.

[liberaliraqvet26]

50. do they have a choice??

I think it's better off in lake ponchatrain than in lake new orleans.

[expatriate]

60. Louisiana is already toxic.

It has been for decades. There are illegal toxic waste dumps everywhere. Chemicals from the refineries and chemical plants are released into the air and into the water. The Mississippi River is toxic at New Orleans, yet New Orleans gets its drinking water from the River.

The cancer rates south of Baton Rouge are high. Geneticists I have talked to suspect that birth defect rates are also high in Southern Louisiana.

What's in New Orleans now will certainly have a terrible impact, but it isn't as if it's going to go into a pristine environment. The Mississippi has chemicals, sewage from a goodly part of the country and who knows what else in it at New Orleans. The Gulf is already a damn mess too.

[Roland99]

61. There was brief mention of this on NPR

Essentially, it boiled down to that it had to be done and that the lake will recover.