Does saying "I don't know who did it" make someone a conspiracy theorist"?

[Minstrel Boy]

I thought one needed to theorize first.

Even though all speculation about London at this stage must conspiracy theory, only some speculation is expected to wear that demeaning label and like it. Even if there's no speculation at all, and rather, merely, a withholding of judgement until we have more evidence.

A "senior US counterterrorism official" can say, anonymously and without support, that he suspects al-Zarqawi. And reporters, rather than convulse in spit-takes or consider why it serves US interests to float such a preposterous allegation, take it down and regurgitate it as though he were serious. Such figures are considered, by default, to be "informed" sources, even though they are actually the worst kind of conspiracy theorists: they don't respect their theory enough to back up their baseless assertion, which they make only because they are pushing an agenda.

Since Europe remembers Operation Gladio, and the revelations of connivance of Western military intelligence with fascists, gangsters and secret societies to wage a false flag terror campaign to discredit its democratic Left (most notoriously, the Bologna train bombing, which killed more people than the London attack), no speculation should be discounted out of hand, and nothing should be taken at face value. (Gladio agent Vincenzo Vinciguerra testified "You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force...the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security.") And yet to simply recall this history, and say I don't know who bombed London, is to be called a credulous, tinfoil-wearing clown who makes us look bad.

Help me out here.

[havocmom]

1. Would like to help you out, but at present, even the Theory of Relativity

seems likely to be attacked, censored or otherwise dismissed.

Reality has gone way beyond the worst imaginings of most of us the past few years. It bothers me that discourse is being cut short on many issues.

[The Magistrate]

4. The Fact Is, Ma'am

A great many people feel this sort of speculation ludicrous. Their expression of their views is neither attack nor censorship, and they atre well within their rights to be dismissive, as no evidence whatever is produced to back up these speculations....

[noiretextatique]

6. a great many people

voted for bush, inc, and still believe hussein was behind 911 :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

8. They Are Not On This Site, Ma'am

Expressions of belief that many find ludicrous will draw comment to that effect, Ma'am. Nothing else can be expected, and the phenomenon is not an unwholesome one, though it may be uncomfortable for some who are not used to being challenged.

[noiretextatique]

33. oh yes they are

the iraq lie has been repeated here, and i am certain at least a few here support bush, inc.

[The Magistrate]

42. We Remove Such Persons, Ma'am

As quickly as we find them, and search for them diligently....

[Name removed]

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[TheGoodCitizen]

134. I am somewhat new to the fourm feature of this site...

and to be honest I have been afraid to post due to your very point.

It makes me sad!

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Endangered Specie]

182. You do not need to worry about such things...

many people here have opinions that sway from the 'mainstream' of progressive thought. There are pro-lifers, RKBA, anti-PETA, civil unions only people, people of all faiths etc (to name a few examples)...

People who tell you they are being oppressed/silenced on this board are most likely exaggerating and trying to elicit sympathy or pity.

[Name removed]

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[Endangered Specie]

226. Well, I did say that after reading the thread,...

so I guess thats that... if you have a complaint about the way DU is run, contact the admins.

In any event, I people confuse the Magistrate's formal (sir/ma'am) stlye of posting as baiting. and when the Magistrate was referring to "removing persons" from DU I believe he was reffering to people who support Bush.

I do not believe he was baiting, he was posting an opinion and having a spirited debate.

Sorry, but I side with the moderator(s) on this one, they are tolerating alot, and I hope you realise that the mods are people just like you and me, volunteer their valuable time, take alot of flak, and frankily are showing an amazing amount of tolerance in regard to the attacks and accusations against them.

[Name removed]

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[Tinoire]

47. Is the hide thread feature broken for those "great many people"?

Or are they complaining non-donors who can't take advantage of those features?

These mysterious "great many people" have no right to dictate what will and won't be discussed within a community, especially a progressive one and the last time I checked, this was a community that didn't just spring up overnight but was created with the hard work of a great many 'conspiracy theorists'.

Surely these "great many people" can meet other members halfway and use their "hide thread" or "ignore" feature? Or will they not be happy until this place is a mirror reflection of some vapid ladeeda FOX/NYT forum?

Trust me, I'm as loathe to read many of the vapid mainstream threads, as this unidentified "great many people" is to read non-mainstream-sourced stuff. It IS an attack and it IS censorship to lock threads under questionnable pretexts or to make them disappear under the original poster's very eyes.

We should be above that sort of sheep-herding especially during these dangerous Ministry of Propaganda times when independent thought is more critical than ever. And I find it very wrong, very disappointing when moderators ridicule posters and use a heavy hand to direct the flow of conversation. It's unseemly imo. I understand that moderators are human, are fellow posters and want to participate but maintaining an appearance of impartiality when moderating is very important.

If a "great many people" are turned off by this sort of speculation, then that same "great many people" should make themselves heard and the thing put up to a vote. We are fighting for democracy are we not?

Personally, I don't know how you do it nor do I understand why anyone in their right mind would accept being a mod for too long. I know it would wear me out!

[The Magistrate]

52. Are You Saying, Ma'am

That people have no right to indicate doisagreement with a view contrary to their own?

Does anyone comment here with the expectation people who disagree will simply hold their peace and go away without stating their own views?

[Tinoire]

58. I'm saying that moderators should exude impartiality

and maintain a certain degree of decorum while they're going about their magistral duties ;)

It's like being part of the jury or an umpire.

Ordinary people, posters, who disagree have not been holding their peace and wimpering away, au contraire, the same few have been in all the recent threads scolding that stories were debunked, that certain sites were not credible, implying that other people were stupid for not being reasonable enough to believe official versions or what little a historically complicit press was saying.

Moderators who disagree should be another matter. It's that decorum thing. And it comes with the job- or at least it should.

I don't want to get into an argument with you because this issue is something I'm so upset with that I already voiced my concerns to Skinner about it- both publically and privately. The first time was when those "great many people" were so appalled when the mother of all conspiracy WMDs-in-Iraq theorists, the New York Times, mocked DU. It was a great disappointment to watch how "a great many people" tried to seize that occasion to beat up on conspiracy theorists for making DU "look bad". For the New York Times at that!

Everyday, I see more and more of my old friends disappearing from this site and going elsewhere. It's a crying shame don't you think? To me it's a true reflection of the increasing divide in the party itself.
Very, very sad.

[Name removed]

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[nashville_brook]

61. amen

i'm getting really tired of this "conspiracy" witch hunt. what's next -- purging folks who don't spellcheck!

[Moochy]

71. amen to that nt

[Sterling]

108. I amen your amen.

Amen.

[seemslikeadream]

111. Thanks for being here Sterling

What a trashy thing to do to a long standing member of this forum. Disgraceful simply disgraceful.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Mayberry Machiavelli]

154. Word...

[meppie-meppie not]

213. ?

[NoSheep]

148. Amen here!

:eyes:

[stickdog]

173. Removing threads (or locking them or sending then to the 9/11 dungeon)

isn't the same as stating your disagreement openly.

[seemslikeadream]

206. DemocraticUnderground use to be way ahead of the curve

At the beginning there was such great stuff going on here all the time so much interesting things NO one was ever bashed to the basement, there was no basement! We could talk about anything it was really incredible I loved it so much. Now you have to watch what you say, I have been so uncomfortable about this for too long now.


What now we have to wait till MSM is talking about something before it can be discussed here?

[theearthisround]

223. That sounds remarkably like the FreeRepublic!

I remember during the Gannon/Gosch saga reading some old threads from the FreeRepublic talking about The Franklin Cover-up and George HW Bush's involvement with, of all things, homosexual pedophilia. Practically every response was very open minded to the idea and none of them called it conspiracy theory or whatever other nonsense one uses to ridicule opposition. In fact, everyone was helping out finding more and more information on the case and doing research into whether or not there is more to the story!

[JackRiddler]

73. you seek to make it sound harmless

For many, this disagreement is carried out in the form of debate using argument, evidence and logic (whether good or not).

Then there are those who hurl ad hominem invective; who think it's enough to say, "preposterous" or "conspiracy theory" and they've won. This is on the intellectual level of declaring your team the good guys and going home for a beer.

But what I really mind is when threads containing genuine news about London are kicked to the 9/11 forum (even if they're not about 9/11); when a "Kos" sees fit to purge his site of all who allow for the obvious hypothesis (among several) that this was a false flag attack like all the Italian "Gladio" productions (proven, established).

That is censorship. It's the legal censorship of a proprietor, but censorship nevertheless.

With a strong dash of denial.

[havocmom]

83. By the criteria you pose,

buying the MSM parroted explaination also is ludicrous, sir.

[screembloodymurder]

87. Then refute the speculation with logic and facts.

But don't stop others from speaking their minds. This place has always been about saying what others refused to say. That's why this is the underground. Damn it!

[havocmom]

92. Careful now, screembloodymurder, lest you be amonst those who perhaps

protest too much ;) Oh, wait, that was some other dude... nevermind

[Frederik]

120. A great many people?

I have counted only a handful of such people. They may be as dismissive or disruptive as they want for what I care. What bothers me is the deleting of threads and the moving to the 9/11 forum of threads that do not dscuss 9/11.

[TheGoodCitizen]

143. I don't like the one's that are locked that say...

"This thread has run it's course"

[Just Me]

2. I know I don't know who is responsible for that disgusting act,...

,...of barbaric violence. I also know to be highly skeptical of everything that comes out of this particular government.

I don't care whether my position "looks bad" to certain people.

[The Magistrate]

5. And By 'Certain People', Ma'am

You mean who?

[Just Me]

11. I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.

I don't know who would adjudge me as "looking bad" just because I confess that I haven't a clue who committed such a horrific crime. I don't know who prolly 'cause I really don't care.

[nashville_brook]

59. what's up with "ma'am"

is this a just a creative flourish?

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

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[Tinoire]

85. Magistrate has always been exceedingly civil in language

and has always called everyone Sir or Ma'am.

2 years ago, in the cesspools of I/P everyone, no matter how vile, was always addressed as Sir or Ma'am. I am not sure if my friend the Magistrate smiles when he does it. My mother does that constantly, the more pointed the "Sir", the higher the eyebrow and the more pointed the unspoken rebuke.

Magistrate, one day hopefully, we will meet. When we do, I am dying to see with what twinkle in your eye you use those terms ;)

Unfailing civility is rather nice, I'm afraid I just don't have the patience anymore... not in a world going to hell in a hand-basket but I admire those who can hold on to it.

I wonder how much street violence would be but down if everyone had to call each other Sir or Ma'am ;)

[Sterling]

103. Sir or ma'am is meaningless in the context of

condescending and insulting. In fact it ads to the insult.

I am pretty sure people were respectful when the dueled and respectful when knights met on the battlefield. Officers in opposite armies afford each other these kinds of respects but they are just formalities that do little to mitigate the context of violence. So no just saying Sir does not mean you are being respectful.

In terms of respect I prefer to get the real thing or none at all.

[Tinoire]

123. Can't disagree with a word you said.

It doesn't mean you're being respectful, just being polite. I don't disagree with a word you said.

Now quit burying me ok? I'm not getting paid for this!

P.S. Would you drop me a PM with your e-mail address? I have some wicked music I need to send to you!

[nashville_brook]

130. it "feels" like the way a police officer uses language

to intimidate

[Beam Me Up]

116. Really? I thought it was just passive aggressive -- hiding insults

beneath a veneer that was actually meant to bait and agrivate.

[alittlelark]

118. Ding Ding Ding!!!!

We have a winner!

[Sterling]

159. I am so glad others see it too.

I have been annoyed with that tactic for years.

[alittlelark]

187. He's been after me twice in the past.

Not. Cool.

[not systems]

227. yep.

:grr:

[Tinoire]

122. I think it really depends on the tone

My family calls everyone from the gas station attendants on up Sir... Actually I lied, my father used to call most of the gas station attendants he knew "Professor" but it was out of a genuine reverence for their world wisdom. Still, most people were Sir or Ma'am... I think that oftentimes it's used to enforce a distance and discourage familiarity though.

Still it's better than that condescending "Dear" that was making the rounds of this board a year ago. I wouldn't take any offense to it... The surrounding words are what really matter. And the intent... I've had many a pleasant, enlightening exchange with The Magistrate before I became this impatient cantankerous thing and it's always been Sir or Ma'am no matter how heated and impolite I became years later.

Is there really any offense in using those terms? If there is, the beauty of them is that no one can fault you for encasing your more negative statements in pure civility.

This is just a case of the cat calling the mouse Sir... Civility before dinner ;) but is the crime in the civility or in the meal?

I don't disagree that you can hide an awful lot beneath a veneer but I think the test case is to look for consistency. If someone consistently calls you Sir or Ma'am, on good days and bad days, then there can be no insult in the words themselves.

Or am I talking in circles? I probably am... my brain is pure mush this afternoon. Sorry for talking your ear off and still feeling I didn't say squat! Like I told Sterling, I'm not getting paid for this so let me withdraw from this discussion of Sir/Ma'am. My heart isn't in it...

[Beam Me Up]

131. I'll simply pay my respects in appreciation for your reply.

Personally I appreciate civility, when it is genuine. I like the image of the cat calling the mouse, sir. Indeed he should! One is what one eats, I've been told.




:hi:

[JackRiddler]

144. damn you, sir!

You beat me to my own comment. Fully agreed.

For years, this know-bettering condescension!

Don't no one call me "sir" in a forum!

[Beam Me Up]

152. I'll be sure to never do that, JackRiddler!

:hi:

[The Magistrate]

3. It Depends, Sir

In many instances, such things are simply a tired old wheeze on the lines of, "Well, I don't know if he beats his wife or not...." Often, it is clearly the intention of such a formulation to plant an idea, and then water it with further protestations of the need to "keep an open mind." The process is a pretty simple one, and we are all familiar with it. It requires, Sir, to put it mildly, a degree of otherwordliness to ignote the presence and determination of the jihadis, in favor of vapor concerning "other possibilities" in incidents like this....

"I only know what I read in the papers."

[Minstrel Boy]

10. It requires a willing suspension of disbelief,

or merely ignorance, to believe it's as simple as "us" or "them."

Certainly Jihadists exist, and in greater numbers today than four years ago. There are no shortage of those who would gladly give their lives to strike a blow against crusader nations. (Yet that can also be said to be by design, according to the neoconservatives' rule-by-spiralling-chaos theory.)

But al Qaeda is a funny fish. After all, it was contracted by MI6 in the mid-90s for an assassination attempt on Qaddafi. Paid them one hundred thousand pounds for the job. (Former MI5 agent David Shayler broke the story and had a Sibel Edmonds-like gag order slapped on him for his troubles. The story was echoed by French Intelligence in the book Forbidden Truth.)

Omar Saeed Sheikh, bin Laden's "favourite son" who lured Daniel Pearl to his death, was raised in London, and only left the UK in the mid-90s. Besides being a member of al Qaeda, he was also an agent of Pakistani intelligence, the ISI, and wired $100,000 to Atta at the direction of the ISI chief, Mahmood Ahmed, who was meeting with Porter Goss in Washington on the morning of Sept 11. Since the Soviet war in Afghanistan, the ISI has served as the CIA's proxy go-between with jihadist groups in Central Asia. (See Who Killed Daniel Pearl?)

Not all flags are false, but false flag operations are not paranoid conjecture. And affixing blame to "al Qaeda" doesn't make the picture any clearer.

[The Magistrate]

12. So What, Sir?

None of this means anything, and certainly does not mean what you would want people to suppose it meant, that the group is an arm of U.S. intelligence tasked to strike New York and London, and also doubtless Madrid, and anywhere else jihadi bombs have gone off or will go off.

That jihadis are hand in glove with the Pakistani service is common knowledge, but the idea the U.S. runs Pakistan's ISI is nonesense. That agency is, in many ways, a state within the state, and pursues its own policy for the reclaimation of Kashmir and the security of Pakistan. All of its actions are aimed to these goals. It has made use of C.I.A. intentions to harm the Soviets, and is even today making use of the hunt for Bin Ladin, even while it obstructs it. That the ISI, or ISI agents, may have been involved in the September attacks is not an unreasonable theory, but it does not in the slightest degree indicate involvement of U.S. or English agencies, or Israeli ones for that matter.

That some foolish attempt was made to make use of the hostilities the jihadis exhibit towards secularists like Ghaddahdfi is far from indicating control of the organization, or even alliance with it. This sort of divide and conquer strategem is routine, and the frequency with which it backfires only illustrates the general rule that what we learn from history is that we do not learn from history.

Certainly that some Islamic radical is born in London is meaningless. There has long been a Moslem community there, and many of its members are quite hostile to the West, identifying with their heritage from overseas. Indeed, operatives with some Western background are particularly valuable to the cause, as they can do things persons without acclimation to the foreign scene cannot readily do.

[Minstrel Boy]

16. I didn't say the CIA "ran" the ISI.

I said the ISI had served for years as the CIA's proxy go-betweens to the jihadists of Central Asia. If you don't know that, you really ought to. (Steve Coll, author of Ghost Wars: "The intensive collaboration between the CIA, ISI, and Saudi intelligence; the most successful covert action certainly in the modern history of the CIA and one of the most successful in the history of intelligence.... A very broad pattern was established in which the CIA subcontracted the anti-Soviet jihad to ISI")

The US permitted a secret airlift of Pakistani fighters, including two generals, to leave Kunduz. The best intelligence suggests bin Laden has spent much of the past four years in Pakistan, but of course the United States must respect Pakistani "sovereignty."

Nothing seem strange to you here? Other than me, that is?

[The Magistrate]

18. What Is Supposed To Seem Strange To Me, Sir?

The C.I.A. made use of the jihadis against the Soviet Union, and the I.S.I. helped. That shows the world is in good working order. The I.S.I. had its own reasons for co-operating, as it views Afghanistan as its fall-back position should India invade decisively: it wanted to deny that ground to the Soviet Union, and cement control over its political and military apparat. Neither of these things was important to the C.I.A., which was content with the anti-Soviet effect of their actions. This sort of overlap of interest occurs often in the "intelligence" world, and does not signify alliance: cut-throats of this stripe have no friends, only interests.

The airlift seems to have been the price of Pakistani co-operation in other areas. The principal activity of Al Queda in Afghanistan was the provision of fighters for the I.S.I. operations in Kashmir, which is the Holy Grail of both Pakistani nationalism and I.S.I. policy. Accepting the dismantling of this operation was, from their view, a tremendous concession, and one that enabled them to exact some payment for its execution.

Acceptance of Pakistani sovereignty is a practical necessity, Sir, uncomfortable as it may seem. The place is a tinderbox; its people hate us; its terrain is nightmarish in military terms, and it is possessed of nuclear weapons, which in case of rebellion or civil war, the certain outcome of pressing too hard in the matter, almost certainly would fall into hostile hands. These are the real considerations of policy, Sir, and would operate on any U.S. administration.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. Apparently you presume the CIA-ISI relationship

went south after the departure of the Soviets, as though the Soviets were there only point of congruity. (I wonder what you make of stories regarding the role of both agencies in the international narcotics trade? Nevermind, I think I know.)

As I said, ISI Chief Mahmood Ahmed directed Saeed Sheikh to wire funds to Mohammed Atta. (The link was made by Indian authorities and the FBI by tracing Omar's mobile phone, and he promptly resigned.)

On September 10, 2001 the Pakistani newspaper The News reported that Ahmed's week-long visit to Washington had "triggered speculation about the agenda of his mysterious meetings at the Pentagon and National Security Council":

"What those matters could be is a matter of pure conjecture. One can safely guess that the discussions must have centred around Afghanistan, relations with India and China, disarmament of civilian outfits, country's nuclear and missiles programme and, of course, Osama Bin Laden.

"What added interest to his visit is the history of such visits. Last time Ziauddin Butt, Mahmood's predecessor, was here during Nawaz Sharif's government the domestic politics turned topsy-turvy within days. That this is not the first visit by Mahmood in the last three months shows the urgency of the ongoing parleys."

A week-long visit to Washington by the chief of the ISI, meeting high-level officials over the period of the attacks; a man who, just weeks before, had authorized his al Qaeda contact to wire funds to Atta, and who is allowed to quietly retire without facing interrogation - nothing to see here?

[The Magistrate]

30. Of Course Meetings Continue, Sir

Everyone meets with everyone, always. It is one of the ways they keep tabs on one another. Given the existance of the Pakistani nuclear program, the border clashes with India, the interest of U.S. agencies in Al Queda following the attack on our embassies and the U.S.S. Cole, it would surprise me greatly if there were no meetings with I.S.I. representatives. Someone would not have been doing their job properly of there had been none.

The reason the man was allowed to retire quietly remains the same common knowledge that the I.S.I. was hand in glove with Al Queda in the interest of operations in Kashmir. These are extraordinarily popular in Pakistan, and it would be extremely dangerous to move against a man identified with them, from the point of view of Gen. Musharref, whatever the desire of the United States might have been.

The essential thing in these matters, Sir, is understanding of the whole local picture, and leaving go the idea there is only one actor in affairs. There are many, many actors, each with its own agendas, and what events issue emerge from the interplay, rather than being the product of some central direction. In its own way, it is rather like the debate between Darwinists and Intelligent Designers over evolution of life forms....

[Minstrel Boy]

31. I don't appreciate the creationist swipe,

but since you're the moderator, I can't very well alert on you, can I?

[The Magistrate]

34. If You Feel The Analogy Actionable, Sir

By all means alert on it; it will be treated like any other alert. What rule do you feel the analogy violates?

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

78. You have a funny standards of what constitutes "good working order"

"The C.I.A. made use of the jihadis against the Soviet Union, and the I.S.I. helped. That shows the world is in good working order.That shows the world is in good working order."

Sounds like someone lives in a Tom Clancey novel.

[JackRiddler]

74. Don't forget the money

Throughout the 1980s, the Pakistani regime of Zia was a top-five recipient of U.S. military "aid," worth about $100 million a year, despite its known heroin-dealing, use of torture, terrorism, etc.

By treaty, the CIA had veto power over the ISI director and presumably still does (note that Ahmed was pushed out in Oct. 2001 at the insistence of the FBI).

In 2001, the ISI director goes to DC for a whole week, and we're supposed to think the relationship is no longer as tight?

[Old and In the Way]

110. Don't forget the money (II)

We were turning a blind eye to Pakistan's nuclear weapon's development in the late 80's so we could sell them F-16's. And then we have Dick Cheney, as CEO of Halliburton, busy selling dual use WMD components to Pakistan in the 90's. If there is a case for treason, seems we know where the actors reside.

Saudi Arabia/Pakistan seem to be the bad guys on 9/11, but who do we punish? Secular Iraq who seems to have had no hand in that event. Until our mainstream media educates the American public on how the personal/financial relationships of the people in this administration influence our foreign policy/national security priorities, I think we're in very big trouble.

[BurtWorm]

55. You mean that threads pointing out certain facts about 7/7

that don't directly support the theory that Muslims are guilty are to be considered "ludicrous conspiracy theories?"

Is that why all threads dealing with Peter Power's company have been moved to the back rooms out of public sight? Even before we have a chance to digest what this fact means?

Magistrate, sir, I tend to be as skeptical of conspiracy theories as anybody, but I take minstrelboy's point very well. Why be afraid of allowing this fact sit out in full public view? What's the point of censoring what should and shouldn't be part of this story at this stage of the game?

[stickdog]

192. So you are saying that considering all possible suspects is bad because it

detracts from concentrating on the suspects who have already been convicted -- without any evidence other than their widely and constantly purported motive -- by both "conventional wisdom" and the corporate media?

Just wondering again why aggressively attempting to limit discussion of possible suspects to the Islamic jihadis that we all implicitly somehow already "know" must be responsible is in the best interests of this or any forum.

[noiretextatique]

7. funny how this works...

some rail against the MSM, but swallow whatever they dish out on occasion. it's quite baffling.
i think your position is very reasonable.

[brindis_desala]

9. It is a waste of energy to speculate on people's reactions. All you

can do is state the evidence, direct and circumstantial, provide the historical basis for your doubt and/or speculation then leave it at that. The curious minds will test your hypothesis, the fearful and those who accept both the benevolence and truthfulness of their authorities will reject it, while the disruptors resort to craven ridicule. The world didn't get this way because it is comprised of great humanitarian thinkers.

[Walt Starr]

13. Speculation is cool, just don't state it as fact

but if you speculate, you need to present some evidence to support it, especially in extraordinary speculations.

At the very least, present what evidence would be required to push the speculation into the realm of theory. If such evidence can be found, the speculation can then be expanded. If not, it can be jettisoned as useless.

[The Magistrate]

14. Indeed, Mr. Starr

That is the problem. It is similar to what happens when people argue by hyperbole: when they do it long and hard enough, they come to feel their hypebolic exaggeration is actually the fact, losing sight of the fact they have been employing a rhetorical device only.

[Minstrel Boy]

17. I say I don't know who bombed London. Do you?

If so, how do you know it?

[Walt Starr]

19. Nope, I don't know who bombed London either.

Those who state that Bush and Blair are responsible, however, are making spurious accusations with no evidence whatsoever to back it up. This crap has been going on with DU for far too long, and every time I see somebody who does this I will be calling them on it.

Here's an example of speculation along these lines with qualification:

"Bush or Blair could be responsible. Evidence to show this would be video evidence of those who planted the bombs where the perpetrators can be identified and tied directly to Bush or Blair. Absent this sort of evidence, however, Bush and/or Blair CANNOT be held directly responsible. It could also be argued that the policies of Bush and blair lead directly to this attack, depending upon who perpetrated the act."

See how that works? No conspiracy theory and the speculation is fine. Teh speculation can be jettisoned as useless if the perpetrators cannot be tied to these men and especially if they can be tied directly to a terrorist organization.

Works pretty well, huh?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

22. Oh yeah

:eyes:

sorry, but Kos wa absolutely corerct in what he did, and DU should follow suit. Fortunately, the 911 conspiracy whacko theories have been relegated to the basement. Hopefully, the 7.7 crap will be soon, also.

[JackRiddler]

76. unbelievable...

To Bush supporters, your view of Rove is "conspiracy theory."

Oh, and when I met Andy Stephenson last year in New York, he made clear to me his unmitigated conviction that the Bush regime engineered 9/11. No shit. I'm sure others who have met him can confirm.

But you think what Kos did was acceptable and constructive? At least get some consistency about it.

[Sterling]

81. I can confirm as well. Jeff as well was very suspicious of 9-11/Bush.

These people need to get a life and stop pooping in the plow.

[JackRiddler]

89. It's ironic, isn't it?

In the early days Andy and anyone else who brought up the mere potential of voting fraud were also indiscriminately attacked using the "conspiracy theory" label.

It's tiring, isn't it?

[Sterling]

107. Older than dirt it has become.

Thankfully most DUers are not such curmudgeons. If they were I think the "Double Plus Good" faction would have stamped it out long ago.

[Tinoire]

I can tell you Andy Stephenson was convinced of a lot of things

that would have upset a lot of the people singing his praises now. I truly chuckle about this thinking how ironic it is that once you die, people develop amnesia about what you believed in and create their own vision of you.

Talk a look in the archives for his posts, under the name of GodBushandCheney on Skull and Bones & the Illuminati. He was extremely knowledgeable about the matter.

So yeah, I confirm what you said and more even.

[Minstrel Boy]

96. He's not here to "make us look bad" anymore,

so his tinfoil hat can be twisted into a halo.

[Tinoire]

98. I have lots of his stuff saved because it was very good...

I'm all for carrying on Andy's legacy but it most be the WHOLE legacy and not some little snippet.

[Sterling]

104. Thank god that there are people like Andy

who don't care what "they" think about them and are not afraid to get their hands dirty thinking for themselves.

[JackRiddler]

105. right, I forgot that one

Andy as "GodBush&Cheney" was very big on skull & bones, too.

It's amazing the hypocrisy and lack of memory we sometimes see on this board, including from people who have been around for years.

This "get the conspiracy theorists" stuff comes up only when the money is on the table, meaning, after the latest terror atrocity (when everyone is supposed to fall into line and breathlessly await what the gangsters-in-power announce as the Official Conspiracy Theory) or just before a major election.

At most other times, it's not even noticed that about half the people here don't buy the 9/11 myth and know the criminals in power are self-evidently capable of any crime.

[KoKo]

175. Agree the acceptability of "theories" waxes and wanes,

around here and many a person has gotten "The Stone" because they spoke out at one of the times you mention whereas what they said in a different scenario got a pass. :-(

[seemslikeadream]

138. Thank you so much Tinoire

[theearthisround]

191. Wow, VERY fascinating! Great post!

[stickdog]

210. Andy's thoughtcrime is obviously not a problem around here any longer.

Thus he can be cannonized without risk.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

25. "Evidence to show this would be..."

"video evidence of those who planted the bombs where the perpetrators can be identified and tied directly to Bush or Blair."

It's a good thing Intelligence agencies haven't heard of plausible deniability. Otherwise, goodness, they could get away with all sorts of mischief!

[Walt Starr]

26. That was only one example

and speculation about intelligence agencies being responsible requires some extraordinary evidence to back it up, otherwise it is safe to jettison such speculation as useless.

[Minstrel Boy]

28. Suspicion is well-founded after Operation Gladio.

No more extraordinary evidence should be required to begin speculation, because the precedent of killing civilians to drive a society to demand greater security has already been established in modern Europe.

If you've never heard of it, please follow the link in the original post to the testimony of one of its agents.

[Walt Starr]

40. I read the story

I don't buy it because very little in the way of evidence was presented.

In fact, the column at the Moscow Times is itself, a conspiracy theory.

Get me some facts. Present real evidence. That's the requirement.

[Minstrel Boy]

43. I won't do your thinking for you

But I do know now how informed I should regard your conclusions.

Apparently, you dismiss history's accounts of conspiracies because they sound like conspiracy theory.

[Walt Starr]

46. No, I dismiss conspiracy theory columns as conspiracy theopries

Give me some evidence and I can be convinced. The article doesn't do that. It speculates and offers flimsy conlcusions based upon evidence it does not produce.

[Minstrel Boy]

49. It's taken a lifetime to educate myself.

You have to educate yourself.

Read the book whose cover I posted. Google "Strategy of Tension" and "Operation Gladio." There are thousands of links (many more would become available if you spoke Italian) so don't balk when you see some you think are "tinfoily." This is history, though it's not taught in most American schools.

[Walt Starr]

51. I have educated myself

and I choose not to waste my time on the tinfoil theories, thankyouverymuch.

There are too many reality based issues to continue educating myself on for me to waste any time on the nutballery out there.

[seemslikeadream]

63. tinfoil theories - like your GOOD friend wasted his time on?

[Frederik]

126. You just revealed a whole lot

"I choose not to waste my time on the tinfoil theories, thankyouverymuch"

You constantly ask for evidence, but when presented with it, you refuse to "waste your time" on it.

Since you haven't "wasted your time" on this material, maybe you should accept the authority of those who have?

[Frederik]

124. See, how come I knew this

People who constantly yell "show me the evidence" usually won't accept any evidence they are presented with, so that they can continue to yell "show me the evidence" in perpetuity.

If you were informed about the history of modern terrorism, you would already know about Gladio.

"During the Cold War secret armies in all West European states prepared themselves for possible Soviet invasion. An ETH study was presented last week that shows how these hidden groups operated and did not even shrink from terror attacks against their own people."

http://www.ethlife.ethz.ch/e/articles/sciencelife/NatoGeheimarmee.html

[TheGoodCitizen]

155. I know you are but what am I.... I know you are but what am I?

....is it kinda like that?

[Frederik]

158. Very much like that

"Talk to my hand" :-)

[Sterling]

161. Just like that in fact.

I was going to say the whole thing was very childish but that analogy is spot on.

[stickdog]

217. But convicting of a cave dwelling Muslim Dr. Evil on a dialysis machine

and/or a limb and life regenerating Jordanian super-villain requires none at all?

Why? Because you find one storyline more comforting than the other?

[frictionlessO]

50. That is not speculation anymore at that point, it is a claim.

I seem to have had it backwards I guess but I always thought that once you start gathering evidence (or whoever collecting considers hard evidence) you are pursuing a claim.

When I think of the word "speculate" I think that means sorta "gut instinct" or "off the top of your head", I guess connotatively speaking?

If you are suggesting that when one merely wants to brainstorm a theory and think out loud here at DU they need to always have found facts that are acceptable to everyone at DU? That doesn't sound exactly fair to me.

[Old and In the Way]

115. Well, how does that square when threads are started about the

Peter Powers interview without speculation and then deleted? Just presenting an important fact, as broadcast/recorded by BBC? If so, I'm beginning to wonder who gets to decide what's news. No one is saying, "Bush did it - here's why..." But it certainly is a relevant fact, in light of the coincidental simulations that occurred on 9/11, don't you think? At the very least, I'd be concerned that we might have hi-level moles in our governments who are exploiting knowledge of training exercises to commit terrorist acts and spreading the resulting havoc and fear on our societies.

[stickdog]

203. Isn't it EXTRAORDINARY to simply assume that EVERY act of

US & GB terror is perpetrated by cave-dwelling Muslims on dialysis machines who hate us for our freedoms?

What actual EVIDENCE leads anyone to support this unfounded speculation?

[dogday]

15. It is ok to ask questions and to speculate

as long as you state you are. "Facts are Facts" - well in this day and time, no one seems to be getting a lot of truth and yes we tend to read and take everything with a grain of salt because of our disbeliefs.

Our disbelief in our Government, our disbelief in our press, and our belief that we are not getting the true facts of the situation. This is where the feeling stems from. The not knowing or the disbelieving of the truth when it is told..

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiki]

24. I think you're spot on.

The occasional voices in the UK media reminding us that we don't yet actually know who is responsible are becoming quieter and more fleeting, despite the fact that no evidence to the contrary has been offered. As I said on the day, the assertion that it was Islamic boogeymen is transforming before our eyes from conjecture to "fact", with barely a word of evidence or critical analysis.

[seemslikeadream]

27. Is this allowed it has the word conspiracy in it?

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/071105.html

Rove's Leak Points to Bush Conspiracy
By Robert Parry
July 11, 2005


A key national security principle for dealing with top-secret information, such as the identity of undercover CIA officers, is strict compartmentalization, often called “the need to know” – which raises the question why George W. Bush’s chief political adviser Karl Rove would know anything about the identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame.

Oh and before anyone asks

Yes I am a smart ass, as saskatoon came out of nowhere to remind me.

I'm so honored so rarely does he post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4064299&mesg_id=4064397

[bloom]

29. I think it seems funny

that some people are more upset with people throwing out ideas around here than they are with people throwing ideas out at CNN or FOX or something.

I think right-wing nonsense should be censored and removed.

I object to left-wing ideas being removed that are based on precedents. Precedents are the basis of much speculation after all.

It might just be a matter of reminding people about things like Gladio. A lot of things like that don't get much press over here - and it makes sense to recall things that could add context to events.

[The Magistrate]

32. There Is Nothing Particularly Left Wing, Ma'am

About speculations that governments, particularly the U.S. government, clandestinely attacks their own citizens. That is a staple of the reactionary right, and militia, Christian Identity, ands other reactionary venues, are full of the stuff....

[noiretextatique]

35. are you american?

because there is ample evidence that the american government has done terrible things to its own citizens. not too mention ample evidence of an illegal war, which is doing terrible things to american soldiers.

[The Magistrate]

36. My Residence, Ma'am, Is In Chicago

My place of birth the Hoosier desert of Indianapolis....

[noiretextatique]

37. thanks...wasn't sure.

then you know what i'm talking about.

[The Magistrate]

41. Certainly, Ma'am

In the modern era, from the syphilis "experiments" to experimental exposure of soldiers to fall-out in atomic tests, there is a sorry record. My view of government is pretty similar to the anarchist "Government is a gang of men who do violence to the rest of us." Nonetheless, it is necessary, in my view, to examine the particulars of individual cases, and just as persons with a police record may well be innocent of some particular present charge, so often have governments not done some particular thing they are currently being accused of because the accusations sits well with someone's view of the world, or political purposes.

[noiretextatique]

44. i agree...however, since the government tends to coverup things

like experiments and tests...it's rather difficult to examine the particulars of individual cases. unfortunately, we probably won't know much about bush, inc until after they are booted out of office.

[Tinoire]

53. Decades after... We're still finding out things from the Truman admin!

And so many things will never come to light- unless people force them to the light.

[The Magistrate]

54. What Do You Have Against Old Harry, Ma'am?

He was a pretty good Democrat, in my view....

[Tinoire]

62. Nothing specifically against him... just the principle that it can take a

very long time to find out what really happened, if we ever even do.

I think http://www.historychannel.com/speeches/archive/speech_293.html">Arthur Sylvester said it best:

"Look, if you think any American official is going to tell you the truth, then you're stupid. Did you hear that? - stupid."

Arthur Sylvester, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs, 1965

[Frederik]

180. How 'bout Hirsohima and Nagasaki

to show the Russian how big our collective penis was.

Eisenhower was against using the bomb on the Japanese.

[seemslikeadream]

189. Oh Frederik how petty of you

a couple of little bombs. I heard it really wasn't all that bad.

The way things are going today I better post this :sarcasm:

[bloom]

48. The right wing has their peculiar reactionary groups

that is true. And it is possible that there could be occasions that both sides end up being on the same side because both sides have a proclivity to distrust the government.

For instance - I have seen people on both sides argue that the government should not be putting Thimerosal in vaccines. It tends to be the smug people in the middle who want there to be 100% absolute proof that Thimerosal is causing 10's of thousands of cases of autism a year before they will back the idea.

Maybe it is the people in the middle who are the most conservative and who fight the hardest against holding the government accountable. Because there is not 100% proof.

I'll go with reasonable doubt, myself.

[nashville_brook]

65. so all speculation about 7/7 is right-wing?

[Moochy]

114. Reactionary Claptrap

... and obviously the work of hate-filled disruptors right? Where's that loyalty oath sign-up again?

:sarcasm:

[JackRiddler]

80. Gee, what about those historians?

I wish those goddamn historians would shut up already with their nutball ideas about Gleiwitz, the Reichstag fire, "Remember the Maine," the Gulf of Tonkin incident, Operation Northwoods, Crassus and Nero, Gladio, P-2, the Downing Street Minutes Plan B (attack after "Iraqi casus belli,") the radiation experiments on unwitting American subjects, MK-ULTRA, COINTELPRO, the Lavon affair, the Russian apartment bombings of 1999, Guy Fawkes, Judi Bari, the anthrax mailers, and all these other strictly insane, never-could-happen false-flag plots by governments committed on their own people.

[nashville_brook]

64. northwoods, cointelpro, PNAC

[screembloodymurder]

45. Glad I'm not the only one who sees the hypocrisy of the current situation

Speculation is OK as long as it comes from a legitimate source. Therefore, only the rich and powerful can speculate. The rest of us must sit mum on the sidelines awaiting their trumped up conclusions.

[arikara]

57. Me too. This hippocritical little crackdown on what they are calling

"conspiracy theory" is really bizarre. What's left then? The "truth" as spouted by bush and blair and shrieked out legitimately through Faux and CNN?

It can be proven that everything that they've said so far has turned out to be lies. That in itself should be taken into consideration when some of us disbelieve what they are saying now.

[dzika]

66. Where is this "crackdown" on alternate ideas coming from?

I'm waiting for AP to tell me my opinion because dissent is allowed with an approved source.

[Sterling]

84. It has gone on far too long on this site

It really has taken the wind out of my sails to work within the party to see this kind of thing happen on this site. This site is my most direct connection with the party and to see people in positions of authority ridicule people for speculating on such things is depressing.

If it was not happening I would still be donating a large part of my income to party causes. To see a select powerful few holding back the rest of us from open discourse makes me lose respect for the party and those towing the party line which these days is clearly going along to get a long with the neocon.

[screembloodymurder]

99. Ditto! I too have quit donating to the party and for precisely the same

reason. If I wanted a party of clapping seals I'd vote for Rush.

[Sterling]

109. I would have emptied my bank account for a candidate

who addressed these issues in good faith.

[TheGoodCitizen]

176. Mega Dittos ....dare I say!

[crispini]

201. You're kidding right?

You wrote, "It really has taken the wind out of my sails to work within the party to see this kind of thing happen on this site. This site is my most direct connection with the party and to see people in positions of authority ridicule people for speculating on such things is depressing."

Um, reality check here: DU has Nothing. Whatsoever. To Do. Officially. With. The Democratic Party.

And the people "in positions of authority" here are NOT people "in positions of authority" in the Democratic party.

[seemslikeadream]

211. How do you know that?

And the people "in positions of authority" here are NOT people "in positions of authority" in the Democratic party.

[crispini]

218. From the DU About page.

"While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole."

[nashville_brook]

236. i feel the same way

[helderheid]

56. you're spot on

[alittlelark]

67. This thread has been fascinating to read..

Personally I think that it is quite a COINCIDENCE that there was a training exercise going on in London simulating multiple bombs gong off at the same time in the underground AT PRECISELY THE SAME TIME that the bombs went off.
file:///private/tmp/504/TemporaryItems/AOLTemp.html

Rather similar to the COINCIDENCE that training exercises simulating PLANES HITTING TALL BUILDINGS that were going on on 9-11.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/cia-simulation.htm

Too many coincidences for my taste.
Also a coincidence that the same few people immediately enter a thread dealing with COINCIDENCES.

[nashville_brook]

68. yeah, if folks think the info coming out on 7/7 isn't worthy, why spend

the time in argument? there's plenty of other threads to read and participate in that would be a better use of time, no?

and don't forget that Blair is stopping an investigation -- just like Bush.

[helderheid]

69. 2 countries, 2 attacks, 2 drills the same day, both resisting an

investigation. Right. Nothing to see here.

[alittlelark]

77. That's right Ma'am.... move along now

nothing to see here.....:sarcasm:

[havocmom]

82. So, is it safe to discus the Theory of Relativity yet?

All things being relative and all. ;)

[Sterling]

86. Of course "Sir", everything is double plus good!!!!!

Just go back to sleep.

[alittlelark]

91. I slept for 37 years..... I've been awake only only 3.

I don't think I'll ever go back to sleep.:patriot:

[Tinoire]

93. It was the same thing with 9-11 and PNAC

How many times do people have to hit themselves on the head waaaaay AFTER the fact because they refused to believe anything if it wasn't printed in the MSM?

It is because of these times we live in that I now believe all the Germans, who despite the truckloads of people disappearing and smoke coming from work camp chimneys, say "we didn't know". How could they have known? It wasn't published in their MSM and our Ministry of Propaganda isn't publishing any truth either.

====

1,500 suicidal sheep leap of a cliff in Turkey

In the end, 450 dead animals lay on top of one another in a billowy white pile, the Aksam newspaper said. Those who jumped later were saved as the pile got higher, cushioning the fall.

First one sheep jumped to its death. Then stunned Turkish shepherds, who had left the herd to graze while they had breakfast, watched as nearly 1,500 others followed, each leaping off the same cliff, Turkish media reported Friday.

(snip)

In the end, 450 dead animals lay on top of one another in a billowy white pile, the Aksam newspaper said. Those who jumped later were saved as the pile got higher and the fall more cushioned, Aksam reported.

(snip)



http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/09/content_458724.htm

[alittlelark]

95. Recommend Minstrel Boys thread if you haven't yet!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4071709

Minstrel Boy is spot-on and this thread needs to go waaay up.

Gina

[Tinoire]

101. I have. Thanks n/t

[ROH]

106. Recommended (n/t)

[havocmom]

100. Have I mentioned you are one of my heros?

Gads, what a great mind!

[Octafish]

119. Mine, too.

Tinoire is tops. And he's spot-on regarding what's happening.

You wouldn't believe some of the DUers who dropped all talk about Selection 2000 to "unite behind the President."

Bush was a crook then. Today, he's a war criminal.

[Tinoire]

129. Both of you

Thank you. You really make me blush. but to tell you honestly, it does my tired heart good because sometimes you wonder if you haven't gone nuts... if now that all the things you were trying to warn about have come pass, this isn't a nightmare; those horrible things can't possibly have come true.

I am really humbled by both of your comments and feeling not quite worthy because of the high esteem in which I hold you both but thank you. A deep thank you especially today when we must bite our tongues and keep certain things inside because, well, don't want the New York Times (of all the effing WMD-lie-pushing papers) to be able to accuse us of pushing conspiracy theories- the same truths they refuse to report.

Thank you. You just made it a good Monday!

[Octafish]

162. "Conspiracy Theory" got me where I am today.

Way back when, I worked at a newspaper. While there, I pointed out some logical fallacies regarding the Warren Commission. Then I was on to the BCCI thing and what that meant in terms of international terrorism, money laundering and government corruption.

Good thing I hadn't heard about the connection of BCCI to the Pakistani bomb. Anyway, for my observations I was branded a "Conspiracy Theorist."

Gee. That was odd, coming from fellow reporters. My partner and I (I was the junior partner) had just earned a major award for a series of articles on ahow a local Savings and Loan was corrupted and looted. It was a local S&L, but it cost U.S. taxpayers about $92 million, part of the $1.4 to $2 trillion S&L bailout -- about half of that money was stolen outright. The rest is in interest payments for the Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Company bailout.

I was dating a woman, startingly similar in beauty to Jacqueline Kennedy Onasis, I then must've believed. We were about to get engaged when I took her on a company picnic.

My team had just won the touch football match that traditionally left everyone sore for a week. After the game, as we sat down to eat, one of my colleagues from the sports department said on my team's victory: "Must've been a conspiracy." A couple of the, um, less read members of the staff laughed.

My girlfriend never looked at me the same way. We broke up a few weeks later. She said to me: "You know more about conspiracies than you do my own family." She was right. I'd forgotten her niece's name a couple weeks earlier.

It was the most fortuitous thing. I ended up meeting my wife a few years later.

Nevertheless, it IS hard to live through this stuff. Especially feeling outnumbered in the regular world by those who don't know what's going on, plus the brainwashed mass of Flush Limpnut listeners.

Thus, we've got to stick together to make it possible for the Truth to come out. And the Truth is what these evil turds and slugs fear most. and that is why you and all good DUers mean the world to me.

[Minstrel Boy]

174. wonderful post, Octafish

Sorry to hear the illiterati ruined it for you with the Jackie O double, and happy it turned out for the best.

:toast:

[Just Me]

178. Thanks.

Thanks for sharing that. Brings me comfort. Knowledge can be an aweful burden, at times. Finding a way to deliver it is a great, often painful challenge.

[alittlelark]

102. An analogy I had not even contemplated.....

You have a fascinating mind.

[Tinoire]

132. Thanks

That's high praise but thanks.

And yes... I'm afraid we're REALLY going to have to go through all this Nazi Fascist BULLSHIT again... because too many people haven't learned. Nice sig line

[Name removed]

229. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

255. Stickdog!

Check this out! :hi: Not bad for two lowly CTs!

Text

I've finished saving images of several dozens of news pages about this story.

The Democratic Underground threads posted earlier were an absolute goldmine, and I thank 93Questions for posting them. I can't believe how much stuff I found there, my head is swimming. Most of the research done on those two threads seemed to be by two posters, StickDog and Tinoire ... they put the journalistic community to shame!

Some of the things I found there that did not turn up in this thread:

A story from March 8 telling how Nick Berg had gone missing. In it: " He usually called home once a day and e-mailed several times; Michael Berg is his business manager, and they needed to stay in touch."

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/politics/8621773.htm

Nick Berg didn't sign a privacy waiver, *and* he was taking photos from the Abu Ghraib tower.

"26-year-old Nick Berg didn't sign a privacy waiver when he went over there."

http://kyw.com/Local%20News/local_story_128173423.html

"I am taking photos - where allowed. It's actually pretty sad - I
just got off one of two 320 meter monster towers in Abu Gharib (also home to the main political prison) ... I'll definitely share some of these pix with you and others next time I'm in the area"

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tower-pro/message/19463

Remember how they said Berg refused to take a plane from Baghdad airport .. or he was afraid to or whatever? That's quite an odd thing to say ... considering there is no civil aviation out of Baghdad airport until July!

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-04-13-iraq-airports_x.htm

An article titled, "FBI Told Police to Hold Berg"

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1526618,00.html

A mainstream news journalist can't seem to find any records for Prometheus Towers. Hmmm. Wonder why that is.

http://www.dailylocal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11650247&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id=17782&rfi=6

Finally, just another odd "Forrest Gump" type connection, Nick Berg appears yet again in connection with one of the War on Terror's key events strangely enough : and the very earliest online mention of Nick Berg I have yet seen (from September 15th 2001):

" I called many of my friends to make sure their familiers were ok. The first one i called was Nick Berg, whose grandfather helped build the Towers."

http://www.triggerfinger.blogspot.com/2001_09_09_triggerfinger_archive.html

[emcguffie]

112. You expressed just what I was thinking. Have been thinking.

Those in Germany who thought, believed, or would say out loud what was happening to their Jewish neighbors and friends, or their gay, or Catholic, or Gypsy neighbors and friends, were most likely labelled "conspiracy theorists". After all, it does really challenge everything you have ever believed in -- and I remember my dead father telling me as a child that "the government" would never do anything to hurt me; it only makes sure other people don't do such things -- to decide that your own government could possibly be guilty of participating in, or just allowing, some terrible act that would kill many innocent people. You have to take a personal risk there, to let that possibility come in; you have to risk your sanity, or your intelligence, or the way you identify yourself -- intelligent, discriminating, with it. But only such people have uncovered all the nasties done to us. It is so much easier to deny, deny, deny. Deny that your country could... deny that your government could... deny that your side could.

I have gone there now. It is hard for me to accept that FDR may have done it. But there is a pattern there, for anyone who cares to look.

Tonkin (what was it? Bay? Gulf? What?) The Main (in the Spanish-American War, for our youthful participants)? The dead Iraqi babies? Not to mention the Bundesbag (sp???? sorry about my German), but Hitler did that, we didn't.

I find it oh, so telling that he used the very same tactic. If we had not won the war, however, we would still believe that terrorists perpetrated that act of -- terrorism. would we not?

[Tinoire]

139. It is hard to accept. Distasteful too

but what choice do we have? Bury our heads in the sand as everything is destroyed around us or confront the situation to fight it.

You can't contront a situation you refuse to face! And you certainly can't fight it when you don't even know what you're fighting!

It is maddening indeed, isn't it?

Welcome to DU :toast:

Talking about Tonkin... I posted this earlier today, maybe even in this thread (not sure) but check this out... Arthur Sylvester on the lies of Tonkin

http://www.historychannel.com/speeches/archive/speech_293.html

& you have to live this quote, by the same man...

"Look, if you think any American official is going to tell you the truth, then you're stupid. Did you hear that? - stupid."

Arthur Sylvester, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs, 1965

Peace

[bloom]

200. "these times we live in... "we didn't know"

Maybe some of us are more determined than others not to be taken for a ride.

I would rather mistrust the government and be wrong than to go along with everything and be right. (But I don't think that those going along are right...).

[theearthisround]

220. I saw a documentary with a lady who was in Nazi germany, she knew theTruth

She knew the truth about the Nazi's and she understood that the burning of the Reichtag was an inside job. She described how late at night she would sneak and climb up the sides of buildings and post little posters saying "Hitler Burned the Reichstag!". It was fascinating to hear her story!
If anyones interested the documentary was called "Wilhelm Reich: Viva, Little Man".

[arikara]

136. Oh, but don't spend any time musing that it is all too convenient

or you might be told to shut up... JUST SHUT UP!

I'm feeling more than a little miffed at some of the prevailing attitudes around here.

[alittlelark]

164. Those attitudes need to be changed.....

This is the DEMOCRATIC underground. As I go through this thread I find 2-3 posters saying "Conspiracy whackos"!!!!

I find 40+ saying "let's look into this".

The majority should prevail.

PS - this thread w/ 27 or so recommendations is still not on the Greatest list.

[Sterling]

170. polls on topics like this show

most DUers are aware that there is a load of funny stuff going on with our gov these days. Maybe some of these DUers could be mods some day?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. I believe in cui bono? (Who benefits?)

Oddly enough, the neo-cons AND the "terrorists" benefit. Which tends to lead me to the conclusion that there is a symbiotic relationship between the two.

:tinfoilhat:



Ed: clarity

[ROH]

72. "Cui bono?" is a very important point! (n/t)

[Minstrel Boy]

90. symbiotic relationship

Absolutely. That's why the question "what is al Qaeda?" is critical. Its foot soldiers are the usual patsies and useful idiots, but the organization and its leadership have a very ambiguous history.

Things like:

the CIA-ISI-al Qaeda axis;
al Qaeda's being contracted by MI6 to assassinate Qaddafi in 1996;
the Dubai CIA station chief meeting bin Laden in a Dubai hospital before 9/11 (as leaked by French intelligence);
al Qaeda jihadists fighting in Bosnia on the side of NATO;
the ISI chief's wiring money to Atta through al Qaeda's Omar Saeed Sheikh;
the same chief being in Washington meeting with senior intel officials for 10 days before and after the 9/11 attacks;
bin Laden's escape from Tora Bora (special forces reported having been stood down and watched helicopters arrive from Pakistan and ferry his company out);
his continued evasion of capture, and the acquiesence of the Bush administration to Pakistan's sovereignty;
the US withdrawing troops from Saudi Arabia, as per bin Laden's demand.

Call me crazy, but it reads to me like some crazy shit quid pro quo being played out.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

97. It's called "bidness." They're laying out the smorgasbord.

Enjoy your shit sandwich.

[stickdog]

234. It's a lot deeper than even that.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/190144.asp?cp1=1

Bin Laden comes home to roost

His CIA ties are only the beginning of a woeful story

By Michael Moran, MSNBC

NEW YORK, Aug. 24, 1998 — At the CIA, it happens often enough to have a code name: Blowback. Simply defined, this is the term that describes an agent, an operative or an operation that has turned on its creators. Osama bin Laden, our new public enemy Number 1, is the personification of blowback. And the fact that he is viewed as a hero by millions in the Islamic world proves again the old adage: Reap what you sow.

BEFORE YOU CLICK on my face and call me naive, let me concede some points. Yes, the West needed Josef Stalin to defeat Hitler. Yes, there were times during the Cold War when supporting one villain (Cambodia’s Lon Nol, for instance) would have been better than the alternative (Pol Pot). So yes, there are times when any nation must hold its nose and shake hands with the devil for the long-term good of the planet. But just as surely, there are times when the United States, faced with such moral dilemmas, should have resisted the temptation to act. Arming a multi-national coalition of Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 1980s - well after the destruction of the Marine barracks in Beirut or the hijacking of TWA Flight 847 - was one of those times.

As anyone who has bothered to read this far certainly knows by now, bin Laden is the heir to Saudi construction fortune who, at least since the early 1990s, has used that money to finance countless attacks on U.S. interests and those of its Arab allies around the world.As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar - the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war. What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.

By no means was Osama bin Laden the leader of Afghanistan’s mujahedeen. His money gave him undue prominence in the Afghan struggle, but the vast majority of those who fought and died for Afghanistan’s freedom - like the Taliban regime that now holds sway over most of that tortured nation - were Afghan nationals. Yet the CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan made famous by Rudyard Kipling, found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to “read” than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the “reliable” partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.

[bin.dare]

88. bless your heart, MM ...

... taking the time to argue with pompous blowhards, insufferable know-it-alls, who demand proof before any discussion can even begin. Jeez. The arguments raised against you are simultaneously saddening and vexing to me, I admire your patience.

To the mods, the censorship enacted by DU over the last few days will be the death of DU soon enough.

[helderheid]

94. recommended

[Pepperbelly]

121. This is the key to the London bombings. This should be a mantra.

The cops have tons of places to look ... the omnipresent video cameras, forensics, witnesses, everything. They know how to do this.

What they should do is quite simple ...

Hunt criminals, not nouns.

There is no reason to weave anything thing around this of yet. They should work the case and not get caught up in theoreticals.

[shiva2999]

125. tThe "conspiracy theorist" ad hominem

"liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war." ~ Karl Rove

Listen to Karl. He knows what he's talking about.

We are in a hot war ladies and germs.

The war between good and evil a.k.a. the war between the left and the right.

The oldest war there is.

And Karl Rove, for all his cleverness in attempting to pre frame the debate for the London bombings has also wittingly or unwittingly let the cat out of the bag. After all, what would ever give you the impression he wouldn't approach the "war against liberalism" in the same way he approaches the "war on terror"?

The eternal political dynamic is this...

The left wants to rehabilitate the right.

The right wants to kill the left.

Why?

Because the left stands for courage and generosity which is a living rebuke to the right which stands for fear and greed.

The right is going to war. With the human race. And idiot cowards like Kos and his fellow travellers who assume the heroic Joe Lieberman stance of obtuse reasonableness embellished with manipulative stylistic flourishes and bare faced logical fallacies are doing their damndest to sell us out IMO.

Anyone who's done ANY reading of history will know that behind public facades lie private motivations. To deny it is absurd.

And history is replete with "conspiracies" in the pursuit of power, fortune and personal interest.

The murder of Julius Caesar is one. The murder of Caligula is another. I mean really guys, hasn't anyone ever heard of the term "military coup". C'mon.

History marches on fellows.

Don't deny your God given intelligence.

Don't consign yourself to history as part of a group who's most bitter memory will be their own personal Alec Guiness moment where they looked up at the bridge from the detonator in the riverbed and said "My God, what have I done?"

[alittlelark]

127. Wow - great post! Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Frederik]

135. Splendid post, shiva

and welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Minstrel Boy]

137. "There is a war between the ones who say there is a war

and the ones who say there isn't." - Leonard Cohen

Thanks, great post.

You cannot stand what I've become,
you much prefer the gentleman I was before.
I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control,
I didn't even know there was a war.

Why don't you come on back to the war, don't be a tourist.
Why don't you come on back to the war, before it hurts us.
Why don't you come on back to the war, let's all get nervous.

[shiva2999]

156. Thanks for the welcome guys

Maybe we should consider what one of the great minds of all time has to say on the subject...

Macbeth act 4, sc 1.

First Witch
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.

Second Witch
Thrice and once the hedge-pig whined.

Third Witch
Harpier cries 'Tis time, 'tis time.

First Witch
Round about the cauldron go;
In the poison'd entrails throw.
Toad, that under cold stone
Days and nights has thirty-one
Swelter'd venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i' the charmed pot.

ALL
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.

Second Witch
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the cauldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and owlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

ALL
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

Third Witch
Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,
Witches' mummy, maw and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark,
Root of hemlock digg'd i' the dark,
Liver of blaspheming Jew,
Gall of goat, and slips of yew
Silver'd in the moon's eclipse,
Nose of Turk and Tartar's lips,
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
For the ingredients of our cauldron.

ALL
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

Second Witch
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

Enter HECATE to the other three Witches

HECATE
O well done! I commend your pains;
And every one shall share i' the gains;
And now about the cauldron sing,
Live elves and fairies in a ring,
Enchanting all that you put in.

HECATE retires

Second Witch
By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks!

Enter MACBETH

[shance]

193. Hear, Hear Shiva***and Tinoire, Minstrel Boy, Octafish, etc....

to all of you that search for the truth and tell it.

Thank you for such a wonderful post Shiva***wonderful words that I need to hear tonight.

Thanks to all of you for being such important, caring contributors here at DU and elsewhere,

and as Tiny Tim says, God Bless us everyone***

[ROH]

128. This thread is not showing now on the Greatest page even though it has 23

recommendations. Why?

[alittlelark]

141. I was just coming here to saw the same thing!

WHY?????

[ROH]

146. It's still not showing on the Greatest page after 27 recommendations ...

it should be third in the Most Popular threads. Why isn't it showing up?

[alittlelark]

151. I do not know... but I posted in GD about it not showing up

the thread appears in GD but not on the 'Latest'..........



Very creepy.

[Beam Me Up]

163. Amazing, isn't it?

Same thing happened to a thread re Sibel Edmonds a few months back. I forget how many nominations it had, way over 20. Then the thread itself was moved to the 9/11 forum and it could no longer be nominated. This was well before it was 24 hours old.

[bloom]

208. "a thread re Sibel Edmonds"

That is darn ridiculous.

[Sterling]

167. I don't know why this goes on.

I don't see why it goes on while it is so obvious that DUers see through it. It is just another sign of this wacky douple plus good world we all live in now.

[ROH]

172. It is now the Most Popular thread with 34 votes,

or rather it should be showing as the Most Popular thread ... as the highest thread actually shown on the Greatest Page has 33 votes.

[alittlelark]

209. I have a thread discussing that.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4076468

[southlandshari]

177. Explanation posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4076468&mesg_id=4076803

[arikara]

147. You're right...

It should be at number 4 but has disappeared from the Greatest page. I suppose for the same reason that "Peter Power interviewed last night on CBC (Re: London bombing)" was moved into the Sept 11 forum to fizzle away even though it doesn't relate to Sept 11?

They are calling it CT, I guess an interview on CBC doesn't count.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x47252

[alittlelark]

215. I started a thread on the issue

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4076468

[Tinoire]

165. That's. the. most. disappointing. thing. I've. seen. in. a. long. time.

That just too disappointing...

1. This during the same week that everyone "reveres" Andy Stephenson who fought to have EVERY VOTE COUNTED.

2. Surely in order to fight for democracy, we should first respect it, whether we like the results or not, otherwise, what the hell are we fighting for?

3. What's the sense of hammering away at Bush if we toss the votes when WE don't like the results.

:very sad and disappointed:

driving home now

:very sad and disappointed:

[ROH]

169. Very important comparison

Count every vote!

[Frederik]

133. Great post, MB

I concur 100%.

[Tinoire]

140. Whoops... I forgot to say as much. Great job MB! Very good post! n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

145. And I forgot to

:hug: Tinoire

It's always great to see you.

[Tinoire]

157. Same here

:hug:

I'm glad to know that matter what happens, I'll always be able to find you through your blog.

Thank you for your thousands of valuable posts throughout these years. I learned so much from you. I don't have the best fuzzies about certain things right now so just wanted to tell you that in public.

[evolvenow]

142. Why, during the G8, would a drill be run AND the terror alert LOWERED?

Why, out of all of the cameras working in the entire transit system, was the camera NOT ON, on the bus that exploded.


Why was there a BBC broadcast simunlating a terror attack, very similar to what really ended up happening, air the same day as OPERATION Transit SAFE?

I am asking WHY, and anyone with a pulse, aware of the MASSIVE AMOUNT OF MURDER HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, should DAMN well be asking WHYand who is doing all of the killing and for what reasons.

If a progressive blog is not a place to ask questions and discuss, then there is something behind the reasons for OUTRAGEOUS censorship.


I will never stop ASKING questions, so long as there is so much relentless and senseless horror foisted on innocent people.

Who can follow the money related to this event? Thanks to everyone that cares about the value of life in search of the TRUTH.

Here are some articles that raise questions:

xercise Atlantic Blue: 7/7 Rehearsal?

from the Guardian:


Anti-terror drill revealed soft targets in London

"A massive anti-terror exercise carried out last April to find out how safe London's transport systems were from attack raised concern over the vulnerability of passengers, The Observer can reveal.

Washington sources have revealed that the biggest transatlantic counter-terrorism exercise since 9/11 - which included 'bombs' being placed on buses and explosives left on the London underground - raised fears over the vulnerability of 'soft targets' in the capital.

The anti-terror drill, codenamed Exercise Atlantic Blue, involved 10,000 personnel in the UK and 2,500 in the UK. It was billed as the biggest test of the anti-terror defences of both the UK and the US and was designed to improve security. The exercise featured simulated explosive, biological and chemical attacks and, in the case of London, concentrated on testing security weaknesses in the transport system."


Another drill...

"...A full-scale mock attack was staged in September 2003 to give emergency services the chance to rehearse: lessons learnt from it, including the need for specially adapted trolleys to use in rescuing passengers from narrow tunnels, were put into place last week. Firefighters have also been trained to drive tube trains, so that if a driver were killed they would be able to move a train to the safety of a platform; the trains hit last week were too badly disabled to be moved..."

more...
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1525247,00.html

--UPDATE--

From Continuity Forum:
In a March 17, 2005 interview Home Office Minister Hazel Blears was asked:

Question: "What happens if a terrorist incident occurs during the exercise?"

Answer: "In the event of a major incident of any sort a decision would be taken to halt the exercise. There will be no impact on the level of policing or security within London during the week of the exercise."
http://www.continuityforum.org/news/atlanticblue
--------------------------------------------------
"Police and intelligence agents are investigating the theory that a gang of white "mercenary terrorists" was hired by al-Qa'ida to carry out last week's devastating attacks on London.

The Independent on Sunday can reveal today that investigations into the bombings of three Tube trains and a bus, which left at least 49 people dead, are focusing on the possibility that criminal gangs were paid to mount the worst atrocities in British history."

"The theory was given credence by the fact that the security services had no advance warnings, suggesting that the bombers were not known extremists. Police and intelligence agencies admitted yesterday they were caught off guard."

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298105.ec...

Does this indicate there is some evidence suggesting the bombers were white caucasians? Of course it could be al-qaida paying them.

The explosive devises were "sophisticated".


http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298105.ece


------------------------------------
Have you seen?



 Here is an eery transcript from the BBC about a similar attack... Very War of the Worlds type broadcast but creepy, and look at the timing: drill took place same day as Operation Transit SAFE, as Culhavoc pointed out.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/programmes/pano...


NB: THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A TRANSCRIPTION UNIT RECORDING AND
NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT: BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF MIS-
HEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY, IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL
SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS ACCURACY.
........................................................................

PANORAMA

LONDON UNDER ATTACK
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 16:05:04
........................................................................

The events in this programme are fictional
Everything else is fact



KIRSTY: This is BBC News on Tuesday May 25th, it's 8 o'clock – the headlines. The American Secretary
of State is due to arrive shortly at Heathrow Airport beginning his official visit to the UK.

GAVIN ESLER: What you are about to see is series of terrorist attacks.

KIRSTY: The Bank of England is due to revue interest rates this afternoon. Experts are saying they could
rise.

ESLER: This scenario is well researched but fictional.

KIRSTY: And police in London are on extra alert for the this evening's European Champions League Cup
Match between Arsenal and the Turkish side Galatasaray. We're just receiving news of an explosion in the
London underground near Hyde Park, this has not yet been confirmed by the police.

Tues May 25 08:27
BREAKING NEWS
There has been a second explosion in the underground, this time close to Oxford Circus. Both explosions
appear to have occurred on the trains as they were moving. We've got on further details at this stage but we
will bring you more information on this as soon as we get it.

ESLER: This is the kind of terrorist attack the government repeatedly says is going to happen.

November 2002
Tony Blair Prime Minister
Would Al-Qaeda buy weapons of mass destruction if it could? Certainly. Would it use such weapons?
Definitely.

June 2003 (Actor's voice)
Eliza Manningham-Buller
Director General MI5
We are faced with the realistic possibility of some form of unconventional attack.

December 2003
David Veness
Assistant Commissione, Metropolitan Police
We need to confront murder on a mass scale.

(more)
--------------

Culhavoc (11 posts)
Sun Jul-10-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
The US companion drill on May 16th, 2004

In the early morning hours of May 16, OEM hosted Operation Transit SAFE, the City's first interagency subway exercise, at lower Manhattan's Bowling Green subway station. Inspired by the Madrid bombings of March 2004, the four-hour drill was designed to test the City's response to a terrorist attack in the subway.

Sponsored by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Office for Domestic Preparedness (ODP), Transit SAFE involved more than 500 emergency responders and 400 NYPD recruits and FDNY probationary firefighters posing as "victims" and "evacuees."
http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/html/events/2004.05.16_transitsafe.html

Although the US/NYC drill and the London drill both occur on May 16th, 2004, there are no British agencies in the list of participants of Operation Transit SAFE.

-Culhavoc



deconstructing a false-flag operation http://culhavoc.blogsome.com


 

Culhavoc (11 posts)
Sun Jul-10-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #14



26. May 16th, 2004 BBC PSY-OP???

Should the "drill" found in the BBC transcript be categorized as a "PSY-OP"?

*for anyone that missed it, this "drill/psyop" took place on the same day as Operation Transit SAFE.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anarchy1999]

160. Lots of love coming your way and we have lots of tin foil stored up.

Our home is wallpapered in tin foil..

What can we all do? You don't need help, just lots of us tin foilers.

Peace.

[Al-CIAda]

166. Rec'd. n/t

[shiva2999]

190. Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum

The Bushco gang are not Republicans or conservatives.

They are pirates.

Though they fly a flag they owe allegiance to no one but themselves.

Rape, murder and pillage are their creed.

Death and destruction their calling card.

"Ooo, but shiva, it's irresponsible to suggest that Bushco could have pulled this off! Where's your evidence?"

Wake up and grow a pair.

[mikita]

168. thank you for being pissed and articulate at the same time

something I don't manage to do very well. But I have been PISSED at what's gone on here. And I've watched threads disappear before my eyes in the mother of all CT forums.

THANK you....and :hug:

[Octafish]

171. Gore Vidal said: "Conspiracy ... now shorthand for unspeakable truth."

"Apparently, ‘conspiracy stuff’ is now shorthand for unspeakable truth" -- Gore Vidal, The Observer, 10/27/02

Remember how The New York Times, Los Angeles Times and Washington Post ripped into Gary Webb? He, too, told the truth.

[NuttyFluffers]

232. i like that. how i love gore vidal.

i think i'll start saying that now as a reply. just for kicks. conspiracy theorist? no, speaker of unspeakable truths, instead. suck on that. because i'm double plus ungood.
O8) :evilgrin:

[Endangered Specie]

179. I absolutely cannot believe the disrespect shown to the moderators

in this thread and in others. These guys have a hard, thankless job.

CTers should be quite considerate to the mods/admins around here, if this were run like Kos... well, lets just say the admin are quite tolerant about what is allowed on this board (just compare this place to others), and that in the end is a good thing :)

[Sterling]

181. if this were run like Kos

I would gladly find a new site and so would about 75% of the people who have been here for the last 4-5 years. Not very many of us are here because we like to be told what to think or talk about.

If you are cool with the manipulation of discussion against the will of the people on the board that is fine for you, and you can remain silent. I don't think anyone is disrespecting mods, I think people would just like to see more respect from some mods which we can't really even name because who knows which mod does what. It is all so cloak and dagger these days.

[Beam Me Up]

183. As far as I'm concerned, calling me a CTer is like calling me by the N

word. Do you get my drift?

Edit to add for further clarity: In other words, I don't regard it as the least bit respectful of my intellectual capacity. Saying cart blanch "I don't believe in conspiracy theories" is intellectual laziness and psychological denial. Worse, it is a misdirection of the intent -- which is to QUESTION, especially when we are clearly lied to day in and day out by those who are charged with the most precious obligations our Constitution prescribes.

[Sterling]

188. Anything said in a condescending way sounds that way.

Democrat sounds that way when a wing nut says it. "Sir" or "Ma'am" sounds that way in the right context.

[Endangered Specie]

196. " Conspiracy Theorist" (CT)...

is a term I use, to describe people who generally have a worldview that involves a inordinate number of rather far out, global conspiracy/new world order/infowars/prision planet type of super libertarian/bordering on anarchist world view. The vast majority of people who subscribe to the 9/11 MIHOP and the emerging "the govt did it" 7/7 theories, as well as many others, fit the bill.

Now if that term is offensive, well, thats just life, if you have another term to use, reply. This message board requires a bit of think skin.

[shance]

202. You love to dish ES***however your "think" skin isn't quite as "think"

as you require it to be for everyone else.

If you have a problem with ****CT's******as you so fashionably like to describe,

then shoo off somewhere else where you can use those hip, slick and cool terms you draw like a gun and be the hit of someone's elses fondue party.

[Endangered Specie]

238. In the heat of things, I mistyped and meant "thick" skin...

apologies about the confusion.


In any event, its ironic im being 'accused' of using slick/hip terms, considering what the opposition has put forth, things like "summer of truth", "whatREALLYhappened", "prisionplanet" "Criticial THinking recommended" (the pentagon .SWF, not to mention the hip rock music contianed therein), etc etc...


by the way, I love fondue.

I could go into a tirade about how I dont intend to leave, but Ill avoid that bait.

[Minstrel Boy]

205. "Conspiracy Theory Made Easy"

Something I posted on my blog a few months ago, about the selectivity with which that smear is applied:


Conspiracy Theory Made Easy

A fascinating article today entitled "Untimely Deaths in Ukraine", disputing the official explanations of "strange suicides and car crashes" in the Ukraine.

Get a load of this, and from the Los Angeles Times, no less:

The former Ukrainian interior minister, scheduled to meet in just a few hours with prosecutors to give testimony in a high-profile case of political murder, aimed a gun at his chin and fired, sending a bullet ripping through his cheek and out his upper jaw. Then he aimed it at his temple and fired again.

Suicide, government investigators ruled.

...

Zvarych, the justice minister, has expressed doubt that the former interior minister could have recovered sufficiently from the shock of the first wound to have delivered the second.

"I have certain doubts personally speaking about whether someone can pull the trigger twice in order to commit suicide," he said. "There's this threshold of pain, I think, that one would need to be able to cross in order to be able to do that, something called a 'pain syndrome,' that I think is very difficult to overcome."

Consider that Gary Webb - "the last North American career journalist," in Al Giordano's words - was also judged to have killed himself with two gunshots to the head. Consider the mainstream media was as incurious about the circumstances of his death as it had disgraced itself regarding the substance of his investigations. And consider it was the LA Times which played the point in Webb's character assassination, even in his obituary.

My purpose isn't to rehash speculation about Webb's death, but to underscore the selective speculation of the American press.

Imagine if, in the space of five years, figures of the stature of John F Kennedy, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr and Robert F Kennedy had been murdered anywhere else in the world.

Imagine if finely-milled anthrax had been mailed to the opponents of Hugo Chavez, just as his government introduced "El Acto Del Patriota," which promised to consolidate power in the presidency and violate the spirit and letter of the Venezuelan constitution. And imagine if the investigation led to a bioweapons lab of the Venezuelan military, and then faltered.

Imagine if "Pavlov Wellstonski," Vladimir Putin's leading opponent of the war in Chechnya, had died in a plane crash which decided control of the Duma.

Nothing is as disreputable to the American mainstream media as "conspiracy theory," but it's riddled with conspiracy theorists who apply their craft liberally to other countries. "Conspiracy theory" appears to be disreputable only in domestic practice, not in international theory. The LA Times' byline attributes the story to Kim Murphy, but it may as well be Alex Jones, with the singular exception that the suspicious deaths are made in the Ukraine, not the United States.

The Times could easily publish a story entitled "Untimely Deaths in the US." Except it would never do such a thing. So I guess it's not that easy after all.

[arikara]

231. Couldn't be more timely

Good article.

:tinfoilhat:

[Beam Me Up]

216. You do me and yourself a disservice when you lump it all together

like that.

That I find it offensive has nothing to do with the thickness of my skin, either. It is a pejorative term, is it not?

I've been reading in the arena of deep politics for many years. I personally know Peter Dale Scott, who coined the phrase.

What we are dealing with here are very serious matters, not to be taken lightly. Not to be lumped together indiscriminately. Does it take time and interest to try and filter out what is genuine information from dis-information? Of course. Perhaps you are not so interested. Very well, but own that.

Are there real, external threats to our national security? Of course there are. Are there real internal threats to our national security -- and by "internal" I mean people with agendas that are actually imbedded within the National Security State apparatus itself? I don't see how this can be argued to the contrary given what we know about the influence of Straussian philosophy. But even that is only one side, one level. That is the problem.

[bloom]

219. Maybe you wish this board was full of lifeless drones...

but the fact is that people here like to explore ideas.

And I happen to think the questioners are in the majority here.

[shance]

197. Beam, spot on. "Not believing" in conspiracy theories is simply

a laziness and lack of intellectual discipline and certainly courage.

You said it beautifully. Thanks.

[frictionlessO]

241. Yes yes Bravo!!

Your edit is outstanding!!

However Im a theorist is that acceptable?

What do we call ourselves if we dont want to be labled by those that seek to malign our good names??

but yeah again that edit is phenomenal!

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frictionlessO]

199. That is not the problem I am having anyways...

I dont care if the Magistrate disagrees with me, just as long as I am allowed to post with what he disagrees. Within stated DU boundaries of course... and if what I said isnt within those boundaries than the post gets deleted and maybe I do to.

Thats how DU works and damn it! dont ya think it works for the most part remarkably well?

Im sure you do...

However do to the purge at Kos certain other antiCTers made a bum rush at the CTers going so far as to suggest that Skinner purge us. Going so far as to cross associate our names with crap we hadnt nothing to do with, calling us names and implying that we may be freepers or government operatives. If the Magistrate or any other Mod wants to join in with those particular CT'ers that is their thang.. and it doesn't make those particular CT'ers right. However I dont beleive that was the Magistrates intentions though he does seem to have it out for people who do not wish to let others debate the words they post. I am sure he has also said as much to the particular anti-CT'ers who were essentially saying the same thing only with much more vitriol on other threads now locked.

[Name removed]

225. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Endangered Specie]

235. Well I see it differently...

I see a debate, betwen a mod and a member, a rahter spirited one but one nonetheless.

"a mod in a thread, doesnt share my opinion, why he must be bullying us! :sarcasm:"

the finer point of "being out of line" can be debated and or skewed, depending on how much of a witch hunt one desires, but none of it justifies the shit storm that has been reigned down here, lest we forget, the mods are human too.

[alittlelark]

253. ....sigh..... You are apparently part of the problem.

.... what is so odious about people exchanging ideas???? Why must those that do not accept the MSM account be thrown aside???

If I believed the MSM then Saddam flew planes into the World Trade Center and planted Anthrax and was gonna bomb the USA into the dark ages with a mushroom cloud.

Gee, I don't trust them very much.
Neither should you!



WAKE UP!!!!!!!!

[LSK]

252. are you serious???

What is the point of DU if we cannot discuss ALL POSSIBLE THEORIES. WHERE THE HELL ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GO NOW IF THIS PLACE IS CENSORED OR HALF THE THREADS ARE BRUSHED OFF AS CT???

[Endangered Specie]

254. I for one will say with dead serious certaintity

that I would not like this board to give equal time to ALL possible theories. Unless, of course, you want to allow pro communism, pro coupdetat of the US govt, stalinism, maoism, and, for a recent example, the kooky tsunami conpiracy theories, that were thankfully banned (by that, I am talking about the numerous posts/claims that the Tsunamis of 26 Dec 2004 were man made, caused by secret governemt operations in order to help promote some world order thingie).

Not to mention allowing "ALL" theories implies that conservatives and freepers would be allowed on the board, and if that happened, DU would surely never be the same.

If you feel so horribly put down, remember, the internet is a vast place...look till you find a place that you enjoy, for me, thats DU, at least during more peaceful times than this.

[frictionlessO]

186. A'yep and aren't there sooo many other concidences we can point out?

Just saying...

and boy oh boy I think I finally and completely empathize with some of those really vehement anti-CTers who say we are not to be trusted, that we are "stupid" "idiots" and try to cross associate individual DU'ers who are CT'ers with holocaust deniers and freepers and being political operatives. I totally understand why they don't trust CT'ers and thats why I no longer trust them at all for anything, I no longer believe they are here for the good of DU and the progressive movement. Just the same as they believe, one good jack for another in this giant circle jerk the last few days.

Reactionary? Oh yes, quite. Deservedly and knowingly so though.

Hey anti-CT DU'ers your abusive name calling and rovian cross associations the last few days have achieved the opposite effect you "claim" to be trying to achieve, you lost a possible friend that would do anything for his fellow progs. Not anymore, not ever again..and furthermore I went from letting it happen to made it happen because I know that people being that messed up with their compatriots and with such broad brush strokes are unworthy of trust or support. Sorry thats just all you deserve now.

Mind what Im saying here, not every anti-CT'er out there, just the ones who took it upon themselves to try and lynchmob the CT'ers this weekend at DU because of the purge at Kos.
You want to purge us or censor us to oblivion or make us restrain ourselves to the point where it doesnt matter what we are feeling in our guts. Well gee whiz, thanks for that, now it gets harder and harder to tell the progs from the cons.

As always if ya have a problem with any DU'er or their posts as to being actually detrimental to DU and the progressive movement, ALERT on them!! Please!!! You dont have to call every single DU'er out that you dont agree with, just alert on it if its that bad.
If it is then it gets locked if it isn't, than it don't... got a problem with that then write to Admin.

DU is NOT dKos... at least not yet anyway and if Skinner and Admin take this kind of a step then so be it, at least we finally know that we are not wanted here.

DU is not broke so quit trying fix us!! errmmm... it....

and uhm sorry if my words are to harsh for some but trust me they weren't even close to being as harsh as the anal rythmic tongue lashings which came spewing forth from the mouths of they that know whats best for any and all concrened.

High horses for lovers indeed.

[Beam Me Up]

194. What he said ^^^

[frictionlessO]

204. Thanks!

Sorry for the non clarity in parts.

Edited it...

[autorank]

207. Allow me to say some bad things about KOS...If you will. Thank you.

KOS is a tin horn dictator. He went through "his" little briar patch and weeded out every suggestion of a conspiracy theory regarding the British attack. Unlike DemocraticUnderground which gives a wide berth to all views and even accepts-encourages spirited debate with its Moderators, KOS is a tiny mind who cannot tolerate anything that makes him uncomfortable.

I have the distinction of being accused of posting the "worst message ever" on DKOS. A puke of some repute over there had the arrogance to say that theories of "fraudsters", those who believe that there was election fraud in 2004, are cognitive distortions of major proportions. He want on to say that DKOS needs to perform "mental hygiene" to purge these users and theories from its "sacred space." I just happened by, not that I go there often. Having both a brain and a pulse, I'm most concerned about voting rights violations in 2000 and 2004 and I'm active in doing things to correct the situation. I responded to this arrogant twit by pointing out the similarity between his concept of eliminating users and ideas for "mental hygiene" reasons and the Third Reich policy of eugenics. You should have heard them howl. Of course, my analogy was perfectly correct. They rated me "down", said I was just "awful" and then purged the message.

:rofl: What a bunch of pansy ass wanna be frat boys.

GIVE ME DU ANY DAY. And KOS aficionados, if you find this offensive allow me to welcome you to express that view. I won't say you're awful or ask that your post be purged.

LET FREEDOM RING.

[frictionlessO]

214. YYEEEEARRRRGHHH!!! Oh Hell Yes!!!! That is the spirit!!!

That is what Im talking about! You sir are an activist in word and deed I've no doubt!!

I REALLY Loved this post!! That is SOOO how I feel!!


DU is not broke!! Stop trying to purge...er fix us!!!

[autorank]

224. DU rocks and rocks hard.

Think of the great epic, "Animal House"

DU=Animal House
KOS=the Jock House

Who wins, we do, every time because we're more fun, more free and from that mix comes better damn ideas. I'll never forgive KOS for hosting election fraud "doubters, nay sayers, and quibblers" who came into our house, 2004 Election & Results Forum to attack TruthIsAll and got their asses smacked around. The "visitors" knew the rules here and tried to hang with the "home boys" but the ERD'ers out thought, out debated, and out foxed them. "Coincidentally" whenever the scholarly "visitors" showed up, some real nasty trolls accompanied them with personal slander. We kicked their asses too and got a bunch banned.

Thanks for your comments :yourock: too!

[frictionlessO]

237. Oh man I remember those days!!

TIA constantly banged them down.

I remember all the doubters of a senator standing up as well. Boxer may have single handedly saved the democratic party that day, but I "speculate".

Some of our most actvist oriented DU'ers came out of ER&D... those days of pople constantly attacking us fro working on issue that they supposedly cared about and their battle cry?? "this is the kind of thing that makes us look bad and lose elections". I cant even begin to comprehend such fear and loathing on the part of progs. Silly fuckers, theres no election to lose if they have already won due to fraudulent like activities. We lost because there is not such a thing as a verifiable transparent elction in this country anymore.

Meanwhile the "conicidences" keep piling up (more computers stolen?? nah "thats not proof" dammit and it doe snothing but only make us look bad).

Kos wants to protect his site thats fine with me, I hope he didnt kick out Susan that started gannongate, or that he at least would still welcome acknowledgement from Conyers or Boxer. them being kooky conspiracy people as well.

As long as DU allows for people to speak their piece and beats back the tide of this kind of extremism, it will remain vital.

Again, DU is not broke! Stop trying to Fix us!! lol.. I think Ive found a new rallying cry!


and no you most assuredly rock more than I!!

:yourock: :headbang: :yourock: :headbang: :yourock: :headbang: :yourock: :pals: :toast:

[Carla in Ca]

251. Autorank, Great post!

DU is a special community that we have all invested in. Thanks for all your contributions to it.:hi:

PS-Still working to get Arnold out of here. No luck yet but one of the propositions is being challenged...at least it's something!

[Catherine Vincent]

221. You rock, autorank!

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[autorank]

233. I'm so taken Cat Girl25, I have some presents for you...

KOS "Diarists" pose for a candid picture.


KOS in his get-up to command his "tiny" Kingdom.


On the other hand, DU is totally cool, no BS


It's a values thing, they wouldn't understand.

Good seeing you again :hi:

[bloom]

222. Well at least this thread has been allowed to stay.

That's nice.

And for the record - I don't like being called "Sir" or Ma'am", either.

I consider it quite condescending.

[helderheid]

230. condescending is puting it nicely

Who the hell is that guy???

[Endangered Specie]

239. Jesus Christ!...

The Magistrate uses Sir and Ma'am to EVERYONE he talks to, its called "Formal" english! :crazy:

I see the witch hunt has begun.

[not systems]

240. Especially when eviscerating them...

-

[Endangered Specie]

242. its no quirk, its a polite, formal style of addressing someone

Its old fashioned in this day in age, but its not a quirk.

But, I guess, people are going to disect his every word and turn it against him...


Shall I prepare the stake and get the fire ready? :sarcasm:

[not systems]

247. Maybe in England...

to me it looks more like linguistic dominance behavior.

[frictionlessO]

250. I've had every word split haired down to my last pube on DU.

I've had some of my posts so vividly dissected that I forget that they are even reffing my post.

I notice you keep using pagan persecutive imagery in the choice of your words, how very fitting.

[Name removed]

244. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Endangered Specie]

248. cute...

(its Sir btw, read profile)

[Name removed]

245. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frictionlessO]

246. You should have seen the shitty little witch hunt for your fellow DUers

in other threads.

Witch hunt doesnt even begin to describe the insulting insinuations that good and honest and active DUers have put up with the last few days. Im sure the Magistrates inflection is lost on you and others as it is with anyone who does not see the accompanying facial gestures. This is the nature of the internet and the cause of many a flame war. I'm also quite sure the Magistrate knows this and is probably quite used to it by now.

[nolabels]

249. You post "Help me out here"...............

Like this is one of the main points I have been trying to say ever since I came to DU. Let me just say welcome aboard. We now are getting to the point where many places see the citizens as enemy's. You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to notice anymore. Plain ole Joe's are starting to say it even. I am not worried, but I bet some people who would like to oppose the general populations wishes and needs are :-)

Btw, ignore this post, I am just using the spell checker for these personal notes to myself :crazy:

[theearthisround]

256. This reminds me of an incredible book... "Listen, Little Man!" (excerpts)

From "Listen, Little Man!" By Wilhelm Reich.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374504016/qid=1121145529/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/102-8102346-0809750?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

You have no eye, no feeling for the truly great man. His character, his suffering, his yearning, his fury, and his struggle in your behalf are foreign to you. You are unaware that man and women exist who are inherently incapable of oppressing and exploiting you, men and women who want you to be free, really and truly free. You dislike such men and women, because they are alien to your nature. They are simple and forthright; they value the truth as much as you value trickery. They see through you, not with contempt but with sorrow and the human condition; but your awareness of being seen through gives you a sense of danger. You recognize their greatness, little man, only when many other little men tell you they are great. You're afraid of great men, their closeness to life and love of life. But the great man loves you as he would love any other animal, as a living creature. He doesn't want you to suffer as you've suffered for thousands of years. He doesn't want you to talk nonsense, as you've done for thousands of years. He doesn't want you to live like a work horse, because he loves life and wants it to be free from suffering and humiliation.

You drive truly great men to despise you, to hide their heads in sorrow at you and your smallness, to avoid you, and worst of all, to pity you. If, little man, you are a psychiatrist, a Lombroso for instance, you brand the truly great man a criminal, or at least a would-be criminal, or a lunatic, because a great man does not, like you, see the aim of life in riches, in socially suitable marriages for his daughters, or in a political career, or in academic honors. So, because he is different from you, you call him a "genius" or a "nut". He, for his part, is quite willing to admit that he's not a genius but only a living creature. You call him asocial because he'd rather be alone with his thoughts than listening to inane chatter at your social functions. You say he's crazy because he spends his money on scientific research instead of investing it in stocks as you do. You dare, little man, in your abysmal degeneracy, to call a simple, straightforward man "abnormal." You measure him against yourself and your petty standards of normalcy and find him wanting. You fail to see, little man, you refuse to recognize, that you're driving this man, who loves you and wants only to help you, from all social life, because in drawing room and barroom alike, you've made it unbearable. Who made him what he is today after decades of desperate suffering? You did, with your unscrupulousness, your narrow-mindedness, your crooked thinking and your "eternal truths," which are incapable of surviving ten years of social development. Just think of all the "certainties" you've sworn by in the years between the First and Second World Wars alone. Tell me frankly, how much you reacted? Nothing, little man. A great man is cautious in his thinking, but once he commits himself to an idea, he thinks far ahead. And you, little man, treat him like a pariah when his idea proves to be sound and long-lived, and yours a piddling flash in the pan. By making him into a pariah, you sow the terrible seed of loneliness in him. Not the seed that engenders great actions but the seed of fear, the fear of being misunderstood and abused by you. For you are "the people," "public opinion," "social conscience." Have you, little man, ever stopped to think of the enormous responsibility this implies? Have you ever asked yourself (tell the truth now!) whether, from the standpoint of long-term social development, or of nature, or of great human achievement--that of a Jesus, for example-- your thinking is right or wrong? No, you never ask yourself whether your thinking is right or wrong. You ask yourself what your neighbor will say about it, or whether, if you do right, it will cost you money. That's what you ask yourself, little man; that and nothing else!

(read the first few pages on amazon's "look inside this book" the first line of this paragraph is on the last page)
You differ from a great man in only one respect: the great man was once a very little man, but he developed one important quality: he recognized the smallness and narrowness of his thoughts and actions. Under the pressure of some task which meant a great deal to him, he learned to see how his smallness, his pettiness, endangered his happiness. In other words, a great man knows when and in what way he is a little man. A little man does not know he is little and is afraid to know. He hides his pettiness and narrowness behinds illusions of strength and greatness, someone else's strength and greatness. He's proud of his great generals but not of himself. He admires an idea he has not had, not one he has had. The less he understands something, the more firmly he believes in it. And the better he understands an idea, the less he believes in it.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374504016/qid=1121145529/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/102-8102346-0809750?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Technowitch]

257. Locking due to length

Locking due to length (over 250 posts).

New thread can be found here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4077778

Please note that discussion of censorship and conspiracy is welcome, but any more moderator call-outs will be removed and that the civility rules will be strictly enforced.

Thank you,
-Technowitch
DU Moderator