I confess...I gave Bush the benefit of the doubt in the lead-up to Iraq.

[OrlandoGator]

I think that's why I'm probably more pissed off than the average pissed off Democrat. Because when they told me that Iraq had chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and the means to use them on us, I believed it. When they told me that Iraq was helping al Qaeda, I believed it.

Contrary to Rove's claim, after 9/11 I knew we were at war and that the people who attacked us needed to be hunted down. When this administration drew a connection between them and Iraq, I went along with the invasion plans.

There's a saying, "mess with the bull, you get the horns". Well, when you mess with the people who put their trust in you the most, they have the sharpest horns.

So even though the Iraq war doesn't affect me a whole lot on a personal level, I take it all very personally. Lying is not a forgivable offense in my book.

[Oversea Visitor]

1. Get mad

tell it to the people tell it loud tell it hard
Lots like you
NOW the Giant awake
The true giant the people of the United State of America

[Kahuna]

2. I'm assuming from your name that you're from FL...

Being from Florida, I can't fathom how you can believe anything that man says. He proved himself a liar and a thief during the 2000 election.

[KG]

3. 2 words of wisdom to carry with you for the rest of your life

and howard Zinn says it best: 'governments lie.'

[bunkerbuster1]

4. I confess, I gave the neocon Dems the benefit of the doubt in the lead-up.

I never fully accepted the idea that there were WMD (even as sloppily defined by Team Bush). I thought the idea that Saddam was a big terror-funder was a bit silly, given that the Saudis did far more in that department.

No, I truly believed that we had a responsibility to finish a project this country had, effectively, started in '91 with Gulf War I. I believed the worst estimates that the effect of the embargo were having on Iraqi people; furthermore, I believed that our military and intelligence communities were competent and that they'd be able to enforce stability in a hostile region (the Sunni triangle) that isn't much more populous than metro Atlanta.

I said to some skeptical colleagues at the time that I supported the invasion even though Bush was the last guy I wanted in charge of it, because I thought the people who did the real work, knew what they were doing.

So in the end, you and I find ourselves in similar places--we've been betrayed, although I've actually been more profoundly betrayed because I've learned that the system really doesn't work. And I'll be damned if I can figure a way out of this mess as we're currently configured, unfortunately.

This empire is probably doomed to be at perpetual war for the decades to come, no matter who's at the helm, until another empire knocks us down. History won't be kind to us.

I'll be dead by then, but my kid won't.

[LynnTheDem]

9. Are you aware of what that "project" in 1991 was?

Bulldozing over Iraqis and burying them alive? By the thousands?

The LIES that got us into that war in the first place?

The massive slaughter and tremendous amount of war crimes we committed?

Basra Highway massacre?

To "finish" that 1991 "project" is what the US just did to Fallujah.

[bunkerbuster1]

11. uh, no, I'm totally stupid

I think picking sides in a conflict and going to war is pleasant.

as Yoda might say, break me a fucking give, pal.

[LynnTheDem]

13. Well I'd have to agree with you, if you think with all the lies and all

horrendous war crimes that were the Gulf war that we should have "finished" it.

[bunkerbuster1]

26. We're probably not that far apart on this, actually.

When I said "our project," earlier, I meant what my country did in '91, not what I approved of. Among other things, we incited rebellion among Kurds. We continued to enforce a no-fly zone, we tried to strangle the regime with an economic blocade, all that stuff, along with the horrible violence of the military campaign.

I wasn't happy with the status quo at all, and I was -- I regret to say, given what I know now -- swayed by the argument that it'd be a net gain for the people of Iraq to just swoop in, take down the regime, and impose a puppet government.

I don't believe that any more. There were so many better options than what we did--hell, just waiting another year to get more people on our side (and yes, we could have done that, despite what the 101st Keyboarders would have you believe) could've effected a better outcome.

(Anyway, I'm probably not explaining any of this terribly well, but I just wanted to sign off with an apology for being quite so brusque with you earlier. My bad.)

[LynnTheDem]

28. I understand what you're saying.

Hey no need for apologies; families bicker now & then, and wait til you get me in one of my pissy moods! :D

:hug:

[Racenut20]

5. Do the JFK thing. "Don't get mad, get Even".

[glarius]

6. Have you thought about the 100,000 Iraqis who have died needlessly?

Are most Americans even aware of the deaths of all these innocent Iraqis?....You are only told about the death of the American servicemen and women....

[RethugAssKicker]

21. Americans could give 2-shits about the Iraqis

[glarius]

32. I believe if they were aware of the deaths that most of them

would be bothered by it....Your media is a joke, so the public at large is uninformed....IMO...:)

[BlueEyedSon]

7. When you say "use them on us", do you mean that Saddam had

ICBMs or long-range bomber aircraft (which could avoid detection and interception) to deliver WMDs here?

Saddam having WMDs, which he could (and presumably would) use on our invading troops or his immediate neighbors, was the best reason to continue inspections and build a true international coalition. The way the whole thing went down made no logical sense, militarily/strategically.

[LynnTheDem]

8. May I ask you some questions?

What news media did you listen/watch/read most?

Was the media above what made you believe the lies?

If not, why did you believe the lies?

Why did you think USA was at "war" from 19 criminals attacking us?

Why didn't you think this was a criminal matter and should be investigated as such?

When and how and why did you start realizing it was lies?

What lies did you realize first;

Iraq-911

Iraq-alQaeda

Iraq-WMD

Reason I'm asking; I knew it was all BS back in 2002. No WMD, no ties to 911, no ties to al Qaeda, no humanitarian intervention required, no "Saddam = madman" etc, and I know how & why I knew that. If I can learn how and why you didn't, and how & why you did, maybe we can find that "gap" problem area to help others still wallowing in the gap, and perhaps to help prevent future attempts by rogue governments to wage wars of aggression by pulling people out of that gap before wars are waged.

Thanks muchly if you'd be willing to help me! :)

[marions ghost]

23. excellent questions

which will be asked for a long time...just how did we get here?

[LynnTheDem]

25. I'd love to do a survey.

Find out why you & I knew, and others did not know and when and how exactly did the others learn the facts. I still dunno why suddenly the support for bush's war has plunged to 37%. The m$m hasn't been telling facts any more now than they did before, far as I can tell.

[marions ghost]

29. agree

my thoughts too. A survey of those who

1. didn't trust war push to begin with (and why)
2. those who came not to trust it later (when and why)

this could be very enlightening as exactly how the war was sold--not everyone was thinking alike. The spinners were taking different tacks and appealing to different mindsets.

[B Calm]

10. Ok you believed it. When did you wake up? Was it a few days

after the start of the war when you saw that Iraq wasn't using WMD's against an invading army? or did you chose to believe even a more ridiculous argument that Saddam moved them?

[Village Idiot]

12. I am never surprised by admissions like this...

Don't feel ashamed, or alone...It's a wonder many Americans EVER wake up, being brainwashed by nationalistic corporate fascist media 24/7...

Most Americans believe that the invasion of Iraq had popular support internationally, too. It didn't even have popular support in the "coalition of the coerced" countries...

Most Americans believe that the Invasion of Afghanistan had popular support internationally, too...Again, this assumption is FALSE.

Most Americans believe that the Invasion of Afghanistan was warranted, given the certainty of the * Administration that the terrorists responsible were hiding there, and the "evil Taliban" refused to extradite them...Unfortunately, even Robert Mueller (FBI-chief at the time) admits (9/11 inquiry, 2002) that they were still uncertain, TWO YEARS later...and that the Afghan government was NEVER given ANY EVIDENCE on which to base an extradition order...

The stuff that gets hidden from Americans by the media is ASTOUNDING!!! Don't let me EVER get started on stuff the US Media misses about ISRAEL!!! I would be branded as an anti-Semitic, anti-American conspiracy theorist in a HEARTBEAT!!!

[seabeyond]

14. i didnt believe it, i didnt believe in the war, too vietnam, but

when powell spoke at the u.n. i said out loud to husband,.....he wouldnt do this to his soldiers unless there was a need. we gotta trust them. and if they are lying, they are in trouble. i suspected they were lying. it felt like they were lying. but i outloud gave it to bush, hoping for the best. then.........we watched the invasion all night all day........and into baghdad and the fake pulling down of statue, the fake rescue jessica,....i knew, bush would fuck it up every way possible.

it was a different time, we were in a different place.....the world was different

bush needs to be punished. he lied. now he pays for his lies

[malmapus]

15. If it wasn't from personal experience I probaly would of bought the Iraq

lies myself. But luckily I did have the knowledge that there was no way that crap could of been real.

I bought 9/11 hook line and sinker though. The whole "war on terror" in the begining. The sabre rattling for Iraq is what woke me up and I've been pissed off and getting madder ever since.

[NewJeffCT]

16. I thought Saddam probably had WMD, but also that it was not worth war

I will admit I was not very well informed from 1997 through 2003. I was going through a miserable marriage & then divorce first, then ended up getting remarried shortly after 9/11 & got my wife pregnant midway through 2002 and having a baby in early 2003. Prior to my ex-wife, I regularly read the NY Times, kept up with foreign news like the BBC, etc. However, my first marriage took up so much time that other than getting through each day, I barely had time to sleep, let alone follow the news...

During the run-up to the Iraq war, I tried going to mainstream news sources and since it was 95% pro-war, I figured that Saddam probably had WMD somewhere. After all, 95% pro war is a pretty good consensus. But, I also figured that it was not worth war since so many outside the US were opposed & I figured that there must be a reason (other than being wimpy French people as the MSM would have you believe...) and was disheartened by the lack of anti-war coverage in the MSM when a good portion of the US population was also against Iraq. Surely it can't be that biased, could it? I was still also cynical enough to believe that Bush would plant fake WMDs in Iraq somewhere to ensure that he justified the invasion...

My turning point was when Bill O'Reilly threatened to sue Al Franken over "Lying Liars" - this, of course, got me out to buy the book and I was floored by all the revelations, and somebody finally sticking up for my point of view on many things. Soon after that, I found DU and become much more informed.

[leftofthedial]

17. I hope the entire country is discovering that they were lied to

Bush's lies have cost many thousands of lives and many billions of dollars and have destroyed America's reputation and economy.

[Jacobin]

18. A lot of people did.

I can see how you would be angrier than those who didn't believe. Betrayal is a real violation of trust.

I argued with my oldest son after Powell went to the UN and made his presentation. My son was convinced from his presentation that we had to invade. I tried to convince him otherwise, but he supported it until the fake picture of the toppling of the Saddam statute got him really upset and knowing this was a lie.

Hang in there. We will prevail, but not without a lot more pain, death, squandered treasure and decades of fence mending with our allies.

:-)

[ComerPerro]

19. See, I'm thinking there should be more people like you

People who gave Bush the benifit of the doubt, but now are either embarassed or angry about it, and who have learned not to trust anything he says.

But so many people just keep blindly believing him.

[spanone]

20. Not me, I've been lied to by Republicans since I could vote.

[marions ghost]

22. thanx for your post

and thanx to others here who are willing to discuss the thought process they went through leading up to the war. It's helpful to come to an understanding of how it all happened. The way the war was railroaded through was masterful, esp in how the Rovians played on the desires we all have to believe in the government and believe that our society works. It all comes down to trust. The Bush Family War is a monstrous betrayal of public trust, but I am hopeful that it may unlock the Pandora's Box of corruption that has been contained for so long. If more people actually FEEL this betrayal, if it comes home to them that we have experienced a hijacking on a massive scale BY OUR OWN government, then we are in a much better position to do something about it. And I hope that this carries over to rooting out corruption in other areas.

[Wright Patman]

24. I hate to sound smug

but, thanks to Alex Jones (who predicted the USG would stage a terrorist event and blame bin Laden two months before it happened), I never drank the KKKarl Kool-Aid and even as I watched the second plane hit the tower, I knew in my gut it was a MIHOP.

It is always safe to assume that governments are lying to you. It is the nature of the beast. If you are wrong, you find yourself pleasantly surprised at the government's aberrant instance of honesty.

[KharmaTrain]

27. What Was It That Changed Your Mind?

When did you decide this was all a deception?

I'm curious as I also thought there could be weapons inside Iraq, but I didn't believe there was any sufficient quantities or the means to deliver them that would be a threat to this country.

I never saw an Iraq/Al Queda connection as Saddam and Baathists were athiests and OBL and his herd were fundmentalists...would Jerry Falwell team up with Barbra Streisand?

That said, I'm curious where your line in the sand was and if you've seen others react a similar way.

Cheers...

[OrlandoGator]

31. Not finding WMD is the short answer.

I elaborate in the post below.

[B Calm]

33. But, you'd think Iraq would have used WMD's against an invading

army. When that didn't happened, there was no reason to hide them. What purpose would there have been to hide them? Saving them for a rainy day? It all came down to using plain old common sense and using common sense is something that is lacking in the United States.

[OrlandoGator]

30. A few answers to the questions asked of me in this thread.

I never approved of the idea of George W. Bush becoming president. As the fiasco surrounding the 2000 election went on and on, it became apparent to me that the system had been manipulated in order for Bush to "win" Florida and the White House.

So after that was all said and done, I figured I'd bide my time until 2004, when after four years of failed policies America would wake up and get this clown out of office by an indesputable margin. The amount of time he spent on vacation really grated on my nerves.

Then 9/11 took place, and I remember thinking, "this was the best thing that could happened for the Bush presidency." And in addition to my anger at what happened I was also angry that we would be going to war with this moron as our commander-in-chief.

I also came within a frog's hair of enlisting. I drove past the recruiter's office every day on the way to work, and it was hard not to stop. I wanted to help hunt down the people who planned 9/11 and kill them. And I wanted to kill the people who financed the planners. Right or wrong, I wanted to help bring the wrath of everyone's pain on to those who inflicted it.

But instead, I decided to be patient and wait to see how this administration handled Afghanistan. I knew the "War on Terror" wouldn't be limited to that one country, and I paid close attention to what was going on. When the talk of invading Iraq started, I was indeed skeptical.

But the Bush administration brought out piles upon piles of "reliable" evidence of Iraq's WMD and ties to al Qaeda, and I understood the rationale. Had Bush been telling the truth then, I still to this day feel that the invasion would have been justified.

But there was a caveat. I distinctly remember thinking, "they'd better find that WMD and it better be exactly where they thought it was."

The only catch was that it was all a steaming pile of bullshit. Colin Powell's speech to the UN, Rumsfeld's press conferences, Bush's speeches...none of it was true.

And that fast-forwards us to today. I believed the Iraq "intelligence" that Bush presented because I thought it was independent, verified and accurate. Given the rationale they provided, invading Iraq seemed logical.

But again, it all hinged on the intelligence. Which we know was cooked.

Worry not, though. We got an old saying in Texas...you know the rest.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

34. I'm not sure which is worse...

finding out it was all a lie after the fact or knowing in advance it was all a lie.

Thanks to the amazing folks here at DU I knew that what Bush & Co. was peddling was 100% bullshit. I went to every march I could, called/faxed my reps, called the White House, and essentially did everything I could to help stop the madness before it began.

And on the day of the invasion I cried for hours knowing what a terrible injustice was being perpetrated. That was a very bad day for me -- I thought I was going to lose it completely.

To feel so utterly powerless was crushing to my spirit.

I'm glad you were able to finally see what the truth was -- too many others have the truth staring themselves in the face but remain willfully blind to it.