So why don't we have more wind farms?

[JanMichael]

We've been travelling across the US since Memorial Day and have seen several thousand wind generators across the South West.

I've read that each big generator can power up to 200 homes, why don't we use this energy source on a major basis???

Birds? Sorry, I don't buy that argument. View? In most place that really isn't an issue.

Could it be that decades of fossil fuel money whores owning DC have stopped us?

I would imagine yes...

[clydefrand]

1. Can you have windmills in D.C.?? That's where all the hot air is.

[wuushew]

2. NIMBY

n/t

[JanMichael]

5. Ugh. Same with parks and bike paths I hear.

Then again smog doesn't know boundaries.

[Mizmoon]

36. fer sure

They want to do a windfarm here on LI in the Sound, but the folks with the waterfront homes object.

[skippysmom]

87. Same story here on Cape Cod

The publisher of the local daily is one of them and is leading a johad against it.

[wallwriter]

3. I drove right up to

one of the wind mills along the PA turnpike. Technical and political issues aside for a moment, it was cool as hell!

[JanMichael]

4. They are BEAUTIFUL! Row after row of electric generating...

...non-polluting, clean power sources! Ever one replacing some fossil fuel burner.

Every wind farm that I saw made me smile...

[MADem]

14. THANK YOU!!!!!!!

I was starting to think I was off a bit...years ago, before Gulf War 1, I saw a pile of them in Northern California. I thought they were the most lovely things I had ever seen. STUNNINGLY BEAUTIFUL!!!

And I am NOT a fan of "modern art." I am a fogey, a traditionalist, a lameass mainstreamer, in a lot of my personal, rather antiquated tastes (I like the "between the wars"--as in WW1-WW2--look). But I found them nothing short of GORGEOUS....

Hypnotic, delightful, wonderful things...you spend a minute or ten looking at them, and you somehow THINK BETTER.

I like them!!!!

I want MORE!!!

[JanMichael]

17. You know I thought that I was a bit off too!

I don't have the best eye for what many call 'art' but I truly felt a sense of awe and, I hate to say it, love in what I saw.

They signify life as well as have a sleek look that I believe adds too some landscapes.

Sometimes necesity leads to beauty.

[Yupster]

57. I will see a whole field of them tomorrow

driving to a small town for business.

It used to be called Enron Field, but I don't know who owns them all now. There are hundreds of them and they are much bigger than they look from the road.

Sadly here it is not the birds taking a pounding, but the bats. Thousands of them have been found dead under the windmill things. It's pretty awful.

[amazona]

18. well put one on your house then

When the last of our wild is gone and the last bird has been chopped to bits, I hope you can still sleep with the blood on your hands...aw fark it...most people don't care. The only species that matters is humans. I guess Soylent Green really is the future because people will kill everything else to save a damn dollar at the gas pumps.

<sigh>

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[JanMichael]

21. Chopped to bits??? They don't work like FANS.

As slow as most of the turbines move I would imagine it was suicide in order for a kill.


Oh, and I'm a bad environmentalist too, I want well being, and sustainability (At much lower rates of consumption I might add) for Humanity first.

[XemaSab]

47. How many of these have you seen?

They're pretty fast.

[JanMichael]

78. This is Stephanie,

and we saw thousands.

We have just driven over 3,500 miles in the US in the past 12 days.

I am a bleeding heart animal lover, and a former pretty good birder....and the bird argument is ridiculous. Those windmills move extremely slowly, and if you are interested, you might want to look up the statistics of birds killed by them.

[XemaSab]

89. I've heard anecdotal evidence

from ornithologists that the ground at Altamont Pass is covered in dead raptors.

[MADem]

33. I plan to, if I get enough property

You might want to research them before you dismiss them, or ascribe wholesale slaughter to them.

I think the birds are in greater danger from the shit spewed by coal plants than a slowly rotating large thing that they can see for miles away. Birds don't kill themselves flying into trees, unless they are incredibly stupid, and they won't kill themselves flying into windfarms, unless Darwin is at work.

BTW, I am a bird fan, too, and I don't see the issues. They are an energy industry canard to split the environmentalists on this matter.

[IrateCitizen]

43. What a canard!

When the last of our wild is gone and the last bird has been chopped to bits, I hope you can still sleep with the blood on your hands...

The truth is, this is not at all an issue unless your house sits in the middle of a flight or migratory path. Otherwise, the bird kill will be minimal -- and far, far less than the kill resulting from continued use of polluting fossil fuels.

But hey, why let facts and logic get in the way of an emotionally-charged and factually groundless argument, right?

[XemaSab]

46. Most wind farms

such as the farm at altamont, ARE in fact in migratory pathways.

[IrateCitizen]

51. I've read about CA's bad siting problems...

The problem with this argument is that instead of looking at it as a learning point, too many people with an agenda to discourage wind generation put forth such examples as TYPICAL of wind farms, when by no means do they have to be.

The solution, it seems to me, is simply to make migratory patterns a part of the site assessment before these generators get built. Apparently, that was not done correctly in this instance. However, I have also read about a myriad of wind farms across the upper midwest, without any serious instances of bird killings.

Another solution that has been worked on is slowing down the propeller rotation so that the birds can see it and avoid it.

In short, stop engaging in scare tactics and misportraying one bad site as indicative of "most" wind farms. That is, unless you think that acid rain is OK for wildlife, or your agenda is to discourage people from using ANY kind of energy in a search to return to the 13th century.

[XemaSab]

65. Whoa... hold on

I live in California, I am a Californian, and so California's bad siting problems are what I know. I am under the impression that both of the large wind farms in the state are places in areas with a lot of raptor traffic. These are also some of the few consistently windy areas in the state, and it's not a coincidence that raptors like the same windy, grassy areas that are good windmill areas.

I'm not opposed to windmills, but I think large scale industrial wind generation is bad for birds as well as anachronistic.

I had a good talk once with an aerodynamic engineer about windmill shapes, and why old windmills are shaped differently than new ones, and he said it had to do with efficiency at different air speeds. So we could have windmills in different parts of the state, but they wouldn't be able to run such a large percent of the time due to infrequency of winds.

Personally, I think the way of the future is for people in hot, sunny, non-windy areas to have solar panels and people who live in cool, windy areas to have personal windmills. We can have some power plants and large-scale wind arrays to make up for businesses, people in apartments, and other people who choose not to generate their own power, but most people should be able to generate enough electricity to make talk of nuclear vs wind vs hydropower a totally moot point.

[Yupster]

58. By me the problem is bats

not birds.

[IrateCitizen]

61. One of the solutions to that is to slow down the blade rotation...

... so that the bats can "see" them.

[JanMichael]

79. Damn it's early!

I had to delete my whole post because the coffee hasn't kicked in yet!

Steph

[Pockets]

63. Birds?

I'm sure it would be possible to design a windmill that would be harmless to birds. I would not doubt if current windmills were designed by republican engineers.

[Jose Diablo]

85. Actual the wind turbines don't kill that many birds at all.

Turbine Bird Kill

From this article:

"We are learning that modern wind turbines kill few, if any, birds. In perspective we find that other human activities take a far larger toll. To be specific, bird kill on glass windows in tall buildings take 100 to 900 million birds a year, more than any other human related factor <11 and 12>. The National Audubon Society says 100 million birds a year fall prey to domestic cats <13>. Even worse, the American Bird Conservancy estimates that feral and domestic outdoor cats probably kill on the order of hundreds of millions of birds per year <14>. Collisions with cars and trucks kill another 50 to 100 million birds a year <15 and 16>. According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service communication towers, especially those with guy wires, kill 4 to 10 million birds a year <17>. Space does not permit the detail discussion of bird kill to other human factors such as transmission lines, oil and gas extraction, oil spills (e.g., Exxon Valdez <18>), agriculture, logging, strip mining, and mercury pollution from power plants. In total, these human factors show that bird kill from wind turbines is minuscule in comparison."

Our pet kitties kill more birds than wind turbines, and this is quoting statistics from the National Audubon Society.

I have to say, your rhetorical words "the last bird has been chopped to bits" only adds an unneeded emotional context to the question of how to provide viable alternatives to our very real energy needs.

[leesa]

49. I agree. I think they are simply beautiful.

[Jacobin]

90. Me, Too!!!!

I think they are great.

Each one means several fewer carbon spewing machines.

[flygal]

80. We live in E. Germany and they're all over

I think they're awesome! They're a major tourist attraction for our guests from the states - such an oddity. I don't for a second think they obstruct from the beauty - it's not like we're in the Alps.

My home town in MT is starting to get into the wind business. I hope it works out.

[FearofFutility]

84. They are beautiful!

Every time I see them, I get excited. My kids just roll there eyes at me. "O.K., Mom. Yes, Mom. We see the windmills, Mom"

[fishnfla]

6. couple that with the flight from the plains

out there in the great plains, small towns are dying and deserted. I heard one place they are giving up land agin to homesteaders.

I will question you on one thing: I heard, and I'm usual drunk, but I heard that it takes thousands of wind turbines to great some energy

But again, there is alot of wide open spaces out there....

[JanMichael]

9. One per 200 or so "homes". It'd take one thousand to support...

...a city of 200,000 housing units. That's a city of around 500,000 people.

On certain tracts of land it's feasible to plant millions of these wonderful things.

[Mythsaje]

7. Check THIS out

http://www.enviromission.com.au/index1.htm

[JanMichael]

12. I dig that too. Combinations of these types of power sources...

...will likely be attempted too late the way we're going now...

[Mythsaje]

15. America

is starting to fall behind. No doubt about it.

[Yellow_Dog]

8. NIMBY's think their ugly

damn ugly NIMBY's :mad:

Plus Dumbya and his croonies can profit if the wind blows.

[Booster]

29. Actually, on a recent driving trip to Texas, I was stunned to see

quite a lot of them in Texas, of all places. Bring em on.

[The Straight Story]

10. I used to work for Enron in CA that made some of these systems

They are awesome IMHO. Tons of them in the Tehachapi mountains and 29 Palms. We sold and installed them all over the US, china, South America, and some European countries.

We can develop more of them across the US. We employed full time meteoroligists to assist in where to place them at the time. They are expensive to install and maintain but offer clean power.

Not sure why we don't have more. We can thank Carter for the ones we do have though.

[Blue Diadem]

11. My son worked at the installation of the BG wind farm,

for the first two that went in. He was called on another job, so he didn't get a chance to help when the last two were erected.

http://www.greenenergyohio.org/page.cfm?pageID=453

Great pics at link of all 4!

[JanMichael]

13. Magnificent!

What great photos!

I saw a farm in West Texas that was an Enron project that had at LEAST a thousand of these works of art.

Perhaps municipalities need to start taking the lead?

[amazona]

20. yes thank you Enron

You really don't get it that if Enron did it, there is probably a reason and not a progressive one?

<head in hands>

It's hopeless then. People have the memories of Mayflies.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[JanMichael]

24. Look I despise, yes despise, ENRON and it's compadres.

But the fact is fossil fuels (And insane comsumption...) are the problem, not windmills.

If ENRON just happened to put up some non-polluting units then so be it.

At this point we need to find alternatives...

Hell, I'm a bloody Socialist, so I'll take what we can get, for now.

[Yupster]

59. Enron owned the wind farms by me too

It's huge and still is operating.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. It only means it's profitable.

Big, evil corporations sell computers. Are computers evil?

I'm glad that, at least once, that particular corporation chose pure greed over ideological hate.

[Blue Diadem]

23. BG's were the first I had ever seen. They're beautiful,

and I just don't understand why some people are so against them. They are much more attractive and safer than Davis Besse.

I was thrilled to drive out and take pics when they were installing the first two. The crane used was massive and had to be brought in by train.

Hopefully more will go up in Ohio.

[amazona]

16. view, killing birds and bats, etc

Actually, the destruction of our last remaining migratory birds and our last remaining bats, in addition to the issue that these things destroy the view and value of property, are indeed BIG issues.

Energy companies are getting big kickbacks from the gov't for this ****. It is only the NIMBYs (individuals, ya'll) who are standing in the way and trying to make sure that every last one of our migratory warblers doesn't end up flying through a grinder twice a year.

Sheesh.

The oil -- ENERGY -- companies don't care if they make it on oil or wind or government subsidies (handouts). They'll take it anyway they can get it.

Who do you think is making money off these wind farms? It ain't Joe Blow Nobody. It's Big Energy.

Logic, folks.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[JanMichael]

19. How many die due to shitty air quality and pollution?

You lost me.

Also I believe, I know it sounds crazy, that public ownership of alternative sources is inevitable.

But if'n you want coal fine.

[amazona]

22. not that many

They don't have our lifespans so bad air doesn't seem to affect them as it does us. A bat or a bird is not going to get lung cancer if it only lives 20 years. Hell, it won't even reproduce if the first time it migrates, it is chopped up in a blender. I guess if we hop right on this with the help of Enron, we can kill them all and not ever have to worry about it again. :sarcasm:

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[JanMichael]

25. Chopped in a blender?

I'm sorry I don't buy this line of thought.

I also reject that the fossil fuel emmisions that we thrive on today is even remotely good for any living being that we might take a liking too.

[etherealtruth]

45. Where have you gotten your information?

Part of my degree requirements required that I study "alternate sources of energy generation" ... While I understand that there are drawbacks and enviro impacts with all attempts to harness energy, my understanding is that power generated from the wind was one of the sources producing the least harm.

Since I do not claim to be an expert on anything, I would love to learn more about your particular position ... could you pass on the scientific and technical info you have?

Edit: Grammar corrected

[MadHound]

50. Geez, you're so clueless, on so many levels, about this issue

First off, air pollution, water pollution and development IS killing off many species of birds. Development eats into many species' breeding and feeding grounds, thus forcing them elsewhere, or driving them to extinction. Yet you are blaming windmills. Air pollution and water pollution are accounting for ever more sterile birds, or birds whose eggs are thin shelled or otherwise deformed, thus the eggs aren't viable, or the hatchlings are so deformed they die. Yet you are blaming windmills. More migratory birds are sucked into jet and turbine engines, rotating at thousands of rpms than are hit by slowmoving windmills, yet you are blaming windmills.:eyes:

You think that windmills are benefitting big energy companies like Enron, but seem to be unaware that Enron is only around in name only, the company itself is pretty much dead. Also, the vast majority of windmills being put up aren't being put up by big energy companies, who are behind the curve as always, but by private individuals who are tired of feeding into the tired old, mass polluting big energy companies, and who are looking to become energy self sufficient.

I would suggest you go do some research on windmills, and educate yourself. Yes, there are a few birds that are getting hit by windmills, but it is nowhere close to the numbers claimed by the hysterical anti-windmill crowd. More birds run into skyscrapers and die from that every year than from hitting windmills. The windmill industry is aware of the problem, and is working on solutions, both in placing, and warning sounds, screens, etc to protect avian species.

Wind power is a major component of a multi-pronged energy policy that will make out enviroment cleaner, and wean us off of fossil fuels. The DOE has even stated that there are enough harvestable wind resources in three states, North Dakota, South Dakota and Texas to fulfill the entire US electrical needs through the year 2030. Think of it, clean, renewable power. But I suppose you would rather keep up that oil addiction, or start building more nuke plants because you're a NIMBY, and can't stand the sight of a windmill, but microwave towers sprouting everywhere, irradiating everybody is just fine with you?:eyes: Well fine, I'll take that windmill you don't want, and put it in my back twenty. Then I will be energy self sufficient, while you continue to pollute, and pay through the nose for the privelege of doing so.

Geez, and some people call ME a Luddite:eyes:

[etherealtruth]

54. There are obviously ...

... worse things than being called a LudditeO8)

[MadHound]

55. LOL, and in some cases I'm proud of it

I refuse to carry a cell phone, or be involved with any sort of GPS containing device. I've found them to be more of pain than of any sort of use.

But I just don't get the emerging resistance to windmills. It simply makes no sense:shrug:

[amazona]

64. I'm not clueless, sounds like you are

I care not what Texas, South or North Dakota do, no doubt those places do have a lot of open space. However, Big Energy is never satisfied. They want them in the Appalachian mountains, in the Northeast, offshore my own state of Louisiana -- all places where they will make it impossible for people to ever get out of the line of sight of these ugly artificial things. I should not be forced to look at somebody else's idea of beauty, especially if that person is so benighted that they can't enjoy nature unobstructed. That cheats me of my heritage as a human being.

Here at home, I do care that Big Energy wants to put these things offshore Louisiana which is a huge migratory flyway. NIMBYs are the only people putting up even a token resistance because government hand-outs are going to Big Energy for establishing these things, which may or may not make any difference to our energy situation. Peak oil hysteria is just that, hysteria, and a wind farm doesn't replace petroleum anyway. It is just an alternate income stream for Big Energy. Nice for them, not appropriate for everyone. There is no shortage of good old petroleum, just price-gouging, and people who think otherwise don't seem to have studied the issue anywhere much except at dieoff.org. Sorry, I am not going to destroy life based on hysteria.

I need proof.

People who welcome every new thing uncritically are why we're in this mess in the first place. There was a time when nuclear energy was the bright new thing, instead of the old expensive dying thing. A time when it was gonna be "too cheap to meter" instead of too expensive to build and maintain. A lot of fad energy "alternatives" are the same. People jump too fast, want cheap easy answers, and meanwhile the problem just gets bigger.

If you actually live in an area and you don't mind having your quality of life affected by these things in your line of sight, good on you.

But it sounds like the Original Poster just drove by some of these things, conveniently located to destroy someone else's view and quality of life, and called it good.

We're all too quick to sell somebody else down the river. By the way, you can check with American Bird Conservancy and get information about harm reduction from such things as wind farms, cell phone towers, etc. Once these things are built, they don't go away. It is incumbent upon US to resist these things being built in the first place, until it is proven that they are safe for wildlife and the environment.

Right now, we don't have sufficient data in most areas, yet Big Energy wants to rush in with a fait accompli. That tells me all I need to know. If it was safe and healthy, they could prove it, not rush it through.

We've been having a hell of a time getting data about effects on birds in the Central Flyway. The data is not there. Yet people want to push ahead. Why? The profit motive. Follow the dollar.

[XemaSab]

68. I agree with you

Offshore Louisiana is a terrible place for windmills. Do these people living in wherever not realize that the warblers and vireos and hummingbirds in their yards land on the Louisiana coast every spring?

There are appropriate places for small-scale wind generation, but why should we let Big Energy decide based on the almighty bottom line where these things should go?

[MadHound]

76. You keep talking about big energy, but if you look at the marketplace

It is nowhere to be found friend. Check this chart out: <img src="" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

Notice that the largest producer of wind turbines is a foreign company, with no other ties to energy. Yes, GE comes in second, but the only tie with energy that they have is building turbines, electrical devices, ownership of a couple of nuke plants, and that is about it. Where are the other "Big Energy" villians that you are screaming about?
Besides, even if "Big Energy" gets involved, I say bravo on them. It means that they'll stop using oil and coal fired power plants, which in case you notice, contributes to the decline of all our lives' quality, through such things as air pollution, acid rain and global climate change. Let's see here now, put up a wind turbine in somebody's line of sight, or poison the very air they breath and water they drink. Hmmm, I think I'll go for preserving the air and water quality friend.

You consider windmills and wind turbines to be a "new thing" I hate to disillusion you, but windmills have been around for over a thousand years, and they have been producing electricity in the US for over seventy years. Hardly new. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine>

As far as the so called bird problem goes, I find your position laughable. You're buying into the spin of the very group you claim to despise, Big Energy. They are throwing out a very limited perspective, the situation in Altamount Pass in California, where it isn't so much the numbers of birds getting killed, but the fact that the birds they are killing are on the endangered list. Don't you realize that you're being played by those you most despise? <http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/env/birds.htm><http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/ms_bats_0302.html><http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/swbirds.html>
Even the American Bird Conservancy recommend windmills and solar, renewable resources over all other forms of electrical generation, because they realize that overall such renewable sources of power cause a much lower rate of bird mortality than the other options that we have today.<http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/windpolicy.htm>

Thus, your only realistic objection is a NIMBY one. Well friend, as far as I'm concerned, tough shit. Frankly I find cell phone towers ugly, but they're all over the landscape. Do you own a cell phone? If so, then you're part of that problem. Quite frankly, within five years I'm going to have a wind turbine up in my back twenty, and I will be quite happy with it. I've talked to my neighbors about this matter, and they are also fine with it, for gee, it will be providing some power for them also. What I really object to is coal, oil, and nuclear plants laying waste to our earth. These aren't aesthetic concerns, but real live health problems that are taking their toll on you, me and every other living creature on this planet. I find that such health problems outweigh aesthetic concerns each and every day. Besides, where is the biggest amount of noise coming from concerning the aesthetics of these towers. From people who live on the coast line, right. And what class of people live on the beach mostly? Why the rich and well off, of course, since they are the only ones who can afford most beachfront property. So, not only are you buying Big Energy's lies about bird mortality, you are also spouting the talking points of the very rich. Good job, way to be a soldier in the class wars friend:eyes:

Sorry, but your objections ring hollow with me. It seems that your main problem is that you don't want to live within sight of a wind turbine, but yet you seem to be perfectly fine with breathing polluted air, drinking foul water, and eating polluted food. As the old saying goes, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. I see which side of that equation you come down on now. I would suggest that you reconsider, for sooner or later, you're going to get rolled over. More and more people are switching to renewables, including wind, for the energy potential is immense, cheap and clean. It is the future of this nation, if this nation is going to have a future.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

70. I smell AGENDA.

I wonder about what that poster's line of work is.

[Blue Diadem]

26. They actually rotate pretty slow, and shut down when wind

speeds reach a higher level. Their blades are extremely long so the energy is produced from them moving at a slower speed. About the only thing that could kill birds would be if they ran into one and broke their neck. Considering these things are massive, I don't think there is any higher chance of them hitting a wind turbine than in hitting a water tower or a high rise.

[XemaSab]

48. Birds hit large numbers

of high rises.

[Blue Diadem]

56. I would imagine some do,

just like they hit my house and my car at times. They do run into things.

Several years ago, I took a turtle dove that I saw smack into a passing car to the humane society. It had damaged it's beak. On the way home, a robin smashed head on into my windshield!

Do I fault the car..the fact I was driving down the road or the bird for not watching where it was going? Do I tear down my house because some pretty large birds have hit it? What about a relatives barn? Owls and hawks have smashed into that.

I still believe wind power is a better choice than what we have been using.

[Yupster]

60. Seems like they should be able to use colors

or patterns or sounds to scare away the birds, or in my location the bats.

[XemaSab]

66. See response to #51

Also, most birds that eat it at windmill sites are hawks and owls, and that's just tragic. Anything we can do to help them, we should do, both by cleaning up the air and by not building huge things for them to run into.

[sweetheart]

82. Not quite that slow

It is estimated that were a blade to fragment on one of the larger
ones, that the tip could fly *7 miles* before it landed. They look
slow at the center. The tip speed is quite fast.

[SidDithers]

81. Windshare, Toronto's community energy co-op...

Wind turbine on the lakeshore in downtown Toronto. It is owned by a co-op of Toronto residents, who get a share of the power generated, and/or a share of the proceeds of the power sold back to the grid.

Not everything has to be about big business.

Sid

[Stinky The Clown]

27. The perfect location for a fan farm

Lots of windy gasbags at the opposite end of this grassy area .......

[cestpaspossible]

28. In Montana, we passed a renewable energy act, a new wind farm is going up

in Judith Gap.

BTW, Gov. Brian Schweitzer will be on Lou Dobbs tomorrow, Thursday, June 9, at just after 4:30 mountain time.

[bloom]

30. I think birds and views are issues

(Who wants a world without birds or views?)

So is air pollution:

"Three million people die of air pollution each year worldwide. 2.8 million of the 3 million die from indoor air pollution. 90% of the 3 million are deaths in developing nations. 70,000 die each year in the U.S. (Some estimates are as low as 50,000 or as high as 100,000). Deaths from air pollution are compared to deaths from second hand smoke and chemical weapons. In the U.S, more people die from air pollution than from car accidents. They die specifically from agitated asthma, bronchitis,emphysema, lung and heart diseases, and other respiratory allergies. The EPA estimates that a proposed set of changes indiesel fuel technology (Tier 2) could result in 12,000 fewer premature mortalities, 15,000 fewer heart attacks, 6,000 feweremergency room visits by children with asthma, and 8,900 fewer respiratory-related hospital admissions each year in the US."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution
---

And that doesn't cover everything either. Of course - the EPA has put off regulating air pollution - giving companies an extra 20 years what the Clean Air Act ( as opposed to Bush's Clear (dirty) Skies " initiative" would have accomplished by 2008.

The EPA also ignored their own study because it would have shown more risk to people/environment than the damage industries are causing.

http://www.sierraclub.org/cleanair/clear_skies.asp

http://www.nrdc.org/air/pollution/qbushplan.asp

[JanMichael]

31. Late night kick!

:kick:

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. People like them as long as it's not near their homes (or vacation homes)

Residents upset over Cape Cod wind-farm plan
Clean power source would be unsightly, opponents argue

Anna Badkhen, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, November 21, 2004

Barnstable, Mass. -- Lou Emrich is as sensitive as anyone when it comes to environmental concerns. A native Cape Codder, he knows firsthand the value of the pristine beaches of nearby Martha's Vineyard and the untamed vastness of Nantucket Sound, both situated in one of the nation's most coveted vacation spots.

But when it comes to building the world's largest offshore wind farm that would provide pollution-free energy for much of the Cape Cod area and beyond, Emrich is not so sure.

"We certainly need energy conservation, we need alternative sources of power, but we don't want it where they want to put it," said Emrich, 62, who works at a jewelry shop in the coastal town of Barnstable, whose waterfront district of Hyannis would be looking out on the installation. "Where should they put it? Somewhere out of sight. We just would hate to see these things out there."

Right now, Boston-based Cape Wind Associates wants to locate the wind farm -- America's first offshore wind-power installation -- on a shoal just off Cape Cod. The wind conditions are ideal, as is the depth of water, and the plant would be close enough to the shore to tap into the region's existing power grid.

more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/21/MNG5H9V40D1.DTL

[Kazak]

34. I use wind power here in Oklahoma,...

where the wind comes sweeping down the plain. ;)

[etherealtruth]

40. Thanks---I'll never get the song out of my head!!! n/t

[all.of.me]

35. "because we need to do more research."

that was alwasy reagan's answer when asked about solar power, although satellites were already powered with solar! what a crock of shit.

i have wanted to put up a windmill in my yard. there is a constant gentle breeze that picks up to about 20-40 mph in spring. i live on mariah road, and legend has it that it was named after the song.......

[randr]

37. One reason is that the location of many choice

wind generation sites are far from the distribution grid. The question must be asked why no efforts are going on to extend our grid to the eastern plains of Montana and other areas that would be ideal for wind generation.

[LWolf]

38. In my old community, it was "the view."

I lived for 24 years in a place good for nothing but aerospace, solar generators, or windfarms; hot, dry, flat, open, and continuous strong winds.

It has the aerospace; there are windfarms in the county to the north. Every attempt to develop a windfarm in our area was defeated by the residents, who felt it would be "unsightly" and bring down the quality of the neighborhood. :eyes:

It really is a rather nasty, miserable place to live. The best human use of that large region would be to generate clean energy, both solar and wind. I'd like to see the bird issues resolved in a way that benefits the birds; I'm sure, if it were a priority, it could be.

[GOPisEvil]

39. Get this: our municipal utility (Austin) charges MORE for wind power.

Customers who choose to enroll in the plan pay more for their power. Austin Energy receives power from a couple of wind sources, including one in West Texas. Just a thought, but shouldn't we be encouraging participation with lower rates?

[IrateCitizen]

53. That won't happen until fossil fuel prices go way up...

I also get 100% renewables through my power company in NY state -- 25% wind, 75% small-scale hydro. And I pay a monthly premium charge for it.

But it's worth it to me, because I give a shit about something other than just my bank balance or the ability to buy more junk I don't need.

[Emperor Norton]

41. theyre too busy looking for pot farms thats why

Ranch-coveting officials settle for killing owner

http://home.pacbell.net/rsdotson/sources/WorldNetDaily%20Ranch-coveting%20officials%20settle%20for%20killing%20owner.htm

To Bradbury, it was easy to see why. L.A. County wanted jurisdiction. In a 64-page report issued by Bradbury's office in March of 1993, Bradbury concluded that the search warrant contained numerous misstatements, evasions and omissions. The purpose of the raid, he wrote, was never to find some evanescent marijuana plantation. It was to seize Scott's ranch under asset forfeiture laws and then divide the proceeds with participating agencies, such as the National Park Service, which had put Scott's ranch on a list of property it would one day like to acquire, and the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department, which heavily relied on assets seized in drug raids to supplement its otherwise inadequate budget.

[rfkrfk]

42. save the Ivory Billed Woodpecker...no more bird blenders n/t

[Debbi801]

44. My father-in-law works for the company that handles wind farms in ...

California. A few years ago, we went to visit them and he took us there. I thought they were amazing and beautiful.

Debbi

[ContraBass Black]

52. Wind isn't always constant enough

To be used as an exclusive metropolitan power source. It certainly makes an excellent supplement, though.

[IrateCitizen]

62. No one source should be singled out...

However, we should be seeking to incorporate as many different sources on a more localized and smaller scale as possible.

[GreenPartyVoter]

67. NIMBYism

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

71. The negative reactions are so outlandish and over the top it HAS to be

some agenda at work. "Ugly?" "Bird genocide?" Give me a break.

Even fucking ENRON found them profitable, for fuxakes! (Remember, they are/were NOT an OIL company, but an ELECTRICITY company.)

[GreenPartyVoter]

72. Oh there may well be a deeper agenda, but for local folks in the area

of proposed farms it's nimbyism. Sheeple are sheeple.. they'll be upset at whatever they are told to be upset about.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

73. False, externally-grafted NIMBYism

They were TOLD to consider wind farms ugly, and therefore they do. Don't freepers consider Ann Coulter hot? Same thing.

[GreenPartyVoter]

74. Pretty much

[trekbiker]

75. WIndmill technology has come a long ways... some numbers..

older windmill technology used smaller windmills that rotated at relatively high frequency. Birds, especially raptors (eagles, hawks) had problems seeing or timing the blades so bird kills were pretty high. You can still see some of these older units at Altamont here in California.

The modern windmills are much larger and turn much slower (about one revolution every three seconds is max). Bird kill rates are lower with the new windmills.

Generating capacity per windmill is also much much higher, about 2.5 MW per unit. Thats huge. 2.5MW = 2,500KW = 2,500,000 watts. thats max capacity at max wind so real world power generation in kilowatt hours will be about 1/3 of max.

Lets look at what the $300,000,000,000 (300 billion) wasted on Bush's Iraq quagmire COULD HAVE BOUGHT if we had sunk that money into a giant windmill farm in, say, South Dakota... I'll use a real world windmill park, the Norwegian Havoygavlen windmill park, as a basis for comparison.

Havoygavlen: 16 windmills, 2.5MW per windmill, 40MW max output. These units need a minimum of 9mph wind to generate electricity and can operate in winds up to 56mph. Since wind doesnt blow 56mph 100% of the time the total energy produced will be about 1/3 of max potential output, in this case for this park around 120 GWh of energy per year. this will power about 5,000 to 6,000 homes for a year.

total cost for Havoygavlen was around $44 million.

$300 billion divide by $44 million times 16 units = 6,818 windmills. Thats enough to power 2,556,818 homes. and NO GREENHOUSE GASES. you still would need to build transmission lines from South Dakota to the major metro areas but even if you knock the number of windmills installed for Bush's wasted $300 Billion in half it would still be an incredible thing.

I say lets build giant wind farms in the desolate windswept areas of the US and giant Solar cell farms in the arid sun belt areas. We would still need coal, nat gas, nuKULAR and hydro but it would be a good start on a more diversified energy mix.

[trekbiker]

77. boy did I screw UP!!

300 Billion divide 44 million time 16 windmills = 109,090 windmills!!!!! HOLY SHIT!!!!!!

thats enough for around 650 million homes!!!! aahahahaaa

paper South Dakota over with windmills and power the entire US!!

even cutting the numbers way down for such things as siting, wind availability, transmission lines, etc you could still power a good part of the eastern half of the US

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. I think there's still a mistake in your calculations

The 120 GWh/year applies to the whole farm (roughly 1/3 of 40MW x 24 hours x 365 days, as does the 5000-6000 homes (meaning 20MWh/year per home, or a continuous power of about 2.3kW - sounds about right).

So 300 billion divided by 44 million gives you 6818 farms, which power 6818 x 6000 = 40 million homes. That's still over a third of the US domestic electricity usage - not peanuts.

Another way of looking at it: current US electricity production is 3.8 trillion kWh
which is 3.8 million GWh
which would need 3.8 million/120 = 32,000 of this size of wind farm to generate
The $300 billion of wind farms would provide 6,818/32,000 = 20% of the USA's whole electrical power production (which includes industrial uses).

[sweetheart]

83. The issues are siting and backup

There are several issues JM, and most all of them are around siting.
Firstly, the power grids need to be extended to the site as it is usually
off-grid, and this transmission attenuates the resulting power, that if
you have to transport the power far enough, the outputs are not as good
as they read at the base of the wind generator.

Second, they ARE noisy and should not be placed within a coupla miles of
any residence, as the noise is low frequency and has, as a local wind
farm has evidenced, caused persons to not sleep and move away. Birds
have a similar sense, and if you site them in a bird-area, you will
drive away the birds and wildlife with the whine of the generators and
the whoosh woosh of the blades.

They need to be sited a fair distance apart due to turbulance created
by the blades of otherS, and this can take up a fair amount of land.
And like oil drilling, this involves putting in roads and pouring huge
concrete bases for each generator. This is the very thing that they
say is a problem at that alaska north slope, so the message is again
to avoid siting them in sensitive wilderness where noise and roads
will disrupt the last vestiges of diminishing animal species.
coastlines as well....

Backup is the real problem, however, as everyone who's read a book
about sailing ships knows the duldrums where without wind, the ship
has no power. Well, when that happens to a wind-dependent generator
scheme, then there needs to be a backup power means that covers 100%
of the power needs for dead-wind days. This is a serious problem,
and some are suggesting nuclear power for this!! aaaah!! I agree
that wind generation is a good thing when it is installed and sited
properly. To call it the answer is being naive. Solar, insulation,
wave generation, and other sources need to form a full package, or
it is not really a solution in its own right.

[Blue Diadem]

88. Information on birds, bats, wind mill hits vs building hits etc.

Wind Turbines and Avians
BIRDS, WIND TURBINES, COMMUNICATIONS TOWERS, AND GLASS BUILDINGS:

http://www.greenenergyohio.org/page.cfm?pageId=116



Bowling Green Turbines Claim Few Bats
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/page.cfm?pageID=582