So Someone Asked if it's OK to be a Liberal and be in the Military

[maxrandb]

I am an active duty Naval Officer who "pulled myself up by the bootstraps" from E1. Advanced through the Chief Petty Officer rank and earned a commission through the LDO/CWO Program. I am what you may have heard called a "Mustang". I am also a proud "bleeding heart" liberal.

A better question for you to ask would be "Why do so many leading conservatives that love war, and supposedly 'Support the Troops', have so little experience as a 'troop'"?

Our country, and particularly our Democratic Party, has a rich tradition of service in the military. Somehow, we have allowed the Repukes to snatch that tradition of service away from us. You need look no further than the last election to see what I am talking about.

One candidate was wounded in battle for this country. One candidate still carried shrapnel that was fired in anger in his body. One candidate earned 3 Purple Hearts and a Silver Star (our 5th highest award for bravery).

Somehow this candidate's military service was ranked lower than the candidate who avoided real combat by pulling strings to get into a "non-combat" National Guard position, and then failed to even fulfill his obligations in that position.

Another candidate was confined to a wheelchair after leaving an arm and two legs in a foreign country. Yet, despite this supreme sacrifice, he was labeled a "traitor and a wimp".

No True Notes, there is nothing wrong with being a liberal and serving in the military. It's our tradition.

I will grant you that there are more in the military that vote Repuke, but I argue that is because we Democrats have allowed the right wing to steal the word "Patriot" and twist it to meet their own definition.

Democrats need to loudly and proudly reclaim that word, and once again make it perfectly acceptable to wear the uniform of this country while you pull the "D" lever in the voting booth. There are more of us "Blue" veterans out there than you might think.

Liberals are making the ultimate sacrifice today, as they always have. Unlike the "leadership" of the Repuke Party, we do more than simply pay "lip service" to the term "Patriot"...we live it!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Mustang. Cool.

One of my closest friends was a mustang. When he retired they frocked him Brigadier General.

[LostinVA]

2. MY BIL was a Mustang in the Army -- CWO 3 n/t

[TahitiNut]

3. Don't forget how they denigrated Al Gore's service in 'Nam.

These people are beneath contempt.

[indepat]

7. And how they denigrated John Kerry's service

[Career Prole]

4. A mustang! I should have known!

My favorite zeroes were always mustangs! :toast:

As for the topic, I'd actually prefer an all-liberal military until such time as the cons purge the lunatics from their party.

[maxrandb]

8. Me Too!

I was talking to a friend of mine recently, and we started talking about Teddy Roosevelt.

Roosevelt required his sons to serve in the military, because he believed that his children should do at least what was asked of other American children..

My friend said (rhetorically); "You know how you can tell we no longer have a Republic"?, "The Bush twins aren't in Iraq"

[TomClash]

5. Thank you for your service to the country

and your "bleeding heart" politics.

Just remember, anyone whose heart isn't bleeding is dead - from the neck up and down.

One addition to your post - which candidate "let" 9/11 happen on his watch?

[BrainRants]

6. Amen Shipmate!

I was enlisted also, got out as an E4 and went to college and proudly hung on to my liberal upbringing. College taught me what it's like to not have health insurance, to live from payday to payday, to eat PB&J sandwiches for weeks on end. In the end it all paid off, but I'll never forget the anxiety.

Your life (and mine) at the bottom makes us remember what it's like at the bottom. That's why we care about those at the bottom. I'm sure a number of officers you served with were from privilege (of some sort) having gone through the college thing. They never saw the bottom as you did.

Let's face it, there are a lot of "education challenged" (read: dumb) people in the military. (If you're a vet that statement won't offend you.) I strongly believe part of the problem is that too many in the military are unable to think for themselves, they need/like being told what to do and think. Group-think and blind allegiance is instilled from day one.

I'm a Liberal Navy Veteran and proud of it!

[maxrandb]

9. Yep

Big difference between the O's that came up from the enlisted ranks, and those that started out at the "bottom of the top" (as we call Ensigns)

Only the "Mustangs" know what it's like to have a crazy Filipino MSC chase you around the "scullery" because you screwed up the Chief's "Robster Salad" (as he called it)

[fasttense]

16. Yeah, there is a difference between Mustangs and other Officers

But it ain't all bad. I worked my way through college. There were days I couldn't afford to eat. But I made it and got my degree then joined.

And let me tell you, if you go in as an Ensign and are not a Mustang life in the Navy isn't pleasant. You get harassed from both the other officers and the chiefs as just another "dumb" Ensign. But I stuck it out and worked my way through the ranks. Not all non-Mustang Os come from the idle rich.

[maxrandb]

18. Roger That Shipmate

Still, we posess that which a traditionally commissioned officer never will...."the knowledge of what beats in the heart of an enlisted man"

[Jara sang]

10. Thanks max

I am trying to get over my association with the military as all right-wing republican war hawks. Of course all service women and men are not Bushbots. The Republicans have not only tried to usurp the honor of those liberals that serve, but they dishonor all Americans that serve by haphazardly putting them in harms way. Thanks for the post.

[knitter4democracy]

11. Ooh! Maybe you can help me.

I'm trying to find a Dem serving in our armed forces overseas who needs a helmet hat. I don't care where s/he is serving, I just really want to do this. I've got a great pattern that makes a hat that fits under a helmet without showing and helps add another layer of warmth. Yeah, I could send it to one of the charities, but I'd like to send it to a DU'er.

Do you need one? Do you know someone who needs one? I'll have it done and ready to ship so that it gets there by fall and the cold weather.

Thank you for your sacrifices and service. We don't do enough to help our troops out or thank them enough for all they've done for the rest of us. Bless you for giving your life in service to our country.

[fasttense]

12. Way to go Mustang!!!!

I'm a retired Naval Officer too. But I joined as an Ensign. We liberals have always supported our country with our lives but you would think, the way the repukes talk, that none of us were patriotic enough to join the military.

I believe that is one reason that recruiting is doing so poorly lately. Repukes have high-jacked the word patriot. Liberals aren't joining like they use to, and repukes would rather just say they are patriotic instead of actually doing something about it.

Air America had a retired Army Recruiter on the show yesterday and he said that he would go up to a house (to interview a prospective applicant) with "We Support the Troops" ribbons all over their SUVs. They had flags waving and big Ws on their cars and when they knocked on the door boy did they get a surprise. They would be told by the parents (even after the kid had expressed an interest to join) we don't want you here, Go Away. Our son is not joining. Now that's what I call lip service patriotism.

[flygal]

15. Former Navy Wife here

Gag I hated the officer's wives club. I was so outnumbered. Two - count em TWO other wives who were Gore supporters and my hubby was on a carrier.

And of course all those repug officers were all of the highest moral fiber - incl. the capt who had an affair with the enlisted woman shhhhhh.

The military isn't very appealing to most liberals - my hubby is more of a moderate, won't align with any party but detests *. He had a hard time fitting in with the Good Ol Boys - he doesn't play that crap.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. Hiya Mr. Max

Best CO I ever served under was a Mustang. He's now retired ... and taught school ... and is now retired from that .......

Kinda like the ship I served on ... long ago retired ....



You're absolutely right. There are many more liberals in the military than people imagine. Always were. Always will be. I'm not sure how we get back our **earned** support for the military.

[StaggerLee]

14. Wow, that's a term I haven't heard in a long time

But I got out of the Navy in 1990 so there's my excuse.

I really appreciate you telling it like it is maxrandb. All walks of life serve in our armed forces. The audacity of the GOP to slander the good men who served with integrity as you mentioned in your post is just plain sick.

What I wouldn't give to get in a smoker with one of those slanderers...

sL-




*edit of subj. line

[maxrandb]

17. Military Member will Appreciate this Joke

A brand new Ensign reports to his first ship and checks in with the Command Master Chief. He says; "Master Chief, they told us a lot about ranks in the military, but they never explained what each rank device represented, could you help me out"?

The Master Chief says; "Well, when you start out as an Ensign, we give you a gold bar. This is a precious metal, but is still soft and pliable". "It means that you are precious to us, but you can still be molded"

"Then you make O2 and you get a silver bar. This is still a precious metal, but it is a little more hardened and set"

"Then you make O3 and we give you two silver bars and add a backbone to you"

"An O6 wears an Eagle. This is the symbol of our country, a symbol of grace and power soaring above us"

"Then when you make O7 you get a star. This is the brightest light in the sky, shining down on us and guiding us".

The Ensign thanks the Master Chief, but says; "Master Chief, what about the gold and silver oak leaves?"

The Master Chief smiles and says; "Those symbols go all the way back to the beginning of time. When Adam was in the Garden of Eden and realized he was naked, God came to him and said; 'Take these two leaves. From now on and for all eternity, you will use these leaves to cover your Pricks and Assholes'"

[myrna minx]

19. What a great post.

Thank you for your service. :hi:

[wicket]

20. AMEN!

great post!

[Hello_Kitty]

21. I was a Torpedoman's Mate in the Navy

And I agree with you. Great post. Randi Rhodes, Air America radio host, often discusses her Air Force experience and points out how the military is probably the most liberal society there is in the sense that it takes care of the needs of its members and that a unit is deemed only as strong as it's weakest member. Those are basic tenets of liberalism. It always amazed me how my fellow sailors were so brainwashed by their leaders and the Rush Limbaughs to accept conservative ideology in their political views and couldn't see the huge contradiction that was right before their eyes.

[maxrandb]

22. Well, When

You've got "Pigboy" being fed to Armed Forces Radio for an hour each day (YOUR AND MY TAX DOLLARS AT WORK), it's easy to see how military members could be influenced.

[Hello_Kitty]

23. It's nothing new, either.

I remember him being on AFRTS way back in '93 when I was stationed in Japan. No liberal counterbalance whatsoever. I'm glad people are finally calling attention to it.

[Steel City Slim]

24. You Got That Right

The only people who love war are those who never fought one. That's why so many in the Bush administration think this is great fun. That and war profiteering.

They need to denigrate the service of others to our country because otherwise they are exposed as cheap imitations of true patriots, as false patriots. Max Cleland, Al Gore, John Kerry, even fellow repub John McCain was attacked during the 2000 primary. And when they attack one who served their country, they attack all who served.

We have allowed the conservatives to do more than steal the word Patriot, we have allowed them to steal the idea of Patriotism. That is why, in addition to the liberal stickers on my car, I have a couple of American flag stickers, a patriot for peace sticker, and a veteran for peace sticker. To demonstrate that liberals are patriotic, that liberals love their country.

AO3
G-Div Ord
USS Forrestal
1967-1969

[tabasco]

25. The attacks on Kerry, Cleland, etc. are disgraceful.

The people who believe this garbage simply because they are republicans are a disgrace as well. They do not support the troops, they only support the republicans.

The right-wing spends massive amounts of money on propaganda, and a central pillar of their propaganda is that the military is all republican. Another problem is the generals who go to work for defense contractors after active duty and shill for the republicans to get $$$$$$$$$$ for their corporations. The unfortunate effect is that many gullible people fall for the propaganda and lies of the war profiteers.

I'm an Army officer who also started as an E-1. I'm an Airborne Ranger with a CIB and I dare any republican to call me unAmerican or traitorous. Sorry, don't have enough self-control. I will kick their ass or get mine kicked trying.

I was active for 12 years and now in the IRR. I am pessimistic about getting called back up (i.e., I think it is inevitable).

I worked at times with the Navy and Marines. I got to visit the Abe Lincoln and several troop carrier ships. I was impressed with the efficiency of the Navy crews, on the carriers especially.

Here's a big HOOAH! from a fellow miltary officer and bleeding heart liberal.

[stanwyck]

26. Not only is my liberal

son, a Marine, on his second tour in Iraq, but the people who have been most supportive of him -- not just mass-produced decals on their cars -- but real support, have been liberals.
He voted for Kerry. He voted for Cynthia McKinney.
Yes. Liberals in the military exist. And the brass will tell you, privately, what they really think of BushCo.
My son's twin sister was the secretary for the Young Democrats on her campus and an outspoken campus activist.
People say they're confused by her leftie bumper stickers AND the Semper Fi (for her twin).
They shouldn't be.

[erichzann]

27. I don't know how someone could serve today.

I'm quite comfortable saying that there are plenty of wonderful liberal people who have served honorably in the military at some point in the past. There was a time where military service was honorable.

..but for the life of me I can't fathom how a liberal today standing in stark moral opposition to the policies of this government could with clear conscience serve in the military today.

I can't understand how anyone can be willingly complacent in war crimes, illegal occupation and the dishonor that our armed forces are currently engaged in.

Now, I'm torn because I have different degrees of sympathy. For example, my heart hurts for the desperately poor high school kid too young to even break apart the nationalistic indoctrination done by our educational system and society who is told stories of hope of going to college, escaping poverty, etc. by ruthless recruiters.

My heart hurts over people who joined the service with an honest desire to serve the country and stand for justice and freedom, only to be thrown into a situation now where the cost of resisting this injustice would be extremely severe for them - court marshal, imprisonment, permanently hanging around their neck for the rest of their life. It would be agonizing to try to do the right thing in that context.

I realize this circumstances complicate things. But someone walking down to the local recruiters office today and enlisting, given everything we know -- I can't justify that as long as the police of our government remain totalitarian and criminal, and as long as that corrupt government uses the military as the strong arm of its disgusting policy to enforce injustice and dishonor around the world.

I make these confessions as a son of a veteran who comes from a family with a long history of military service. :(

[Stinky The Clown]

28. I understand your mixed feelings

Military service is honorable. It is *service* to one's country. The time of one's joining has some bearing on the appropriateness of it at any given time. As we know, current recruitment is down. I'm not sure what the overall reasons are. Fear of being sent to fight The War in Iraq®? Probably. Unwillingness to support an illegal action? Probably less likely (I doubt most kids are quite that well thought out).

But overall, service in the military is a time honored way to serve one's country. The simple fact is, we must have a military. We can deabte the choices we make in how it is used, but the military itself is actually policy neutral.

I would be proud to have my sons serve. I am also the one - a veteran - who offered to drive them to Canada if a draft were to ensue.

I share your mixed feelings. But as a veteran, I can tell you I am proud to have served (late 60s/early 70s) and would do it all over again.

[stanwyck]

30. Your anguish is similar

to my own. However, I'm glad the military has a young man like my son, a liberal. People who view the world with compassion and hope need to be represented. The military desperately needs more liberal people...people who will change the nature of how the world views our country. To many people around the world, America is a bully whose people care only about money and the diversions of personal pleasure. Change comes from within. Liberals need to do what the conservatives have done...work within every organization to affect change. From the school boards and the county zoning commissions to the troops representing our country overseas. More liberals are needed. Not less. This is how we change the world.

[Shipwack]

37. How/why I can serve...

erichzann posted:
" I'm quite comfortable saying that there are plenty of wonderful liberal people who have served honorably in the military at some point in the past. There was a time where military service was honorable.

..but for the life of me I can't fathom how a liberal today standing in stark moral opposition to the policies of this government could with clear conscience serve in the military today.

I can't understand how anyone can be willingly complacent in war crimes, illegal occupation and the dishonor that our armed forces are currently engaged in."

::snip::

I serve because though I am appalled and ashamed of the Republican congress, I did not enlist to serve them and they do not hold my loyalty.

Though I am appalled and ashamed of the man who is my Secretary of Defense, I did not enlist to serve him and he does not hold my loyalty.

Though I am appalled and ashamed of the man who is my Vice President, I did not enlist to serve him and he does not hold my loyalty.

Though I am appalled and ashamed of the man who is my President, I did not enlist to serve him and he does not hold my loyalty.

I took a vow to protect and defend the constitution of the United States against -all- enemies, foreign and -domestic-. I currently serve unworthy men, but they shall pass. Someone has to be here afterward to teach these kids how to service a switchboard without electrocuting themselves, and to ensure that my ship can someday be used honorably. Doing anything otherwise would be a waste of the taxpayer's dollar, and a waste of effort of those who taught me how to not electrocute myself.

[erichzann]

39. But you're willingly doing their business.

You act right now as a hand in injustice. You may not have enlisted to serve these men - but you are serving them right now. I don't exactly remember the last time the military was actively about defending democracy. It has more often been used to agressively deter democracy for the last half century as near as I can tell.

How long will we keep promoting the same rhetoric of the great and noble military? It ought to be noble, it ought to be great. But it has long been the arm of agressive imperalism and unecessary, dishonest violence serving the interests of a priviledge few at the hands of the many.

I warn you - this is going to offend, because I am going to be extremely blunt:

Please understand that I am not saying that the current situation is of exactly the same brutality or severity as my example. However, I must confess that to me your defense is the equivalent of a German solider turning the gas on at Auschwitz and then saying "I did not enlist to serve the nazis and they do not hold my loyalty." Well that may be true, but I'd still hold that person a war criminal and expect to see him pay for his unspeakable crime. He could have, and should have, refused to obey.

I don't know how you do that... but I don't have angry thoughts, and I don't mean what I've said to sound too harsh - I know its blunt. But I just couldn't do it. I could not compartmentalize myself that way. Maybe if I was sitting somewhere stateside and had not been specifically ask to go murder Iraqis in an illegal war myself, I could separate myself from it. But the day I was order to Iraq to fight would be the day I went to jail.

[Shipwack]

50. No offense taken, but...

I could give you the simple answer, that I'm not currently in Iraq and haven't been given any orders to carry out with regards to the occupation, but that would be disingenuous. But I ask in return, when do I stop being culpable?

If I deserted today, I could stand on the street and pat myself on the back for leaving the Bush-Co war-machine. Then a little old lady would tell me that I was still supporting the war, since my tax dollars were buying the rifles being used to intimidate Iraqi civilians.

If I vowed to stop paying taxes, I could feel pride for outsmarting the chicken hawks in congress, since -my- money wasn't being used in an illegal war that they were too timid to oppose. Then a passing student could point out that the food in my belly and the clothes on my back were manufactured by corporations. Corporations that not only paid taxes, but were profiteering by selling their wares to the government.

If I tore off my clothes, and lived in a box in the woods, I could congratulate myself for refusing to contribute to the war effort in any way... at least until a passing hiker pointed out that evil exists because good men do nothing. Hiding from my country does not excuse me from blame for what wicked men do in my absence.

When do I stop being culpable?

[maxrandb]

47. Absolutely Fantastic Post!!

I nominate this for post of the day!

Your damn right we took an oath to support and defend the Constitution!!

Like anything else, most of us just can't quit when things get a bit rough. I served under Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and now Bush II.

It was the American people that elected these "bozo's", not just the military. Anyone who has a beef with those of us that choose to continue to serve because we love our country, ought to take their complaints to the 51% that voted these people into office.

I've weathered alot. These folks will be gone soon, and will be replaced by someone else, but my love for my country, and the principles it stands for will last. Sorry, but to me....that is worth fighting for!

[Mogvet1]

64. I agree...

I was the Army version the the Mustang- a soldier who began as a PFC and ended as a Chief Warrant Officer 3 (ret.) I too served under Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton...my love of country is as strong as ever, and I've always been proud of my service and thankful for it's opportunities...just my first post and it's two cents worth...

[newyawker99]

67. Hi Mogvet1!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[bonzotex]

41. Don't forget....

Our military is controlled by Civilians. Politicians. All Military members swear to uphold the Constitution, not the reigning political party.

We have a duty as citizens to remove leaders that misuse our military. We have a duty to hold leaders responsible and accountable for such misuse. Otherwise we are complicit as well.

Recruiting is down and many now serving are only there because they've be involuntarily extended or recalled to duty. People join for all sorts of reasons too.

If you need to blame someone for war crimes, start with the officers in the chain of command and work up until you stop at the President's desk. That's coming from a former officer.

Never forgive, never forget, but don't assume everybody in the armed forces is complicit.

[erichzann]

42. If you follow an immoral order, how are you not complicit?

I know these are complicated, delicate (and maybe even painful questions) and I'm trying (believe it or not) to tread lightly, but I think this is a serious subject that we ought to talk about.

I'm honestly asking - how is an individual not complicit when he/she chooses to follow an illegal/immoral order?

Any order having to do with engaging in an lawless and unjustified invasion and occupation of Iraq is both illegal and immoral. So where does that leave us?

[bonzotex]

45. I'm taking you seriously, its a good question

I luckily left the Air Force before the current Iraq debacle. A Big part of why I left after 13 years is I felt the Military was being misused. The average Sailor, Soldier, Airman or Marine doesn't have a real sophisticated political sense. Some do for sure, most don't, however. They are there honestly to do their duty to their Country among a lot of other reasons. If they refuse to follow orders they can go to jail. Some have.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1467384

If they follow an illegal or immoral order they are complicit. Hard as it is to believe though, they may really not know it's illegal. The judge forcing Lyndie England to withdraw her guilty plea was right on. As stupid and distasteful as her actions were, there is a real question as to whether she knew she was doing anything wrong.

As far as invading Iraq as the big illegality, you could just about argue that any war is illegal and immoral. You and I would agree that this one is, but people in the service don't have the luxury of saying they don't want to participate because they don't like it. Indeed, you don't want a military that votes on whether they follow orders or not. As far as most troops know, Congress approved it and the Commander and Chief said go. That's all they need. After that they put their head down and do their jobs as best they can, take care of their comrades and try to survive.

The people that are truly culpable here are the officers and civilians in the chain of command. Not just for Abu Ghraib and other strikingly ugly incidents, but the whole mess. Some war crime investigations should start from the bottom and move up, others should start at the top and end close to the top. The overall illegal immoral decisions were made by the White house and a few freaks in the Administration aided by Congress. Don't blame the poor schmoes across the armed forces because they were there when this kicked off.

[erichzann]

55. Thanks for your thoughful response

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I've been sick. I really appreciate the discussion. I was actually a bit suprised to find how passionate I am about thinking about these questions. I didn't actually realize this was on my mind...

Lots to reflect on - thanks!

[bonzotex]

61. thank you

I just wish everyone in the US would think a little harder, get good information and be a little more passionate. If they did, we wouldn't be in Iraq and we wouldn't have to endure two terms of Chimpy and pals looting the country.

[maxrandb]

48. It is a Good Question

but you have to understand what a lawful, or unlawful order is.

If my CO says "take BMC Davis down and shoot him, because he wrecked my gig", that is an unlawful order and I am obligated not to follow it.

If my CO says "we need to take this hill" (in a combat situation where the Congress has overwhelmingly given the go ahead, I might add) then that is a lawful order.

We can't pick and choose.

It is a difficult situation, but just because you say it is an "immoral" war, does not make it so.

I know some people here won't like this, but this action was approved by OUR representatives...It was ordered by the pResident the American people elected. If it is immoral, then the blood is on the hands of ALL Americans, not just those of us in the military.

Want to change things? Then let's get together and THROW THESE BUMS OUT!

[MrScorpio]

29. I'm a far left liberal who has served in the Air Force for 22 years

In my experience, it's the liberals who know why we have served:

To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, bot foreign and domestic.

We do is, even as today, while those so called conservatives are trying to tear it down.

We do it because we understand the true meaning of service, while those who cheer blindfully from the Peanut Gallery.

We know why we serve. Because we're True Americans.

[bonzotex]

46. Aim High!

Plenty of smart liberals in the Air Force!

[go west young man]

31. Liberal ex-marine here! I too am astonished how they have managed to

slander Kerry, Gore, and Cleland. I think it says a lot about the state of education in the country. We are becoming more dumbed down everyday thanks to the power hungry Repukes.

[UrbScotty]

32. Both of my grandfathers served in World War II, and both were DEMOCRATS!

[wryter2000]

33. Thank you!

:applause:

[Gildor Inglorion]

34. I'm a PROUD liberal Vietnam veteran, old as dirt...

but I don't remember anyone I served with admitting to being a Republican. The shabby treatment and lies dished out about Kerry, Gore, and Cleland, especially coming from the Repuke chickenhawks (like BOTH of Georgia's current US Senators) are offensive and defamatory. That the country is stupid enough to fall for them is a tragedy.

[Bouncy Ball]

35. My husband is a liberal who always votes for Democrats

and he served 12 years active duty in the Army, from the lowest rank to SSG (E-6) when he got out.

Two Purple Hearts in the first Gulf War.

My grandfather flew B-24 bombers over North Africa during WWII in the Army Air Corps, retired as a Colonel and never ever voted for a republican.

[MODemocrat]

36. My three LIberal brothers all served in the military

and there have never been three finer men anywhere. I'm so proud to be from a family of democrats. It would make me want to give it all up, if I ever had to vote for a "neo facist" republican. Not all republicans are like that, thank goodness for that.
:patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[DirtyDawg]

38. I haven't been counting...

...veterans heads lately...come to think of it most of the wingnuts I know never served in anything other than the ANG. They certainly never saw combat. This vet did his four years and never looked back - except for the past few years it never seemed to matter.

What I have found is that most of the guys I stay in touch with, including friends and relatives that retired from the service, are all disgusted with this bunch. And they tell me that the active duty guys they talk to are all pretty much of the same mind - they just have to keep it to themselves if they know what's good for them. Pretty sad state of affairs when those that really know what's going on are too timid to say anything and those that don't know crap from Crisco just want to wave flags and holler 'patriotism'.

[WI_DEM]

40. Liberals have always served honorably in the Armed forces

and as I recall our greatest wartime leader (of the 20th Century) FDR was a liberal.

[geniph]

43. My husband's a Vietnam combat veteran

an ex-Marine, and a liberal Democrat. My father, while growing conservative on some issues in his old age (he's 88) is a WWII Navy veteran and still votes mostly for Democrats. Jim McDermott, one of the most liberal members of the U.S. House, is a Navy veteran. And don't forget the late, lamented David Hackworth.

The liberal vets are out there, they just don't make as much noise as the wingnut ones.

[HawkerHurricane]

44. Well said, Sir!

This senior Non-Com salutes you!

SM1(SW) HawkerHurricane
USN, Ret.

[maxrandb]

51. Oh My God!

You won't be mad if I call you a "skivvy waver" will you?

I always thought what you guys did was cool. I remember being on the IOWA, and we would take fuel from a USNS ship. Always saw you guys flashing sign bridge to bridge (and they had "chicks" on the USNS ships)

Anyway, you'll know what I am talking about when I tell you I was the CO's "bridge to bridge" phone talker, and later, aft look-out, for UNREP.

People that have never spent 6-9 months on a ship, or looked around in every direction and only see water, just don't understand how insignificant you feel. Hell, even the 47,000 ton IOWA was small as a pinhead when you're in the middle of the ocean.

[HawkerHurricane]

52. If you thought Iowa was small...

try a FFG. Small ship, big ocean.
As for being a 'Skivy Waver', I was one of the last...

On a thickly-wooded sponson, where the last projector stands,
The museum pair of hand-flags hanging idly in my hands,
With my jargon half-forgotten, of my stock-in-trade bereft,
I wonder what’s ahead of me – the only Bunting left.
The relics of my ancient craft have vanished one by one.
The cruiser arc, the morse flag and manoeuvring lights have gone
And I hear they’d be useless in the final global war
As the helio, the foghorn and the masthead semaphore.

The mast is sprouting gadgets like a nightmare Christmas tree.
There are whips and stubs and wave-guides where my halyards used to be.
And I couldn’t hoist a tackline through the lunatic array,
For at every height and angle there’s a dipole in the way.

The alert and hawk-eyed signalman is rendered obsolete
By electrically-operated Optics of the Fleet,
And the leaping barracuda or the charging submarine
Can be sighted as blob upon a fluorescent screen.

To delete the human error, to erase a noble breed,
We rely upon a relay, and we pin our faith to Creed,
So we press a button, make a switch and spin a little wheel.
And it’s cent per cent efficient – when we’re on an even keel.

But again I may be needed, for the time will surely come
When we have to talk in silence, and the modern stuff is dumb,
When the signal lantern’s flashing or the flags are flying free –
It was good enough for Nelson, and it’s good enough for me.

[knitter4democracy]

54. That's awesome!

That's a really nice piece. Thank you for giving me more to ponder today.

I've always wondered how it would be if we lost all this technology, how we would communicate, how we could keep things going without all of the antennas and stuff.

[maxrandb]

57. It's Already Happened

Several years back the USS VELLA GULF ran into the USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT while the TR was backing full.

Happened at night, and there were several flashing light messages sent from TR to VELLA GULF, but no one on VELLA GULF was paying attention, or knew what was being said.

[9thkvius]

49. A whole family of liberal Democrat vets here

Not long ago I was sitting in a classroom waiting for class to start when I struck up a conversation with one of the graduate students in my class. She was proud of the fact she was from a military family and talked a lot about her relatives that had served and such.

I too come from a long line of military tradition. I was in the Army, as was my brother (he got back from Iraq this summer) and my father (who trained a lot of men who went off to Vietnam). Most of my male relatives who were fit joined up for World War Two - my grandfather was a submariner and his brother was a Sea-bee. On my mother's side her uncle was a career navy guy who was at Pearl Harbor and also had a destroyer sunk under him off the coast of Okinawa. He later served in Korea too. My dad had other uncles and cousins who served in both the Army and Navy during the war. I also had ancestors who were in World War One, and a few years ago I found my first Civil War ancestor, who fought in the Union Army.

After hearing me talk about all this, she started railing against the "left coast" and the "liberal media" and such, until I pointed out to her that I was myself a liberal and a Democrat. I think I took her by surprise.

I think a lot of people at my current job are not sure what to make of me either, especially considering I am one of the few people in my office who was an enlisted man in the military. I was also one of a handful of people (at least two others are Democrats also) that actually had a relative in Iraq. Oh, the irony.

It is tough to be a liberal in the military these days, but it can be done. Kudos to you, maxrandb.

Airborne all the way!

[Road Scholar]

53. Again, Thank you for your service to this country.

I think it a little like asking if you have to be a republican to be a Christian.

[_ed_]

56. Thanks for posting

Hi everyone, this is my first post here at DU. I recently left active duty in the Army. I attended West Point, served in Iraq from 2003-2004, was awarded the Bronze Star, and left the service with the rank of Captain. And, yes, I'm a liberal.

The point the original poster made here is well taken. One of the things that infuriated me during the presidential campaign was the way Republicans denigrated real patriots. One especially insidious thing was a fundraiser conservatives had at the New York yacht club where they wore those purple heart band-aids. Imagine this! These rich people making fun of wounded veterans at the NY Yacht club!

I don't know why people assume Republicans are the military-friendly party when the obviously don't care about vets. If you look at a comparison of liberal and conservative leaders today, you'll find that MANY more liberals actually served their country in uniform.

That said, when I meet people for the first time, especially during the last election, they would be amazed when I said I was voting for Kerry. I would respond by saying that, being a combat veteran, I could not vote for a man who used his family name to shirk his duty and hide in Texas for the Vietnam war. I then ask what poor kid had to die in Vietnam so George could keep the Texas skies free from the VC. I would get a lot of strange looks after that.

I have a lot of stickers on my car, and my favorite has to be "Combat Vets Against Bush." I live in a very red state, and it really throws the conservative nuts for a loop. They know they must "Support the Troops," but THIS troop doesn't like Bush...Cognitive Dissonance...

Hats off to you maxrandb, thanks for your service and for starting this post. It's good to know that there are still good people out there in uniform.
-ed

[maxrandb]

59. I Salute You

Only met one Bronze Star winner in my life. It was a LCDR who was a First Class Petty Officer on the USS LIBERTY.

I hate to say this, but I hope you have your award well documented. I say this because if you ever decide to run for public office, you might find a bunch of right-wingers saying you didn't really earn it.

Sucks, doesn't it?

Anyway, if you hang around a bit, I'd like to know what your opinion is of having Rush "Pigboy Pill Popper" Limbaugh broadcast on AFRTS.

It's one of my pet peeves. That this hate monger is subsidized by my tax dollars to feed his propaganda to our men and women in uniform. He ought to be in jail, but instead, he's allowed to spread his anti-Democratic Party swill on your and my dime. (we need a disgusted smily)

[_ed_]

60. Thanks

maxrandb,

I do have the citation and actual award certificate. However, I will never run for public office, so I don't think it will be a major issue. I think your point is well-made, though. It's like living in backwards world. If you are a liberal, and have made some military accomplishments, you are "not really" a patriot. But, if you spent your entire life in some right-wing think tank sending others off to die, you are automatically some sort of super patriot. It's amazing the way the right wing has spun this sort of thing. I think it's incumbent upon people like you and me to challenge this argument.

About Rush Limbaugh... I too am troubled by his presence on AFRTS. In my mind, he's just another chicken hawk who dodged service during Vietnam, and is now a cheerleader for war. I also think he has used hate speech on more than several occasions. For these reasons, I don't understand why he is on AFRTS. I suppose one could say that the military is mostly Republican, so they are catering to their audience, but the fact that taxes pay for AFRTS makes that irrelevant. There should at least be equal time for a liberal voice, or in my opinion, no politics at all on AFRTS.

[maxrandb]

66. The Argument for Rush on AFRTS Holds No Water

Thanks for your response. I have heard that AFRTS is simply giving the troops what they want by providing the Rush Limbaugh show.

Only problem with that is that anyone who have ever served in the military will tell you that the "military is not a Democracy".

I'm sure if you took a poll, you would find that a majority would like to have Girls Gone Wild videos, the Playboy Channel, and Howard Stern. I would also bet that if you took a poll, you'd find a hell of a lot of troops that don't want to be in Iraq, or would prefer hot meals instead of MRI's.

But we don't have a Democracy in the military. We follow orders, we don't do polls and give troops what they want.

Yet somehow, a woman flashing her breasts is offensive, but it's perfectly acceptable for an "anal cyst, pill-popping, thrice divorced moralist, ass-pickle" to tell my shipmates that I am a "communist, socialist, wish more troops got killed, anti-American" liberal.

Lovely, isn't it?

[Jivenwail]

58. Thank you for coming forward

And letting people know that there are those in uniform that don't follow the hypocritical path of the GOP.

My husband retired from the Navy after serving over 20 years. For most of that time, he lived and worked among other uniformed personnel who were die hard republicans - my husband was not. But they got along and managed to have civil discussions among one another. When he joined the civilian workforce, he joined a solid company with a good reputation and went to work happy to have been recognized for the years of service he gave his country and to have been given a good job and a salary worthy of his experience.

However, his "experience" turned into a nightmare when he was lumped together with a group of hardcore, right wing fanatics who listened, all day, to right wing talk radio. During the election, as evenly and honestly as he could, my wonderful husband let his moderate, democratic politics be heard. The result? My husband was barraged and berated for his politics. He tried, in vain, to combat the relentlessness of their unkind words and name calling for almost a year before he could no longer stand it - and he has left that job. They made his workdays a living, breathing hell. I saw my wonderful, proud husband come home night after night miserable. He couldn't function in his job because the multitude of both civilian, former military and Navy officers he worked with could not, would not cut him an ounce of slack.

And if that was not enough of an insult, one of the men he worked with turned out to be a Swift Boat Veteran! A Swift Boat Veteran! He tried to look the other way, but just could no longer work side by side with these people, their mean spiritedness and lack of fair play.

My husband is now back in the job market. I'm sure he will find another job, hopefully soon. But he has been terribly jaded by his experience and no longer even wants to discuss politics in any way, shape or form.

So I applaud you maxrandb. And thank you for your service.

[GoneOffShore]

62. I was a CO during Vietnam

but some of my best friends either enlisted or were drafted.
I never called anyone a baby killer nor did I spit on returning vets. My dad had served in WW II, so I understood the concept of 'service'. Vietnam was a war that I couldn't support. Despite that, I always had the greatest respect for the guys who felt they had to go.

[moondust]

63. Another blue veteran.

Army 6 years.

Finding it increasingly difficult to justify risking young people's lives in the defense of a country gone so far astray on so many fronts. At the very least...let the Bushbot children bleed and die for their parents' profit-and-power mongering.

[john doe jersey]

65. Right on

I came across this quote in an article written for CNN by Mark Shields. Every time I hear someone question the patriotism of people like John Kerry, Max Cleland, and sometimes myself (liberal dem/Air Force Civilian) I think of this quote and it really makes my blood boil.

"Patriotism today has very little to do with what most of us learned in American history class. The patriot is no longer the admirable citizen who places the common good before his own individual comfort, who sacrifices herself for the safety and survival of her country. That definition is now quaint and obsolete. Patriotism, as redefined by tough-minded, tough-talking hawks, is not action, patriotism is ideology. This new, debased patriotism requires no personal risk, no sacrifice, no inconvenience."

I'm sure most of you have seen that email that went around during the election in regards to the military records of different politicians, democrat and republican. While it wasn't a real good sample (meaning it was obviously skewed) it still painted a picture that makes the above quote ring more true.

[newyawker99]

68. Hi john doe jersey!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast: