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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:36 PM
Original message
A fun little religious quiz
Question:

What scripture is this from?

===

And he taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art Knowing, the Wise.

He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what secrets in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

And when We said to the angels: Make obesiance to Adam they did obesiance, but Satan (did not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden abd eat from it a plentious (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be one of the unjust.

===

Answer:

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The Qur'an, Sura II, verses 31-35.

Sounds familiar, right?

I guess maybe Christianity and Islam are not so wildly different as some fundies would have us believe, eh?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. The big Semitic religions are all interconnected
That whore of an Archangel, Gabriel, is in all three!

:o
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pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. "whore" lmao eom
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Not surprising since Archangel names were titular names for Jewish priests
Gabriel and Michael are titular names.

Take Michael, for instance:

http://www.abu.nb.ca/Courses/NewTestament/Hebrews/Melch.htm

Found among the Dead Sea Scrolls is a sectarian text in which Melchizedek is understood as an angel, probably identical to Michael and the Prince of Light.


Michael was the title from the Zadok line of priests. The Michael-Zadok....Melchizedek.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, Islam is Abrahamic.
Many religions are, including Christianity and Judaism. Muslims reveres much of the Bible, consider Christ a prophet, but think the apostles were wrong to elevate him to the status of God. They call the Qu'ran "the last testament".
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ah, the price of knowledge
Self awareness can suck. That is the gift/curse of eating from the tree of knowledge. Free will carries a lot of responsibility. Too bad most people can't handle it.




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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. "This one begat that one...that one begat this one...begat begat begat...
...then low and behold somebody said some shit...I don't understand none of it." Dole Hargraves from Slingblade. :D
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Baconfoot Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. I can't tell whether I find this post condescending or depressing.
If it's really necessary to post this, I find it depressing.
Otherwise, I find it condescending.
I suppose I'm leaning towards depressing.

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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Elucidate, please. Or, huh?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I suspect
that it was in reference to the thought that it is possible that a large segment of DUers are so unfamiliar with Islam that they would not recognize that verse. I believe that the OP is correct in assuming that few DUers would have read the holy book of the Islamic people. It makes the thought of brotherhood/sisterhood with the Muslim world a bit more difficult when we recognize that we accept the corporate media and republican leaders' definition of Islam .... rather than taking the time to explore a beautiful book ourselves.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. If there is a large segment of DUers unfamiliar with Islam
I am a part of that club. Just started reading the Qur'an for the first time, along with a little guidebook to help. I was surprised to see so many similarities.

So if that's condescending, then I gues I'm condescending. :shrug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. I'm not sure
why the other person made the comment on it being potentially "condescending." I note that I did not repeat that part. I think that there is a large segment of DU and the general public, that is not familiar with Islam. I would not call it a crime, but it does not make sense to me. If we want to make a serious attempt to break down the walls between people who are from any of the many different camps, be it western; Middle Eastern; Islamic; Christian; Jewish; atheist; etc, etc, it makes sense that we take the time to learn about each other's most dearly held beliefs.

That does not make me condescending.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. A false environment of threat and fear has been imposed,...I believe,...
,...causing people to sense a threat to their sense of being who they choose or want to be or are.

That threat is imposed by those who seek to grow power through devisiveness. We are reacting to that devisiveness,...having no encouragement to reach out and accept let alone understand one another.

The Dahli Lama (sp? so sorry) wrote an excellent book I read years ago about how our PERSONAL spiritual beliefs have basic common threads that make us whole. Only those who seek power over humanity imposes breaches upon our wholeness.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. I've been looking into it for a while now.
I'm convinced it's no coincidence.

Here's a great book that stirred my interest in the subject:

Abraham: A Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-0060525096-0

The horror! Someone was perceived to be condescending on DU? Even if it wasn't the intent? I'm shocked, I tells ya!

:sarcasm:
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. given Muslims believe in the same God
why would it surprise you?
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Well ...
Since Christians believe in JESUS as THE god, whereas Jews and Muslims do NOT believe that Jesus is THE god, then I suppose we could conclude that Muslims, and Jews, do NOT believe in the 'same' god as christians ....

Does that surpise you ? ...
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I always thought he was supposed to be the son of god
as opposed to God himself and Jews, Muslims and Christians DO beleive in the same God they just disgaree about certain facets, all thinking Jews, Christians and Muslims acknowledge this
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. That crazy thing called 'Trinity' ...
Like a snake eating itself, in both directions ....

This is what Gibbons says about the development of Trinitarian theology, and it's derivation of Platonic philosophy ..

From "The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire"m Ch. 21 : http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/cntnt21.htm

The Trinitarian controversy.
The schism of the Donatists was confined to Africa; the more diffusive mischief of the Trinitarian controversy successively penetrated into every part of the Christian world. The former was an accidental quarrel, occasioned by the abuse of freedom; the latter was a high and mysterious argument, derived from the abuse of philosophy. From the age of Constantine to that of Clovis and Theodoric, the temporal interests both of the Romans and barbarians were deeply involved in the theological disputes of Arianism. The historian may therefore be permitted respectfully to withdraw the veil of the sanctuary, and to deduce the progress of reason and faith, of error and passion, from the school of Plato to the decline and fall of the empire.

The system of Plato. Before Christ 360.
The genius of Plato, informed by his own meditation or by the traditional knowledge of :he priests of Egypt,(11) had ventured to explore the mysterious nature of the Deity. When he had elevated his mind to the sublime contemplation of the first self-existent, necessary cause of the universe, the Athenian sage was incapable of conceiving how the simple unity of his essence could admit the infinite variety of distinct and successive ideas which compose the model of the intellectual world; how a Being purely incorporeal could execute that perfect model, and mould with a plastic hand the rude and independent chaos. The vain hope of extricating himself from these difficulties, which must ever oppress the feeble powers of the human mind, might induce Plato to consider the divine nature under the threefold modification - of the first cause, the reason, or The LogosLogos, and the soul or spirit of the universe. His poetical imagination sometimes fixed and animated these metaphysical abstractions; the three archical or original principles were represented in the Platonic system as three Gods, united with each other by a mysterious and ineffable generation; and the Logos was particularly considered under the more accessible character of the Son of an Eternal Father, and the Creator and Governor of he world. Such appear to have been the secret doctrines which were cautiously whispered in the gardens of the Academy; and which, according to the more recent disciples of Plato, could not be perfectly understood till after an assiduous study of thirty years.(12)

taught in the scool of Alexandria. Before Christ 300.
The arms of the Macedonians diffused over Asia and Egypt the language and learning of Greece; and the theological system of Plato was taught, with less reserve, and perhaps with some improvements, in the celebrated school of Alexandria. (13) A numerous colony of Jews had been invited, by the favour of the Ptolemies, to settle in their new capital.(14) While the bulk of the nation practised the legal ceremonies, and pursued the lucrative occupations of commerce, a few Hebrews of a more liberal spirit devoted their lives to religious and philosophical contemplation. (15) They cultivated with diligence, and embraced with ardour, the theological system of the Athenian sage. But their national pride would have been mortified by a fair confession of their former poverty: and they boldly marked, as the sacred inheritance of their ancestors, the gold and jewels which they had so lately stolen from their Egyptian masters. One hundred years before the birth of Christ, a philosophical treatise, which manifestly betrays the style and sentiments of the school of Plato, was produced by the Alexandrian Jews, and unanimously received as a genuine and valuable relic of the inspired Wisdom of Solomon. (16) A similar union of the Mosaic faith and the Grecian philosophy distinguishes the works of Philo, which were composed, for the most part, under the reign of Augustus.(17) The material soul of the universe(18) might offend the piety of the Hebrews; but they applied the character of the Logos to the Jehovah of Moses and the Patriarchs; and the Son of God was introduced upon earth, under a visible and even human appearance, to perform those familiar offices which seem incompatible with the nature and attributes of the Universal Cause.(19)

Revealed by the Apostle St John, A.D. 97.
The eloquence of Plato, the name of Solomon, the authority of the school of Alexandria, and the consent of the Jews and Greeks, were insufficient to establish the truth of a mysterious doctrine, which might please, but could not satisfy, a rational mind. A prophet, or apostle, inspired by the Deity, can alone exercise a lawful dominion over the faith of mankind: and the theology of Plato might have been for ever confounded with the philosophical visions of the Academy, the Porch, and the Lyccum, if the name and divine attributes of the Logos had not been confirmed by the celestial pen of the last and most sublime of the Evangelists. (20) The Christian Revelation, which was consummated under the reign of Nerva, disclosed to the world the amazing secret, that the LOGOS, who was with God from the beginning, and was God, who had made all things, and for whom all things had been made, was incarnate in the person of Jesus of Nazareth; who had been born of a virgin, and suffered death on the cross. Besides the general design of fixing on a perpetual basis the divine honours of Christ, the most ancient and respectable of the ecclesiastical writers have ascribed to the evangelic theologian a particular intention to confute two opposite heresies, which disturbed the peace of the primitive church.(21)
The Ebionites and Docetes I. The faith of the Ebionites, (22) perhaps of the Nazarenes,(23) was gross and imperfect. They revered Jesus as the greatest of the prophets, endowed with supernatural virtue and power. They ascribed to his person and to his future reign all the predictions of the Hewbrew oracles which relate to the spiritual and everlasting kingdom of the promised Messiah. (24) Some of them might confess that he was born of a virgin; but they obstinately rejected the preceding existence and divine perfections of the logos, or Son of God, which are so clearly defined in the Gospel of St. John. About fifty years afterwards, the Ebionites, whose errors are mentioned by Justin Martyr, with less severity than they seem to deserve, (25) formed a very inconsiderable portion of the Christian name. II. The Gnostics, who were distinguished by the epithet of Docetes, deviated into the contrary extreme, and betrayed the human, while they asserted the divine nature of Christ. Educated in the school of Plato, accustomed to the sublime idea of the Logos, they readily conceived that the brightest Aeon, or Emanation of the Deity, might assume the outward shape and visible appearances of a mortal;(26) but they vainly pretended that the imperfections of matter are incompatible with the purity of a celestial substance. While the blood of Christ yet smoked on Mount Calvary, the Docetes invented the impious and extravagant hypothesis, that, instead of issuing from the womb of the Virgin,(27) he had descended on the banks of the Jordan in the form of perfect manhood; that he had imposed on the senses of his enemies and of his disciples; and that the ministers of Pilate had wasted their impotent rage on an airy phantom, who seemed to expire on the cross, and, after three days, to rise from the dead.(28)

Mysterious nature of the Trinity.
The divine sanction which the Apostle had bestowed on the fundamental principle of the theology of Plato encouraged the learned proselytes of the second and third centuries to admire and study the writings of the Athenian sage, who had thus marvellously anticipated one of the most surprising discoveries of the Christian revelation. The respectable name of Plato was used by the orthodox,(29) and abused by the heretics,(30) as the common support of truth and error: the authority of his skilful commentators and the science of dialectics were employed to justify the remote consequences of his opinions, and to supply the discreet silence of the inspired writers. The same subtle and profound questions concerning the nature, the generation, the distinction, and the equality of the three divine persons of the mysterious Triad, or Trinity,(31) were agitated in the philosophical and in the Christian schools of Alexandria. An eager spirit of curiosity urged them to explore the secrets of the abyss; and the pride of the professors and of their disciples was satisfied with the science of words. But the most sagacious of the Christian theologians, the great Athanasius himself, has candidly confessed (32) that, whenever he forced his understanding to meditate on the divinity of the Logos, his toilsome and unavailing efforts recoiled on themselves; that the more he thought, the less he comprehended; and the more he wrote, the less capable was he of expressing his thoughts. In every step of the inquiry we are compelled to feel and acknowledge the immeasurable disproportion between the size of the object and the capacity of the human mind. We may strive to abstract the notions of time, of space, and of matter, which so closely adhere to all the perceptions of our experimental knowledge. But as soon as we presume to reason of infinite substance, of spiritual generation, as often as we deduce any positive conclusions from a negative idea, we are involved in darkness, perplexity, and inevitable contradiction. As these difficulties arise from the nature of the subject, they oppress, with the same insuperable weight, the philosophic and the theological disputant; but we may observe two essential and peculiar circumstances which discriminated the doctrines of the catholic church from the opinions of the Platonic school.

-snip-

More at above link : This book is a masterpiece ...

Athanasius is considered the 'father' of the Trinity. due to his advocacy of the system .... but even HE was troubled by it's inconstant notions ....
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #41
51. Not all Christians believe that--thanks H2OMan! nt
Edited on Wed May-04-05 09:23 AM by blondeatlast
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. I wish you left it.
You were correct -- not all Christians believe that.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. It's a beautiful book, WP
Edited on Tue May-03-05 08:32 PM by Clark2008
I've read it twice. My ex husband is an Arab Muslim (well, he was raised Muslim, he doesn't really practice it anymore).
Which study guide are you using, the Shi'ite or Sunnah guide?
If you have any questions, or if something doesn't make sense, PM me. I know it almost from cover to cover, even though I'm Christian.
Oh - you'll enjoy Surahs 5 and 9. You'll see why.

P.S. I admit, I studied it from a Sunnah point of view. I'm not as familiar with the Shi'ite perspective.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. It may not be the best giude
It is one of those 'Very Short Introductions' books they sell by the register. This one is by a Princeton Professor named Michael Cook. It's been helpful thus far, but kinda proves I'm a dilletante about this. The Qur'an I am reading does not indicate from which sect it descends. It was published by Tahrike Tarsile, if that helps.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Michael Cook is good, though.
Edited on Tue May-03-05 08:47 PM by Clark2008
And the Qur'an is the same, but interpreted differently, just like the various denominations of Christianity. There are guides that come with the Qur'an that help you study it from whichever viewpoint. I have three from the Sunnah: alms and fasting, purification and supererogatory.

It's probably just a basic overview guide.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. It does the history backwards
To wit: It covers the modern stuff and moves back in time. Really helpful way to approach the study.
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think it was an interesting post.
But it made me think .. (Owww and does it hurt!) but in all actuality I don't think that God is the problem. All he really wanted was for people to love one another and don't judge lest yeeee be judged and turn the other cheek ... and all that. It is man who has made him into a nut and a trouble maker.. no? I don't know, I have a headache from thinking.

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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Problem with Islam, Judaism, and Christianity
Is the samething: each believe their religion was given by God and is true and others are false. And based on Abraham's crap for social control, tyranny, and ignorance.

Islam is a little different in that Jewish and Christian prophets are honored but they are caught in that same tradition.
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Dob Bole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Do you believe all the others are false?
Edited on Tue May-03-05 03:33 PM by Dob Bole
Probably. The same criticism you apply to adherents applies to you as well. You think you're right and all the others are wrong.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Touched a nerve did I?
Typical. Who said I was right? In my view ALL religions are wrong yet have some redeeming quality. In general they are right as for a higher power, good morals to live by, and honoring a higher power but the rest is wrong since most religions disagree on those points.
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Dob Bole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. No.
I was merely pointing out what seemed to be a logical fallacy in your argument.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Fallacy?
I was merely pointing out a problem in those 3 religions, namely, the excess need for control over people's lives even non-believers. Whether they are false or not wasn't the point. My point was they has beliefs that allow a very small group to make decisions in their favor and screws over other people.
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Dob Bole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Ah.
I'll take your word for it...sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. That's it?
You'll take my word for it? Oh well. So much for a good discussion.

At least we still have freedom of religion so both our faiths are protected.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. The major schism
in the religions of the Book come from the fact that God promised Israel to the descendants of Abraham.

Unfortunately, Abraham had a son by Sarah and a son by Hagar. The Jews trace their lineage from Sarah, but the Muslems trace theirs from Hagar.

"And who is to say if either or both is wrong? Not I."
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. I have a copy of the Koran, and it reads just like the Old Testament
It is really quite stunning.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Why stunning? Where do you think Mohammed got his ideas?
He cobbled together his religion from Judaism, Christianity, and a smattering of local religions. It's no more surprising that Islam points back to Abraham and Jesus, than it is that Mormonism does. Historically, branching off from established religions is a good way to gain converts to a new religion.

The surprising thing is that even when a huckster creates a weird religion out of wholecloth, it still can get a following. Witness L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. :eyes:
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Exactly
Was wondering why everyone found this so mysterioso.

Mohammed lived in the 500s. He was a learned man. He read the religous texts of the time and wrote his own interpretation.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Um, better read up on the backstory
Mohammed was supposedly illiterate. He supposedly wrote the Quran by divine inspiration. That being said the society and culture he existed in was a learned one. In fact Arabic culture at the time was rather advanced and maintained a rather well developed record of history and science.
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Muslims say he was illiterate
Based on an interpretation of a passage and also to bolster the claims that he was a divinely inspired prophet.

Since I am an agnostic I tend to believe he was literate, read other works or had them read to them and wrote his own versions.

All I know for sure, at least as sure as an agnostic can be, is there is no other way to explain the similarities between the works than exposure to the prior work.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Illiterate
does not translate to ignorant. For example, in the 1800s, a large number of Americans were functionally illiterate; it does not follow that they were unfamiliar with the bible .... just that they couldn't read or write. Likewise, the Holy Prophet of Islam was an intelligent man, but he was illiterate.
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I will agree he was probably illiterate
And yes I know that illiterate does not equal ignorant.

But I will not say with certainty that he was illiterate just becaus his followers say he was to support their belief in divine inspiration.

The guy lived 1500 years ago. There is no way either one of us can know if he could read or not. We just have the words of his followers on that.

Not to be a quibbling asshole about it. I just have a problem with unproveable absolute statements. :-)
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Yes. Illiteracy does NOT dictate whether or not one is knowledgeable.
Mohammad was quite acute about the workings of human operations of his day. He was also very articulate about the experiences. The man couldn't read,...but, he obviously had a stunning grasp of reality,...and was able to influence humanity via his observations.

Of course, Jesus was illiterate, as well. Both Mohammad and Jesus had other men memorialize their dictations. Too bad we didn't have videos back then,...to capture their message, their "vision". But, I feel confident that both were men "for the people" and against tyranny/oppression over people. They genuinely love humanity and the human potential. I just know that.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Actually
we know from the gospels that the young Jesus opened the scrolls and read from them. Hence he was literate. Other than that, you are correct.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
21. Um Will, the fundies are the most wildly uninformed people on the planet
Why would you think they would be on the mark regarding Islam.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all refered to collectively as the Abrahamic religions. That is they share the same basis for belief. The God created by the supposed individual named Abraham. Their stories and legends all derive from the same basic source.

The Quran considers the bible to be a valid religious text. Muddled and corrupted over time. But the stories are basically right. They also consider Jesus and Mary to be significant individuals, if not the divine entities other sects make them out to be.

There is far more in common than this single verse.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Islam's view of the prophet Jesus
is in line with many of the early Jewish/Christian communities.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. I thought most denied him as even prophet,...
,...but rather cast him as a recalcitrant, a heretic, crucifying him for what crime?

They always murder the visionaries. They always do. They treat the best of humanity as an enemy,...'cause the best of humanity IS AN ENEMY to their diseased and sick minds/hearts/souls.

But, they can NEVER stop the human spirit which NEVER ends, pushing humanity forward.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. I did not make
myself clear: by "early Jewish/Christian communities," I am speaking specifically about the numerous communities of Jesus' followers, and those they attracted.
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eissa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
34. Funny story
or sad, depending on your view:

One of my colleagues went to see our boss, who happens to be Muslim, to wish him well on a holiday marking the day Muslims believe Abraham was to sacrifice Ismael ("Eid al-Ahda" -- sorry if I misspelled!) The secretary in the office, a proud and ignorant member of the religious right, said the boss was not in and asked what my colleague needed. The colleague told her why he was there and she snorted, "Oh those people don't believe in that -- that story is from the Christian Bible." When he pointed out that Muslims do indeed believe many of the same things as Christians (and Jews!) believe and that the Qu'ran contains many of the same stories as the Bible, she became rather ruffled and said "well they stole" most of the passages from "the Christian Bible." To which the colleague responded, "just like the Christians 'stole' the Old Testament from the Torah?" She got that "deer in the headlights" look and he had to explain that the Torah is the Jewish holy book which the Old Testament of the Bible is based on.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Christians DON'T believe that. Christians (and Jews)...
believe that God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, not Ishmael.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Which is the root cause of the Jewish/Muslim wars
That became blood wars.

It's so ironic that, in its most basic form, the tyranny, strife and mayhem in the Middle East is basically nothing but an extended Cain and Abel or Hatfields and McCoys.

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eissa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #36
55. I should have clarified
I know that the Muslims believe it was Ismael that was to be sacrificed, but the freeper was saying that "those people" don't believe in ANY part of that story. She didn't know of the similarities between the three holy books.
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dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
40. You wacky goyim
:eyes:
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
45. I've never read the Koran but I guessed it before looking at the answer.
Mostly inductive but some deduction too...
interesting.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
48. The Koran contains Christian writing than the Constantian Bible doesn't
The Koran retains the books of the Bible that were taken out at Nycea. See "Lost Books of the Bible" whenever it comes on Discovery.

Also, the Ethopian version of Christianity did not suffer the Constantinian revisions.
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Doc Bottom Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
49. Read the Qu'ran
Edited on Tue May-03-05 09:49 PM by Doc Bottom
Here's http://quranbrowser.com/ Yaqub. It has nine different English translations and the transliterated Arabic and can be set up to display them more or less however you like. You can ask it for a particular sura and verse, by numbers or by title, and it can also search by keyword.
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Chomp Donating Member (602 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
53. They are all...
...sub-fairy stories of a larger fairy story.

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HEIL PRESIDENT GOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
54. I caught it right away.
I'm not a religious person but I study culture. People will shriek at you but you can actually map religion out as a cultural cline through the populous areas from Britain to Japan. The whole thing with names and true forms pulls Islam just a tad closer to Eastern religion than Christianity is, and Judaism is microscopically worked in between those two.

If you zoom out and look at it from the upper stratosphere, or downtown Oakland for that matter, you can see that Chinese Buddhists and traditional Catholics both go to church on Sunday, where incense is burned, use rosary beads, follow a similar number of similar commandments, and have monks with shaved heads and robes and a reputation for doing funny stuff to boys.

To me religious people are all the same and of course they have to fight over there tiny little distinctions, just like gang bangers or frat boys for that matter.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
56. From an email...
Text of an email I received some time ago…

This is eerie,,,,,

This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages... The following verse is from the Quran, (the Islamic Bible)

Quran (9:11) -- For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.
Note the verse number!!!!!)


I did an online search of the Qur'an... this was my response to the above email...

The verse quoted in your email is not from the Qur'an. Furthermore, a fearsome eagle, or any other kind of eagle, is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an. Below are three legitimate translations of Chapter 9, Verse 11 of the Qur'an....

009.011
YUSUFALI: But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
PICKTHAL: But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
SHAKIR: But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.

Whoever keeps sending that bogus, racist, bigoted email around really should find something better to do.... maybe they should brush up on their reading, and also think about repentance, charity, and brotherhood. Wonder how these so-called 'Christians' would feel if the Bible were desecrated in such a manner?

PS - Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11

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