Is it impossible to persuade or to communicate with Bush supporters?

[kentuck]

Have they drank so much kool aid that they cannot be touched with rational arguments ? Would we just be wasting our breath trying to communicate with these people? Are they so enmeshed in their partisan cult that they are now untouchables? And can we win if we are not able to "rescue" some of these "victims" of the cult propaganda? How would we start to get their attention?

[LoZoccolo]

1. It depends.

Of course I know how it feels to just get shut down by one of them, but we have to do what we can anyways and find out for each person we deal with.

[movonne]

2. They have to be hurting a lot more , which will probably come, but

too late (if not too late now). This country is in a mess that I can see no end too.

[punpirate]

3. Not so easy...

... to change the mind of the true believer. I'm of the opinion that the only way in which that happens is if they are personally affected, negatively, by the policies they espoused.

Argument and rational, logical thought doesn't penetrate too well. They've got to feel that the shit is coming down so hard they should wear a hat. :)

[kentuck]

5. From my interpretation of recent history....

Repubs are quick to turn to third Parties when they are betrayed or victims of ruses by Republican presidents. If we could just find another Ross Perot...... Hmmmm-mmmmm...

[KharmaTrain]

15. Let The Fundies Soar!!!

If there's any group in the GOOP hive that's restless, it's these people. I'm hoping they continue to overplay and puff up their balls...creating some real problems in the Repugnican party.

These people feel they are owed a lot by the party and they're not gonna sit at the back of the tent anymore. This is gonna play out when some Repugnicans aren't as worth as others...and you can see that litmus test happening right now. Next year the church voter sheets are gonna be an important factor in a lot of primaries and depending on how many actually make it to the general election, I suspect this trend could roll into 2008 as well. The more the merrier as it'll create greater divisions between the fundies, the fiscal conservatives and whatever moderates are left.

[punpirate]

17. Don't see any such candidates on...

... the horizon....

Perot's attraction was for a fair number of those who'd voted Republican, but were of a decidedly Libertarian streak. Someone such as Ron Paul of Texas might make a similar candidate, but I doubt he's going to run any time soon, if at all. The Libertarians themselves keep offering up idiots like Bednarik, so they'll not obtain much traction as a third party.

Ultimately, the Democrats can do anything they want, if they will only repudiate the party's gradual drift to the right in the effort to chase the votes of the rightward-leaning middle.

[kentuck]

22. Should we start pushing Ron Paul for President ?

As a counter political movement, with the assumption he would draw more Repub voters than Democratic voters, although he would get both, I am sure. However, like Perot, he would hurt Repubs just a little more, in my opinion. But this may be a strategy that needs further study....serious study.

[Chipper Chat]

23. Get Steve Forbes to run as an indy.

Appeal to his gigantic ego. Result: GOP split

[kentuck]

24. He would attack Bush's huge deficits and irresponsible fiscal policies..

But that is on the right track... :)

[gpandas]

4. probably ...

there is some % who are unreachable. eighty ton ninety?

[ananda]

6. deprivation

Deprive them of the two things that they thrive on: power and money.

Boycott!

[getmeouttahere]

21. Amen to that!......

the leaders of this cult in particular only care about power & money...how else do you explain their ability to sleep at night with all the misery in this country and the world...we need massive boycotts...smaller versions worked well back in the 30's, 40's & 50's, when blacks would boycott stores they weren't allowed to work in, for example

[Kitka]

7. It’s possible,

When you can discuss something that is hurting them too…. I have personally found the ability to connect with a couple of conservatives that are more libertarian leaning and not of the neo-con variety, nor the extreme religious zealots. Some of them are just as upset as we are about the administration, but still "support Bush". Their support is not so strong it can't be shaken.

[MadHound]

8. No, it's not impossible, not even improbably

And it will get easier as time goes by, and the Bushit starts to really pile up.

I live in a very red county, in a red state, and managed to convince some of my neighbors, one time Bush supporters, to vote for Kerry. As the true scope of the disaster that is Bush becomes more apparent during his second term, more and more people are jumping ship.

Yes, there are always going to be a die hard core group that will back the man-chimp no matter what. But that minority of people is rapidly dwindling. One reason why the RW spin machine is becoming every more shrill, with even more diversionary tactics than usual. They realize that they're on a sinking ship, but feel the need to keep up appearances for as long as possible.

[Warpy]

9. When you find one that shouts

words from Chairman Lamebawl out of context, just to drown out your words, get very quiet and tell them you're sorry their momma never taught them any manners and that you can't cope with anyone that unchristian and walk away. That's all you can do. They're cultists.

Dittoing out of context is a big giveaway to a brain that does not want to think.

However, you can talk to the rest of them. Again, if they get loud, get quieter and ask they why they're yelling. Cognitive dissonance is painful, so exploit it when you can.

[BillZBubb]

10. Bad choice of words.

Bushbots are consumed by rationalizations. That's the only way their upside down worldview can possibly stick together. They rationalize every failure as someone else's fault, not Bush's.

You meant can they be changed by rational argument. No, they can't. Since their whole worldview is a house of cards, they cannot admit any reality into the situation or it all collapses. They'll resist that forever.

As someone else pointed out, some of them will be reached when BushCo policies directly and negatively affect them. At that time, they'll be receptive to the truth. Of course, once their situation has stablilized they'll go right back to their previous ways.

[kentuck]

13. True..

Thanks.

[ihelpu2see]

11. the most difficult to talk to are the very "Born Again" pro theocracy.

the others use Why not support Bush because: a) If I don't I'm not supporting the troops.
b) He made the mess let him clean it up.

I could not believe that one. Then the ever present. C) I'm fiscally conservative...

Then I say, and how has Bush and Co. been fiscally conservative in the past 4+ years.

And all I can here is Crickets chirping.

[burn the bush]

12. at this time they are in heavy denial that they are responsible for the

mess of the US and world. They must continue to deny that we are right or face a break down as they learn the truth.


the truth is coming

they are in that stage like a spoiled child who's behavior gets worse before it gets better as they increase their antics to get their way. Just ignore them and let them scream and cry and as they like to add "nash their teeth" but eventually they will face the truth. They may not admit it's their fault, but they will turn on shrub too.

the end is near....the end of the Bush regime that is.

[Bellamia]

29. The end is near???????

I sure hope so, but in the meantime, I've accepted that there can be no intelligent discussion, and limit my comments to uh hu, hmmm, really, and excuse me. You'd be amazed at how often I need a restroom, LOL, when I return things have calmed down, sorta. And so it goes!;>)

[liberalmike27]

14. Well

I guess this thread is as good a place as anyone to recount my weekend experiences with my Aunt and Uncle.

To start off with, they have both been lifetime democrats, pretty much liberal through and through. They live in Texas, and have been married all of their life. An odd quirk is that a daughter is actually involved in an interracial marriage, though this has nothing to do with it, other than you'd think they would be even more liberal.

But they've converted to full-on Bush fans now. They both profess to be religious, and when in town they attend a local church, where I suspect they get a lot of rhetoric from the Republican Party.

I try my best to do what I can when they are here, I'm sure it is a tiresome experience for them, but they are a classic example of brainwashing. For instance, my Uncle said "I think Kerry really screwed up tying himself to Ted Kennedy." I asked, "Why?" He said, "he's just too liberal." I asked "Really, what policies of his do you think are too liberal." This smart man, a high school teacher all of his life said, "I don't know, he's just too liberal." Clearly he'd been taught by the "liberal" media that Ted was a liberal, and that it was a bad thing, but he had absolutely no idea what things he agreed with him or disagreed with him on.

The second notable example has to do with Katie Couric. She's been a target of such extreme right-wingers as Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter, who called her an affable Eva Braun. I personally have never found her to be slanted either way, though I have heard her sternly question a few Republicans. I've also heard her insult Michael Moore, so I don't see much bias.

I mentioned Katie while talking about how the morning shows, Without prompting in two different conversations they both said in almost identical wording "I just can't stand that Katie Couric." Once again, after asking why I got no specific examples, or any sort of reasons that they might have had problems with her. Nothing.

Both of these exemplify what we are up against. Thoughts have been inserted in their heads by the media, reinforced through their church buddies who watch the same right-wing media. So in answer to your question, I'd keep trying, but don't expect too much luck. They are ensconced tightly in a cocoon of deception, and seem comfortable within it, without information, and closed off to any information about Bush they may get. They are convinced of the media's liberalness, which gives them license to dismiss anything about Bush that is bad, and agree with all of the complimentary stuff that is aired. It's a sweet deal which allows them to get away with anything.

A final mention is worthy of one other thing. When talking about the war, my Aunt said "Mike Sometimes I think," and hesitated a bit not really wanting to say it but went ahead "I think you are just anti-American." I replied "This is so classic, and all part of your conditioning. I love my country, but I absolutely have disagreed with everything this government has done. It is destroying our country, and the war is an unjust war. I can make the distinction between our government and my country, which I love, and this is a time-weathered technique that was used by Hitler, and numerous leaders all over the world, in various times. Start a war, and call any opponents cowards and anti-(country in question)." She quickly asserted she didn't want to talk about it anymore, as I was a bit agitated to have my own Aunt accuse me of this.

But clearly the brainwashing of this most secretive administration in history by their wholly owned media, is deep and broad, and their myrmidons are out there repeating their assigned phrases and accusations just as they were programmed to do. When these two relatively smart people are so oblivious to what is going on, to what is happening to them, then I don't hold much hope for those with smaller IQ's. This is a sad State we are in.

[kentuck]

19. Excellent point, liberalmike...

"They are convinced of the media's liberalness, which gives them license to dismiss anything about Bush that is bad, and agree with all of the complimentary stuff that is aired. It's a sweet deal which allows them to get away with anything."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. I first became aware of the brainwashing

after 9/11, when a friend of my stepfather's said out of the blue, "You know, I think Bush has really grown into his role since 9/11."

Gee, where had I heard that before? :grr:

Many, many years ago, I read a book called Escape from Freedom, written in the early years of World War II. It was psychologist Erich Fromm's analysis of why Germany went for the Nazis, and his main thesis was "Freedom can be frightening."

Everyone is under a lot of economic stress these days (and the 1920s-1930s Germans were even more so, with quadruple-digit inflation), and it's easier to let the alternately frightening ("There's terrorists behind every mailbox!") and reassuring ("You are good Christian freedom-loving responsible people who have the world's highest standard of living") waves of propaganda wash over them.

[Tactical Progressive]

39. That's a really good rundown

of the kind of conditioning that has swallowed up so many people into the nonsense of right-wingerism.

I only have one quibble. Don't take this kind of contempt: "Mike Sometimes I think, ... I think you are just anti-American." sitting down, with defense and protestation. It is failure by its very nature.

What you say, calmly, is "Republicans are deeply un-American." Then proceed to whatever it is that fits the bill and your mood. You can talk generally about the lying, the greed, the bigotry, the closemindedness, dishonesty, selfishnes, ... or you can segue into specifics like the letting America get attacked on 9/11 then pretending you cared about national security, the intentionally driving the country into bankruptcy, the wall-to-wall lies to America to start a war they wanted from the beginning, trying to destroy Social Security and any kind of social evolution they can get their hands on, etc etc. Explain that Conservatism is anti-American from the core on out.

"I am not un-American" is not a response. It is a capitulation.

[Shell Beau]

16. Not always, I know some people who will listen with open ears as

long as I listen to them in return. I've changed a few minds on certain issues. It is all about the way you go about talking to people. Now, of course there are some out there who O.D.'d on the Kool Aid.

[Zorra]

18. I have actually wondered if they have had chips planted in their brains

like in the remake of the movie "The Manchurian Candidate".

Or maybe the RW discovered how to alter the limited thought processes of the conservative by using video games and/or other visual media through teleportation techniques recently discovered by quantum physicists.

Because it is difficult to imagine that anyone with an IQ over 10 could naturally be as blind and stupid as a Bush supporter.

[eternalburn]

20. It is possible to talk some sense....

....but it's a neverending job.

My aunt is a Bushie. I try my best to just ignore her. So does the rest of the family. She made a mistake a few months ago though by spouting off at a family function about the "myth of golbal warming". My physicist father could not let it go and proceeded to beat her down with science, facts, and logic.

After a while she began to see the light but it wasn't enough to turn her completely away from the Bush monopoly. It's a twenty four seven job.

Dealing with a Bushie is much like telling a wife of 20 years that her husband is cheating on her. She won't want to believe it until it hits her smack in the face. Denial is a serious symptom of the Bushie disease.

[deutsey]

26. That's pretty much my experience with Bush supporters, too n/t

[liberalmike27]

27. Never fail

To mention the media when talking to any of them. The seeds of doubt in their sources must be planted, as the root of the problem lies in the television media, and in the huge radio presence of the right-wing. You must try to convince them that sources of media are biased to the right, and pretend to be liberal. I firmly believe it is true, but their mouth's will drop open in disbelief, as it goes against all they've been taught about the media. Ask them who told them the media was liberal. If they can't say, then tell them it was the media that convinced you of that. Then tell them if the media is so liberal, would they keep having people on the shows accusing them of being liberal, as it kind of foils the supposed deception.

Our core strategy must be to convince them that their sources are nothing but huge corporate entities, that have a near monopoly, and can project the same message to all.

[kentuck]

28. Who coined the negative phrase "liberal media" ?

Was it the "liberal media"? I don't think so. Good point.

[liberalmike27]

34. Who else?

Of course it was the liberal media that coined the phrase. You ask a bunch of republicans on, they have all agreed as part of their strategy to call the media liberal as much as possible. The media is complicit, since they don't edit these comments out, not that I'd suggest they do.

Then you have a brain-dead democratic party that didn't understand the effect of hearing the phrase "liberal media" thousands of times on all media outlets. They should have been hitting the media back from every angle to get more fair truthful media, perhaps they could insinuate the idea that the truth, fair and accurate coverage of an event is neither liberal nor conservative. But they did nothing. I hear a few now who have finally called the media conservative, but they've waited so long that they are often laughed at by the ever-present conservative counterpart (hey, where is the liberal counterpart to all of the right-wing hacks on the supposed liberal media?). Democrats need to wake up, and see the media has Bush sycophantish, and say it loud, often, and at every opportunity. In other words fight back.

[kentuck]

35. And if indeed there were a "liberal media"..

They would be strong enough to offer a response to such nonsense. However, like a mantra, we hear over and over and over "liberal media" and cannot see that the "liberal media" would have nothing to gain by portraying themselves so negatively..

[Mr.Green93]

25. Why care?

We do not need them.

[liberalmike27]

31. Not true!

One of the reasons for success of the right in their 40 year campaign to take back the American mind is they've attacked on all fronts.

They install conservative blacks, admittedly with policies that are very harmful to many blacks and poor white people, and the middle class. But the blacks see all of these appointees, some being resisted by democrats rightly of course. This causes a few of them to flake off to the Republican Party.

They attack on the Catholic front. I think nearly 40% of people believe in Catholicism in this country. It is a highly democratic crowd for the most part, but the recent orchestration against Catholics has shaved off a goodly percentage of these people to the Republican Party.

Hispanics have also been appealed to.

The brainwashing is being used on the uneducated, the less-thinking crowd too. This group is huge, and they need to convince many, many in the lower and middle class to vote for them, or they'd never win.

They are attacking on the education front. This happens in two ways, by cutting funding you have increasing numbers of ignorant voters. The other way is that are trying to get mysticism to be taught as science in many states, or creationism if you like. They are lobbying colleges to specifically hire conservative teachers. I doubt these people are deliberately excluded anyway, I just think many of them prefer the business community, since they make more money. I also believe that the most intelligent people tend to be more liberal. The smarter you get, the more you think, the more books you read of opinions that vary, the more liberal you tend to become, and the more conservatism looks to be an anathema to our country.

I'm sure I mentioned a front, but never make the mistake of thinking you shouldn't talk to someone, anyone, because you "don't need them." The closeness (I guess) of the last election should let you know that. Your voice may well be the only one they hear that states why Bush is wrong, and the liberal contingent is right.

[sniffa]

30. no, they're dead to me

fuck them.

[G_j]

33. many have turned from him

but at this point, if they haven't smelled the coffee by now....

:shrug:

[Quixote1818]

36. It's like talking to the people in David Koresh's compound in Waco

They have all committed intellectual suicide and are brainwashed into the Neocon cult.

[Snap]

37. You must be firm!

I was at a friends house, he was looking after his grandchildren and they were jumping off of the chandeliers. He looked over at me and said "You must be firm with them."

[leftofthedial]

38. There are exceptions to any rule

but generally no.

not without deprogramming them away from the cult. It is a cult.