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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 10:27 AM
Original message
It's NOT just us.. My friend teaches in a Catholic School
Edited on Thu Apr-21-05 10:28 AM by SoCalDem
and she told me last night, that her STUDENTS, 8th graders, were very upset about the "Nazi pope". She marched her class over to the cathedral, so that Father Whats-his-name could "explain" to them just how this was okay. She flat out told the Father that it was "beyond her pay grade" to try and explain to these children.

The week prior to the pope's induction, she had taken those kids to the Simon Wiesenthal Center in LA, and Holocaust survivors were their GUIDES through the museum.

At least this one class of 8th graders are not "lovin' it"..


She had been worrying about how to make this a "teaching moment", but they beat her to it.. The whole class came to her and asked how God could let a Nazi be Pope..

That's a question for Father Whats-his-name, she said..
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. because he was never really a Nazi
he has spent the last 60 years atoning for his being a Nazi; he was forced to be a Nazi; he was a Nazi but didn't go to meetings

did I leave out any of the explanations that the apologists have put forth

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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. On the one hand we shouldn't judge the new Pope by what he did 60 years
ago.

On the other hand, he should have been a mensch and admitted what he did was wrong. I also have issues with his interference in our election on behalf of Bush.

The Church hierarchy has a sordid history regarding the Holocaust, but there were also acts of heroism by individual priests.


I feel bad for your friend trying to explain that one away...
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. There are people still in jail
over things that happened sixty years ago.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Oh, I know. And there are kids in the US that are serving hard time
as teenagers. I'm not making excuses for the Pope.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. Tell those kids to cut the crap, they're losing the Catholic vote for us
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comsymp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. SNARF
I can always count on you... um... "honey"?

xoxo-
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. hmmmmm
do I kiss you or hit the alert...choices choices
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Sounds Like Ratzinger May be Swinging the American Catholic Vote
from Republican to Democratic. At least we'll see if that's how it plays out.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. What I think the Pope should do
is have a conference where anybody in the press can come and just ask him a bunch of question's. Let him come clean. I do believe he was chosen to be Pope for some reason (:shrug:) but if so many people are upset about his past let him come clean. Not his brother or anybody else, but him. He needs to show people whether or not he still is apart of something like that and put people's minds at rest.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Incredible.
What a wonderful teacher.
And it's obvious how well she does her job- kids that have learned to think for themselves and question everything are off to a damn good start.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. She uses Howard Zinn as a source for her history class
She IS a thoughtful teacher:)
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Can we clone her?
She is the kind of teacher we need to replace the ones who want to teach creationalis-oops, I did it again-I mean ID in school.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. He's not her ONLY source, but she at least piques their interest
by pointing out that there ARE different views of events that may not be what "common knowledge" is.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. I'd say
At least she's letting them ask her question's and stuff and trying to get them to understand and they're having discussions.
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Kathryn7 Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
11. If he's a Nazi for being drafted, she becomes one for working for his org.
Or, maybe neither are Nazis. Which is what I believe is the case here.
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PKG Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. A Nazi for being drafted? No. A Nazi for
serving with the Nazis for four years, only deserting after Hitler shot himself and the Russians had taken Berlin? Perhaps.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. That's where the confusion is I think
I think that's part of the confusion on if he is or isn't a Nazi. If he wasn't one why did he wait so long to leave the group? There were a couple of anti-Hitler groups. :shrug: So I don't know. I think he should be able to prove himself.
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Kathryn7 Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. She could calm them & read the statement by the Simon Wiesenthal Center
STATEMENT BY SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER ON ELECTION OF CARDINAL RATZINGER TO

The Simon Wiesenthal Center congratulates Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger on becoming Pope Benedict XVI.

"I hope that he will continue to build on the legacy of Pope John Paul II’s special relationship with the Jewish people," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. "The new Pope, like his predecessor, was deeply influenced by the events of WWII," he said. "As a child, Pope Benedict XVI grew up in an anti-Nazi family. Nonetheless he was forced to join the Hitler Youth movement during the Second World War."

Rabbi Hier continued, "Pope John Paul II dramatically changed the Catholic Church forever in reaching out to other religions, particularly Judaism. I am confident that the Vatican under the leadership of Pope Benedict XVI will continue to build on those remarkable achievements and organizations like the Simon Wiesenthal Center look forward to being partners in that process."

The Wiesenthal Center had two private audiences with the late John Paul II in 1983 and 2003.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center is one of the largest international Jewish human rights organizations with over 400,000 member families in the United States. It is an NGO at international agencies including the United Nations, UNESCO, the OSCE, and the Council of Europe.

For more information, please contact the Center's Public Relations Department, 310-553-9036, or visit www.wiesenthal.com.



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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Thats a PR press release.
NOT an explination. He holds very extremist views within the Catholic tradition. He might be reaching out to other Judeo-Christion faiths, but he is openly against everyone else, including civil-rights and will be politicly involved.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
13. Do people really believe that a diety picks these people?
I can't comprehend, how, in this day and age, some people still buy into this sky-god-picking-its-religious-representatives-on-earth thinking. Sorry. Flame away.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Maybe not , but it IS a catholic School, and selection of a Pope
Edited on Thu Apr-21-05 11:58 AM by SoCalDem
is a big deal to them.. These are Catholic kids, and smart ones.. She teaches at a college prep school.. Her students are only 8th grade, and they are being taught calculus already, so they are very "into" thinking, even if they must still learn the doctrine:)
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. I won't flame you because I know how you feel
Men make mistakes. So that's why I don't like being apart of something like that. How do you know you really got the right person? You could've had the wrong indication or feeling or whatever. I do trust my feelings and intuition but everybody makes mistakes. :shrug: And besides in the Bible Christ talks about how we're all equal through him. You go through the father through him and not a pope. Just from my Biblical studies.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Read some Howard Zinn - "Passionate Declarations" is a great
book to start with.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
15. Amazing. A lie will be halfway around the world before the truth
Edited on Thu Apr-21-05 12:01 PM by Tinoire
gets its boots on.

Your friend, as a teacher, should have had NO problems explaining to 8th graders that the Hitler Youth were not Nazis anymore than Wermacht soldiers were. Your friend as a teacher, should have seized this opportunity to ask those 8th graders what they would do today if George Bush came and forced them to be part of the Bush Youth at the risk of shipping their family, known for speaking out against Bush and foiling the activities of his Brown Shirts, off to an internment camp or lining them up against a wall and shooting them.

Do your friends students know that THEY are going down in history as the New Nazis as they worry about the specks in other peoples' eyes? What excuses will they, their parents and their teachers come up with?

Your friend, as a teacher, should have also had enough of a sense of responsibility to do a little research on what places like the Simon Wiesenthal Center had to say about Pope Benedict.

And then we wonder why people in this country are mocked worldwide as not being able to think and pre-grad school educational system laughed at. We wonder why the rest of the world can think on its own and be out in the streets protesting the evils of the wars we complicitly support while we sit at home UNABLE TO REASON for ourselves and swallowing any ole meme tossed out there. It's really a crying shame.

ADL Welcomes Election of Cardinal Ratzinger as New Pope

New York, NY, April 19, 2005 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today welcomed the election of German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as the new Pope, Benedict XVI. Under his leadership in Germany and Rome, the Catholic Church made important strides in improving Catholic-Jewish relations and atoning for the sin of anti-Semitism. Cardinal Ratzinger has been a leader in this effort and has made important statements in the spirit of sensitivity and reconciliation with the Jewish people.
Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:

We welcome the new Papacy of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. From the Jewish perspective, the fact that he comes from Europe is important, because he brings with him an understanding and memory of the painful history of Europe and of the 20th Century experience of European Jewry.

Having lived through World War II, Cardinal Ratzinger has great sensitivity to Jewish history and the Holocaust. He has shown this sensitivity countless times, in meetings with Jewish leadership and in important statements condemning anti-Semitism and expressing profound sorrow for the Holocaust. We remember with great appreciation his Christmas reflections on December 29, 2000, when he memorably expressed remorse for the anti-Jewish attitudes that persisted through history, leading to "deplorable acts of violence" and the Holocaust. Cardinal Ratzinger said: "Even if the most recent, loathsome experience of the Shoah (Holocaust) was perpetrated in the name of an anti-Christian ideology, which tried to strike the Christian faith at its Abrahamic roots in the people of Israel, it cannot be denied that a certain insufficient resistance to this atrocity on the part of Christians can be explained by an inherited anti-Judaism present in the hearts of not a few Christians."

Though as a teenager he was a member of the Hitler Youth, all his life Cardinal Ratzinger has atoned for the fact. In our years of working on improving Catholic-Jewish ties, ADL has had opportunities to work with Cardinal Ratzinger. We look forward to continuing that relationship.

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/44698_96.htm

On edit more with thanks to Princess Turandot:

New York – The American Jewish Committee today congratulated the Catholic Church and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger on his election as the 265th pope, Benedict XVI.

"Cardinal Ratzinger already has shown a profound commitment to advancing Catholic-Jewish relations, and we look forward to continuing our close working relationship with the church," said Rabbi David Rosen, AJC's international director of interreligious affairs.

"We hope the church will continue to show the same sensitivity to Jewish concerns and needs as did the late John Paul II."

AJC is the leading American Jewish interlocutor with the Catholic Church in the U.S. and at the Vatican.

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/nfo/article.cfm?id=3906

The Simon Wiesenthal Center congratulates Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger on becoming Pope Benedict XVI.

"I hope that he will continue to build on the legacy of Pope John Paul II’s special relationship with the Jewish people," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. "The new Pope, like his predecessor, was deeply influenced by the events of WWII," he said. "As a child, Pope Benedict XVI grew up in an anti-Nazi family. Nonetheless he was forced to join the Hitler Youth movement during the Second World War."

Rabbi Hier continued, "Pope John Paul II dramatically changed the Catholic Church forever in reaching out to other religions, particularly Judaism. I am confident that the Vatican under the leadership of Pope Benedict XVI will continue to build on those remarkable achievements and organizations like the Simon Wiesenthal Center look forward to being partners in that process."

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/nfo/article.cfm?id=3906

And from Ha’aretz

New pope seen continuing relationship with Israel, Jews

By Peter Hirschberg, Haaretz Correspondent

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the new pope to be known as Benedict XVI, will continue the positive, ground-breaking relations toward Israel and the Jews that characterized the papacy of Pope John Paul II, say senior Jewish figures who are integrally involved in relations with the Vatican, and know Ratzinger personally.

"He has a profound commitment to good relations between the Catholic Church and the Jewish people, and an unquestionable commitment to Israel's well being," says Rabbi David Rosen, who was a key figure in the establishment of diplomatic relations between Israel and the Vatican in 1993. "From a narrow Jewish and Israeli perspective, it is good news for the Jews."

Israel Singer, chairman of the World Jewish Congress, says Ratzinger "was the man who provided the theological underpinnings for Pope John Paul II's decision to open relations with Israel. He solved the real problem that existed - the 2,000-year-old theological question. He was the one who had the keys to open that lock. In the last 20 years he has changed the 2,000-year history of relations between Jews and Christianity. I believe he will continue the policies of John Paul II with regard to relations with the Jews and Israel."

Shortly after the establishment of diplomatic ties, Ratzinger visited Israel to deliver the keynote address at a Jewish-Christian conference. "He wanted to express his personal support for Vatican-Israel relations, and for the advance of Jewish-Catholic relations," recalls Rosen, who chaired the event. Ratzinger, who made several quiet visits to Israel before the establishment of diplomatic ties, wrote the introduction to what Rosen calls the "most important" document on Christian-Jewish relations to come out of the Pontifical Biblical Studies Commission, the Vatican body that focuses on biblical studies. The document, which was issued under Ratzinger's authority, deals with the central place of the Jewish people and of religious Jewish texts in Christian teaching.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/567125.html
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LTRS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Stop making excuses for this guy
Whether or not he was a dedicated Nazi then, he sure as hell has a lot in common with them ideologically NOW. He preaches that gays and lesbians represent an ideology of evil. He sent a letter to American cardinals declaring that Kerry should be denied communion while Bush, the man responsible for the deaths of so many LIVING, BREATHING PEOPLE is heaven sent because he is anti-choice?

Raztzinger embodies vicious right wing doctrine that is reminiscent of the Nazis. Then or now, he is still of that ilk.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. It's about the "taint"..
What HE personally did or did not do, 60 years ago, is not so much the issue, as the fact that it's all being dredged back up because of their choice of him as Pope.

Fairly recently the church apologized for some of the things they did and did not do, during the Holocaust, so it begs credulity that they would actually pick such a polarizing figure as Pope...KNOWING that the whole issue would come back with him..

The sad truth is this.. If you were European and 16 or older during the war, and were NOT a persecuted person, there is a "suspicion" concerning your actions during the war. It's inescapable. There were only two sides during that conflagration, and ANY ties to Hitler are too many for most thinking people.

Maybe when the people who were not children back then, are all gone, things might be different, but for now, there are still people being hunted for, even if they might be dead already. Until the actuarial tables agree that they are no longer with us, they will be hunted.

WWII is not so easily "piffled away" with soundbytes of today's media..

Wikl Catholoics revolt and take to the streets?? No.. But will lots of them be glad when the "transitional Pope" has been replaced by someone else? Yes!
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. What's amazing is the lengths you will go to excuse his past
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Lol. What you call "excuses" are nothing more than TRUTHS
Edited on Thu Apr-21-05 12:34 PM by Tinoire
Truths and questions that war-complicit Democrats don't like to deal with because it puts in crimp in the comforting charade that if you're not a Republican, you're a good person when the TRUTH is that we are EVEN WORSE and more disgusting than the Germans of Ratzinger's times who at least had the fear of being shot to worry about.

EVERY AMERICAN, to include those 8th graders, already made a choice about whether they would fight this neo-con evil or not, and the answer has been CHILLING COMPLICITY. But let's judge Ratzinger- a man people know almost nothing about other than a few memes being marketted in the US and the UD.

But you know what, it just doesn't matter. This country is so fucking beyond hope lost, over-run by what Churchill brilliantly called little Eichmanns that discussing anything with the complicit majority is a total waste of time.

Do some fucking research and ask yourself why it's the people of the 2 most war-mongering countries on earth, STUPID enough to believe that there were WMDs in Iraq and that voting for the war is not voting for the war (Talk about going to lengths to excuse!) who are so upset about this? The entire rest of the world must be stupid. The same people who booed Bush in St Peters' square and cheered Ratzinger must be stupid.

Baaaah. Fuck it.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
20. New rule: If you were involved in a Nazi youth group....
Good points in this one on new Pope...

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=18929

Pope Benedict XVI's questionable qualifications
Bill Berkowitz - WorkingForChange

04.20.05 - As comedian Bill Maher might say, NEW RULES: "If you were involved in a Nazi youth group, you can't be pope."

snip

Consider what John Aravosis, a Washington DC-based writer and political consultant, and the author of Americablog.com, wrote on his blog about Ratzinger and the Nazis in the hours immediately following his election.

"When is it fair to call a Nazi a Nazi?" Aravosis asked:

He was a member of the Hitler youth, and he belonged to a Luftwaffe AA battery. ... As some on the left note, just because he was a German soldier doesn't make him a Nazi (though I must admit the nuance is lost a bit on me... )

The thing is, I feel like some are exonerating Ratzinger's past specifically because of his past. It's almost as if the fact that he was in the Hitler Youth and the Nazi army somehow means "of course he wasn't a Nazi." That logic is a bit weird. It's as weird as folks today who say "how dare you compare what is happening in America to what happened in Nazi Germany." Many people like to think, for whatever reason, that the sins of the Nazis could never happen again, so per se it's bad form to even worry that they might or are. That's a rather dangerous and flippant view of history. And I think it's what's motivating some of the "how dare you call Ratzinger a Nazi" rhetoric.

continued

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Nazis belonged to the Nazi party.
Many of the armed services--especially those conscripted--were not party members.

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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. I love Children
they get it :-)
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