Ratzinger: Jews will “say yes to Christ.”

[IndianaGreen]

It is bad enough when the head of the Southern Baptist Convention announces that G_d does not listen to the prayers of Jews, it is something else when Cardinal Ratzinger says that Judaism will cease to exist because Jews will be converted to Christianity. How is this different from those that wanted Judaism destroyed during World War II?

The following article is from the National Catholic Reporter, October 6, 2000:

Ratzinger speaks out in new book, debate
By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.
NCR Staff
Rome

The comment comes in a new book, God and the World, to be published Oct. 10 in Germany. Extracts from the book, a question-and-answer session between Ratzinger and a journalist covering a wide range of topics, were published Sept. 10 by the German weekly Focus.

In another context, Ratzinger said in a Sept. 21 public debate with an atheist that Christianity has always claimed to be the logical fulfillment of human reason, and hence Christianity is the “right” answer for every human being, but the faith must not be imposed by force.

<snip>

“That the Jews are connected with God in a special way and that God does not allow that bond to fail is entirely obvious,” Ratzinger said in the new book. “We wait for the instant in which Israel will say yes to Christ, but we know that it has a special mission in history now … which is significant for the world.”

Asked if Jews must, or should, acknowledge Jesus as the messiah, Ratzinger replied, “We believe that.”

http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/100600/100600k.htm

[Bluebear]

1. A German lecturing about Jews. Great.

[bobthedrummer]

3. A former Hitler Youth and Wehrmacht veteran too.

:puke::argh:

[Richard Steele]

4. Yeah, THAT always ends well! (sarcasm)

[IndianaGreen]

5. The stark contrast between the Polish Pope and the German Pope

is overwhelming and increasingly disturbing.

[Erika]

8. Yep.

Very disturbing. Bush must have influenced the decision.

[JackRiddler]

16. Ahem, what contrast?

Ratzinger was Wojtyla's choice of a right hand man.

Their doctrines are identical. Ratzinger wrote Wojtyla's doctrines.

Wojtyla chose the Cardinals who thereupon elected Ratzinger.

Where's the contrast?

[IndianaGreen]

23. Here is what Rabbi Michael Lerner said about the panzer Pope

Rabbi Michael Lerner of Beyt Tikkun Synagogue in San Francisco, editor of Tikkun

Ratzinger has been the leader of an internal inquisition in the church against any voices that sought to hold on to the message that came out of Vatican II. Instead, he has pushed the church away from social justice and peace concerns. This guy has a history -- from his short time in the Nazi youth organization and service in the army to his authoritarian and anti-gay perspective -- of fighting against the liberalization of the church that occurred under Vatican II. He has taken fundamentally repressive stands on homosexuality and on women's right to make their own reproductive choices. He has denounced anybody in the church who was willing to give equal validity to other faith traditions, including Jews.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2005/04/20/pope_reax/

Compare Ratzinger to what the late Polish Pope did to accept his Church's responsibility for centuries of anti-Semitism.

[KharmaTrain]

32. My Grandmother Who Was Born In Poland Would Disagree

As a kid, she related to me harrowing stories of her youth in a small town near Warsaw nearly 100 years ago now, and at that time under Russian control. While the Cossacks would occasional rough up her village...steal things and general "pillage", the Poles constantly preyed on her and her family. She lived with constant anti-semetism that was 24/7 and even followed to this country.

Several years ago I ran across letters from relatives in Poland and Germany during the early and mid 20's (the letters end around 1935 in Germany and 1939 from Poland) where she and other members of my family were trying hard to find ways to get other family members here that had remained behind but were constantly hampered by red tape and repressive immigration laws Repugnicans had put in place following WWI.

Til her dying day, my Grandmother despised Poles and called them rapists and murderers, since she saw it first hand. Of the 20,000 Jews that lived in her village, only 20 remained after the war, and they were driven to emmigrate. I'm certain, she would argue Poles are as anti-semetic, if not more than German...considering until Hitler came to power, Jews had a far better life in German than they did in Poland.

FWIW...I think the rap that Ratzinberger is a Nazi is hollow considering his age and the circumstances he faced...none of us would be able to say for certain how we'd react in a similar time. If people have gripes with him over his theology or politics, call it that, don't try to find a strawman.

[IndianaGreen]

36. "Karol Wojtyla saved my life at the end of the World War"

No such anecdote in Ratzinger's bio! JPII was a mensch!

"KAROL WOJTYLA SAVED MY LIFE AT THE END OF THE WORLD WAR"

Testimony of Jewish Woman Who Was About To Die at 16

JERUSALEM, (ZENIT).- Today will be an unforgettable day for Edith Zirer, a Jewish woman who was born in Poland but who has lived in Haifa for decades. At last, in the Yad Vashem Memorial to the Holocaust, she was able to personally thank Karol Wojtyla, the man who saved her life 55 years ago, she said.

At that time, Edith Zirer said: "I remember perfectly well. I was there, I was a 13 year old girl, alone, sick, and weak. I had spent 3 years in a German concentration camp at the point of death.

And, like an angel, Karol Wojtyla saved my life; like a dream from heaven: he gave me something to drink and eat and then carried me on his back some 4 kilometers in the snow, before catching the train to safety."

Edith Zirer tells the story as if it had happened yesterday. It was a cold morning in early February, 1945. The young Jew, who was not yet aware that she was the only member of her family to survive the Nazi massacre, let a tall, strong 25-year-old, tonsured seminarian carry her and give her a ray of hope.

http://www.ewtn.com/holyland2000/News/ewtn_savedlife.htm

[da_chimperor]

2. Spiritual imperialism. Yay.

:eyes:

[Cats Against Frist]

11. I like calling it "religious supremacism"

on the part of the church and "cultural supremacism," on the part of the core 'muricans. "Racial supremacism" was the word for the Nazis -- I don't see why it can't just be adapted to their spawn.

[katsy]

6. finally...

a stand-up comic in rome.

:rofl:

[Charlie Brown]

7. Has the SBC President ever said that?

I know Pat Robertson said that, but he has never been the President of the Southern Baptist Convention.

[tyedyeto]

9. When he says 'Jews will "say yes to Christ." '...

is that an ultimatum?

Just asking....

[IndianaGreen]

No Jews, no Judaism, no Jewish state of Israel in Ratzinger's world view

Had such a statement been made by a lesser known figure, he would have been chased out of town for being an anti-Semite!

Is anyone aware if Ratzinger has renounced such medieval views?

[Ilsa]

13. In their beliefs, it's a part of the order of things to come...

They believe armageddon will involve a third of the Jews being thrown into the lake of fire ( :wtf: ), and something happening to another third and one third being converted to Christianity.

[tyedyeto]

14. Not being a Catholic, I didn't know that.....

thank you for the knowledge.

[Lone Pawn]

19. That's not Roman Catholic belief.

That's end-times evangelical Protestant belief.

[tyedyeto]

21. Well, I'm not that either.........

was just wondering how these religions (mainly Catholic since that's the discussion of the day) justify what they say.

[Ilsa]

24. You are right. It is an evangelical

protestant belief. But I can't fathom any other explanation for it. So maybe I screwed up with my post, now that I reconsider it. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

[IndianaGreen]

17. That sounds like the same neocon shit that Bush believes

We are being led by a bunch of biblical eschatologists that want nothing more than to destroy this planet in order to self-fulfill their prophetic interpretations.

[doublethink]

18. sounds like bush saying your either with us or against us ....

he's learned well from the dark side. ... geesh

[tyedyeto]

20. OMG...I never looked at it that way........

does have a certain soundbite of truth to it.

[goclark]

10. That does it for me!

Dangerous!

[Drewskie]

12. Prophetic books

There are a few cryptic passages in the prophetic books (Isaiah especially) that the christian exegists claim foreshadow christ. Jewish scholars have long denied this and say their messiah has yet to come. It's a matter of interpretation... The pope will convince them of nothing since the texts themselves are unclear... especially so since from hebrew, to greek, then to english many many words were altered or simply added. You can find anything in the bible if you try hard enough: thus the wacky snake worshipping cults you sometimes find in the uneducated south, mad men like David Koresh... thousands of others.

[bpilgrim]

15. one way or another

i'm sure :scared:

peace

[ltfranklin]

22. OK, are you ready for...The Inquisition?

The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse)
Confess, don't be boring.
Say yes, don't be dull.
A fact you're ignoring:
It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull (oy oy gevalt!)


Here's where you find it!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3083196&mesg_id=3083196

[understandinglife]

25. Just like Hitler said, sure thing dude will stop bombing, to Churchill

www.missionnotaccomplished.us (a day to reflect on how to bankrupt the Vatican)

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[teryang]

27. The guy is out to lunch

And about as diplomatic as Bolton. He'll fit right in with the "new order."

[REP]

28. Anyone Surprised? Bueller? Bueller?

The last one was bad enough; I expected no less from this one.

[Tinoire]

29. If you look at it as a Christian

believing that Jesus is the Messiah, then I'm afraid that what Ratzinger believes is what all Christians believe. Is it that far from what Jews believe? Don't Jews also believe that everyone on earth will bow down before & honor the Messiah?

We are down to the old squabble about who the Messiah is. Christians maintain Jews missed the Messiah the first time around and Jews maintain that Christians got on totally the wrong boat and are worshipping the wrong Messiah.

Logically, it makes sense for him, as a Christian who believes that Jesus was the Messiah, to believe that.

If we serve the same God, and there's only one Messiah, then one of us is wrong but as long as we admit (while secretly believing in our stubborn hearts that we're right) that there's room for the other guy to see the light in the next phase, what's the problem? Or maybe, we're all right with God revealing Himself to us in different ways and at different times. Or is my view too simplistic? :shrug:

I believe that what Ratzinger is leading everyone to is one big happy family down the road, worshipping the same Messiah. It's a vision that doesn't exclude anyone and I see that as a good thing.

There's a major difference in the Catholic belief about the Messiah and the Fundie belief. We, under no circumstances, believe in the 20th century invention of a rapture that's going to come sweep up the Christ worshippers and leave the rest to burn if they don't immeidately bow down and worship the blue-eyed Jesus from late night TV.

I think Ratzinger's next sentence is very important:

"Jews are connected with God in a special way and that God does not allow that bond to fail...the fact remains, however, that our Christian conviction is that Christ is also the messiah of Israel. Certainly it is in the hands of God how and when the unification of Jews and Christians into the people of God will take place."

To ask Ratzinger to believe any differently is to ask Christians to say that we are worsipping an anti-Christ, an anti-Messiah. To ask him to say any differently would also be, imo, to ask him to say that Jews are not part of the vision imo.

Go ahead my friend, let me have it! There are only 4 possibilities here:

1. I'm right, you're wrong
2. You're right, I'm wrong
3. We're both right
4. We're both wrong

Personally, I prefer the one that we're both right and that's been a deeply held belief since child-hood- that God, as omnipotent as He is, can reveal Himself to anyone, anyway He likes and anytime He likes. To confine Him to our own rigid understanding is to deny Him His omnipotence, His grace and His mystery, imho.

[w4rma]

30. Are you telling me I'm not a Christian, Tinoire? Because I don't

believe this pile of BS that Rat is spewing one bit. So you try and tell me, again, that I'm not a Christian, please. You tell me what *I* believe.

[IndianaGreen]

31. We are our own Messiahs

Only a minority of Jews believe in a literal Messiah, and most of those are the same idiots that proclaim that G_d gave us "Judea, Samaria," Gaza, and great chunks of Lebanon in perpetuity. I recoil at the thought of laying on the same bed as that crowd of religious zealots.

The Book of Revelation is a book of revenge. Everyone that does not accept the "truth" will be slaughtered. This is the same nonsense that moved the mobs to burn witches and heretics at the stake, and drove the Jews out of Spain. This is the bankrupt theology that gave justification to the Russian pogroms and to the Holocaust.

[The Magistrate]

33. An Excellent Summing Up, Ms. Tinoire!

"Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived."

[Trajan]

35. This Atheist would select answer 4 ...

We are both wrong ....

Look: Men are ignorant of most possible knowledge ...

SURELY they are just as ignorant of gods ....

[Darranar]

44. Indeed, Tinoire...

Is it that far from what Jews believe? Don't Jews also believe that everyone on earth will bow down before & honor the Messiah?

Yes, that's exactly what traditional Jews, at least, believe, though the worship will be of God, not the Messiah.

It's stated quite clearly in the Aleinu:

V'chal b'nei vasar yikr'u vishmecha - and all the world will call upon Your (God's) name.

I suppose that allows for Christianity and Islam though, and a loose interpretation - one more to my liking - could involve thinking of God as a moral force, and therefore think of it as basically saying that all humanity will unite in goodness.

Anyone who thinks human decency is the best course of action is right; the rest is minor quibbling.

[RummyTheDummy]

34. Ouch. That one is going to leave a mark (NT)

[jbnow]

37. Reminds me of this minister

who felt some need to convince me only Christians can be saved. He gave me some bible quote that said something about when he returns and people bowing to the Christ. How can they do that if they don't know him?

Well duh. Jesus and the Christ are not one thing. Jesus was a dude who it seems became the Christ, even was born to be. Do believers know what Jesus looks like?
If "Christ" returns it will be the energy of like drawing like, it will be the Christ energy that draws people. Many "Christians" would totally miss it and many Jews and atheists and Muslims and whatever labels would resonate with this energy... Hearts who love, eyes that see what is before them. Has nothing to do with the label they give it.

So in that since I agree...if we see Christ as that vibrant energy of truth and love...we say yes to that. Our denomination or even belief in "God" has nothing to do with it.

Don't think that is what this guy meant.

What a very strange choice they made, but then after all the strange choices Bush makes it just seems to fit.

[Solly Mack]

38. End of timer back home claims that is a sign of

Apocalypse and must happen before Christ returns (total conversion from Judaism to Christianity)

especially in Israel...

Guy's a baptist fundie to the nth degree.

amazing...simply amazing..

[IndianaGreen]

39. And what about those Jews that refuse to see Ratzinger's "truth"?

Are they going to be murdered like the Jews of Spain in 1469?

[Solly Mack]

42. He said (cause I asked the same thing more or less)

"those who didn't accept Jesus would die..."

The guy's views are not unique where I'm from (Georgia)...he's not the only one to have expressed that thinking in one form or another

It seems to be widespread thinking among some religious groups.

He was handing out little "come to my church" cards and started talking to our group. We were waiting for our ride. He said so many disturbing things that we didn't know whether to laugh at him or run...

[MisterP]

40. what is he, the Psychedelic Furs?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[LatePeriduct]

43. Oh its not even close to over yet.

The skeletons are coming out of the government's closet, in broad daylight.