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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 09:56 PM
Original message
The Vatican Has No Business In American Politics
Not meant as a flame at all. I congratulate all Catholics on their new pope.

My problem with the church is that they constantly agitate HERE in our country on domestic issues, trying to change US LAW, and quite effectively making many of our lives far, far worse.

Some of the doctrine is hateful and bigoted, and while the intent may be virtuous and "godly", the reality is that the Vatican propogates viciousness and hate, when they enter the civil realm, where they really do not belong.

Don't try to change US law to fit arch conservative Roman theology. Preach what you want in your churches. Try to convert people to your mission. But don't come to OUR COUNTRY and try to mess with OUR LAWS.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. they got years of practice
we're still newbies

peace
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. You know JP2 received CIA briefings under Raygun! n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Pio Laghi
Laghi was also papal envoy to Washington after Ronald Reagan became president. He acted as the pope’s discreet troubleshooter, based upon his service in Argentina, Nicaragua, and Palestine. In Washington, Laghi’s work was easier because he had the collaboration of ardent right-wing Catholics who were in strategic and sensitive positions within the Reagan administration. For example, CIA Director William Casey was a member of the elite and highly secret Knights of Malta, which pledges allegiance to the pope. Before Reagan nominated him to the CIA post, Casey was part of a small group that chose key Reagan officials, including cabinet heads, according to Penny Lernoux in her book, The People of God: The Struggle for World Catholicism. Others in the group included two Knights who were influential right-wing Catholics: James L. Buckley, brother of William Buckley, and Frank Shakespeare, chair of the Heritage Foundation.

Among the key Reagan administration players who met with Laghi were such right-wing Catholics as Casey and his chosen associates: Senior Foreign Policy and National Security Adviser Richard Allen; National Security Advisor William Clark; Secretary of State Alexander Haig; General Vernon Walters; and U.S. Ambassador to the Holy See William Wilson. In Anna Maria Askari’s book, The Vatican and the Reagan Administration, there is reference to taped interviews with Ambassador Wilson in which he points to Salvador, Asia, all the “trouble spots” in the world and says the Pope has a hand in all of them. Where does Wilson detect differences between the Pope and the United States? “No conflict at all;’ says Wilson. Any misunderstandings? “None at all. We talk a lot to them. They listen very carefully.”

Pio Laghi, one of the Roman Catholic Church’s most prominent cardinals, has been accused by a leading human rights group in Argentina of complicity in the torture, murder, and kidnapping of thousands of suspected political dissidents.

The following are among the Vatican-inspired changes in U.S. foreign policy largely unknown to the American public:

The CIA, having many Catholics in key positions, established a working relationship with the Vatican after World War II and cooperated with the Curia (Vatican bureaucrats) in helping Nazi criminals find refuge, usually in Latin America.

The CIA supplied the Curia with background data on “diplomats accredited to the Vatican;’ according to Penny Lernoux in The People of God.

The CIA, in response to Vatican political strategy, “pumped $65 million into Italian centrist and right-wing movements between 1946 and 1972, according to hearings by the House of Representatives,” Lernoux also wrote.”Meanwhile, Catholic Action’s papal troops prepared for battle with U.S. jeeps, guns, and other supplies.”

The Catholic bishops, led by Archbishop Joseph Bernadin, pressured then-presidential candidate Jimmy Carter in August 1976 to put a Roman Catholic in the cabinet post supervising the Agency of International Development (MD). In 1979, President Carter appointed Joseph Califano, a Roman Catholic, who ended the thirteen-year tenure of Dr. R.T. Ravenholt as director of the State Department’s global population program.

In 1980, Senator Frank Church, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, proposed an amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act, stating, “Catholics . . . are requesting that any aid program that we may embark upon in any foreign land include information and services which relate to and support natural family planning methods.”

On January 10, 1984, the Reagan administration established full diplomatic relations with the Vatican, ending more than a century of U.S. opposition to such relations. Although challenged by a wide spectrum of interests, the Supreme Court refused to hear the case.

During the U.S.-financed “contra” war, MD assisted the Archdiocesan Commission for Social Promotion (COPROS) and the diocese in Nicaragua in their opposition to the Sandinistas.
www.population-security.o...-97-07.htm
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. No, wait, before we all agree on that
let's have a million posts on how God doesn't exist. Because what we really need is sectarian disputes.

Just kidding.

You are absolutely right, and as Americans and liberal democrats, we believe NO church should be involved in politics, whether they are "nice" or "naughty".
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I do not believe that
Churches are made up of American citizens. As a voluntary association, they have every right to get as involved in politics as they wish. What that means for their tax status is another question.
If the Methodist church was true to its founders and principles, it should have excommunicated JR Bush a long time ago.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. psst...
god's rottweiler is NOT america... not to mention mixing religion and politics never worked before :nuke:

psst... pass the word ;->

peace
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. never?
"that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion - that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain - that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom - and that government of the people, by the people, and for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

Was it unconstitutional for Abe Lincoln to include those two words?

Speaking of spreading the word - Cardinal Ratzinger is not from Rottweil. Unless he endorses that nickname, I do not care for its use. FWIW, the Imperial City of Rottweil is very dear to me. I guess it is too bad Ratzinger was not more of a German Shepard, but those are pretty fierce dogs too.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. NEVER
"GOVERNMENT of the people, by the people, and for the people"

church nor god nor religion is mentioned.
we have strong tradition of the SEPARATION of CHURCH and STATE because our fore father knew that fact.

peace
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Lincoln did not say "this nation, under God ..."
the Declaration did not say "endowed by their creator"?
We also have a strong tradition of politicians bringing God into the public debate. Yes we do have a constitutional prohibition against the creation of a state religion, but the Constitution can be amended if the people desire to do so. At least in theory though, amending takes a pretty solid consensus.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. our CONSTITUTION doesn't mention god ONCE
Edited on Wed Apr-20-05 01:15 AM by bpilgrim
sure our politicians are free to speak of god but and always have but a speech is one thing the law is something altogether DIFFERENT.

peace
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. so the cardinal sending letters out to u.s. telling its people to attack
kerry, is not interfering in our politics. what is that
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. But Pope John Paul 2 was against the Iraq War and I liked that.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. now put your burkas back on
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. okay, it's on
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. too, late...
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. i agree, what i am not understanding
is why the catholics are mad at me because i ask this not to happen. i say have your religion, it is yours. but dont make me participate in it. yet still i am being forced to. i dont like it. then i am a bad guy, because i say i dont like it. i am not being nice enough to the caholics. i am married to a catholic. all my friends are catholic. i embrace and allow their religion, for their own. not mine, i dont want it
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. lotta folks freak'n out lately
specially us 'anonymous' posters ;->

peace
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hey - Why Doesn't the US Invade the Vatican and Impose Democracy?
No? The US should stay out of RCC business? Perhaps the RCC should return the favor and stay out of secular governments. Impose whatever 12th century rules they like on Catholics, but leave the rest of us alone.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. Last time I looked, American Catholics were AMERICANS.
What a ridiculous opening post!

:eyes:
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. and they can keep their RELIGION out of my GOVERNMENT, too.
thank you very much :toast:

peace
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Not talking about American catholics
Talking about the VATICAN throwing money around trying to influence legislation in the United States.
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