Are You Drinking the Water? What's Fluoride?

[chlamor]

Drink a glass of water, soda, juice or beer and you will probably be consuming a potent drug formerly prescribed to depress the thyroid gland. No laughing matter considering the consequences an underactive thyroid gland can have on one's health. You will have consumed a notorious air pollutant captures in the wet-scrubbing systems used by industries to clean their emissions. The drug? Hydrogen fluoride, often added to the water supply as a tooth-decay preventive.

Few people know that the hazardous waste from the chemical fertilizer industry is the source of the fluoride chemicals used to fluoridate water. As one of the phosphate industry's trade journals aptly puts it:

The fluorine compounds liberated during the acidulation of phosphate rock are now regarded as a menace and the industry is now obliged to suppress emissions-containing vapors to within very low limits in most parts of the world. As with any pollution control operation, it is highly desirable for the operator of the fluorine scrubber to find a use or market for the recovered fluorine to help defray at least partially the cost of the operation.

Although marketing the recovered fluorine may be a nice deal for Cargill Fertilizer and the chemical fertilizer industry, the public water supply is not an appropriate vehicle for hazardous waste management.

http://www.pure-food.com/fluoride_in_water.htm

[donco6]

1. Not this crap again. eom

[Renew Deal]

6. The fact is that fluoride is used to control your mind.

Prove it's not true.

See, you can't.

Ha



:sarcasm:

[donco6]

12. That's very much like the arguments these guys use.

We just went through it in Ft Collins.

[WLKjr]

92. OMG, I have people (customers at wal-mart) tell me this crap all the time

what BS.


now all we are missing is the contrails in the sky

:tinfoilhat:

[chlamor]

93. Mass Mind Molding

Interesting for me to read reactions that have been scripted by the PR machine. Take the blinders off. Cargill makes $600,000 off this wacky "theory" each year. Organized Greed.



In his 1928 book, Propaganda, Bernays expounded on "the mechanism" that controls the public mind. "Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society," Bernays wrote, "constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.... ur minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of...."

Almost overnight, under Bernays' mass mind-molding, the popular image of fluoride - which at the time was being widely sold as rat and bug poison - became that of a beneficial provider of gleaming smiles, absolutely safe, and good for children,

The prospect of the government mass-medicating the water supplies with a well-known rat poison to prevent a non-lethal disease flipped the switches of skeptics across the country. But, under Bernays' spell, fluoride's opponents were permanently engraved on the public mind as crackpots and right-wing loonies.

In 1950 the PHS officially endorsed fluoridation. Since then, two-thirds of the nation's reservoirs have been fluoridated and about 143,000 tons of fluoride are pumped in yearly to keep them that way.

Today, companies forced to reduce their fluoride emission can even recoup some of the expense by selling the waste to cities for water fluoridation.

http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/000062.htm

[chlamor]

98. It's PR that is used to control your mind-That's why

most folks buy into the fluoride myth.

Here:
In his 1928 book, Propaganda, Bernays expounded on "the mechanism" that controls the public mind. "Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society," Bernays wrote, "constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.... ur minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of...."

Almost overnight, under Bernays' mass mind-molding, the popular image of fluoride - which at the time was being widely sold as rat and bug poison - became that of a beneficial provider of gleaming smiles, absolutely safe, and good for children,

The prospect of the government mass-medicating the water supplies with a well-known rat poison to prevent a non-lethal disease flipped the switches of skeptics across the country. But, under Bernays' spell, fluoride's opponents were permanently engraved on the public mind as crackpots and right-wing loonies.

In 1950 the PHS officially endorsed fluoridation. Since then, two-thirds of the nation's reservoirs have been fluoridated and about 143,000 tons of fluoride are pumped in yearly to keep them that way.

Today, companies forced to reduce their fluoride emission can even recoup some of the expense by selling the waste to cities for water fluoridation.

http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/000062.htm

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. My thoughts exactly

If you want your teeth to rot and incur jillions of dollars in dental bills, then don't drink water from your tap.

I on the other hand appreciate having flouride in my water.

[chlamor]

20. Fluoride is good for my teeth?

Hmmm. That sure is what we are told. Maybe it's not so. Maybe it's not good for the thyroid or liver. Maybe it is not good for the teeth either. Fluoride is worthless for teeth. Most heavily fluoridated state in US-Kentucky. Should have great teeth everyone drinks water. Not so. it's easy to research and debunk the lies the PR machine has been spinnig for years. It is amazing how many believe blindly what they are told. Oh well.


It is not a fringe movement. It is being marginalized by the media and hasn't been well reported on. My book attempts to address that. The Manhattan Project, I mentioned one leading fluoride researcher, scientist, Robert Kehoe, the second was the name, a fellow a scientist by the name of Dr. Harold Hodge. For most of the Cold War , Dr. Hodge was the leading scientist assuring the nation of the safety and effectiveness of adding fluoride e to water supplies. Dr. Hodge had his public hat, he had his private hat. He was the senior toxicologist for the Manhattan Project to build the world's first atomic bomb. Fluoride is a key ingredient in industry used for making aluminum. It's used for making steel. It is used for producing high-octane gasoline, to name a few industries the dental story is a minor story. The real issue is pollution outside these industrial plants and pollution inside the plants. Industries are on the hook for millions and millions of dollars for potential damage for injuries to workers. There's a medical study commissioned by industry at the University Of Cincinnati . In the 1950's which shows that fluoride is profoundly injurious to lungs and lymph nodes in experimental animals. That study was buried.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/17/1437211

[Hippo_Tron]

26. Are you a dentist?

I know that my mother is. She says that flouride is great for your teeth. I'll take her word and her 4 years of dental school and 24 years of practice over your word.

[chlamor]

40. Is this the same stuff?

The chemicals used to fluoridate 90% of public drinking water are industrial grade hazardous wastes captured in the air pollution-control scrubber systems of the phosphate fertilizer industry, called silicofluorides. ("Fluorine Recovery in the Fertilizer Industry - A Review," Phosphorus & Potassium, No. 103, Sept/Oct 1979.) (Also, see 1-1: "Fluoridation: A Mandate to Dump Toxic Waste in the Name of Public Health", George Glasser, Journalist, St. Petersburg, FL, July 22, 1995.)

These wastes contain a number of toxic contaminants including lead, arsenic, cadmium and even some radioactive isotopes. The phosphate rock mined in Florida for this purpose has also been mined for its uranium content!

If not dumped in our public water supplies, these silicofluorides would have to be neutralized at the highest rated hazardous waste facility at a cost of $1.40 per gallon. The cost could increase, depending on how much cadmium, lead, uranium, and arsenic are also present. The silicofluorides still contain these heavy metals, and other pollutants, when they are dumped into our water systems. According to Dr. Ludwig Gross, even if these pollutants are so dilute that they meet current regulatory standards, concerns remain about synergistic effects and the toxicity of both the silicofluoride ion and the bare fluoride ion itself.

[bloom]

84. Dentists

have also defended mercury (amalgams) for years - that doesn't mean that they aren't just regurgitating what they've learned - it doesn't make them "safe".


My new motto - is question everything - esp. if the gov't defends it.

[K-W]

99. Since when does question = desmiss out of hand?

Being skeptical doesnt mean autmoatically concluding everything from an authority is wrong, and everything on an indy internet site is right.

[bloom]

101. "dismiss out of hand"

I didn't say I was.

I don't know where you got your assumptions from what I wrote.

[K-W]

102. I made no assumption.

That was my opinion on your take on dentists and medical school.

[bloom]

103. I think dentists and doctors

learn lots of things that are true or are at least as true as anyone knows at the time.

I also think they are probably fairly conservative about new info as it becomes available and are not the first ones to go out on a limb.

Sometimes I think dentists and doctors might be influenced by big pharma - but that doesn't mean that I dismiss everything they do.

I just keep a healthy skepticism and don't presume that because someone has a dental or medical degree that they know everything there is to know about a subject.

[chlamor]

104. The Fluoride Myth doesn't hold water by any measure

The Fluoride Myth Doesn't Hold Water

 The big hope for fluoride was its ability to immunize children's developing teeth against cavities. Rates of dental caries were supposed to plummet in areas where water was treated. Yet decades of experience and worldwide research have contradicted this expectation numerous times. Here are just a few examples:

 *     In British Columbia, only 11% of the population drinks fluoridated water, as opposed to 40-70% in other Canadian regions. Yet British Columbia has the lowest rate of tooth decay in Canada. In addition, the lowest rates of dental caries within the province are found in areas that do not have their water supplies fluoridated.(33)

 *      According to a Sierra Club study, people in unfluoridated developing nations have fewer dental caries than those living in industrialized nations. As a result, they conclude that "fluoride is not essential to dental health."(34)

*     In 1986-87, the largest study on fluoridation and tooth decay ever was performed. The subjects were 39,000 school children between 5 and 17 living in 84 areas around the country. A third of the places were fluoridated, a third were partially fluoridated, and a third were not. Results indicate no statistically significant differences in dental decay between fluoridated and unfluoridated cities.(35) The benefit to fluoridated communities, if there is any, amounts to 0.6 fewer decayed tooth surfaces per child, which is less than one percent of the tooth surfaces in a child's mouth.(36)

<snip>

A 1999 review of literature conducted by Dr. Hardy Limeback, a long-time advocate of water fluoridation in Canada, indicates that the topical effect of fluoride is its primary mechanism for the prevention of dental caries. Swallowing fluoridated water is ineffective and unnecessary. Limeback concludes that everyone working in the dental health field must examine more closely the risks and benefits of fluoride in all its delivery forms.(49) According to Dr. Limeback, head of preventive dentistry at the University of Toronto, 'Dental decay rates in North America are so low that water fluoridation provides little to no benefit whatsoever these days.  In fact, studies show that when you turn the water fluoridation taps off and look for dental decay rates, they don't move whatsoever.  There is no increase in dental decay when you stop fluoridating.(50)  Limeback adds that what you do see is an increase in unsightly dental fluorosis.(51)51 Today fluorosis occurs on two or more teeth in 30% of children in areas where the water is fluoridated, and not all in its mildest form.(52)

<snip>

This statement is flawed on several accounts. First, as we've seen, research does not support the effectiveness of fluoridation for preventing tooth disease. Second, purported benefits are supposedly for children, not adults and senior citizens. At about age 13, any advantage fluoridation might offer comes to an end, and less than 1% of the fluoridated water supply reaches this population.(55) And third, fluoridation has never been proven safe. On the contrary, numerous studies directly link fluoridation to disease, including skeletal fluorosis, dental fluorosis, thyroid disorders, brain and kidney damage, Alzheimer's disease, lead poisoning, and several rare forms of cancer. This alone should force us to reconsider its use.

http://www.garynull.com/Documents/Dental/Fluoride/fluoride3.htm

[chlamor]

96. Most Dentists

and Doctors fall in with the party line especially when careers are at stake. hope you will pass the info on this thread to your Mother so she can speak out against this toxin.


Excerpt:

Mullenix recalls the response of a Forsyth administrator to her findings: "You are going against what the dentists and everybody have been publishing for 50 years, that this is safe and effective. You must be wrong. ... You are jeopardizing the entire support of this entire institution. If you publish these studies, NIDR is not going to fund any more research at Forsyth." Her studies were published in Neurotoxicology & Teratology. But within days after the paper's acceptance, her contract with Forsyth was not renewed.


IS FLUORIDE REALLY ALL THAT SAFE?

The Fluoride Deception, by Christopher Bryson, Seven Stories Press, 2004, 374 pages, $24.95 (ISBN 1-58322-526-9)
 
"The Fluoride Deception" reads like a whodunit. There are conspiracies, cover-ups, human casualties, and broken careers. The prime suspects in this toxic thriller are compounds of fluoride; the coconspirators represent industry, the military, and the public health community. At the book's ending, the suspect chemicals are not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but we are left with compelling evidence that powerful interests with high financial stakes have colluded to prematurely close honest discussion and investigation into fluoride toxicity.

Christopher Bryson has woven together an impressive body of evidence that brings into question the near universally held view in the medical and public health communities that fluoridation of public water supplies at current levels (about 1 ppm) is unambiguously safe and does not involve any serious health or environmental trade-offs. Bryson conducted extensive interviews, read many scientific papers, and burrowed through archival sources (there are more than 100 pages of reference notes) to make his argument that fluoride toxicity, even at the levels found in public water supplies, is not a closed case. Some private interests, he alleges, will seek to destroy careers to ensure that scientific studies that raise doubts about the safety of fluoride never get funded--or if they do, never get published.

<snip>

"The Fluoride Deception" will leave any open-minded readers feeling uneasy about the acceptable levels of fluoride in drinking water, as well as the cumulative sources from dental hygiene products. But the deeper lessons of this story, going back to classified military research during World War II, are the book's insights into the threats to open inquiry in public health and environmental science. Premature closure of debate in science undercuts one of its unique features--a feature that distinguishes it from other forms of fixing belief--namely, science's self-correcting function. Without a scientific culture that supports reexamination of "no risk" results, however strongly held, we may find our public health and environmental policies resting on weak or faulty foundations, which can prolong our blindness to preventable illnesses.

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/books/8233/8233books.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. This is one of the oldest and tiredest

debates. I have been drinking flouridated water nearly all my life and guess what? I am alive and very healthy.

Sorry, I like my water with the chemicals in it. Deal with it.

[Squatch]

71. Teeth are made of the mineral apatite

which is a phosphate mineral that can either have OH, Cl, of F anions.

The form of apatite that includes the hydroxyl group is a lot weaker than the one that includes the Fluorine anion. These ions can freely substitute in the crystal lattice and all three are usually present in every specimen although some specimens have been close to 100% in one or the other.

http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/phosphat/apatite/apatite.htm

[Midnight Rambler]

2. Are our precious bodily fluids in danger?

[jeff30997]

4. Lol

[chlamor]

8. Thought you might want to know that yes they are

CHRISTOPHER BRYSON: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's -- it's a media swirl, Juan, as the grassroots citizen movement against water fluoridation of t hat fact came into being almost immediately .... the public health service had been against adding fluoride to water for years. In 1950, they did a complete about-face, a flip flop. And the citizens across the country were outraged that this rat poison was going to be added to the water supplies. Today the fluorides that goes in our drinking water is almost exclusively raw industrial pollution from the Florida Phosphate Industry. It's a waste that's scrubbed from the smokestacks and trucked in tankers and dumped into reservoirs. That is a raw industrial poison.

AMY GOODMAN: Wait a second. Rat poison?

CHRISTOPHER BRYSON: Yes. Sodium chloride is used as a rat poison for a long time.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/17/1437211

[donco6]

14. Sodium Chloride is table salt, honey. eom

[Still_Loves_John]

16. hahahah

I love how he doesn't respond to this at all. I mean, honestly, any shred of credibility you might have is obliterated when you start ranting about the dangers of sodium chloride

[chlamor]

34. I did respond

I'm a slow typist.

"Tragically," he continued, "that means we're not just dumping toxic fluoride into our drinking water. We're also exposing innocent, unsuspecting people to deadly elements of lead, arsenic and radium, all of them carcinogenic. Because of the cumulative properties of toxins, the detrimental effects on human health are catastrophic." A recent study at the University of Toronto confirmed Dr. Limeback's worst fears. "Residents of cities that fluoridate have double the fluoride in the hip bones vis-à-vis the balance of the population. Worse, we discovered that fluoride is actually altering the basic architecture of human bones."

Skeletal fluorosis is a debilitating condition that occurs when fluoride accumulates in bones, making them extremely weak and brittle. The earliest symptoms?

"Mottled and brittle teeth," Dr. Limeback told me. "In Canada we are now spending more money treating dental fluorosis than we do treating cavities. That includes my own practice."

One of the most obvious living experiments today, Dr. Limeback believes, is a proof-positive comparison between any two Canadian cities. "Here in Toronto we've been fluoridating for 36 years. Yet Vancouver - which has never fluoridated - has a cavity rate lower than Toronto's." And, he pointed out, "cavity rates are low all across the industrialized world including Europe, which is 98% fluoride free. Low because of improved standards of living, less refined sugar, regular dental checkups, flossing and frequent brushing. Now less than 2 cavities per child Canada-wide,' he said.

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/fluoride.htm

[lostinacause]

37. I don't know if you heard of the town apparently trying to ban

di-hydrogen oxide (H20). People get scared of anything with a complicated name.

[chlamor]

39. Hope

you have read the response and other info. Most European countries have pulled fluoride out of their water. England and Ireland haven't and have the worst rate of dental caries in EU. The author in interview misspoke at that moment Encourage you to read whole interview. The fluoride in your water, coffee, juice etc. is highly toxic. Choose not to look into it and keep drinking the stuff. Just trying to inform. Also it is interesting for me to be looking at the talking points put forth by the PR cos. in the 50's and read some of the posts in this thread-they are one and the same. Kind of scary how that stuff embeds itself in peoples minds and then they regurgitate it with no second thoughts. They know what they are doing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

62. False. Ireland has the lowest rate of dental caries in Europe

amongst children (ie those who have benefited from Ireland's use of fluoride).

Average number of teeth decayed, missing or filled among 5-7 year olds.

1 Eire (Eastern Health Board) 0.9 (1993)
2 Spain 1.0 (1994)
3 Denmark 1.3 (1994)
4 Finland 1.4 (1991)
Italy (Milan area) 1.4 (1994)
Norway 1.4 (1993)
7 Greece 1.5 (1994)
8 Belgium (Flanders) 1.7 (1989-91)
France 1.7 (1993)
Netherlands 1.7 (1992-93)
11 United Kingdom 2.0 (1993)
12 Austria 2.1 (1991)
13 Switzerland 2.2 (1988)
14 Germany (East) 2.5 (1991-94)
15 Germany (West) 2.6 (1994)
16 Czech Republic 2.7 (1993)
Slovak Republic 2.7 (1987)
18 Hungary 3.7 (1991)
19 Slovenia 3.9 (1993)
20 Portugal 4.2 (1990)
21 Lithuania 4.4 (1993-94)
Romania 4.4 (1995)
23 Poland 5.4 (1993)

http://www.bfsweb.org/documents/denthlth.pdf

Adn that's without considering the consumption of sweets and soft drinks, which are high in Ireland.

The daily consumption of sweets also varies. Levels for 15-year-olds, for example, range from 40–50% in Belgium (French), Ireland, Israel, Italy, Malta, Scotland and The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to 20% or below in Austria, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Lithuania, Norway and Sweden.

Daily soft-drink consumption by young people aged 11–15 shows similar extremes, with similar groups of countries at the high and low end of the range: for example, over 40% in Israel and Scotland but under 15% in Denmark and Finland.

http://www.euro.who.int/document/mediacentre/fs0404e.pdf

[chlamor]

23. He mispoke

in the interview-he meant sodium fluoride. The fluoride that goes into our water is actually
hexafluosilisicic (sp?) acid. 96% of it comes from one Cargill phosphate plant in Hillsborough Bay, Florida. They get it from the scrubbers that clean the smokestacks.

Anyway the fluoride tablets that the dentist gives are also toxic though quite mild. Only topical scrubbing, avoiding sugar etc. prevents cavities. Fluoride in water is toxic scam. Read more if you wish I will post history as we go along.

Thyroid problems becoming epidemic. Hmmm?

[donco6]

30. This is the same baloney they were spreading in

Colorado just a few months ago. Thankfully the public didn't buy it.

[chlamor]

36. The public

has been propagandized for years on this. Of course it is best to trust Cargill when it comes to our health. Easy to write things off difficult to investigate.

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. A moment ago the fluoride was hydrogen fluoride

now you say it's "hexafluosilisicic (sp?) acid". Make your mind up.

[ProfessorGAC]

69. No It's Not

That's not the fluoride compound that goes into the water supply. Sorry, but that is simply wrong. Go to any city's water quality website and see.

Your facts are completely in error, and the source of these compounds do not come from pollution scrubbers. The fluoride compounds are regulated by APHA and FDA, since specific health claims are made. Hence, the manufacture is covered by cGMP. They could NEVER meet the cGMP standard using a effluent scrubber.

Your whole original cite is utter nonsense.
The Professor

[ExCiber]

24. To you it may be just table salt, but

Once it gets mixed with them chem-trails you know what you have?

Salt water....so there.

Try drinking a glass of that with your vodka. Se what happens to your mind.....what? me? no, I'm not talking to you. Just leave me alone! go back inside the television damn it! Stay away from me! Go away!! Stop the voices, make them go away......

[ContraBass Black]

48. Salt can kill.

If you ingest enough of it, you'll die of thirst.

[karlrschneider]

41. Could I get a dab of whatever you are smoking?

:eyes:
:eyes:

[ConsAreLiars]

59. Uuhh, you do know that that "poison" sodium chloride is just salt,

don't you? If the reference was actually to sodium flouride, the it is rated as one of the "least hazardous" chemical compounds: http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/hazard-indicators.tcl?edf_substance_id=7681%2d49%2d4

[high density]

18. I seem to have broken the string in my leg.

[Throckmorton]

3. Yes, this is why I only drink rain water,

and Pure Grain Alcohol.

I also deny women my life essence.

[OrlandoGator]

5. I think this is why the Russians only drink vodka.

I'll have distilled rainwater only. They're trying to steal our precious bodily fluids!

[jmowreader]

15. There are also studies underway...

to fluoridate ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream!

And I always thought that if they were gonna flouridate foodstuffs, that would be a good one to start out with.

[xray s]

7. Make mine bourbon and pure rain water...

Ripper: A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard core commie works.

Mandrake: Jack... Jack, listen, tell me, ah... when did you first become, well, develop this theory.

Ripper: Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.

[chlamor]

13. But But Doesn't it fight tooth decay?

I've been told that all my life it must be so. Oh forget it I dunwannaknow.


But John R. Lee, M.D., a fluoride toxicity researcher since 1972, says the "myth" that fluoride fights tooth decay has been perpetuated via "clever propaganda." He believes adding fluoride to the water supply was a contrivance to dispose of waste byproducts from the fertilizer and aluminum industries. Health officials admit fluoride can be produced as an industrial waste byproduct, but they insist the chemical is purified before it's added to water. 

"The Environmental Protection Agency has recognized the potential for the fluoride ion to cause adverse health effects and has established a Maximum Contaminant Level," says Joyce Donahue, Ph.D., a toxicologist in the EPA's Office of Water. But Wright claims that even in minuscule amounts, the chemical accumulates in body tissue and inhibits the action of an enzyme responsible for repairing damaged DNA, which left alone can lead to abnormal cell growth and cancer. And as for a study recently published in the Annals of Internal Medicine suggesting that fluoride may play a role in managing early osteoporosis, Lee calls the findings nonsense. "The effect of fluoride on bones is to make them thick with calcium deposits, but not the same as real bone. It doesn't mean the bones are stronger," he says. Adds Wright, " is one of the most toxic materials on the planet, and allowing it to be added to our drinking water is unfathomable." 

http://www.kefir.net/spray/fluoride.htm

[The Magistrate]

21. Just For The Record, Sir

You are aware this was a great cause of the Birchite right and similar reactionary loons in the fifties and sixties?

It never ceases to amaze me who many old chestnuts of that ilk get gussied up nowadays in leftist gear for recirculation....

[chlamor]

28. Nope

Don't care for the Leftist-Rightist labels. It is good to keep this on the fringe though. That is exactly what the PR doctors prescribed. Who was Edward Bernays?

[psychopomp]

43. From Dr. Strangelove - great movie!

General Ripper's office. General Ripper moves over to sit next to Captain Mandrake in a close shot. He wraps his arm around Captain Mandrake's shoulder. Captain Mandrake looks uncomfortable and terrified. "Have you ever seen a commie drink a glass of water?" "I can't say I have." General Ripper continues: "Vodka, that's what they drink. On no account will a commie ever drink water. Captain Mandrake can't believe he's listening to this conversation. "Mandrake, water is the source of all life. 70% of you is water. You and I need fresh pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids." Captain Mandrake sits nervously fussing with a wrapper from a stick of gum. The more General Ripper talks, the more Captain Mandrake begins to titter nervously. "Have you ever wondered why I only drink distilled water and rainwater, and only pure grain alcohol? Have you ever heard of fluoridation? Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?"

[Jamastiene]

10. Can't live in a plastic bubble, your system will go

into shock when you have to touch the duck tape and plastic sheeting when Bush's approval ratings get into the 20% range and he decides it's time for a big "terrorist" attack to keep knees knocking and up his approval rating...

I drink only sewer water, right out of the gallon jug Food Lion sells it in. It says it comes from a mountain stream, but I know what nasty people do in streams and it's not funny. Just because it says it's a stream doesn't mean you have to create on of your own to go along with it. Hahaha. Drinking water in a jug. Only $0.69. :P

[chlamor]

32. Why have these countries stopped fluoridating their water?

Water fluoridation was stopped in the following World Health Organization (WHO) Countries:
• Federal Republic of Germany (introduced 1952, stopped 1971)
• Sweden (introduced 1952, stopped 1971)
• Netherlands (introduced 1953, stopped 1976)
• Czechslovakia (introduced 1958, stopped 1988/90)
• German Democratic Republic (introduced 1959, stopped 1990/93)
• Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (introduced 1960, stopped 1990)
• Finland (introduced 1959, stopped 1993)
• Japan (introduced 1952, stopped 1972)

"The reason for these cessation's of water fluoridation was not a political one, but the consequence of scientific discussion of its effectiveness and side effects."

"Dentists and WHO experts have predicted a very large caries increase ("a tide of caries") after termination of fluoridation. Analyses of the data, however, reveal a significant decrease in dental caries (caries decline) after suspension of water fluoridation in Japan, in the Netherlands, in Prague, in the German Democratic Republic, and elsewhere. Never has any real increase in dental caries been observed after water fluoridation was discontinued."

http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-3/313-171.htm 

[Skip Intro]

11. haven't had tap water in years

I stopped because of what I saw when I held a glass of tap water into the sunlight - what the hell is all that stuff floating around in it? I won't even feed tap water to my cat.

I don't doubt for a minute tho, that public water is contaminated with unsafe chemicals. Why should the water be any cleaner than the air?

[Horse with no Name]

17. We get letters from our city

That tell us our water is hazardous to our health and not fit for human consumption without boiling.
You can imagine what it looks like when you hold it up to the light--kind of like those freeze dried seahorses you add water to,lol.

[left15]

78. It's not just your tap water,

It's also in the tap water that goes into all beer, soda, bottled water, and non 100% juice.

Unless they have their own spring, beverage produces use city water just like everyone else. Many will filter it, and do some degree of de-ionizing, but in the end, all thoes bottles and cans are filled with city water.

[Placebo]

19. I only drink purified water.

So I should be okay.

[Psephos]

22. Even bigger problem: tap water is full of dihydrogen oxide

A recent study found high concentrations of dihydrogen oxide in EVERY municipal water supply they tested.

EVERY ONE.

Rest assured there are measurable amounts of it present in your own body. WHERE'S THE OUTRAGE?

[OrlandoGator]

25. It's dihydrogen monoxide...really nasty stuff and our water is full of it.

Sometimes there's even traces of sodium chloride and dihydrogen monoxide in the water. Frankly, it scares me.

[donco6]

29. I've heard you can actually separate the compounds

from diH monO and get hydrogen and oxygen. And that hydrogen EXPLODES!

EEEK!

[chlamor]

38. keep an open mind donco6

Where does it come from?

The chemicals used to fluoridate 90% of public drinking water are industrial grade hazardous wastes captured in the air pollution-control scrubber systems of the phosphate fertilizer industry, called silicofluorides. ("Fluorine Recovery in the Fertilizer Industry - A Review," Phosphorus & Potassium, No. 103, Sept/Oct 1979.) (Also, see 1-1: "Fluoridation: A Mandate to Dump Toxic Waste in the Name of Public Health", George Glasser, Journalist, St. Petersburg, FL, July 22, 1995.)

These wastes contain a number of toxic contaminants including lead, arsenic, cadmium and even some radioactive isotopes. The phosphate rock mined in Florida for this purpose has also been mined for its uranium content!

If not dumped in our public water supplies, these silicofluorides would have to be neutralized at the highest rated hazardous waste facility at a cost of $1.40 per gallon. The cost could increase, depending on how much cadmium, lead, uranium, and arsenic are also present. The silicofluorides still contain these heavy metals, and other pollutants, when they are dumped into our water systems. According to Dr. Ludwig Gross, even if these pollutants are so dilute that they meet current regulatory standards, concerns remain about synergistic effects and the toxicity of both the silicofluoride ion and the bare fluoride ion itself.

http://www.fluoridedebate.com/question01.html

[AngryAmish]

44. Dihydrogen monoxide is implicated in most drowning deaths

[ChemEng]

27. Those damn chemical companies....

Floride in the water! Oh me! Oh my!

[chlamor]

33. When is fluoride fluorosilisicic acid? When it is in your water

But wait our Corporate/Government cares don't they?

Is fluoride toxic? Science shows fluoride is more toxic than lead (Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products-1984) The majority of fluoride is captured into ponds from EPA required smokestack scrubbers and sold untreated to municipalities. The technical name is fluorosilicic acid, and yes it is a toxic waste that can totally dissolve any cement barriers.
    
Is fluoride a cumulative toxin? Of course it is; that's how it's supposed to work.  It attaches to the calcium in bones. That is why dentists apply it to your teeth. However, when you drink it in water it enters the blood stream and attaches to the first bones it comes in contact with. Does fluoride cause hip fractures? Yes. Hip fractures were caused inadvertently in a study designed to prove fluoride prevented osteoporosis. In the trials elderly women were given 75 mg. per day of sodium fluoride and compared to a control group. The study ended abruptly with the horrifying discovery that fluoride caused these fractures. In light of this study another study looked at low levels of fluoride in drinking water at the optimal  level of 1 ppm. Hip fractures were 27% higher in women and 41% higher in men living in Brigham City, the largest fluoridated community in Utah, compared to non-fluoridated Logan and Cedar City. These studies were verified in five additional studies including the French study (JAMA 1995; 273:775) that showed an 86% increase in hip fractures in fluoridated communities. Additionally, Toronto which has been fluoridated for 35 years has twice the hip fractures as Quebec which has never been fluoridated.  

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/fluoride.htm

[The Magistrate]

47. A Fascinating Site, Sir

Have not seen people peddling Laetril in years. Does no one bother to think up new quackeries on their own nowadays? Is the profession wholly fallen to persons without the slightest spark of originality, able only to pluck up the efforts of others before them, like so many jack-daws come upon a heap of broken glass?

[NoPasaran]

67. Laetril?

Gosh, that takes me back. Back to when republicans were in favor of balanced budgets!

[lostinacause]

35. Doesn't fluoride behave differently in it's aqueous form?

[alarimer]

42. Did you know that dihydrogen monoxide is also a poison?

Some potential dangers:


Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.



http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html


On Edit:
I see I am not the only one aware of the dangers of this posion. ;)

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[izzybeans]

56. Yeah the mods are trolls.

whatever.:wow:

[oblivious]

57. Judge for yourself then. Are any of these comments constructive?

They are allowed to try to shut down discussion with sarcasm and mockery and I get deleted for pointing this out. Does that tell you something? Chlamor has provided a well-researched and well-documented presentation here. This is a good opportunity to hear both sides. But here is a sample of the responses. Nothing but nonsense. Not a decent reply among them. And I'm the one who gets deleted???????

Quotes from above:
- not this crap again
- That's very much like the arguments these guys use.
- Are you a dentist?
- This is one of the oldest and tiredest debates
- People get scared of anything with a complicated name.
- This is the same baloney they were spreading in Colorado just a few months ago. Thankfully the public didn't buy it.
- Once it gets mixed with them chem-trails you know what you have?
- Could I get a dab of whatever you are smoking?
- It never ceases to amaze me who many old chestnuts of that ilk get gussied up nowadays in leftist gear for recirculation....
- Floride in the water! Oh me! Oh my!

[izzybeans]

70. I didn't see mockery I saw pointing out the obvious.

The people mocking were the ones posting the information.
Didn't you catch all the dihydrogen oxide posts?

http://www.magicsoil.com/DiHy/DiHydrogen%20Oxide.htm

I defer to the Magistrate on this one. His/her responses are on target.

[chlamor]

73. Don't defer

to anyone. Do research. Do one thing on this topic. Find out whatCargill's plant in Hillsborough Bay, Florida does. Find out EXACTLY what the substance is that comes out of the scrubber. Find out EXACTLY where that substance goes. Don't defer, don't speculate investigate.
Most people don't have a clue what is in their Food&Water. Find out.

Most of Europe has banned the stuff. Wonder why? Because they know what it is and have seen the studies. Are you willing to look into it? Challenge your assumptions especially those which come to you via the PR machine.

[izzybeans]

74. Yes challenge assumptions. That's good advice for us both.

[chlamor]

75. Did you Know?

Did you know? flouride

* The vast majority of western Europe has rejected water fluoridation.

* Two-thirds of US communities, when given the chance to vote, have voted against fluoridation. Over 70 US communities have rejected water fluoridation since 1999.

* The fluoride chemical added to water is an unprocessed, industrial waste-product from the pollution scrubbers of the phosphate fertilizer industry.

* A growing body of evidence indicates that water fluoridation is both ineffective and unnecessary.

* Fluoride's primary 'benefits' are topical, not systemic. Thus, there is no need to swallow fluoride.

* Children are receiving too much fluoride today. There is a need to reduce, not increase, current exposures.

* As a result of increased exposures to fluoride, near-epidemic numbers of children are developing dental fluorosis (damage to tooth-forming cells).

* Excessive exposure to fluoride has been linked to systemic health problems, including arthritis, hip fracture, cancer, thyroid disorders, and brain effects.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

[izzybeans]

79. Still need more info.

I looked at that site and then checked the scientific references via medline.

The activists are focusing on the side effects being discovered in the lit. Your point about it being topical and not systemic is right on. However, I still find no evidence of the conspiracy monkey anywhere. I see confusion in public and scientific discourse and I see technological risks (particularly in your topical vs. systemic dualism). Wouldn't it be comforting to find out that techno-risks were spread on purpose and not built into the institutions themselves? I wish I could find my Montgomery Burns but he's just not there. The risks are something we must discover and eliminate. No one could foresee the future, especially at a time when trust in scientific discovery was at pretty much its peak in this country. Here take this pill it will make it all go away.

Stick to expanding the risk perception on this issue and demand some democratic participation in whatever decision making body this is relevant to. You'll have more success of doing so if you drop the conspiracy monkey off on the corner and focus on the risks of introducing Fluoride systemically in large quantities. We already get enough of it in our toothpaste to cover the topical part.

[chlamor]

80. Fluoridation is unsafe

If you wish I'll give you the whole fluoride story which goes back to Industrial Revolution in Europe and what was occuring in tort law at time regarding industrial pollutants, particularly those in the Aluminum business, particularly in Belgium. The American industrialists saw this and went to work to avoid litigation and costly disposal fees. It is a conspiracy and it is called organized greed. Read a book called "The Fluoride Deception". Or look through the Food& Water archives on their site. Also read the label on your toothpaste which warns people about fluoride. Avoid the stuff. It is THE primary culprit with underactive thyroids.
Must say your comments were one of the few which showed some curiosity. Also, when I worked on this issue with Paul Connett who knows everything on this issue, he advised the same, avoid "conspiracy" there are plenty of other reasons to avoid it. We kept it out of our water supply and more communities are having it removed.




Fluoridation is UNSAFE because:

1) It accumulates in our bones and makes them more brittle and prone to fracture. The weight of evidence from animal studies, clinical studies and epidemiological studies on this is overwhelming. Lifetime exposure to fluoride will contribute to higher rates of hip fracture in the elderly.
2) It accumulates in our pineal gland, possibly lowering the production of melatonin a very important regulatory hormone (Luke, 1997, 2001).
3) It damages the enamel (dental fluorosis) of a high percentage of children. Between 30 and 50% of children have dental fluorosis on at least two teeth in optimally fluoridated communities (Heller et al, 1997 and McDonagh et al, 2000).
4) There are serious, but yet unproven, concerns about a connection between fluoridation and osteosarcoma in young men (Cohn, 1992), as well as fluoridation and the current epidemics of both arthritis and hypothyroidism.
5) In animal studies fluoride at 1 ppm in drinking water increases the uptake of aluminum into the brain (Varner et al, 1998).
6) Counties with 3 ppm or more of fluoride in their water have lower fertility rates (Freni, 1994).
7) In human studies the fluoridating agents most commonly used in the US not only increase the uptake of lead into children's blood (Masters and Coplan, 1999, 2000) but are also associated with an increase in violent behavior.
8) The margin of safety between the so-called therapeutic benefit of reducing dental decay and many of these end points is either nonexistent or precariously low.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

[izzybeans]

82. Yeah I've been going through the medline database

The research is a mixed bag as is typical with risk communication. In the past 5 years the positive and negative studies are nearly equal in number (rough estimate I wasn't keeping track and only read abstracts). The negative studies are focusing on either the side effects or unforeseen consequences (e.g. headaches in humans, lead conent of blood etc. and these studies only came to tentative conclusions because the source of lead is unknown for instance). The positive studies focused on "intended use" such as enamel and bone hardening. It's good to focus on the risks and consider whether fluoridation is necessary or should be discontinued.

I wouldn't deny there are risks associated with technology, especially biotechnology. Nearly all of them are unknown at the time of introduction. But the politics of risk are very hairy-there is a lot at stake for all involved.

[chlamor]

85. Fluoridation is ineffective

Interesting to note the two countries who still fluoridate water in EU are Ireland and England and they have the worst rates of dental caries. In the states we can look to Kentucky in the same light.

Cargill saves several hundred thousand dollars each year with this scandal as they 'give away' this waste to communities therefore avoiding the costs of proper disposal. I believe the exact figure is right around 6000,000 dollars/yr.



Fluoridation is INEFFECTIVE because:

1) Major dental researchers concede that fluoride's benefits are topical not systemic (Fejerskov 1981; Carlos 1983; CDC 1999, 2001; Limeback 1999; Locker 1999; Featherstone 2000).
2) Major dental researchers also concede that fluoride is ineffective at preventing pit and fissure tooth decay, which is 85% of the tooth decay experienced by children (JADA 1984; Gray 1987; White 1993; Pinkham 1999).
3) Several studies indicate that dental decay is coming down just as fast, if not faster, in non-fluoridated industrialized countries as fluoridated ones (Diesendorf, 1986; Colquhoun, 1994; World Health Organization, Online).
4) The largest survey conducted in the US showed only a minute difference in tooth decay between children who had lived all their lives in fluoridated compared to non-fluoridated communities. The difference was not clinically significant nor shown to be statistically significant (Brunelle & Carlos, 1990).
5) The worst tooth decay in the United States occurs in the poor neighborhoods of our largest cities, the vast majority of which have been fluoridated for decades.
6) When fluoridation has been halted in communities in Finland, former East Germany, Cuba and Canada, tooth decay did not go up but continued to go down (Maupome et al, 2001; Kunzel and Fischer, 1997, 2000; Kunzel et al, 2000 and Seppa et al, 2000).

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

[muriel_volestrangler]

105. That's a lie: I corrected you on that in post #62

but you've ignored it, and repeated your falsehood about Ireland having a high rate of decay. You also ought to know that only about 10% of water in Britain is fluoridtaed, so it's useless for your 'examples' (and anyway, it's around the middle of the table of Eurpoean dental decay).

Stop spreading disinformation on this board, especially on a health subject. It's unethical.

[chlamor]

107. Sorry

We are both wrong as relates to Ireland. Ireland is in the middle of the pack in rate of caries for adults. Measuring for children 5-7 is hardly a gauge. So my apologies for any Ireland inaccuracies. As for the rest ,it all stands, if you want to point to specific examples tell me what they are. Read it all and then respond. Oh yeah and why is fluoride BANNED in most of Europe and the majority of folks in Ireland want it banned there also. Answer: Because they ,unlike the majority of Americans, know the stuff is toxic and worthless for cavities. Unethical is what Cargill does as a cost cutting measure, putting an extraordinarily toxic chemical in your water.
I challenge you to do research on this topic, you'll see how wicked this stuff is and how you have been sold a lie.
Keep your eye on the ball. The fluoridation of your water is a scam and that is unethical. Do you doubt this:

In his 1928 book, Propaganda, Bernays expounded on "the mechanism" that controls the public mind. "Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society," Bernays wrote, "constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.... ur minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of...."

Almost overnight, under Bernays' mass mind-molding, the popular image of fluoride - which at the time was being widely sold as rat and bug poison - became that of a beneficial provider of gleaming smiles, absolutely safe, and good for children,

The prospect of the government mass-medicating the water supplies with a well-known rat poison to prevent a non-lethal disease flipped the switches of skeptics across the country. But, under Bernays' spell, fluoride's opponents were permanently engraved on the public mind as crackpots and right-wing loonies.

In 1950 the PHS officially endorsed fluoridation. Since then, two-thirds of the nation's reservoirs have been fluoridated and about 143,000 tons of fluoride are pumped in yearly to keep them that way.

Today, companies forced to reduce their fluoride emission can even recoup some of the expense by selling the waste to cities for water fluoridation.

[chlamor]

81. More Info- Alcoa and Fluoride

As early as 1850, fluoride emissions from the iron and copper industries poisoned crops, livestock, and people. By the turn of the century, lawsuits and burdensome regulations threatened the existence of these industries in Germany and England.

In 1933, when the world's first major air pollution disaster struck Belgium's Meuse Valley. Several thousand people became violently ill and 60 died. Kaj Roholm, the world's leading authority on fluoride hazards, placed the blame on fluoride.

It was abundantly clear to both industry and government that US industrial expansion would necessitate releasing millions of tons of waste fluoride into the environment. It was equally clear that US industrial expansion would be accompanied by complaints and lawsuits over fluoride damage on an unprecedented scale.

<snip>

Liability Into Asset

During the industrial explosion of the 1920s, the US Public Health Service (PHS) was under the jurisdiction of Treasury Secretary Andrew W. Mellon, a founder and major stockholder of the Aluminum Company of America (Alcoa). In 1931, a PHS dentist named H. Trendley Dean was dispatched to remote towns in the West where drinking-water wells contained high concentrations of natural fluoride. His mission: to determine how much fluoride people could tolerate without sustaining obvious damage to their teeth. Dean found that teeth in these high-fluoride towns were often discolored and eroded, but he also reported that they appeared to have fewer cavities than average.

The University of Cincinnati's Kettering Laboratory, funded largely by top fluoride-emitters such as Alcoa, quickly dominated fluoride safety research. A book by Kettering scientist (and Reynolds Metals consultant) E. J. Largent, was admittedly written in part to "aid industry in lawsuits arising from fluoride damage." Nonetheless, the book became a basic international reference work.

In 1939, ALCOA-funded scientist Gerald J. Cox was one of the first to note that "The present trend toward complete removal of fluoride from water and food may need some reversal." Cox also proposed that this "apparently worthless by-product" might reduce cavities in children. Cox fluoridated lab rats, concluded that fluoride reduced cavities and declared flatly: "The case should be regarded as proved."

In 1939, the first public proposal that the US should fluoridate its water supplies was made, not by a doctor, or dentist, but by Cox, an industry scientist working for a company threatened by fluoride damage claims.

<snip>

The name of the company with the biggest stake in fluoride's safety was ALCOA - whose name is stamped all over the early history of water fluoridation.

By 1938, the aluminum industry (which then consisted solely of ALCOA) was placed on a wartime schedule. During World War II, industry's fluoride pollution increased sharply because of stepped-up production of ALCOA aluminum for fighters and bombers. And fluoride was the aluminum industry's most devastating pollutant.

<snip>

In 1947, Oscar R. Ewing, a long-time ALCOA lawyer, was appointed head of the Federal Security Agency, a position that placed him in charge of the Public Health Service. Under Ewing, a national water fluoridation campaign rapidly materialized, spearheaded by the PHS. Over the next three years, 87 additional cities were fluoridated. The two-city Michigan experiment (the only scientifically objective test of fluoridation's safety and benefits) was abandoned before it was half over.

http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/000062.htm

[bloom]

88. I suppose that Europeans

must be a more cautious sort.

After all - many of the countries have banned amalgams - they've gotten the neurotoxins and cancer-causing ingredients out of their cosmetics (the US doesn't worry about it - except some may want to sell to Europeans - so they'll have to change the formula), they are against genetically modified foods... they actually seem to have some regulation on some of the industries - unlike the US.

The FDA, EPA, etc. has only given me reason to NOT trust them.

So it makes sense to look at what people are concerned about in Europe. We won't find out about it here.



Article of the day (from last year):

The Junk Science of George W. Bush

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040308&c=1&s=kennedy

[chlamor]

90. Industry funded scientists

are all the rage in Biotech of course and this too is roundly rejected in Europe. The public in EU have seen the studies and have a healthy distrust of their corporate/gov't. It is amazing to read through this thread and see comments that parrot the words put forth by the PR meisters in the 40's and 50's when the fluoride push was on. Here is a bit from award winning journalist:

As early as 1850, fluoride emissions from the iron and copper industries poisoned crops, livestock, and people. By the turn of the century, lawsuits and burdensome regulations threatened the existence of these industries in Germany and England.

In 1933, when the world's first major air pollution disaster struck Belgium's Meuse Valley. Several thousand people became violently ill and 60 died. Kaj Roholm, the world's leading authority on fluoride hazards, placed the blame on fluoride.

It was abundantly clear to both industry and government that US industrial expansion would necessitate releasing millions of tons of waste fluoride into the environment. It was equally clear that US industrial expansion would be accompanied by complaints and lawsuits over fluoride damage on an unprecedented scale.

<snip>

Liability Into Asset

During the industrial explosion of the 1920s, the US Public Health Service (PHS) was under the jurisdiction of Treasury Secretary Andrew W. Mellon, a founder and major stockholder of the Aluminum Company of America (Alcoa). In 1931, a PHS dentist named H. Trendley Dean was dispatched to remote towns in the West where drinking-water wells contained high concentrations of natural fluoride. His mission: to determine how much fluoride people could tolerate without sustaining obvious damage to their teeth. Dean found that teeth in these high-fluoride towns were often discolored and eroded, but he also reported that they appeared to have fewer cavities than average.

The University of Cincinnati's Kettering Laboratory, funded largely by top fluoride-emitters such as Alcoa, quickly dominated fluoride safety research. A book by Kettering scientist (and Reynolds Metals consultant) E. J. Largent, was admittedly written in part to "aid industry in lawsuits arising from fluoride damage." Nonetheless, the book became a basic international reference work.

In 1939, ALCOA-funded scientist Gerald J. Cox was one of the first to note that "The present trend toward complete removal of fluoride from water and food may need some reversal." Cox also proposed that this "apparently worthless by-product" might reduce cavities in children. Cox fluoridated lab rats, concluded that fluoride reduced cavities and declared flatly: "The case should be regarded as proved."

In 1939, the first public proposal that the US should fluoridate its water supplies was made, not by a doctor, or dentist, but by Cox, an industry scientist working for a company threatened by fluoride damage claims.

http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/000062.htm

[bloom]

94. I think the problem

of fluoride - as well as many other toxins in the air/environment/food supply - is that we don't know how much we're getting and there is no way to tell for each individual at what point they have gone over the limit of what their body can tolerate - plus the fact that our gov't is paying NO attention and not regulating...

I think people ignore all of this at their own and humanities peril. People can have a fun time joking about it and that is certainly one approach. It is interesting to have the various European countries as an alternative model of possible reactions.

[chlamor]

95. Trying to limit

the amount of toxins we get is the way for me, though I'm no purist. I take my food and water seriously and am fortunate to live in a place where I can know most of what goes into my food and wine etc. through first hand observation. I know alot of people don't have that possibility but alot of people won't take the time to find out what is going into their body.

Fresh whole foods and ale taste way better anyways. This has been a weird thread with some of the stopthink comments.

[lonestarnot]

46. Are you trying to ban water now? WTF...

[chlamor]

50. As posted above

not a single, not even a feeble, attempt to discuss issue or present any relevant info. I know the exact Cargill plant where 90% of the "fluoride" that is dispensed into your water originates. Just attacks and the exact same messages that have been planted in peoples heads by the PR firms.

Not even a speck of info coming from you folks.

[Throckmorton]

53. who wants to live forever?

we already have a surplus population.

[chlamor]

54. So let the poisons fly

:wtf:

[Throckmorton]

60. Thats OK, I'm sure the Mercury from my whooping cough vaccine

will kill me long before I get "Shot on Sight" by a nuclear plant guard.

[donco6]

63. That's because your info has been so incredibly,

thoroughly debunked about five hundred times on this board. There's just no point in rehashing it all. If you really want to believe one chemist from the NIH who died 20 years ago, go for it.

[chlamor]

77. Fluoridation is unnecessary

Fluoridation is UNNECESSARY because:

1) Children can have perfectly good teeth without being exposed to fluoride.
2) The promoters (CDC, 1999, 2001) admit that the benefits are topical not systemic, so fluoridated toothpaste, which is universally available, is a more rational approach to delivering fluoride to the target organ (teeth) while minimizing exposure to the rest of the body.
3) The vast majority of western Europe has rejected water fluoridation, but has been equally successful as the US, if not more so, in tackling tooth decay.
4) If fluoride was necessary for strong teeth one would expect to find it in breast milk, but the level there is 0.01 ppm , which is 100 times LESS than in fluoridated tap water (IOM, 1997).
5) Children in non-fluoridated communities are already getting the so-called "optimal" doses from other sources (Heller et al, 1997). In fact, many are already being over-exposed to fluoride.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

[WoodrowFan]

64. we are not discussing it

for the same reasons we don't seriously discuss whether the world is flat or whether the world floats on the back of a giant turtle. :eyes:

[chlamor]

76. Only Americans Swallow the Water Fluoridation Lie

Water fluoridation is a peculiarly American phenomenon. It started at a time when Asbestos lined our pipes, lead was added to gasoline, PCBs filled our transformers and DDT was deemed so "safe and effective" that officials felt no qualms spraying kids in school classrooms and seated at picnic tables. One by one all these chemicals have been banned, but fluoridation remains untouched.

For over 50 years US government officials have confidently and enthusiastically claimed that fluoridation is "safe and effective". However, they are seldom prepared to defend the practice in open public debate. Actually, there are so many arguments against fluoridation that it can get overwhelming.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

[GarySeven]

49. Our water is contaminated with dihydrogen oxide!!!

Warn your friends, your family and co-workers! This chemical, commonly used in many manufactured items, is being drunk by your children, your grandparents and even Republicans!

[lonestarnot]

51. Fuck it I'm hav'n a glass tastes pretty good to me.

[GarySeven]

52. Tomorrow they shall find a pod under your bed ...

... and you will be seen handing out "Fair Play for Exxon" handbills in New Orleans.

[chlamor]

55. As long as they get

the fluoride out of my water the pods can stay.



" If we are not careful, we will end up where we are headed."
                                                              Lakota Proverb

[Cuban_Liberal]

58. Oh, criminy!

Not again?

:eyes:

[theboss]

65. Frank Burns!?!?! Is that you?!?!?!

We haven't had these arguments since the 50s.

Who wants to watch Uncle Miltie?

[Charon]

66. Fluoridation

Guess the right wingers and fundies were right in the late fifties and early sixties, Fluoide in drinking water was really a Commie plot.

[chlamor]

68. Not a Commie Plot

a Cargill plot. Dump scrubber scrapings into water supply save hundreds of thousands of dollars tell people ,through massive PR campaign, it is good for them and watch the public swallow it hook line and sinker. Years later, like today, folks (Only the American) will still believe it unquestioningly and wonder why their is still the silly talk about it. Won't actually look at the facts will just used tired old marginalization slogans and techniques that the PR firms planted in their brains.

[Donailin]

89. Some people can't be convinced that their government or corps.

would do anything to harm them. I was one of them. My friend would go on endlessly about flouride in the water and I blew him off for years until I decided to look it up -- to prove him wrong. He's right. There are two kinds of flouride, if i recall. One is a natural occurance and the other is the waste product of manufactured chemicals. One is safe, the other is not. But really, one only needs to look at it as another industry trying to profit. Once you take the blinders off, one can be more objective.

Bottom line however: we're all gonna die. If it isn't the water, it would be the air, food, terrorists, bird flu, or WW3 or 4, whatever we're up to now. Can't get excited about the water anymore, although I wish that was my only complaint.

[radwriter0555]

72. Flouride causes cancer. YOU drink it, because I'm not going to. I won't

even let my daughter get flouride treatments at the dentist; I make her spit that crap out.

It's a needless, pointless chemical that does no good for anyone or anything.

You simply cannot tell me that the gubment is doing what's best for us anymore. Lies are merely their stock in trade.

[K-W]

97. Your dentist isnt the government, blowing your theory clean away. EOM

[chlamor]

100. Dentists and Doctors

will rarely go against the industry channels which are set by large chemical cos. in many instances-this is one of those instances.


From -The Fluoride Deception

Mullenix recalls the response of a Forsyth administrator to her findings: "You are going against what the dentists and everybody have been publishing for 50 years, that this is safe and effective. You must be wrong. ... You are jeopardizing the entire support of this entire institution. If you publish these studies, NIDR is not going to fund any more research at Forsyth." Her studies were published in Neurotoxicology & Teratology. But within days after the paper's acceptance, her contract with Forsyth was not renewed.

http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/000062.htm

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

[XemaSab]

83. We've got uranium in the water here

I think getting rid of that crap's the first step.

[Maru Kitteh]

87. They just found uranium in the water in a town 16 miles from here in NE

We have two whole house filters and one under the sink here because we hate chlorine and the mineral deposits are just crazy. Now I'm going to be checking into the metal content also but for the record, I could care less about flouride. I put it on the list with "chemtrails". :tinfoilhat:

[chlamor]

91. Hope you'll

read the thread and see this for what it is-poison.

Cargill saves about $600,000/yr with this "conspiracy theory".

In his 1928 book, Propaganda, Bernays expounded on "the mechanism" that controls the public mind. "Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society," Bernays wrote, "constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.... ur minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of...."

Almost overnight, under Bernays' mass mind-molding, the popular image of fluoride - which at the time was being widely sold as rat and bug poison - became that of a beneficial provider of gleaming smiles, absolutely safe, and good for children,

The prospect of the government mass-medicating the water supplies with a well-known rat poison to prevent a non-lethal disease flipped the switches of skeptics across the country. But, under Bernays' spell, fluoride's opponents were permanently engraved on the public mind as crackpots and right-wing loonies.

In 1950 the PHS officially endorsed fluoridation. Since then, two-thirds of the nation's reservoirs have been fluoridated and about 143,000 tons of fluoride are pumped in yearly to keep them that way.

Today, companies forced to reduce their fluoride emission can even recoup some of the expense by selling the waste to cities for water fluoridation.

http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/000062.htm

Here is more:

Fluoridation is UNSAFE because:

1) It accumulates in our bones and makes them more brittle and prone to fracture. The weight of evidence from animal studies, clinical studies and epidemiological studies on this is overwhelming. Lifetime exposure to fluoride will contribute to higher rates of hip fracture in the elderly.
2) It accumulates in our pineal gland, possibly lowering the production of melatonin a very important regulatory hormone (Luke, 1997, 2001).
3) It damages the enamel (dental fluorosis) of a high percentage of children. Between 30 and 50% of children have dental fluorosis on at least two teeth in optimally fluoridated communities (Heller et al, 1997 and McDonagh et al, 2000).
4) There are serious, but yet unproven, concerns about a connection between fluoridation and osteosarcoma in young men (Cohn, 1992), as well as fluoridation and the current epidemics of both arthritis and hypothyroidism.
5) In animal studies fluoride at 1 ppm in drinking water increases the uptake of aluminum into the brain (Varner et al, 1998).
6) Counties with 3 ppm or more of fluoride in their water have lower fertility rates (Freni, 1994).
7) In human studies the fluoridating agents most commonly used in the US not only increase the uptake of lead into children's blood (Masters and Coplan, 1999, 2000) but are also associated with an increase in violent behavior.
8) The margin of safety between the so-called therapeutic benefit of reducing dental decay and many of these end points is either nonexistent or precariously low.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

[Donailin]

86. It's a nice little scam, actually

rather than pay to dump the toxic waste, the municipalities pay for it and make the water "flouridated" -- and yet all that flouride has never changed the fact that no matter what you do, if you have bad Irish teeth, flouride won't save ya.

I try to stay away from tap, but it's hard to eliminate it all together. I can't afford to buy bottle water to boil all the pasta I make. And then there's the matter of eating and drinking out.

[zyzxx]

106. All I know is...

in my Organic Chemistry class in college that Fluorine was one of the most dangerous, toxic, and unstable of all elements, so I don't see how ingesting it in ANY dosage could possibly be good for you.