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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:51 AM
Original message
"Is America just a front for the CIA?"
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 02:09 AM by Clark2008
Chevy Chase, Saturday Night Live, 1976...

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. in the 1970s, the world feared the CIA
Now they seem to be nothing but incompetent.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Unless
The CIA is just a front for something else, having now outlived its purpose it has been deconstructed and rebuilt into Homeland Security under which FEMA is housed. Ta Da. I love late night speculation.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The CIA hasn't outlived its purpose
They need to be keeping track of terrorist plots being hatched around the globe. Only they lack the skills to do it.
And they should be able to have some idea about who has nukes and WMD and who doesn't. One report after another demonstrates that they are riddled with serious problems that compromise our national security.

Homeland security is a joke.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. The CIA/FBI are no different than
any of business. They are people with their own agenda, own insecurities and are on their own power grab. When there are problems they get more money! I still find it amazing that not one person will ever get demoted/fired for 9-11 and Americans accept this Bushit
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Well, if they were keeping track...
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 02:45 AM by lala_rawraw
Then perhaps we would know who attacked us on 9/11. However, given the level of indifference by the entire administration or the lack of concern with regard to national security, I am pretty confident that if not the CIA (analysts) then someone, somewhere, in this administration knows just where everyone is. Don't you find it odd at just how relaxed this administration is about 9/11 or funding national security? The only thing I have seen is the systematic dismemberment of civil rights. Seems to me they are far too relaxed and not too concerned about Osama. In fact, the accurate timing of each Osama video reminds me of that movie Simone, with Al Pacino.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. the problem here
is that you imagine all all powerful, omniscient state. No state has ever had the kind of reach that theories like yours assume. The idea that the CIA knows where everyone in the world is at any given time is patently absurd. The CIA, like all government agencies, is a bureaucracy staffed by human beings with marginal levels of competence.

We know who attacked us on 9/11. Osama has confessed his involvement in numerous video and audio tapes released to the press.

The terrorism threat is like the Cold War. It provides an overriding ideology used to justify nearly everything the government does. That the government uses the threat for its own nefarious purposes, however, does not mean that no threat exists.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. I assume little with regard to 9/11, but thanks
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 12:07 PM by lala_rawraw
I do believe you are in fact confused and very much so. I suggest you do some serious research into this. Your comments while accurate with regard to government exploitation of the event, are almost silly as far as the rest is concerned.

If and when I actually assume, I preface my comments with "this is just speculation on my part." So no, I am assuming nothing. I am relying on absolute fact available to anyone who did some reading beyond the official version of events. What that evidence shows is that even if Osama did attack us, he did so as a proxy. Trying explaining to me why the government was playing war games on the same day of the attack, in which the simulation of hijacked aircraft was involved? That is just one obvious question (and answer in itself) that you might want to consider. Yes, no state is that powerful, but groups of people are in fact that powerful. Your naivety on this is either sad or purely in need of education. Again, I suggest you do some serious reading on the subject as there is plenty of information that will never fall in line with the sanctioned version.

Oh, by the way, I happen to be a 9/11 "person" and 9/11 victims had to push, beg, plead with this administration to even investigate the attack. Sound like a concerned leadership to you?
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. insults do not substitute for evidence
And what you have provided above is simply speculation. I suggest if you have evidence to show George Bush was the mastermind of this event, you produce it. I have read many charges of such involvement, but I have seen nothing that approaches evidence. And what you produce above are questions, important questions but not answers.

What does the war games exercises on 9/11 tell you? The military has said they were carrying out training exercises. You evidently disbelieve them. To what nefarious purpose do you attribute this?


I certainly agree that the Bush administration has avoided at every opportunity efforts to undertake a thorough investigation of the event. I think it likely they have done so in order to avoid the spotlight on their manifest incompetence. You prefer to interpret that as evidence that Bush himself planned the whole thing. A number of Americans find comfort in that interpretation. It's easier to think of one demonic person in charge of all bad things that happen rather than accept the level of danger and uncontrollability that is manifest in world events. Islamic terrorists hate us for reasons far more deep-seeded than George Bush. For decades, the US has carried out a foreign policy that treats the rest of the world with contempt. On 9/11 we reaped the consequences of that policy, as Americans had during the first WTC attack, the Cole, and Kobart towers--events that all took place before Bush was president. And Americans will continue to face terrorists attacks long after he leaves office.


I was have thought it was beyond obvious that Osama did not carry out the attack personally, if that is what you mean by "proxy." If you mean to say he did so at the bidding of George Bush or George Tenet, I see no reason to believe that unless presented with evidence that establishes that fact. And just because someone writes something on an internet site does not make it so, even if it fits with a way of looking at the world that makes you feel more comfortable. I'm afraid that the horrible loss you and your family experienced on 9/11 is likely to be suffered by other Americans in the future, long after Bush has left office, under presidencies both Democratic and Republican. Both political parties have presided over destructive foreign policies, and unlike DUers, terrorists don't distinguish between red and blue.



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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I did not mention Bush, um... did you actually read my comment?
Pardon me, but I have yet to use Bush or any other name with regard to this conversation. Your own speculating into my statements and demand for proof indicate that the evidence you request is that a). i first state that Bush was responsible and b). prove it.

Thanks for letting me know that the military admitted to conducting those war games. How convenient. I am a bit confused as to what part of my question with regard to those war games seemed confusing to you? I did not ask if they had admitted to it, which they did only when faced with evidence, but why they just "happened" to be conducting those war games? If they say we went into Iraq because of WMD, then that is the end of the conversation because they admitted to going in?

The type of evidence you want is for someone to stand up and say "okay, i did it" because the amount of information already out or the fact that over half of New Yorkers think it was not 'as told' or the fact that Spitzer is re-opening the case is apparently not enough. How much evidence do you need and what kind? Just curious. If you want me to actually tell you out right what I believe, that I cannot do, given obvious reasons. I can, however, ask you to look into the plethora of information out there and come to your own conclusion and frankly, the information out there does not fit with the official sanctioned version of events.

That said, where is Osama and why does no one care? And I am in awe of your staggering suggestion that any of my comments are based on "red" or "blue" or that DUers lose all ability to think, to reason because they are "blue" as opposed to "red." The blue/red holograph is generated by this administration, which is neither blue or red or even red, white, or blue. This has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats and until you start from that foundation of thought you will not be able to go further into asking the honest questions about everything surrounding 9/11.

Oh, and in case New Yorkers, because they are blue are therefor not rational and therefor have a misguided notion of 9/11, then consider world opinion, which is neither red or blue.

I think debate is healthy. I think useless conversations with someone using the "tell me and prove to me" strategy knowing full well that it is not possible to do so is clearly not interested in a debate. Whatever you interest is in, 9/11 reality is not part of it. And the person below this comment needs to re-read my post as well.

This really irks me that you could possibly drag partisan outlook into a discussion of 9/11. Really irks me!!

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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. Which of the following entities confessed to 9/11?


Surely you do not suggest that they are the same person.
thanks.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Thanks, yodermon.
Edited on Mon Apr-11-05 04:04 PM by bvar22
I was about to post this same comment.

The only "evidence" produced was a questionable videotape of a person that the government "claims" is Osama making an indirect reference to 911.

The bush* administration promised to produce irrefutable proof that Osama was behind 911, but in fact, never produced anything beyond that particular video.

Osama may or may not have been behind 911, but the American public has accepted the administrations story on blind faith and an unquestioning Media, not evidence.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. As an American, I fear the CIA
Probably more so than any counter-intellegence unit...
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Not the CIA, but the "plans" department...
There are two CIA's as far as I can tell, the rank and file who actually care about this country and risk their lives for it as well as the analysts/pencil pushers.

Then there is the "other" CIA and whatever name it uses, be it "plans" or what not. If I recall correctly, Bolton was head of the Department of Special Plans at some point. I may be wrong. Too tired to check, but I am almost positive.

I think you have frightened rank and file and frightened FBI rank and file.
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tofubo Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
29. read some history
Edited on Mon Apr-11-05 04:12 AM by tofubo
(wikipedia.org)

i was looking up the history of the cia (and oss), yale and s&b abound
also looking up the former secretaries of war (and atty gen's) from the beginning of the country

if you thought the bush family was bad, did you ever look into the tafts ??

alfonso co-founded the skull and bones and:
Taft's family has been involved in United States Republican politics for over a century. His great-great-grandfather Alphonso Taft was Secretary of War, Attorney General, and an ambassador; his great-grandfather William Howard Taft was President of the United States and Chief Justice of the United States; and his grandfather (Robert Alphonso Taft I) and his father (Robert Taft Jr.) were both U.S. Senators. His first cousin, William Howard Taft IV was a high official in the U.S. government. His uncle, William Howard Taft III was an ambassador. His great-grand-uncle Charles Phelps Taft was a U.S. representative from Ohio and for a time, an owner of the Chicago Cubs baseball team. His great-great-great-grandfather, Peter Rawson Taft, was a member of the Vermont legislature. Other prominent relatives include Seth Chase Taft, Charles Phelps Taft II, Peter Rawson Taft II, Henry Waters Taft, Walbridge S. Taft, and Horace Dutton Taft. Kingsley A. Taft was a U.S. Senator from Ohio and Chief Justice of the Ohio Supreme Court.


and the fucking kicker:
Bob Taft is also related to current president George W. Bush through at least three different marriages, ranging from 8th-cousin-once-removed to 11th-cousin-once-removed, as well as being a 9th cousin of Vice President Dick Cheney.


just look at the shit going on today, the far right attacking america is coming from groups from: texas (of course), florida (bush), arkansas (walton), and cincinnati (farmer/cintas, brisben, dewitt, reynolds), the taft family are also longtime cincinnati residents

list of tafts in the skull & bones @ yale:
Alphonso Taft 1833
Peter Rawson Taft 1867
William Howard Taft 1878
Henry Waters Taft 1880
Horace Dutton Taft 1883
Hulbert Taft 1900
Robert Alphonso Taft I 1910
Robert Alphonso Taft Jr.1939 (not a bonesman ??, but did go to yale and harvard)
Robert Alphonso Taft II 1963 (not a bonesman ??, but did go to yale)
Charles Phelps Taft 1918
Thomas Prindle Taft 1971

list of bush/walkers in the skull & bones @ yale:
Prescott Sheldon Bush 1917
James S. Bush 1922
George Herbert Walker Bush 1948
Jonathan J. Bush 1953
Derek C. Bush 1967
George Walker Bush 1968
Francis Amasa Walker
Joseph Burbeen Walker 1844
Samuel Johnson Walker 1888
Horace Flecher Walker 1889
Charles Rumford Walker 1916
George Nesmith Walker 1919
George Herbert Walker Jr. 1927
Stoughton Walker 1928
John Mercer Walker 1931
Louis Walker 1936
John S. Walker 1942
Jeffrey Pond Walker 1944
Samuel Sloan Walker Jr. 1948
George Herbert Walker III 1953
Ray Carter Walker 1955
(don't know if all on list are interrelated, but hey, this is the internet and swiftboat rulez apply, right ??)

(and cheney went to yale also, but dropped out on account of difficulty with his studies and returned to only to leave again the following semester partly due to poor grades)

the shit just doesn't pass the smell test
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. I don't think anyone thought it was a partisan group n/t
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. incompetent? if you believe the RW spin
Various secret agencies had warned about a large terrorist attack - they were ignored by the Bush admin. They've been saying Saddam had no WMD's - again they were ignored.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Incompetence was everywhere
If you read the newspapers and the endless accounts of problems in the intelligence agencies, there is no question that the CIA was badly informed. The entire WMD argument rested on one individual who had been discredited. This was the case even before Bush took office. There, however, was plenty of incompetence to go around. It neither started nor ended with the CIA.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Got a source for a pre-Bush WMD argument?
Of course there were the neocons pushing the idea that Saddam was so dangerous that he had to be taken out. But even during the Bush admin, though pre-911, we had Powell and Rice stating Saddam had no WMDs. I don't think they made that claim in defiance of what intelligence agencies were saying about Saddam's WMDs.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. the intelligence report released at the end of March
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0C15FC395B0C7A8EDDAA0894DD404482&incamp=archive:search

It's old enough to now be archived by the Times. Remember that Clinton has publicly stated on a number of occasions that he believed Saddam to be a serious threat. He received intelligence similar to that given to Bush, but he had the sense not to go to war over it.

Various congressional committees have made similar findings.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. that's post-Bush election, post-911
even though it refers to pre-911 times.

I distinctly remember there being rather extensive discussion pre-911 of a report by intelligence agencies about there being a pretty serious terrorist threat.
Yet the Bush gang claimed the attack was a total surprise.

I also recall the UN/US sanctions on Iraq which eliminated virtually all military power Saddam ever had. It's not for nothing the UN was reluctant to go back to again search for WMDs - which weren't found, as was to be expected.

I also know this administration has a vested interest in blaming anyone else but themselves for not finding WMDs in Iraq.
I know there was unusual pressure from the administration (Cheney specifically) on the CIA to find evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Not to mention the role of Rumsfeld's very own intelligence agency the Office of Special Plans aka the Bureau of Special Plans.

These are the same people who, back in the days, managed to convince policy makers that the fact they could not detect Russian submarines was evidence of the Russians having some sort of fancy submarine cloaking technology - that was pretty much what started the cold war.

And now they're trying to rewrite history so they can put the blame on an intelligence agency that is know not to be fully cooperative with the neocons.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. these points are not mutually exclusive
All of what you say above is true, as is the fact that the intelligence agencies--including European--had bad information on Saddam's weapons capabilities. It's not an either or possibility. There were a whole series of warnings overlooked by the Bush administration. They did not make terrorism a priority before 9/11. They naturally blame everyone for themselves, since they assume responsibility for nothing. But the CIA has serious problems in terms of information gathering in the Arab world, not least of which is few agents with Arabic abilities.

The report released at the end of March also criticizes CIA information on Iraq both before and after the Bush administration took office. The CIA stepped up it's level of alarmist rhetoric about Saddam in the lead up to the war, but they were working on the same reports they had been using since the Clinton administration.
You can probably find a copy of the recent report on some US government website. The PBS NewsHour covered it, as did all of the major newspapers.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. The agencies didn't have bad information, info was cherry picked
and exaggerated by those who wanted this war since long before 911 took place.

Ie it was Blair who supposedly made the "mistake" of thinking the 15 minutes thing applied to WMDs instead of conventional weapons as the report stated (the BBC was right all along in its assertion that Blair "sexed up" the report). Rumsfeld managed to spin that into "Saddam is 15 minutes away from having a nuclear weapon".
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. the fact is they had virtually no information
Their sources of intelligence in the Arab world were and are slim. The Bush administration picked and hyped what suited them. And the CIA had very little that was useful to offer. These two scenarios are not mutually exclusive. In fact, reports from various investigative agencies, including the presidential commission's report released last week, demonstrate that to be the case.
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. "no question"
- if you read the newspapers. However, if you had read the newspapers a little more carefully, you would have noted that several "sources" in the CIA have contested that they believed the reports on Iraqi WMD are correct. The CIA didn't rely on Curveball - the DIA did, which is a part of the Pentagon. And they did so despite the fact that German BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst), who held Curveball, warned them that he was a liar. The DIA didn't get to talk to him either - he told the Germans that he hated Americans and wouldn't talk to any. He was, by the way, the cousin of an aide to Ahmed Chalabi, the convicted fraudster, Iranian double-agent and neo-con favourite. I don't believe for a second that the people in the DIA actually believed the "intelligence" coming from him. The "incompetence" line of explanation is the Bush regime's strategy of shifting the blame to the intelligence community, and in particular the CIA which has already been "purged" of disloyal analysts who disliked the admin's politicization of intelligence. It is not awfully credible. George Tenet received a phonecall the night before he was going to the UN SC and assist in Powell's presentation of the Iraqi WMD "evidence". The phonecall was from a CIA analyst who warned him that the intelligence was bogus. Tenet didn't want to listen. Of course he didn't, he already knew it was bogus. So did Powell.

I agree that the American intelligence agencies aren't all-powerful. I don't think they're a monolith either. I do believe, however, that they, on some level, know where Osama is hanging out. After all, they only have to ask their friends in the Pakistani ISI, which is closely aligned with the Taliban as well as with the so-called al-Qaeda. Or, perhaps, ask Osama himself. According to French intelligence, and as reported in the highly credible Le Figaro in late 2001, the CIA station chief in Dubai met with Osama Bin Ladin in the summer of 2001, when Bin Ladin was hospitalized there. According to former chief of foreign intelligence in the KGB, Leonid Shebarshin, who was station chief in Tehran and stationed in Karachi in the 70s and 80s, Bin Ladin enjoys a continued relationship with the CIA.

You must have access to information I have not, because to me it is not so obvious that Bin Ladin played a central role in the attacks of 9/11. The FBI appears to concur. FBI director Mueller admitted, in 2002, that they didn't have any hard evidence of his involvement (remember right after the attacks, when Bush and Blair claimed to have so much evidence that they would later release? Well, they never did). What's more, French TV/newspaper journalist Eric Laurent, one of France's most respected, got to see the FBI's file on Osama last year and found that they had nothing on him concerning 9/11.

On the morning of sept 11, 2001, as the planes slammed into the first tower, Porter Goss and Bob Graham of the joint intelligence committee were having breakfast with ISI chief Mahmud Ahmed. He had been in Washington for a week and, according to a Pakistani newspaper, met with Tenet, the National Security Council, Pentagon officials etc. Amazingly, Ahmed arrived in Washington only three days after Goss and Graham returned from a trip to Pakistan to see him.

What is particularily interesting about all this hectic meeting activity is that in october of 2001, The Times of India and Agence France Press reported that, according to Indian intelligence, ISI chief Ahmed was the man who ordered $100,000 to be wired to lead hijacker Mohammed Atta before the attack. They had apparently been listening in on his cell phone calls, among other things, and they gave the FBI what they had on him. Sources in the FBI apparently confirmed this. So what was the alleged 9/11 moneymaster doing in Washington, meeting with Tenet et al? What were they discussing? By the way, the allegations against him were reported by one newspaper in the US - the Wall Street Journal. It would appear that reading American newspapers will not keep you up to date on every aspect of the shady world of intelligence agencies. Neither will you find Ahmed mentioned as moneymaster in the Kean Comission report.

The point would be that things happen behind the scenes, that the Washington Post is not going to report on.

BTW, an excellent book on international terrorism is former IMF economist Loretta Napoleoni's "Terror Inc". It's the best researched book out there on the subject.

----------------
We live in a dirty and dangerous world. There are some things the general public does not need to know about and shouldn't. I believe democracy flourishes when the government can take legitimate steps to keep its secrets and when the press can decide whether to print what it knows.
—- Katharine Graham, Washington Post owner, speaking at CIA's Langley, Virginia headquarters in 1988, as reported in Regardie's Magazine, January, 1990. Quoted from David McGowan, Derailing Democracy, (Common Courage Press, 2000), p.109

I'm dealing with a world in which we have gotten struck by terrorists with airplanes, and we get intelligence saying that there is, you know, we want to harm America.
-- George W Bush, on NBC's "Meet the Press", Feb. 8, 2004
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. It is possible for both things to be true
Yes, I did read the papers and I know there were some in the CIA who doubted the WMD argument. I also know that the reports given to the presidents, both Clinton and Bush, insisted Saddam had them. It is possible, and evidently true based on what I've read, that Bush hyped the evidence, interpreted it in ways that suited their goal of war, and that the CIA also made serious errors. It's not an either or proposition.

You're privy to the same information I am about Osama: the various recordings he has released to the public show him expressing his pride over the outcome of the attacks.

I will assume you know enough about Pakistan to realize it's intelligence agencies and the state in general do not control the entire country. Among the Pakistani government are a number of officials far more sympathetic to Al Quaeda than to the US and Mussharef. That the US has relations with Pakistan certainly does not mean they automatically know where he is. It is also possible that he is still in Afghanistan, Iran, or somewhere else entirely.

The information passed to the FBI you mentioned above was not all that was overlooked. You no doubt know there was much more, widely reported in the US press. And what does that prove other than incompetence? Is your point that George Bush himself was responsible for 9/11? You dispute sworn testimony before congress and the 9/11 commission, as well as US press reports, but decide something you read in Le Figaro (provided you can even read Italian) is more reliable? And even if the Pakistani intelligence minister was involved in financing the plot, you assume that means Tenet was behind it as well? Do you have any memory of the state of US-Pakistani relations before 9/11?

I suppose it's easier to think of the world as entirely at the hands of one central government. Bin Laden is on the CIA payroll (when there in fact is no evidence he has ever been. He funded the the Mujahideen and the Taliban. The CIA did not fund him). All the president of the US needs to do is snap his fingers and the world comes tumbling down. I imagine some find a certain comfort in the idea of a state which controls everyone and everything. It's like a child who thinks his father can do everything, good and bad, that nothing is beyond his grasp. The fact is, the world is a far more chaotic and uncontrollable place. Islamic fundamentalism emerged out of the ashes of the Iron Curtain. You may feel safer believing George Bush is behind all the hatred toward Americans. While there is no question he has made matters much worse through the war on Iraq, they have hated us for far longer. Bush, after all, was not in power during the first WTC bombing, the Cole, or Kobart towers. They hate you and me and will continue to do so after a Democratic president is elected. Americans will continue to be targets of violence, because the animosity that decades of foreign policy have sewn are deep. They will not go away easily. It is not nearly so simple as some of the DU 9/11 theories like to pretend. George Bush is not the only source of evil and violence in the world.



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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. A few points
that need to be briefly addressed. First of all, Le Figaro is French, not Italian, and yes, I do read French. I read it almost daily, it is one of the most credible newspapers in the world, albeit rather too conservative for my tastes. It is not the type of newspaper that writes unsubstantiated rumours purporting to be true. Online at www.lefigaro.fr

Second, I certainly don't believe Bush was behind 9/11. That would be quite absurd, and I have no idea why you choose to bring up that particular straw man (along with your child and father nonsense). It's really difficult to picture Bush masterminding anything at all. He obviously knew something was coming (remember the aug 6 memo, if nothing else - if nothing else), but exactly how much he knew is what Rumsfeld would call a known unknown. Tenet must have known a whole lot, perhaps a lot more than Bush, perhaps it was all passed on to the purported commander in chief. Who knows, but he did fly to Crawford to review the intelligence with Bush on aug 6 (and we know how much this president values his vacations). But with 15 foreign intelligence agencies warning the US in the months before the attack, providing information about approximately when (the week from sept 10), the targets, and the names of many of the hijackers, some of that information (if not all of it) must have reached Tenet, and through him, one would assume, Bush. Nevertheless, the upper echelons of the FBI continued to block investigations of arabs taking flight lesson, despite the pleas of desperate FBI agents, the CIA did not share its info with the FBI etc. It could all be attributed to incompetence, at least theoretically, but what an incompetence.

No, I don't think much would happen if Bush were to snap his fingers. I don't think he's in charge of much of anything. And I am very well aware of the reality of Islamic terrorism and political Islam. I am of course not implying that it's all a creation of the CIA (though the CIA started infiltrating the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in the 1950s and played a role in the radicalization of the mujahiddeen in Afghanistan in the 80s, to the point of printing Islamist schoolbooks for Pakistani madrasas in the US). I to some extent agree with CIA analyst Michael Schauer, that "we are fighting a worldwide Islamic insurgency -- not criminality or terrorism."

However, a common mistake is to infer that since America is hated around the world, and politically or religiously inspired violence is a very real occurrance (the former much more than the latter, though), then 9/11 must have been perpetrated for the purpose of waging holy war against America, when in fact it could have been perpetrated for a number of reasons, and when in fact we simply do not know conclusively.

You are, for no apparent reason, very certain that Bin Ladin was never funded by the CIA. That may or may not be true, as far as money goes, but he certainly did have a close relationship with them.

His biography usually has him having a religious epiphany at the moment the Soviets roll into Afghanistan, and immidiately heading off to Pakistan to start his holy war with a pack of newly recruited Arab fighters.

Now, we know, thanks to the admissions of Zbigniew Brzezinski and William Colby, that the CIA started to destabilize the Afghan govt six months before the Soviets invaded, to lure the Soviets to do just that. The plan was to give them "their Vietnam", as Brzezinski told Carter. The jihad of the mujahiddeen was obviously an integral part of that plan from the start, the plan being made by Brzezinski and the CIA in conjunction with the ISI and the govt of military dictator Zia ul-Haq (brought to power with the help of the CIA). ul-Haq had a vision of Pakistani hegemony in central Asia, which would require Pakistani dominance in Afghanistan, while the CIA/Brzezinski wanted to bleed Russia. It was a marriage of convenience I guess one could say.

So, the question is, did Bin Ladin get the idea of going to Afghanistan all by himself or did someone propose it to him. I don't know. But it is a fact that he worked with the CIA in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The CIA even sponsored a fund raising and informational trip to the US and Canada for him. Eric Margolis, the Toronto Sun columnist, seasoned war correspondent and ex-Marine, met Bin Ladin when he was in Mississauga, Ontario on one of his CIA-arranged stops ("He was quite charming and very articulate", Margolis said about him in 2002). Margolis, by the way, has some comments here about the Bin Ladin "confession" tape:
http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2001/12/bin_laden_tape.php

Elsewhere, Margolis takes note of an interview with Bin Ladin in a Pakistani newspaper:

"Pakistani paper Uumat published a lengthy interview with him that reveals much about the motivation of America's arch-enemy. (...) Bin Laden denies his al-Qaida organization was responsible for the suicide attacks against the U.S. But he applauds them. He suggests the attacks were made by Americans from either intelligence agencies or "a hidden government.""
(http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1021-10.htm)

We shouldn't take Bin Ladin's word for that, of course, just as we shouldn't take his later purported confession to mean much.

That Bin Ladin has denied, in at least one interview, that he ever had any relation to the CIA is interesting, and in my view quite revealing. He clearly doesn't want that part of his life to be widely known.

I think Bin Ladin has had and possibly still has some kind of mutually beneficial relationship with the CIA or some faction of the US National Security State, but he is clearly not controlled by them. I don't think he is the leader, in any sense but symbolically, of "al-Qaeda" (Robert Fisk, who interviewed him in the nineties, said it struck him how out of touch with the outside world he seemed to be). I'm not entirely convinced about the honesty of his jihad (his motivations seem to change between each interview), although, of course, many, many Muslims are. Many Christians are convinced of the honesty of Bush's born-again Christianity too, after all. It's hard to tell where his loyalties lie but I would guess with factions of the Saudi ruling dynasty. I think he told the truth when he denied his involvement in 9/11.

I find Leonid Shebarshin highly credible, and concur with thw following:
"Osama bin Laden has become No. 1 villain, a priori. It seems that someone has been preparing him for this role for several years. The US has created a myth that this mysterious person is behind all acts of terrorism."

Bob Graham said (paraphrasing) that all the keys to the 9/11 attacks are in Saudi Arabia. Perhaps, but perhaps he's also deflecting attention away from his 9/11 breakfast date, Lt. Gen. Ahmed and Pakistan. In Pakistan, as in America, there are different factions with different aims and interests. But it would be erroneous to see Musharraf as opposed to the "al-Qaeda/Taliban" faction in the Army and the ISI, I think. The coup that brought him to power in 1999 was organized by the ISI and the military, after all, and one major reason for the coup is the ISI felt the previous ruler had to go, "out of fear that he might buckle to American pressure and reverse Pakistan's policy of supporting the Taliban." (New York Times, 12/8/01). Paul Thompson adds ("The Terror Timeline", plus online at http://www.cooperativeresearch.org):

"Shortly thereafter Musharraf replaces the leader of the ISI, Brig Imtiaz, because of his close ties to the previous leader. Imtiaz is arrested and convicted of "having assets disproportionate to his known sources of income." It comes out that he was keeping tens of millions of dollars earned from heroin smuggling in a Deutschebank account. This is interesting because insider trading just prior to 9/11 will later connect to a branch of Deutschebank recently run by "Buzzy" Krongard, now Executive Director of the CIA (see September 6-10, 2001). (Financial Times (Asian edition), 8/10/01) The new Director of the ISI is Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed, a close ally of Musharraf who is instrumental in the success of the coup. (Guardian, 10/9/01) Mahmood will later be fired after suggestions that he helped fund the 9/11 attacks."

The insider trading, by many considered to be the largest in history, consisted, among other things, in put options against the companies that would be directly hit by the 9/11 attacks. It's all extremely conspicuous, especially if you add the otherwise unexplainable rise in oil and gold prices prior to the attack. The SEC investigated the insider trading and found that "it was not connected to terrorists". Then, presumably, it was done by non-terrorists with very precise foreknowledge. This is a blog post on a related subject, the unexplained surge in financial transactions made just before the attack: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/02/oh-places-you-go-when-you-follow-money.html

Graham and Goss's breakfast buddy travelled to Afghanistan with Saudi crown prince Abdullah right after 9/11 to meet Mullah Omar. Asia Times reported, in august 2001, that the same two - Ahmed and Abdullah - made a visit to see the mullah in the summer of 2001, warning him that the US would attack them and urging him to send Bin Ladin to Saudi Arabia. Thompson writes:

"If bin Laden were to be tried in Saudi Arabia, Abdullah would help make sure he is acquitted. Mullah Omar apparently rejects the proposal. The article suggests that Abdullah is secretly a supporter of bin Laden and is trying to protect him from harm (Asia Times, 8/22/01)"

French investigative journalist and well-known intellectual Bernhard-Henri Lévi, in his book "Qui a tué Daniel Pearl?", also emphasizes that the ISI and "al-Qaeda" are closely intertwined, and he believes Daniel Pearl was killed because he was getting too close to that truth. Curiously, the man who was arrested and sentenced to death for his kidnapping was the man who was originally pinpointed by the FBI as the man who wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta (and whom Indian intelligence uncovered Lt. Gen. Ahmed had instructed to do so), Omar Saed Sheikh. He is a well-known ISI asset, a financial wizard (educated at London's LSE), and has also been rumoured to be a CIA double-agent (the latter was reported in at least one US newspaper). Bernhard-Henri Lévi:

"Didn't Musharraf give it away when, in a comment cited in The Washington Post (among others) on 23 February 2002, he dared to declare, 'Perhaps Daniel Pearl was over inquisitive; a mediaperson should be aware of the dangers of getting into dangerous areas; unfortunately, he got over-involved in intelligence games.' "

It is interesting that one of the demands of the people who kidnappet Daniel Pearl was that the US resume its sale of F-16s to Pakistan. What an odd demand for al-Qaeda terrorists to make. Voilá, by the way: the resumed sale of F-16s was announced last month

I agree with Margolis in the following statement, from 2002: "A year after the 9/11 attacks on the United States, we know remarkably little about the attackers, or about who really organized the complex operation that seems well beyond the capabilities of amateur terrorists". I would add that we aren't much wiser in 2005. 9/11 didn't resemble any terrorist action before or since. With the continued absence of evidence, I have become reluctant to believe it was organized and executed by guerrilla fighters trained in Afghan camps (the largest of which were, by the way, run by the ISI, and used to train insurgents to be pawns in their game of regional hegemony), of the kind that fight in Kashmir and Chechnya with RPGs and AKs, who supposedly learned to fly with Cessnas and Microsoft Flight Simulator. It is evident that the same Hani Hanjour who according to his flight school teacher couldn't fly a one-engine Cessna, did not perform the acrobatic and almost impossible manoevers of Flight 77, which hit the Pentagon. And so on.

You make a valid point about US-Pakistani relations pre-9/11. However, you are talking about the political relationship, which became colder when Congress imposed sanctions as a consequence of Pakistan's nuclear programme, halting, among other things, the sale of F-16s. There are other types of relationships, though. One is the relationship between the CIA and the ISI, which, according to Pakistan expert Selig Harrison from the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars, continues to be "close" (his characterization in march 2001, http://www.multiline.com.au/~johnm/taliban.htm)
Other types of relationships are private or commercial, see: http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/030905Stanton/030905stanton.html and
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/021805Stanton/021805stanton.html

I could go on but I have to go. I do have some provisional theories about 9/11, but there's no need to bore others with them as it's nothing but speculation. It will suffice to quote Major General and professor Vladimir Slipchenko, a prominent Russian military analyst:

"Osama bin Laden could not have organized this alone. Entire countries and international organizations, with substantial financial backup, could have been behind the terrorist attacks in the United States on September 11. (...) The unexpected methods and forms of violence in the terrorist attacks are evidence of substantial preparation, something only a general staff is capable of. The attack was arranged and executed in such a manner that virtually all world media all but complimented international terrorism on its successes. (...) I cannot understand the idleness of the NORAD system. Or the inaction of the Pentagon's air defenses. Was it treason?"

I have become convinced, however, that the Newsweek/Kean Commission story is to a large degree fictitious. That's why you sometimes hear, "The 9/11 Commission report reads like good fiction!" - to a large extent, it is good fiction. And, yes, I "dispute sworn testimony before congress and the 9/11 commission". Gee, you think intelligence operatives would ever lie? I could also get into the composition of the Commission, but I don't have the time.

The realization that something was wrong with the "official" narrative didn't come to me until about two years after 9/11 2001, with accumulating evidence. In retrospect, I should have been alerted much sooner by the blatant obstruction of the truth that commenced immidiately. I can assure you that I didn't "find a certain comfort" in it. In fact, I would much prefer that those attacks were perpetrated by religious fanatics waging holy war.

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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. "America's business, is business" Overthrow, corrupt, kill and destroy...
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 02:04 AM by LaPera
The CIA is there only to protect corporate business interest.

And we fund these criminals with our tax dollars.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. NOT exactly....the opium from Afghanistan funds
the wars, the overthrow of governments/leaders and a bunch of other dirty tricks with the $800 BILLION of poppy crops. That's why we needed to get rid of the Taliban.In 2001 the Taliban ban all opium growing and 90% of it was gone overnight....I am proud to say that we are now back to pre-1999 levels since the invasion.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
6. I wonder sometimes if it all isn't a charade
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 02:30 AM by Skip Intro
that some other power, or powers, control things in this nation, maybe in most of / all of the world.

Some other force at work, and I don' t mean God.

I can almost feel some sinister beast behind much of what causes us dismay now and recently.

We're up against that.

Lot of stuff put before us only meant to distract.

Lot of stuff that just doesn't make sense.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. The CIA is the defender of U.S. Capitalism
When the CIA wouldn't provide the Bush Junta with intell that WMDs were definetly in Iraq, a connection of Saddam with Osama, the Bush Junta bypassed the agency and made up their own intell with the OSP.

Tenet went along to a point but when he was determined to discredit Ahmed Chalabi the Bush Junta fired him. Tenet made a deal. The Bush Junta would not prosecute him for lying to Congress under oath and gave him a medal if Tenet would keep his mouth shut about what he knows about the Bush Junta's coruption and War Crimes.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. I know and it is almost without country...
If that makes sense. It is not America driven by any means. There is a sense I have that it is a global agenda and that America is the victim of its own global plan. The shift of politics is moving back to Europe as is the funding. America is seemingly led on purpose to crash and I cannot understand why. Some people say "mishandled" and others say "they are competent and know what they are doing." I am very confused as to purpose, but the people involved are hardly incompetent because incompetence is never this organized in one direction, even if we don't know what that direction is. I remain befuddled.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. The New Right Wing Agenda
The New Right Wing Agenda
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0613-02.htm

"The most important implication of all this is that large segments of the domestic and world population are no longer seen as worth worrying about. On one level, this is just racism and classism. But there’s more than that going on. In the past, capitalism was optimistic and assumed that it would keep expanding, which provided the basis for a “corporate liberalism” that saw everyone in the world as a potential consumer and/or laborer - and therefore having some potential worth. But the new reactionaries see the future as much more of a zero-sum game. Partly, this is an expression of their incredible greed and corruption - their incessant efforts to rip off wealth for themselves and their narrow sets of cronies. In any case, the result is that most of Africa, large swaths of Latin America and Asia, and significant parts of the domestic US population have been simply written off -individuals who may arise from the trodden mass are welcome as junior partners, but there is no concern at all for the general well being of these sectors beyond token PR and the limited need to keep local elites from causing too much anti-American trouble on the world stage.

"The amazing thing is that the right wing fundamentalists have been able to seize power and win a large amount of support - or at least acquiescence -- among the US electorate. The people I talk with point to a number of contextual reasons. First, this country lacks any significant institutionalized alternative.

The Democratic Party is both complicit and fratricidal. The labor movement is the only really powerful potential organized opposition, but they are ideologically scattered, organizationally weak, and under unremitting attack. In addition, the powerful role of money in shaping our electoral outcomes is another key ingredient in the right wings success, as well as in keeping liberal (much less radical) alternatives from gaining influence in the Democratic Party.

The increasing dominance of US media by an incredibly small number of incredibly right wing corporations has a powerful impact. The collapse of the Soviet Union, the lack of any significant “third way,” and the resulting feeling that there is “no viable alternative” has been a very important context for the right wings’ ability to present themselves as inevitable and unstoppable. Finally, the current climate of insecurity, fear, and even paranoia - which the government and media are successfully doing their utmost to deepen and expand - plays an important role in making it hard for opposition to find political space.

<snip>

"Most important, by wrapping themselves in the mantle of religion, the GOP leadership has made themselves a vehicle for the growing religious fundamentalist upsurge - parts of which can accurately be described as a fascist movement. Having god on your side means you are always right, no matter what other people may think or how events may fall out. You simply never have to say you are sorry, and all your failures are the result of evil forces beyond your control. Being on a Crusade, having an absolutist and deeply ideological sense of mission, also underpins the right wing’s willingness to use all the power at their command - legal and extra-legal - to push for a maximal agenda. No matter how thin their electoral margin of victory, once in office, they act without hesitation or compromise. They understand that success creates its own legitimacy and its own tailwind, pulling others along with it.

"The scariest part is that the right wing lunatics feel that they’ll get away with it. Who remembers Afghanistan, or the absence of Iraqi’s supposed weapons of mass destruction? Who seems to care that our economy is collapsing? In the short term, Bush and company win not because of smarter strategies or brilliant tactics, but because they have access to overwhelming resources and power and they can simply outlast everyone and everything else. In fact, they are so incompetent and so blind to the complexities of the real world that they will make huge mistakes. So it is possible (but not inevitable) that the world situation will spin out of control and the small clique now running the country will have to pass the baton to others in 2004 or 2008. But we should not underestimate their willingness to keep imposing their will through direct (or indirect) force -- the racism, lies, manipulation, and violence used to secure the 2000 election are likely to be repeated or exceeded in coming years.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. America's crashing wouldn't mean it'd disappear,
rather it would become a nation were most people by far are poor. It'd become like a 3rd world nation, and looking at current developments there will probably be a very strong despotic rule. Also looking at current developments it will probably have a lot of enemies all over the world. A slave nation at war with the rest of the world - the neocons dream come true: total, perpetual war. It would sure help achieve their goal of significantly reducing the world population (they just don't need that many slaves).
I can't help but thinking Orwell's "1984" is more then just a metaphor, that the warning is much more concrete then one would like to think. What's happening now to me looks to much like the perfect preparation for "we're at war with Eurasia, we've always been at war with Eurasia".
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orpupilofnature57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Right on!!! Shrub would have us look like " Logan's Run" simple minded f-c
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 05:14 AM by orpupilofnature57
Just think if we had known about Pa Pa,s secret decoder life, during the ray-gun years, we wouldn't have a Shrub.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. CIA trains, funds, and protects the 'terrorists'. They are our 'boogie man
from which we need to pe 'protected'.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
32. America has become a front for the BFEE. They use loyalists in the CIA
to counter the good agents who are loyal to the citizens of this country. Of course, the good agents are the ones BushInc is targeting with purges.
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
35. No longer...now America is a front for the PNAC...
The CIA is just a tool now.
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