NO deals with the scum of Hezbollah.

[CollegeDNC]

As a proud 24 year old former Marine I am TOTTALY against the US Govt. and the Bush administration giving ANY concessions ar doing ANY deals hit Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a filth terrorist organization that is responsible for the deaths of over 250 brave Marines is a cowardly truck bombing in Beirut in 1983.

Hezbollah is a evil terrorist group who need to be targeted in the same way we are targeting Al Qaida...RELENTLESSLY AND RUTHLESSLY.

[Vladimir]

1. Bummer

ain't democracy grand?

[Warren Stupidity]

2. How about we just kill all of those filthy muslims? (NT)

[radwriter0555]

25. And all the jews, polish and liberal professors too, "just in case". THEN

we can move on to women with feeding tubes and paraplegics and those with IQs under 80.

[Warren Stupidity]

59. and then left handed people - they are very sinister.

[Pepperbelly]

3. You do not like the organization ...

I understand this.

But I have to ask, why is there a Hezbollah? What is it that the organization cites as its reason for existence? I fear TIPS so I don't really want to google it. :scared:

[Amfortas]

46. what's "TIPS" ?

[Pepperbelly]

48. isn't that the spy crap ...

that the Pentagon has webbed through the internet?

[AZCat]

81. I thought TIPS was the...

"Rat on Your Neighbor and Get a Free TV!" program that was going to be run by that bastard Ashcroft (link).

You're thinking of what used to be called "Carnivore" but has a new name now - I don't remember what it is.

[durutti]

73. Hezbollah Explained

Hezbollah (literally "Part of God") is a Shia Muslim political party and military organization founded to fight Israel during its invasion of Lebanon in 1982. It successfully drove Israel from Lebanon. It is backed by Iran and Syria. It was responsible for suicide bombings of Marine barracks and the American embassy in Lebanon. It bombed a French barracks as well.

There is some dispute over whether it's accurate to describe Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Depending on how you read the evidence, it could be argued that the group does largely limit itself to legitimate military targets.

[ET Awful]

4. Geee, not too well informed are ya?

First, Hezbollah is a huge political party, not simply a "terrorist organization." Second, nobody is targeting Al Qaida relentlessly and ruthlessly, that's why Bin Laden is still free and alive.

[lewiston]

5. I doubt

you'll get much support here, but I agree with you. Semper fi!

[LynnTheDem]

76. Of course most DUers won't support him. Most DUers support FACTS

Not uninformed, ignorant, and incorrect bullshit.

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. I'm much more concerned about the scum in the WH

who sat on their hands while 1000's of people died on 9-11, just so they could have their Pearl Harbor event.

[bigtree]

7. I share in the sorrow and outrage over the killings of the Marines

But in my understanding, there was not a Hezbollah at the time of the killings. The organization was conceived in 1982 as a guerrilla group, started by Lebanese clerics and financed by Iran, to oppose the 1982 Israeli invasion and subsequent occupation of southern Lebanon.

From Wickipedia:

"A multinational force landed in Beirut on August 20, 1982 to oversee the PLO withdrawal from Lebanon and U.S. mediation resulted in the evacuation of Syrian troops and PLO fighters from Beirut.

This period saw the rise of radicalism among the country's different factions, and a number of landmark terrorist attacks against American forces, including the destruction of the United States Embassy by a truck bomb and an even deadlier attack on the U.S. Marines barracks. Concurrently, in 1982 Hezbollah was created by some of the old members of Amal with other religious clerics.

Since the May 2000 Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, Hezbollah has continued fighting the Israeli Defense Forces around the disputed, Israeli-occupied Shebaa Farms area. Although the United Nations regards Shebaa Farms as Syrian territory, Hezbollah considers the area a part of Lebanon. Syrian officals have orally declared that Shebaa Farms are part of Lebanon. The Shebaa farms were taken by Israel from Syria during the 1967 war. Syria was asked to notify the UN that it considered the Shebaa farms to be part of Lebanon but no official statement was ever sent. This has led some specialists to think that Hezbollah’s attempt to recapture the area was a Syrian-backed pretext to keep Israel under military pressure."

[Vladimir]

9. The bombing was in 1983, and Hizb Allah probably were responsible

http://www.answers.com/topic/1983-beirut-barracks-bombing

It is also notable as an ealrier example of a suicide bombing, proving that this is not just a recent phenomenon.

[bigtree]

14. thanks for this

awful time finding independent analysis of events that aren't colored by emotion or alliance.

from the link: Several Shiite militant groups claimed the attacks, and one, the Free Islamic Revolutionary Movement, identified the two suicide bombers as Abu Mazen, 26, and Abu Sijaan, 24.

This is an example of what I am trying to express; that there were/are individuals, sects, and factions that may or may not have direct ties to the 'likely suspects' that some are so quick to denounce. The fact that the perpetrators of the violent acts may have sympathizers, and possibly supporters within these major groups is illustrative of the consequences of ours and Israel's invasion, which was a response to the threat from the PLO. who acted against Israel because of Israel's incursion into Lebanon . . . it just goes on and on. There are numerous examples of killings of combatants, peacekeepers, civilians, politicians, and others. There has been a great deal of blood shed in the name of Lebanese independence and autonomy. All of the violence is something to abhor. I think at this point, little is served by recriminations fueled by long-standing grudges. I would hope that the people of that region can find peace and are one day able to live in harmony, without violence. That will require a great deal of forgiveness and reconciliation on all sides.

[Avalux]

8. What is your point?

Thanks for your service to this country, but your post is nothing more

than flamebait.

[bowens43]

10. Hezbollah has killed fewer inncoent people in the last two years

then the US marines.

[ClintonTyree]

11. And let's not forget, President Reagan..................

refused recommendations from the military to take measures that could have prevented the bombing. He didn't want the United States to look "weak" by installing concrete barriers and such. The rest, as they say, is history.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

63. Reagan is to blame for not preventing it. But Hezbollah...

is a terrorist group and should be treated as such. But let us NOT confuse terrorists with Muslims! This is what the right wing noise machine has been doing. They have been using their right wing hate machine, FOX/CNN, Hate Radio, Country, Right Wing Papers, Wash Times, to demonize Muslims, and that too, cannot be tolerated! There are many muslims(the vast majority) who oppose what the extremists are doing.

[K-W]

66. So is the US government.

And no, it should be treated like Hezbollah in all its details and forms and parts, it should not be generalized into an evil empire because when it chose violence it didnt have the option of wiping out cities with bombs and missiles.

[Bridget Burke]

12. Well, why are you a "former" marine?

Why aren't you out there targetting Al Qaida?

(Where is Osama, anyway?)

[Redstone]

13. Why aren't you blaming the guy who's REALLY at fault...

Ronald Reagan?

He's the one who put the Marines in such a vulnerable position, for no reason.

Redstone

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

16. Haven't studied your history, have you?

The Marines in Beirut had NO clearly defined mission. Ask any of them who where there. Or at least go to the library and read some newspapers from that time.

The only reason that Reagan sent them there was because he thought it would scare the Syrians off.

And a comparison with Pearl Harbor is just plain stupid and not worthy of further rebuttal.

Redstone

[prolesunited]

17. No, apparently some here

feel it necessary to spread revisionist history and try to incite fear and hatred.

I find threads such as these quite instructive. They always give me facts with which to counter RW talking points.

[bigtree]

20. I think it was to keep the PLO from invading Israel

Reagan could well have been manipulated in this action as he was already dottering and absent-minded from early stages of dementia or the alzheimers disease that killed him.

That said, the blame for the killing lies, I think, with the culprits. Responsibility for the safety of those Marines was, however, the responsibility of the Commander-in-Chief who did put those soldiers in harm's way, perhaps unnecessarily, and arguably, without the interests of the Lebanese as his primary concern. At any rate, the move was seen by Arab Nationalists in Lebanon and in Syria as provocation at the behest of Israel, sparking the violent resistance.

[Pepperbelly]

42. The real pisser about it is that ...

those Marines could've stayed aboard the Amphib Task Force at sea off the coast, probably anchored at Kathyra. It was stupid to land them and then leave them unprotected in the barracks.

Fucking insane.

[bigtree]

43. BushI was actually in charge

What a family of idiots.

[Pepperbelly]

45. Wasn't RR prez? nt

[bigtree]

57. reagan was suffering from early stages of dementia

bushI was his vice-prez and former head of the cia

[K-W]

49. Blame isnt a finite substance.

There was a long chain of events leading up to what happened. Blaming the immediate actors soley is idiocy and blaming actors further up the chain only is idiocy.

Then again the entire concept of blame is idiocy. Everyone was to blame. Reagan, the attackers, the marines, Isreal, Syria, etc etc etc.

Under some way of thinking about blame or another, everyone is to blame.

Making a statement that Reagan is to blame for the attacks does not imply that the attackers were not to blame. That is a horrible misunderstanding of blame that pervades our culture and has been used to destroy the left since there was a left.

Reagan's blame and the blame of the attackers are too entirely seperate issues dealing with the many nuances of behavior, blame, guilt, justice, motive, etc.

[bigtree]

62. I'll blame who I want

I think I've been more than fair in my assessment. Fuckin read the post correctly. Everyone played a part in the madness, Israel, the PLO, Reagan, BushI, all of the factions and sects. How about taking some time to read some of the numerous posts I've made on this issue. All you are doing here is isolating one aspect of my post to suit your peeve.

I don't need any lectures on the blame game. Go pick at someone else.

[K-W]

68. Wow, how dare I disagree with you.

You are asking me to go out of my way and read every post you posted to discern your true position? Its a discussion board, I threw my two cents in, it happened to be under your post, it was a reply to many posts on the thread.

But I guess you just like taking things personaly.

[bigtree]

69. you just picked your peeve out of my post

out of context and off of my point. my views are just as broad as yours. BTW I see the same level of 'blame' in your posts on this page, albeit in a different order of importance.

your point is weak.

[K-W]

70. This is a thread on a discussion board, not a PM

You are taking this way too personally and I really dont understand your hostility. For all I know I accidentally replied to your post, i dont remember, chill the fuck out.

And you are completely mistaken as to what I said on my posts and I challenge you to prove your accusations.

Why on earth are you getting so upset about this?

Edit: And it isnt a pet peeve, it is a very legitmate point, one you say you agree with at the same time you are telling me it is weak.

[bigtree]

71. I'm chill

I don't understand why it is so wrong to blame killers for killing, blame those responsible for the safety of our soldiers for mishandling their safety, and cite the impressions of the Arab Nationalists that our involvement there was at the behest of Israel.

The post was not about blame, and I'm no idiot. Don't take that personally though.

[Bridget Burke]

21. The Marines were bargaining chips.

Our side was warned of security problems & told the Marines should be moved to ships. But Ronnie left them there to die. (Didn't another Republican president recently ignore security warnings?)

Some Republican FDR haters did, indeed, claim advanced knowledge of the attack on Hawaii. No evidence was found. And we've had forces in Hawaii since we stole it from the Hawaiians.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

23. Why are you asking me to blame ONLY one entity?

Nope, I'll blame the bombers too, if that's ok with you.

[Redstone]

26. You're absolutely right.

Sorry that I forgot to add that to my post. Again, I agree with you.

I was trying to make the point that the bombers wouldn't have been able to kill the Marines if the Marines hadn't been sent to a place they didn't belong, without the means to defend themselves properly, with no clear instructions about what they were supposed to do.

Kinda like Iraq, yes? Hussein couldn't kill any Americans no matter how hard he tried because he was bottled up and the whole world was keeping an eye on him.

So what do we do? Put a bunch of Americans in Iraq, where not only Hussein's crowd but any other jihadist who can get a ride to Iraq can kill Americans.

Smart move.

Redstone

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. How about we blame the idiots responsible for placing a military....

...unit superbly trained for light infantry tactics into a static situation with extremely poor security?

If I remember my history correctly, British regular infantry officers hated the American colonists in the early years of the Revolutionary War because they didn't fight using accepted rules. They hid behind trees and rocks and sniped at the British infantry with rifles that had a much longer range than the muskets used by the British troops.

How is what the Islamics did in blowing up the Marine Barracks any different from what we did to the British during the Revolutionary War? Don't you think that if Washington had had a few boxes of C-4 that he would have blown up the Hessians at Trenton while they slept instead of resorting to a risky attack at dawn?

Here are some basic observations I've put together over the years:

**One man's terrorist is another man's patriot.

**One man's liberating army is another man's invader.

**What is portrayed by the media is not always what it seems.

**Winners write the history books.

[tx_dem41]

32. Well, after that long-winded post, all I have to ask is....

...where did I say I didn't place blame on Reagan's administration too? That was the whole POINT of my post. Did you even read it?

[Redstone]

35. I think he might have been agreeing with you,

but weighting the other half of the "blame allocation" more heavily.

I think you and I and some others here are on the same page with this one, but articulating our views a bit differently.

Redstone

[tx_dem41]

36. You might be right, and I appreciate you pointing out...

the possibility.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. Yes, I read it...and understood it....

Speaking of failing to get the point, what was it about my post with which you disagree? Did my post exceed your attention span, or do you just not like detailed responses?

[tx_dem41]

39. I saw your post (and still see your post) as a refutation of my

placing blame on the bombers. I disagree with that, though you certainly have the right to refute anything you want. So, I will retract the snarkiness that I added, and will apologize for it.

IMO, I just can't make the analogy between Lebanon '83 and Iraq '03-'05. It was stupid for our soldiers to be placed in either situation, but we were just not playing the same offensive, occupier role in '83 that we obviously are today.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

74. Okay...I see your point. I withdraw the edge I placed on my post, too.

[K-W]

50. ignore

ignore

[prolesunited]

18. Hey, why don't you re-up

and go get the bad guys?

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. And this from a man who thinks the IRA aren't terrorists

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1252255#1252749

So a suicide bombing aimed at US Marines is cowardly, while a bomb planted in a pub is heroic? Get real.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zippy890]

22. US in 'blood feud' with Hezbollah

I know its pointless to try and discuss this issue reasonably with you, but I have found it helpful to get educated about the subject, for anyone who wants to read a good article

FROM 'Hezbollah enters the fray"

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GC10Ak02.html

snip-

The Hezbollah 'bogeyman'
The ubiquitous description in US press reports about the militant group is that "it has killed more Americans than any other group other than al-Qaeda". Hezbollah became synonymous with terrorism in the US lexicon in October 1983, when a suicide bomber (from a group that the US claims later morphed into Hezbollah) crashed into the US Marine Corps barracks in Beirut, killing 241 US servicemen. Other attacks in Lebanon were also pinned on Hezbollah, and many American analysts would later credit the United States' withdrawal from Lebanon with emboldening al-Qaeda. The US grievance against Hezbollah is, in some ways, an old-fashioned blood feud.


Hezbollah, of course, has a longer list of grievances, and a deeper body count, than its adversaries. The group was founded, with help from revolutionary Iran, as a result of the 1982 Israeli invasion that killed up to 19,000 Lebanese, largely Shi'ites in the south. There are also personal grievances - the US Central Intelligence Agency allegedly attempted to assassinate one of Hezbollah's spiritual inspirations, Ayatollah Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, in 1985, missing him but killing 80 others. Nasrullah's 18-year-old son Hadi was also killed fighting the Israeli occupation.

---TIES TO NEW IRAQ GOVERNMENT---

It will not be easy for the US to sideline Hezbollah. Regionally, the group has close religious ties to Iraq's new Shi'ite-dominated government, which makes threatening it risky - Nasrullah studied in Najaf with many of the Da'wa Party's clerics, whose candidate (Ibrahim Jaafari ) may become Iraq's next prime minister. In addition, popular Arab support makes tackling Hezbollah difficult. And though Syria appears weak at the moment, its support, and the support of Iran, still makes Hezbollah a potent military force.

[Bridget Burke]

24. CollegeDNC appears to have left the thread....

Perhaps he's calling the Marines to re-up, so he can rejoin the RELENTLESS & RUTHLESS fight against Al Qaida. (Was he in Afghanistan when Osama escaped?)

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zenlitened]

28. Maybe if Reagan hadn't cut and run after that deadly attack...

... we wouldn't see the terrorists so empowered today.

Reagan taught terrorists a lesson valuable to them and dangerous to us: Hit America hard enough, and they'll cut and run.

Yet another poisonous legacy from St. Ronnie.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. Maybe if Ronnie hadn't been convinced by his advisors,....

...people like VP GHWB for instance, to place troops superbly trained as light infantry into a static position that begged to be blown up, we wouldn't have lost all of those Marines.

Ever wonder why the military put those troops into that situation? Could it be that the rightwingers were looking for an incident as an excuse to follow up with a military action in that area?

By the way, IMHO, Ronnie was just the figurehead in his two administrations. The guy that ran the show was actually VP GWHB, the man that also brought us the Iran-Contra operation.

Think about that.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

30. "in the same way we are targeting Al Qaida...RELENTLESSLY AND RUTHLESSLY."

But...we're NOT doing targeting Al Qaeda "RELENTLESSLY AND RUTHLESSLY". If we were, we would have maintained a much larger force in Afghanistan instead of hopping over to Iraq, which Bush's own 9/11 Commission declared had flimsy ties to Al Qaeda AT BEST.

[ElectroPrincess]

33. Forgive me, but NO-body is *all* GOOD or *all* EVIL ...

I know that sorting out the details and complexity of relationships of Hezbollah and other organizations can be frustrating, but we must stop embracing the Bush Co. policy of Good vs. Evil.

I can understand the intensity of emotions at play here. However, if we as Americans can NOT take a step back and understand the Middle East from *their* (and Western Europe's) perspective, down the road we just may get figuratively kicked in the teeth for our ignorance, arrogance and constant bully rhetoric.

It's hard to fathom NOW, but just perhaps, we may not *forever* enjoy the distinction of being the world's only superpower? Yes, double yikes!

Perhaps it's best to leave the Gods in Heaven, come down from the mountain and live in peace (and equality?) with the other peoples of this planet.

[leesa]

38. The US scum have caused the deaths of millions of innocents

The United States is ruthless and relentless. I am against the rest of the world doing ANY deals or making ANY concessions with the United States. I wonder what those brave marines were up to?

[Red_Thirst]

40. Relevance?

How many Afghanis and Iraqis were among the 19 alleged hijackers?

Answer: None. And yet we're fighting wars in both countries.

Do you know why we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq? Would the reason have anything to do with oil and natural gas?

You were just 2 years old in 1983...what the heck do you know about the political situation in the Middle East at that time? What do you know about US involvement in the Middle East since the official formation of the state of Israel?

This thread was about Hezbollah - and I am not sure whether that is directly connected with Iraq, Afghanistan or oil.

I live in the UK, where we have had to deal with the scourge of terrorism for a long time, in the form of the IRA. One interesting recent development is that Irish Republicans (supposedly the IRA's constituency) have started protesting about the IRA's criminality.

Some terrorists may have legitimate grievances (although I cannot think of any who do, off the top of my head - Hezbollah certainly do not) - but I am sure many people here would say that violence is never the answer.

[tx_dem41]

41. I believe they were sleeping in barracks when they were

killed by cowards. I also believe that, unlike in Iraq, they were there as peacekeepers (read: cannon fodder).

I hope no DU member who lost a family member or friend that day (and I'm sure there are several) has to read your post.

[K-W]

53. Peacekeepers?

Sorry, but the US is the dirtiest player in the Middle East, we dont keep peace in the middle east, we prevent it.

US soldiers have throughout history intervened illegally in the middle east. Whether or not we want to think we are at war with the people there, many of them are fairly certain they are at war with us.

I feel horrible for the people who die on all sides of these horrible situations, but theres no need to whitewash US military interests in the middle east.

[aneerkoinos]

54. Cowards?

Talking about cowards, murderous, terrorist cowards, it was warcriminal US Marines who ordered napalm bombs on civilians of Fallujah...

[K-W]

56. Why do people seem to thrive of overusing the word coward.

Attacking US marines, sleeping or otherwise is an extremely brave thing to do. Stupid, amoral, dispicable, yes. Cowerdly, no.

Oh wait, I know why. Because we want to think Bravery is a postive attribute, instead of a neutral attribute that can be applied to good and bad behaviors and decisions.

Can we please stop thinking that self sacrifice is neccessarily a virtue?

[aneerkoinos]

58. Only virtue

all religions agree upon is selfless compassion/love.

My virtue is clouded by my emotional condemnation of the fearfull and aggressive Marines, whose suffering because of their constant fear I should only pity.

Thank you.

May all suffering beings, especially Marines, become free of the constant fear and hate that they are conditioned to suffer from during their dehumanizing training.

[K-W]

60. I dont understand most of your post.

Yes selfless love is good. But selfless hate isnt. thus being selfless isnt the good, love is the good.

Yes, religions and societies love people willing to die to protect them, but I was kinda thinking maybe we could try peace instead of just fighting until we all blow each other up.

[K-W]

55. Ignore, king of misposts

ignore

[Stop_the_War]

44. You are misinformed...

Hezbollah is a political party, not a terrorist organization.

[The Straight Story]

64. political and military organization (according to wikipedia)

or other uses, see Hezbollah (disambiguation).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Hezbollah (Arabic ‮حزب الله‬, meaning Party of God) is a political and military organization in Lebanon founded in 1982 to fight Israel in southern Lebanon. It is regarded by the Arab and Muslim world, and by some European Union countries, as a legitimate, militant, Shia political party in Lebanon, and by the Israeli government and several Western governments as an Islamic fundamentalist, or Islamist, terrorist organization.

The organization was conceived in 1982 as a guerrilla group, started by Lebanese clerics and financed by Iran, to oppose the 1982 Israeli invasion and subsequent occupation of southern Lebanon. Some critics argue that the real reason it was set up by Iran was to spread the Iranian Islamic revolution into Lebanon and throughout the Arab world. It maintains an active fighting force, or militia, known as the Islamic Resistance. Since the May 2000 Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, Hezbollah has continued fighting the Israeli Defense Forces around the disputed, Israeli-occupied Shebaa Farms area. Although the United Nations regards Shebaa Farms as Syrian territory, Hezbollah considers the area a part of Lebanon. Syrian officals have orally declared that Shebaa Farms are part of Lebanon. The Shebaa farms were taken by Israel from Syria during the 1967 war. Syria was asked to notify the UN that it considered the Shebaa farms to be part of Lebanon but no official statement was ever sent. This has led some specialists to think that Hezbollah’s attempt to recapture the area was a Syrian-backed pretext to keep Israel under military pressure.

-----

would welcome further happy information about them though.

[aneerkoinos]

47. Jarheads go home ... or die n/t

[Donailin]

51. Hit and run

doesn't have the chutzpah to stick around and debate. What kind of marine is that?

[Stop_the_War]

52. a FAKE marine...

[H2O Man]

61. I hope he is

as opposed to Slim Whitman being inducted into the Country & Western Hall of Fame.

[Malikshah]

65. Thank You! I was going to say something a couple of hours ago

but I thought I'd let the person have a bit more time.

Yup.

cowardly is as cowardly does.

Now where is that asbestos suit?

[BurtWorm]

77. I can guarantee you they're giggling about this thread

in rightcuckooland.

[Darranar]

67. Hezbollah did not exist at the time. n/t

[durutti]

72. Barracks are a legitimate military target.

Regardless of one's opinion of who was on the right or wrong side, Hezbollah's bombing of the Marine barracks cannot be considered an act of terrorism.

My own view is that the U.S. had no business in Lebanon in the first place. Blame Reagan, not Hezbollah.

[LynnTheDem]

75. You are very ignorant of the facts about Hezbollah; your post proves it.

You should research before making such statements.

[raysr]

79. No deals with

the scum, fucking scum BFEE!!!!

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

82. Is it a righteous cause?

I read through this whole thread sorting through derogatory comments, interesting perspectives and some military bashing along the way.

I was in my last year of high school when this happened. I had too much going on in my own life to look deeper into it other than what the news told us.

One thing I will say is this. When it comes to our own being killed, no matter where or by whom, it never settles well with majority of Americans.

When you look at the perceptions of the military in this country, it's almost an absolute good in some people's eyes. The military serves this country in the capacity they are ordered to. When they die doing it, they then become martyrs. They are put on a pedestal and we are told they died for their country.

The government and the media both do this and that's been the case for years even when the government puts them in irresponsible harm's way.

No matter where the blame lies in this instance and even in Iraq, people don't join the military with the intention of inflicting harm. Speaking for myself, I joined to earn a living for me and my daughter since the slob of an ex I had wouldn't do it. It was an added plus that I would be serving my country.

Many of us are taught early on that serving your country is honorable and selfless. It's ingrained to such an extent that in many cases a person can become blinded by it.

The only way it is honorable and selfless is when the cause is. That, my friends, is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

[Moderator]

83. Locking

No fresh fuel remains for the fire....