How similar is the war in Iraq to Vietnam?

[sabra]

[ashmanonar]

1. hmm

unnecessary (for ideological and profiteering reasons rather than defense...vietnam was to aid an ally, ostensibly)
dangerous (taking soldiers into mostly civilian areas isn't a smart idea. especially a hostile civilian area. you end up with the VC (or in this case, the insurgents) hiding among the populace and setting bombs, etc.)

anyone else wanna take a crack at it, something i've missed?

[KharmaTrain]

4. Very Good Start...

Definitely both wars biggest winners were the profiteers and ideology was used as a cover for their plundering. Our leaders are playing games based on think tanks and theories...far removed from the realities of the people and cultures involved.

Another common thread is how minorities are doing a majority of the fighting and dying...forced into a military due to few other good career or educational opportunities.

Also, we have a nation stuck in a myopia about our place in the world and those of the people we're "defending/fighting". There's few who understand the real roots of the conflict and problem; prefering the flag waiving and the "me-too-ism" the Repugnicans have fine tuned in their "war on terror" bullshit. Might as well replace "commie" with "muslim".

Cheers!

[ashmanonar]

14. you're also right.

you get a cookie!

the only thing i don't get from vietnam that i got from iraq was the true "me-too-ism". vietnam was more "vietwhere?", probably bc the media is a lot faster and more controlled today. back then it took a while to get information disseminated. so people had more time to think, and reason.

i may be wrong, and call me on it if i am. i'm not of age to have been around during vietnam. what i see about it now, that's what i see.

[KharmaTrain]

19. Vietnam Was 11 Very Long Years...

Break it down this way:

1964-1966...the build up...Gulf Of Tonkin (LBJ's "WMD" excuse), then the landing of the Marines a year later at Ia Drang...that's when our blood started to spill.

1966-1968...kinda like now...lots of flag waiving, a bit of protest by "hippies" and most people didn't know much about the war than we were "winning" and this was "us vs. the commies"...pretty simplistic thoughts fueled by a government stuck deeper and deeper in it's mis-steps and lies. As I say, kinda like now.

1968-1970...Tet...when much of America woke up to the shithole this war had become and a sense of betrayal...first at LBJ, then at the military in general (this is where many of the Slimeboaters feel they got burned). Peace talks dragged on, death tolls mounted, more veterans came home with half their brains scrambled and people were starting to speak up and out about the war.

1970-1972...The peak of the anti-war years. After Nixon invaded Cambodia & Laos, shit hit the fan on college campuses (Kent State & Jackson State...no one remembers that one), millions marched on the mall and the horrors of the war (Calley) was coming to light. People were sick of a war everyone now knew wasn't going to be won...we were just looking for a way out. Many of us at that point became involved in the welfare of the P.O.W.s (Anyone remember the POW bracelts?) and returning veterans who were even getting turned away at the VFWs...they could come and party with us.

1972...1975 The slow end. The U.S. pulls troops out in '73 but still keeps funding the South Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians but now Watergate is the flavor of the moment and as soon as the P.O.W.s land, everyone wants to forget about the war. Then in '75, the dominoes finally fell...and I can remember a large sense of relief in this country...the war was over. There was no popular consensus for Ford to help the South Vietnamese and wisely didn't.

This is a very vague timeline and I'm certain others here who were around can pick it apart, but this kinda gives you a sense of how long Vietnam was, and thus the analogies to what's currently going on are only partially true. Unfortunately, I fear we will be in for a replay with far more humiliating results.

Cheers!

[ashmanonar]

20. yea, that's what i thought i was wrong about.

your breakdown sounds right. i just hope we don't have to go through 10 years or 20 years or 50 years of this stuff, i'm hoping we can get the word out sooner and break up the support for the war.

now the question is how...

[Cleita]

12. Incompetence.

Neither war actually had a plan.

[ashmanonar]

13. that too.

you're right on.

[China_cat]

2. In the matter of lies that got us there

and kept us there, very.

But during Vietnam we had nightly body counts on the news, for Iraq we're supposed to pretend that none of ours have died.

You could protest the Vietnam War outside the White House gates. Nixon wouldn't even look at the protesters but they could be there. Today you can't even ask a question that implies you don't support the administration 100% without risking disappearing.

If you protested during VN, you risked a file in the FBI office, having your phone tapped, your mail read. You know what you risk protesting Iraq.

[Webster Green]

3. Check this out!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3199622

[illflem]

5. Striking similarity

is that for the first five years of Vietnam our goal was to train and equip the South Vietnamese Army to fight their own battle so we could leave. We all know how that turned out when the war ended up going on for seven more years with much of the SVA defecting to the other side and with most of the really bad atrocities being committed by the SVA.

[MADem]

6. There is a GREAT UNAWARE FACTION during this war

Back in the Vietnam era, there were fewer people who fell in the "Don't give a shit" category. You picked your side, and there you were. The AMERICA RIGHT OR WRONG crowd had the WW2 mindset, and couldn't comprehend the US getting into a war of choice--of COURSE it was necessary, because the GOVERNMENT SAID SO. Much more blind trust, back then. The antiwar types decried the killing and brutality, the imperialist nature of the effort, didn't buy a lot of the deterrence, domino theory and other arguments that were making the rounds, and a lot of them viewed the poor drafted soldiers, the hapless instruments of policy, as willing conspirators with the policy makers (that wasn't the case, but it made it easier to get riled up about the effort).

Nowadays, there are a TON of people who don't care, who don't watch the news, who are completely oblivious--they can tell you what JLo wore at the Grammys but they can't tell you who Alberto Gonzalez is... and on the margins are the politically interested PRO and ANTI factions. Even though war news is easy to find if you know where to look, it is also very easy to avoid...and avoid it many do!

A draft WILL change that. All politics is local, and if your kid, your cousin, your friend, your friend's kid, or you end up with a low number, the awareness level will rise, and you can bet that a lot of those rah-rah war-war types will step back once they realize that their ass could be shot full of hot lead.

But back in the old days, like it or not, that war info was shoved in your face during the evening news. There was no choice in TV programming, and if you wanted to watch TV during what was quaintly called "the dinner hour" you had no choice but to see those images. Nowadays, you can just flip to the cartoon channel or go play X box.

But back then, TV actually WENT OFF AT NIGHT. After the late movie (and later, the late-late movie) they'd show you this crappy, spotty lined film (or sometimes put up a faded slide) of the flag waving, and play the National Anthem. Thank you, and GOOD NIGHT...TEST PATTERN!!!!!!!! Then, it was radio till morning, if you had one of those 'sit on your ass' jobs and worked the night shift, or grab the paper and do a bit of reading. When UHF stations started to take off, they slowly started grabbing the niche markets of late night viewers (really, REALLY old movies--a lot of them dreadful) and kids (those reruns of Leave it To Beaver and Dennis the Menace). But they didn't get into the news game until much later...that belonged to the BIG THREE (ABC, NBC, CBS).

And everyone watched the news back then, even if they didn't especially give a shit, because there were a variety of stories (not just war), it was interesting, they had film of the action--a window into a very different world that most had not seen before. The parents would yell at the kids "SHUT THE HELL UP--I'm WATCHING THE NEWS!!!!" And the kids would shut up, and learn something from the tube in the process.

Eat your vegetables, and watch the war. And that's the way it was....

[Hardrada]

7. Our PBS station goes off at night after national hymn etc.

but it doesn't have anything good on it anymore so who gives a fukk?

[tinonedown]

8. We should not be there

Other than that, it doesn't much matter if they are alike or not.
We should not be there.

[Charon]

9. How Similar

Iraq was clearly started by a Republican.

[Zenlitened]

10. Vietnam:

Iraq:



:cry:

[LynnTheDem]

11. Yep.

Those 2 pics say it all.

[ashmanonar]

15. except now we get it live on our tv, in living color!

instead of taken by photographers and put in time magazine...:/

[sandnsea]

16. We got it on tv then too

Every night on the news. Body counts, film clips, all of it. My entire childhood was the Vietnam War, night after night after night. From as early as I can remember until I was 16.

[ashmanonar]

17. hmmm...

i just realized the error of my statement. the problem now is that we DON'T get the full force of it through the media.

[Abelman]

18. One similarity

My history teacher in High School told us the lessons America supposedly learned from the Vietnam War, and explained how they were utilized in Operation: Desert Storm.

One that I remember quite well: Have a clear, concise goal, easily identifiable. During Vietnam, the goal wasn't very clear. Fight Communism? Get rid of the Viet Cong? The current Iraq war keeps changing reasons. First it was because of WMDs, maybe terrorism. Which one? Now it's democracy? Or is it quelling insurgency?

Another: Know who the enemy is. This was easy during WWII, as well as Desert Storm. We had identifiable enemies. In Vietnam, we were fighting an idea: Communism. This time, we are fighting a "Threat against democracy?" This is tied fairly closely to the first item.

There are three other lessons Vietnam supposedly taught us, and I'm very upset that I've forgotten them. Ah, one was fight in territory you know well. So that's not an issue, but it's very clear that the lessons we were supposed to learn from Vietnam have mostly been cast aside for the current battles.