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Is Mt. Rushmore American or unAmerican?

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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:27 PM
Original message
Poll question: Is Mt. Rushmore American or unAmerican?
As my two posts in the 'Confederate flag' thread attest, that is an issue in which I just do not get overly emotional. The flag is a symbol, and I am not terribly interested in symbols and how they are interpreted, accurately or not. Actions, not symbols, cause real harm.

So, I am interested in active desecrations and acts of hate or disrespect, and folks, the much-revered national monument known as "Mt. Rushmore" seriously qualifies on several levels as a hateful, disrespectful monument. Most certainly, a different kind of monument than most Americans view it.

The mountain which sculptor Gutzon Borglum carved those four dead white politicians onto is sacred to the Lakota Sioux. This to me is akin to carving a monument to Hitler on the Wailing Wall. But since marginalizing Native American religion and culture is as American as apple pie and cheating on your taxes, I daresay "Mt. Rushmore" is very American, indeed. Just not in the good way.

Borglum, in accordance with this very American streak, chose four of the most commonly revered dead presidents in our history up to this point (and no doubt, you have heard of the Reagan-worshippers wanting to add his wretched countenance to the façade). All four of them played a part in the genocide or marginalization of Native Americans. Consider Jefferson's vicious slander in the Declaration of Independence, or even Lincoln, whom even I am not above admiration for in many ways, ordered the suppression of many so-called "rebellions", which amounted to wholesale slaughter of tribal bands.

Then there is the irony of Theodore Roosevelt's likeness, of whose phallic ('speak softly and carry a big stick') foreign policy doubtlessly appealed to the hypernationalist Borglum, being carved into a mountainside which was part of the naturally beautiful western landscape TR spent so much of his career trying to preserve.

But if you are still not convinced by the case I have made so far, consider that the self-styled patriot who was Gutzon Borglum, went on to some prominence in the highest echelons of none other than the Ku Klux Klan. He also got started on the Confederate memorial to their most-revered generals, now carved into Stone Mountain, Georgia. The irony that Borglum revered Lincoln (and even named his son after him) is almost too much to fathom. But isn't this kind of contradiction a very American trait as well?

So I cannot get frothed-up over the Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (even as Borglum himself probably admired it). Instead, I get frothed-up at the active, willful, wholehearted desecration of Lakota Sioux sacred land (or just in itself the natural beauty of South Dakota's Black Hills, and the Georgia countryside), and the glorification of dead white men who cared not a whit for the well-being and freedom of the peoples they sought to replace. Whether the glorified were presidents, or the generals who rebelled against the so-called founding principles of three of those presidents - it is desecration on several levels. For centuries hence, this ugliness is embodied with the likenesses sculpted by way of that "marvelous engineering feat" doubling as a mediocre rock-carving.

Piss on the memory of Gutzon Borglum and his shitty mountanside sculptures, which reveal the true ugliness of America's worst flaws, in red, white, and blue bunting, so that it is palatable to the masses.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is this a push poll?
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. not quite
This is more of what I'd call a "shove" poll.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. LOL!
:D
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. You can call it late for dinner
And I appreciate the kick just the same. ;-)
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NervousRex Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. American
Trashing a mountain with nationalistic icons is fairly consistant with what America has always stood for in deed rather than word.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Headline Had Me Crying, "LOUNGE," But as Usual
there is more thoughtfulness to a ZW post. Much more.
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TexasProgresive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. I heard a rumor that it was a rite of passage at
one time for young Lakota men to climb over the top of Teddy's head and urinate down his nose. I doubt they can do that anymore with increase security.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. typically American
one more wicked example of American encroachment on Indian land. A national disgrace and a mockery of these notions of freedom and liberty that are repeatedly expoused by American romanticists.
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Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. We have other battles to fight besides Mt. Rushmore being ecologically bad
Honestly.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. That was maybe 1% of my point
How about the spiritual aspect? The historical whitewashing aspect? Those may be small "battles" to you (since you choose war metaphors as your means of communicating your opinion), but in the big scheme of things, this sure beats the hell out of the endless tinfoiling and Gannon-obsessing that goes on in here.

In GD, just about any topic of historical or philosophical import is conducted. This is my baby, and I think it's a damn good topic.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. Depends on what we believe being an American means
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 01:05 PM by nini
if you acknowledge America has shown little regard for Native American's culture and religion throughout history - then these sculptures surely follow the 'American' way.

If you believe the treatment of Native Americans by this country has been wrong and America is better than that..then it is UnAmerican.

So I would say based on my belief of what we 'should' be - I say UnAmerican. But, I could just as easily say 'American' based on the reality that our history proves we have not treated others as I believe we should.

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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Now someone gets it!
I feel an indispensable part of this discussion veers into just what "American" or "unAmerican" means, and how elastic it is. There is no pat answer, including my own. Both answers can be right, depending on one's frame of reference. This is counter-intuitive to much of the ideological purity and reactionary thinking all too prevalent in GD.

:loveya:
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. It took me a while to figure out how to answer the question ...
for that very reason. There is no simple answer for me in my views of what we are and what I believe we should be.








Ok, I'm really going out now or I'll never get my stuff done today :loveya:


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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. thanks ZW for the info about the guy
I didn't know all that, but it makes sense.

The Teddy Roosevelt saying is an old African one apparently, not his originally (it was a jeopardy questiont the other day.)
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. True!
He popularized it. I did not mean to imply he originated that. I always appreciate clarity, and ANY references to Jeopardy. :D
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
14. It's no different than ancient civilizations carving sculptures in
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 01:44 PM by Quixote1818
mountains. I am as green as they get but in a few thousand years it will fall apart and be gone anyway. Lets face it, humans are capable of some bad stuff, even Native Americans tribes attacked other Native American tribes for land and if such war like tribes had landed on the American shore more advanced with war than the indigenous culture you can bet the same kind of stuff would have happened. I don't feel proud of what or four Fathers did at all but I also don't see myself as any different than a Native American. I have a little bit of all kinds of ancestry in me including some Native American. I also have English and French but I don't worry too much about what the Germans did to my ancestors in Europe. Where does the forgiveness start? We are all humans and I am not real big into labels which categorize people. It's time to move past the past and to deal with the problems of today.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Again...
Any reference to the environment is maybe 1% of my point. I find it interesting that two posters see fit to dwell on that, and ignore the LARGER point I am making - namely, ownership of our history, and the meaning of symbols versus action. Also, I find the spiritual desecration of Rushmore is FAR, FAR more significant than any environmental impact.

In fact, I did NOT make an ecological argument, I made an aesthetic one when I mentioned "natural beauty". There IS a difference. A HUGE difference.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. I updated my post. Take another look. nt
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Those are all valid points
But I counter by saying how we view the past has everything to do with how we deal with the present, and the future.

If you are so inclined, check into James Loewen's "Lies Across America: What Our Historic Sites Get Wrong". It enlarges on that point, about how our views of the past affect our decisions of the present. We owe it to ourselves to tell the truth about our past.
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AVID Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. is this the "we'll all be dead, anyway" argument?
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Take another look as I posted too soon. I updated it. nt
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. More on your points
Yes, many tribes spent the better part of their lives trying to eradicate other tribes. It's not unlike the Balkans in that respect.

Hell, here in Arizona, the Navajo and Apache tribes both have unflattering origins to their names due to what other tribes called them. It's nothing to romanticize.

But two wrongs don't make a right, and neither does might make right. Whatever the Sioux or the other Plains Indians (or our local southwestern tribes here) were doing to one another, some white supremacist asshole with a crazed art agenda carving dead politicians on a sacred rock isn't merely okay just because time will erase it, or because we can't change the past, or any other number of blasé affirmations of manifest destiny.

I refuse to be complacent, and neither am I romanticizing, which is antithetical to a historian such as myself.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. Those 4 presidents did NOT slaughter Native Americans.
It is not fair to say they ripped off or killed the indians.

But they were simply content with their slaves, with Jefferson going the extra mile to ensure his contendedness, while writing the Constitution of all things...
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Astarho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. Actually
only Washington and Jefferson could be let off the hook.

Lincoln did show leniency to the three hundred some men convicted of the Sioux Uprising in 1862, (only executing 38) but the Long Walk and Sand Creek both occured while Lincoln was CIC.

The Indian wars were more or less over by the time Roosevelt came to office, but he did allow the government to seize 50,000 acres near Taos NM sacred to the Indians of Taos. Also, 2 days before leaving office, he issued 8 executive orders transferring 2.5 million acres of reservation timberland to the national forests.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
20. This is American:
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 01:46 PM by Minstrel Boy



http://www.crazyhorse.org/
"Always admitted free are Native Americans, military personnel with active duty ID, Boy Scout and Girl Scout troops in uniform, and Custer County, SD, residents."

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Stop_the_War Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. That is cool
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Stop_the_War Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
23. i don't know which one to choose!
Edited on Sun Mar-06-05 01:59 PM by Stop_the_War
damn my head is spinning because of this :crazy:

I guess I choose UnAmerican because of what the monument builder did by stealing Lakota Sioux land and such. Not because I dislike the people on the monument.

There, I feel better now. I think my head stopped spinning. Whew.
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tinonedown Donating Member (329 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
27. Not only unAmerican, but rascist
No people of color up there? UnAmerican of course, easy call.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
28. Other: hideous and disrespectful. I can make a case either way
on that basis.
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. You can't really be comparing American Presidents to Hitler, can you?
I underatnd your point about the Lakota Sioux, but I think we're talking about two different things.
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Briarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-06-05 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
30. American
for all the reasons you listed, it's almost a perfect monument to the ugly american.
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