Please listen to vetwife's own words on The Guy James Show.

[benburch]

The archive of this call will post as soon as I can after the show ends.

http://www.WhiteRoseSociety.org/James.html

Anybody who has been trashing her today needs to hear her own words. And be ashamed.

[kiraboo]

1. I heard her words, and I understand her perspective.

However I believe her outlook must necessarily be affected by her personal experiences. Nobody gains when we trash veterans indescriminately. Similarly, nothing good is achieved if we ignore that there have been and will continue to be soldiers who act either under order or on their own impulse in ways that cannot be condoned. I admit that I find myself angry - yes, very angry - when I hear that somebody is thinking about signing up, or that they are eager to get over to Iraq to aid in the "liberation." Who are these people? On the other hand, they are just that, "people", and as deserving of compassion and understanding as anybody else. Generalizations can be damaging and are sometimes a response to anger, or fear. We are all above that.

[linazelle]

2. She's "for" veterans but against John Kerry's earned medals...

A SwiftBoatVetWife as it were.

Now why would she do that? Sorry, but that position alone is enough to negate whatever she might have stood for. Good riddance.

[benburch]

4. She donated to the Kerry campaign.

How can you square that?

[linazelle]

7. You ask ME to make sense of nonsense? Not gonna happen

The woman obviously has some issues. I still believe she deserves what happened because of her duplicitous behavior.

[Toucano]

8. That's easy

The two are unrelated.

The issue raised isn't who she contributed to, but her disrespect for a veteran's earned medals.

The conflict that was being pointed out was between her stated support for veterans and her demonstrated disrespect for a veteran.

Who she voted for or contributed to is a separate issue.

[two gun sid]

10. Good point. Do you know if she was ever trying to sell shit to....

people on the board? Did she ask for donations? I think she is probably just a self-inflated wacko but I won't discount the fact that she may be a huckster and a grifter. She always seemed a bit tweaked to me. I'm a veteran and I've never felt all this animosity she claims is on DU. I just am not comfortable with people who claim to be working for my benefit. Somehow they are never what they try to appear.

[jonnyblitz]

14. she was selling CD's here at DU nt

[ultraist]

19. Has it been verified that she donated to Kerry?

I find it very odd that she trashed his medals AND donated to him and now is moderating very conservative PRO BUSH sites.

If there weren't so much drama surrounding this incident, it may be clearer.

[jonnyblitz]

24. I don't know about the kerry thing.

:shrug:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

135. I looked for Amanda Kato on opensecrets.org and found no listings

for the 2004 election cycle. If she made a series of donations under 200 bucks she might not be flagged though.

[benburch]

148. My donations don't show up there, BTW.

And all were under $100 but totaled about $750.

[two gun sid]

20. Thanks. I think I'll just move on to other issues now.

[XanaDUer]

25. Cds of what, if you know?

Just curious.

[jonnyblitz]

27. i have no idea. a few DUers mentioned buying them

in other threads.

[XanaDUer]

28. Ok, thanks.

...

[tblue37]

132. It was an anti-Bush CD she put together,

listing all the programs he cut and things like that. It was called "Take It Back," and it was about "taking back" our country from the Bush administration.

[coreystone]

52. Ask Skinner if he received 50% of the net proceeds! Very interesting...

answer could be forthcoming!

:-)

[benburch]

90. Did he really?

I know that she personally financially supported Guy James, White Rose, and others.

This is what I mean about us casting out people we have a history with.

Coreystone, I admit that I am much more than a little upset with what vetwife posted on that other board, but I still think that talking to her about it first would have been far, far preferable.

[tishaLA]

97. But I thought she owed no explanation...

at least that's what I recall hearing twice on the radio show. But I would like an explanation about the Kerry "band-aid" wounds slander. It seems to me that anyone would want to hear an explanation about that if he or she thought it was an erroneous, outrageous thing to say.

As I've said elsewhere, I honor what she and others have done for vets and I hope she will be among the many who continue to do that work. But slandering Sen, Kerry like that is contemptible to me, especially when she posts pictures of herself with Sen. Cleland, who was one of Sen. Kerry's most ardent defenders against those RW charges.

[benburch]

100. When somebody reacts based on a personal relationship...

and is not yet acquainted with all of the facts of the matter, you cannot hold that against him. We humans form bonds with people, and are slow to even question those bonds when people have done things for us that are above and beyond what anybody would have expected.

[seabeyond]

114. i totally inderstand his connection to her then

also he has a responsibility presenting to the public so i hope he made it clear to his viewers his rather personal connection to her that might cloud his judgement

instead of just allowing a trash of a totally innocent identity in du, that has also supported the man

[two gun sid]

104. Hey, wait a minute. I love your web site, but she financially ....

supported you and others? Doesn't that seem a little bit odd to you? Especially if she was posting anti-progressive threads at the other board?

This whole thing really is starting to smell funny.

[benburch]

108. It does smell funny.

And she did support Guy James, White Rose, and DU!!!

Financially.

It's like we were talking about two totally different people, and I am totally confused.

[two gun sid]

112. I want to just move on from this mess

but, it just seems awful goddamn strange. I'm no tinfoil hatter but, I'm trying to think like Rove thinks. Someone who knows the situation better than I is gonna have to figure it.

[benburch]

116. I can't think my way around this one, sid...

And they tell me I have a 150 IQ, whatever that actually measures...

[two gun sid]

126. Well, it is certainly higher than mine!

With all the things that have been exposed about the media lately I am really suspicious. My first thought was that she was just a wacko craving attention. The few posts of hers I had seen prior to this morning always seemed kinda "tweaked". Then I thought she was just out to fleece good-hearted people. Now I'm not sure. If she was supporting all these web sites I just kinda wonder why she would be asking for donations and selling CD's. Maybe my first impression was right. Donald Segretti warped my view of politics when I was young I guess.

[benburch]

129. I'm not sure that IQ measures anything other than test-taking ability.

I was in Mensa for a couple of years when I was in my late teens, and I am here to tell you that some really stupid people are Mensans.

[two gun sid]

151. benburch, are you plugged in enough to know....

if DU really gets under the RW's skin? I'm not talking about some ignorant, white trash freepers. I mean someone with solid ties to an organization. If you think I'm off base smack me down.

[benburch]

152. Oh yes. We absolutely do get under their skin.

And I know for fact (due to web logs on pictures I have posted here and host on my own server) that people from the RNC, Justice Department, FBI, and Treasury do in fact read much of what is on DU regularly!

We are being watched.

And they do NOT like us.

And I am quite sure they would seize any pretext to shut us down.

[two gun sid]

156. Well, after a little bit of googling I don't think.....

it has anything to do with shutting DU down. IMHO she is just a disturbed person seeking attention and maybe a little bit of fame and recognition. Man, she sure likes to get dressed up, Georgia style, for her photo ops. Kinda sad really. I'm one vet that refuses to allow her to speak for me.



Oh, and Agent Mike, if you're reading this: Fuck you. I piss down the throats of you Nazis.(Apologies to Hunter S. Thompson).

[bpilgrim]

121. got a link?

i never heard about that???

peace

[benburch]

127. Billy, look at some of the screenshots Trumad posted below...

And some of the links.

She seems to have been posting on that board since November.

[bpilgrim]

130. sorry, i came into this late... but how do we know it's her?

or are we just speculating at this point :shrug:

guess i got a lot of reading to do.

BTW: i'm listening to your guy james archive... when does she come on?

thanks for all you do :toast:

peace

[benburch]

133. She has stipulated that it is her.

And claims she was over there as a sort of missionary. But her words do seem to say otherwise, and that distresses me greatly.

[bpilgrim]

137. ic... can you post a link to her thread over there?

or have the threads been deleted and thats why we only got screen shots?

tia

peace

[benburch]

140. Not permitted to post a link to that site here.

Against DU rules.

[seabeyond]

142. something happened to the site a couple weeks ago

i heard someone say that they didnt have a back up and the history got wiped out. i was going in there and viewing, and i am seeing i dont have access to stuff i did in past. maybe that is true. that would go with what i am now experiencing

[bpilgrim]

153. sheesh... it's against the rules to even post a link to the site, must be

pretty bad. is it called conservative underground?

i guess that explains her being banned here.

peace

[trumad]

16. Here ya go

[ultraist]

23. Not to sound caddy, but...

doesn't she look a LOT different in her avatar than she does in those photos she posted of herself today? What's the deal with that?

[XanaDUer]

26. That one looks like a "glamour shot"

...

[bpilgrim]

123. maybe it's a different poster?

how do we know it's her?

peace

[Desertrose]

3. I'm glad she called in & shared her pov

It always scared me how fast we turn on people without taking time to get all the facts.


I really can't fault vetwife for her passion. We don't agree on somethings but I don't agree with a lot of people on a lot of things...doesn't mean either is wrong.

I really have to give her a lot credit for all the work & heart & passion she puts into the veteran issues.

thanks ben:)

[Desertrose]

139. I'll tell ya...the more I read, the stranger it gets

sounds like there was more than one agenda going on in all this.....

I had personally run up against her single minded focus on a few things and I gotta tell you, when someone is completely unable to see another's point of view as she seems to be unable to do...my flags go up bigtime......


....and as far as dirty hippies spitting on the soldiers....I lived through that time and most of the hippies (myself included) were neither dirty nor did ANY that I was aware of, spit on returning soldiers. Most had compassion for them since most were drafted back then.

I don't like tunnel vision any better looking backwards than I do seeing in the present...

Something doesn't ring true here and it may simply be the fact this woman has found a way to get the attention she seems to need...:shrug:

The more I know the less I know.....

[cally]

5. I don't know what to think

I've read the threads about this and saw her postings. I just saw her as a another passionate DUer. I don't agree with some of their posts but they are on our side. Vetwife posted that DUers hate the military....more accurately, we don't support the troops. Then I find out she moderates a conservative site. To be honest, I can almost understand that. I might do than to promote my cause. But to dis DUers constantly, and then pretend to be one of us? No way.

She has a lot of explaining to do.

[Pithlet]

41. Exactly. Why won't she explain herself?

I hear both sides of this story, and they don't jive. Sure, she's passionate about what she believes. There's nothing wrong with that. But, her good bye thread here trashing us, and her posts at other sites are wrong, and we at DU have a right to at least be perplexed by that. If that isn't her, and she didn't post those things, why doesn't she say so? When asked for examples of how DU is so anti-troops in her goodbye, why didn't she come up with some?

[Malva Zebrina]

6. Dear Ben

I like what you provide on your whiterose site, use it to listen to Malloy, and have been saving up a little bit, or at the least not contributing to others, so I can send you a donation which will be very small, according to my budget, but, you know, an appearance on the Guy James show, or any show, does not validate anyone or validate their cause, much as I like to listen to Guy.

Look at the Randi Rhodes show, and how she was duped by Bev Harris into pleading with her listeners to send a dollar to Harris. To this day we do not know how much money Harris accumulated due to that publicity and to this day, as we all have seen, Harris has not contributed a damn thing at all but cirque de Harris, grandstanding and questionable activity re the election in Florida or elsewhere.

Randi now admits it was a mistake to do so, in her blunt honest fashion.

I think we must let this vetwife go on her own chosen way, which apparently is to be more comfortable posting on right wing websites--indeed, even moderating them.

[FreedomAngel82]

11. I remember that

Did anybody ever find what's up with her? I think if Harris was really serious about helping she would've teamed up with Conyers, Arnebeck and Cobbs. She never did did she?

[SoCalDem]

154. Exactly.. Cyberspace can be a tricky place

People can adopt any persona they choose, and can reveal (or not) personal things to familiarize themselves with the other members.. BUT, anonymity can also be "dangerous", and duplicitous.. This is one reason why I always cringe when people here brag about how they masquerade at FR. They can end up not trusted anywhere.
As for the vet-bashing, I go back to the INTERNET issue. Anonymous people sitting at keyboards all over the world, can (and do) say outrageous things, but I NEVER EVER associate what one, or a few people, say(s). with the rest of DUers....

There are as many opinions here as there are people, and to issue a blanket statement is not fair. In fact, when my friend's son was in Iraq, I have NO shortage of DUers signing up to adopt these people and send them things. People who did NOT support the war were more that ready and generous to these young guys.

As for selling stuff and fund raising, the old caveat "buyer beware" comes to mind. When people have met outside cyberspace, and really do know each other it's one thing, but anyone can type up any sad story, and there will always be generous people who will respond. To complain afterwards is counterproductive. When you give money, you have to expect nothing in return. You are doing it as a kind gesture, even if it turns out later that you were duped.

It does set a bad precedent though... where do you draw the line? Every one of us has crisis in our lives from time to time, and help given can be a godsend, but when it's done in a public forum, the "line" can be drawn between the "generous people" and the "skinflints".. It's got to be a difficult issue for admin to know when to allow it and when not to.

I remember waaaay back when DU was new, someone had tornado damage (or so they said) and many DUers responded.. As far as I recall, that person never posted again.

We all just need to be a bit more careful:)

[madrchsod]

9. i read her post last night

she was basically saying a few people around here don`t like the soldiers in the united states army and that maybe true. so what was the support everyone has given to all those members who have kin in the services? what about the support we gave from our collective and individual heart we gave to mari333? i guess vetwife thought that wasn`t good enough...oh well she`ll be happy over there bashing the big bad demorats here..good ridden`s.
i am not ashamed about how i perceive what she did and now it seems she may have more issues than what happened here. calling a radio show to bitch about du? jesus i didn`t think we are that influential

[Bunny]

12. Thank you. So many of us here were steadfastly behind

mari333, and supported her when her son was sent overseas, and when her husband was killed in the car accident, and we rejoiced with her when her son finally came home.

And we sent money to various vets groups. And a number of us send/sent care packages to troops in Iraq. For her to conjure up some ludicrous drama queen shitstorm about how WE don't support the troops is beyond the pale. She fucked up here - let her go elsewhere and spew her nonsense about us. Fuck her.

[jedr]

13. I'm a vet;

and the worst treatment I ever got was from the v.f.w when I came home from 'nam....the next was watching the Republican party trash MC Cain,
Celeland and Kerry...in the first place all d/u is is a bunch of people writing opinions and comments...hell, this morning someone ask if anyone else was high on mushroom....take this with a grain of salt...if this woman is offend; that's on her, she needs to understand what is real

[Goldmund]

17. Welcome to DU

[FreedomAngel82]

18. Right

This is a message board and you don't have to stay but I don't like when someone goes around and bashes a whole group it isn't fair.

[madrchsod]

21. i remember those days

i always thought it was ironic that we who protested were shit then when you guys came back those asses treated you just as bad. i remember some of the guys where i live getting shit and couldn`t join cause nam wasn`t a "real war".

[merh]

15. It was vetwife that chose to leave DU and in making her dramatic

farewell, she bashed all of DU alleging that we were anti-troops and/or vets. That was wrong in so many ways.

She has been posting here long enough to know that the majority of DUers support the troops, we believe we can support the troops and oppose the war at the same time. The two concepts are not antognistic, it is because we support the troops we want them home and we don't want any more to be maimed or killed in the illegal and immoral war.

Some of the troops are war criminals, if some here post a thread referring to them as such that does not mean they believe all are war criminals and it certainly does not mean that all at DU agree with them.

Vetwife does not own the monopoly on supporting vets. She is not the only one that supports vets and just because others on DU do not support the vets the same way she has does not make them wrong and her right or vice a versa.

After reading her post in that other world she frequents bashing Kerry and his medals, I have to agree with others that have posted here. She does not support all vets, she mocks Kerry's medals and ridicules his service, that puts her in the same boat as the swifties. It is vetwife that should ba ashamed. She mocks a vet for entertainment purposes and to give herself credibility on another forum.

If posts here at DU bothered her she had several options available to her, she could ignore them, she could post her point of view and move on or she could alert the mods or report the posts in the admin forum if she thought they were disruptive or contrary to the purpose of this forum.

If she wanted to leave, all she had to do was stop coming here, forget her password, move on. Instead, she posted a vanity post of her photos proving her involvement at the same time she insulted the community and started a flame fest.

She made her choice. I hope she keeps up the good work she had done for the vets. If she does she might recognize that we are not the enemy, the admin and all those who support the admin are the enemy of the vets.

[jonnyblitz]

22. good post. her apologists just don't get this. truly sad. nt

[Walt Starr]

29. I see no reason to listen to her

I read her post of last night.
\
I will now refrain from listening to the Guy James show.

[benburch]

30. Walt, I know you are more fair than that.

We cannot cast off old friends because they lose their tempers and rant once. That's just not what Liberals are about.

[Walt Starr]

31. On most occasions I would agree, but I think she spat squarely in the face

of every DUer who served. She insulted the entire forum and has repeatedly disrespected the entire forum on a rightwing site.

[benburch]

32. I just have a hard time giving up on her since she stood by Mari333

and others.

[benburch]

34. It is posted now...

Listen if you want to.

Maybe I am just too much of a fuzzy-headed liberal, but I forgive people freely;

Matthew 18: 21 – 22

21  Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me?  Up to seven times?”

22  Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

[Walt Starr]

35. Scripture doesn't work on me. I'm immune

Heathen Pagans are like that.

I'll give it a listen after my wife goes to bed. Maybe.

[benburch]

38. I'm a pagan too.

A Thelemite in fact, but the Rabbi Jesus had a few wise things to say, that being one of them.

[Walt Starr]

44. One mythology I pay little attention to

It's too plagarized. I go to the originals instead.

That said, How far into this damn thing is her call? I'm listening, but she hasn't phoned in yet.

[benburch]

48. I recall about 90 minutes in. nt

[Walt Starr]

58. It's on now

I'm listening.

[BeHereNow]

72. I have no problem forgiving anyone-

however, what is difficult is identifying EXACTLY
what needs to be forgiven.
That she is human and subject to all the
frailties of ego?
That she may have acted from those frailties?
No problem-
Was it Christian as she claims to be?
No.
Christians do not excuse atrocities simply because
someone is wearing a uniform amd therefore is called a "troop."
Maybe I have misunderstood, but I got the impression that
she objected to DUers calling war criminals by their
proper names.
Some members of our military are war criminals
and as a Christian myself, I will not support them
simply because they are in uniform.
BHN

[BeHereNow]

Sorry, but as an observer of this circus

I have to ask her motive in standing
by Mari333.
I have to ask her motive in accusing an
entire message board population on
another site of troop bashing.
As an observer, I see someone who
morphs into whatever identity will gain
approval from the audience it is in front of.
It is my strong suspicion that the "farewell and fuck you"
post that she made her exit from DU with was
for the benefit of the members on another
message board that she found more approval on.
I always liked Vetwife and believed that she was
a fellow Christian, but at this point I am convinced that
the majority of her actions have been based in self
validation and not Christ.
Many Christians today fool themselves into thinking
their self glorifying actions are in accordance with
the teachings of Christ.
I think perhaps this may be the case with Vetwife,
who to me, appears to have sought the comfort of
worldly approval rather than the anonymity of good works.
I say this because I believe the public way in which she bashed
all of us on her farewell thread was meant for another
message board's further adoration of her, and persecution
of DU.
Sort of like Judas?
The other site offered thirty pieces of silver, that is all.

BHN

[G_j]

93. I appreciate your input

I suffered insomnia last night which led me to witness the thread while it unfolded. It wouldn't have occurred to me that it was for the benefit of other lurkers, why would it?
But yes, it does feel that way now. I don't off-hand question her sincerity, I'm just on a different page.
I've seen far too much pain inflicted on Vietnam Vets.
I can't buy the 'bashing' angle. I am not entirely fond of Kerry's new political identity, but he was accused of 'bashing' the troops when he was younger because he mentioned war crimes. The National Archives has loads of documentation of American war crimes in Vietnam.
Do people think the Nuremberg tribunals were a complete aberration held in a vacuum? I don't know.
There are those that hoped the world would be prepared in the future to address these same issues when they arose.
It is well documented that war crimes have occurred in Iraq. I know Vets who speak of these things passionately and don't feel at all that it is about 'bashing' the troops. I've stood on the sidewalk with Veterans for Peace with an Iraq Vet who held a sign that read "I Killed Innocent Civilians For My Government" Was he 'bashing' our troops?
I guess somebody could think that, but he was just telling the truth.

In closing, whenever I see the word "bash" I get red flags. It is completely nebulous and feels to me like an attempt to shut down dialogue. We can't just stop talking about these issues.
We owe to to future generations to face these issues.

[Demonaut]

103. so very well put, it's the ego feeding as I've always suspected

whether posting about vet issues or her own dramatic escapades, it really was all about her.

[BeHereNow]

125. Something we are all prone to

It's part of the human condition and let's reckon with
the factors of our culture/society that render our
ability to see ourselves clearly, impotent.
I look around and I see a society full of people who have
NO fucking clue who they are.
They are constantly shape shifting to try to feel
comfortable in their own skin.
We are a culture gone mad in consuming "stuff"
because somehow we have come to believe that the
next "doo-dad" will fill the hole where a self should be.
I believe the behavior to extend and apply to the
internet culture.
I will put on this outfit for this web site and that outfit
for another because when I wear my latest pyschological
purchase here, I look FAHbulous, and when I go there,
I will put on the other psychological outfit because they
think I look grand in that one.
I prefer naked at this point.
Take it or leave it, I don't care.
You will always encounter the same person
when you encounter me.
BHN

[FreedomAngel82]

50. Also

how can she say she supports the troops if she goes around and bashes John Kerry? A vietnam veteran? A man who was a trooper and a LT even?
That is not supporting. Republicans go around spewing "support the troops! support the troops! If you don't you're unAmerican!!" Then they turn around and bash John Kerry and Wesley Clark. Two men who proudly served their country. HOW IS THAT SUPPORTING THE TROOPS?! Sorry but anybody who goes around bashing two men who served in the military and then claims to "support the troops" is seen as a big hypocrite to me.

[benburch]

57. She needs to be convinced, not banished.

When we banish people because they take a stance we disagree with, dialog ceases, and you cement the opposing relationship quite completely.

She is wrong about Kerry on this. And she could have been convinced. But now that opportunity has passed.

(Mind you, I am pretty upset with Kerry for conceding the election, but about his bravery under fire I have no doubts whatsoever.)

[Demonaut]

105. she'll be back someday, another incarnation

and you know she'll read these posts. BTY fundrace.org shows no donations from Amanda Kato nor any Kato residing in Georgia.

[benburch]

122. Fundrace doesn't show my contributions either...

Perhaps because I made repeated small (Under $100) contributions?

I know that the total was something like $750.

[JanMichael]

33. Try not to dump on Guy just because he took a call!

Jesus dude, he's been working his ass off for two years trying to stay on commercial airwaves, cut some slack.

Please.

[benburch]

40. Agreed.

Shooting the messenger is not a wise thing for anybody to do.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. Last night was

the first time I've heard Mr. James' show. I enjoyed it. He's got a good show and I hope to listen to him more. If you don't like him very well then that's cool but don't dump him based on the call. I, personally, saw that call of hers as a "poor is me" type of call and being a drama queen. Why call in? Just go away if you don't like a place. You don't have to promote yourself around as being seen as "supporting the troops." That's such a republican thing to do.

[tishaLA]

36. I agree, Walt--done with the show.

If I want to listen to people whose callers belittle Kerry's war medals, I can listen to Hannity or Limbaugh. In this case it's more sickening because it's so fucking duplicitous.

[benburch]

39. She never belittled Kerry's medals on Guy's show!

What Guy knows about her is that she helped him when he needed help, and helped Mari when she needed help and that she has stood up for Veteran's Rights.

No matter what you think of Amanda, you are being totally and completely unfair to project that onto Guy James, one of the most committed Democrats in the country.

I'm not happy with everything that Amanda has said and done, either, but WOW can people turn on somebody quickly here. That's just not right. And it is NOT how we will ever win an election again.

[trumad]

43. NOT how we will ever win an election again. Bullshit!

I hate when I hear that type of shit.

Ask your friend Amanda why she didn't defend Kerry and his purple hearts at that stupid ass copy cat site that she moderates? Ask her that?

She fucking started this bullshit by her dumb ass childish post this AM. Fuck her and fuck the sites that she frolicks in.

[JanMichael]

45. I could give a rats ass about VW. It's dumping on Guy that's idiotic.

Not that you have but some have and that's over the top.

[trumad]

46. muddled folks from a long day

I agree and I'm glad Guy took the call... I wish I would have listened to the show because I would have called in and voiced my opinion....

[benburch]

47. Has it occurred to you that she was trying to manipulate their opinions?

Sometimes you can turn even a rock-hard conservative against Bush if you give in just a little to their rhetoric and then turn it back on them.

There was a bible-thumping born-again I worked with this Fall... By the time I was done with him, I had him convinced that Bush really IS the anti-Christ, and he had Kerry stickers on his car next to the ones for the Christian School. I used entirely scriptural arguments to do this. Now, I never told him I was a Christian. He just assumed. But I do know his Bible better than he does.

So, you pick an issue, like the maltreatment of Vets by Bush, that you know you can get the freepers upset about, and you blend in just enough to have them think you are OK, and then you get them to agree on more and more of the things you say until they wake up one day wishing it were Bush that we had gotten out of a "spider hole" and arrested.

That is what I mean about never winning an election this way. You need to be able tolerate people you can't stand enough to get them to join an uneasy alliance with you in order to win against a tyrant. And Bush *is* a tyrant.

[benburch]

49. And NO, I don't support the way she did this.

She was wrong about that.

But do we ditch a friend for a single error?

Perhaps I am too forgiving?

[trumad]

51. Then explain this...

http://groups.msn.com/FocusGroupNow/_whatsnew.msnw

[benburch]

54. I won't even try. I disagree with it.

But I can coexist and even work with people I disagree with. And I think we have to. People like Amanda can be turned around if you talk them through things rather than casting them out.

[trumad]

56. Look...I just offered two damning pieces of evidence

that this woman has gone to the dark side and continues to diss John Kerry. aww but she's a peach. :eyes:

[benburch]

60. No, I agree with you on the evidence.

But I disagree on the tactics. The right wing disinformation worked on her by playing on her rage over the treatment of military veterans. What can be done in that way can be undone, but not if you banish the person.

As a political animal, I don't see Conservatives and Liberals... I see those who have not been convinced of the truth and those who have. She is the former. If we throw all such people away, our numbers can only diminish as we will only be preaching to ourselves.

[trumad]

64. banish the person? She fucking quit!

You post in the ATA that she's crying because she got banned, but didn't she start this whole shibang by announcing to us bad bad DUers that she's leaving DU?

But you know what really bugs me,,,,, she moderates at a shit hole like ConservativeUnderground.com. and please don't give me this crap that she's trying to influence them,,,, You can't influence idiots like them..... sheeesh

[benburch]

67. No, she had decided not to quit after that but was Tombstoned.

If we had let her have her rant and cool off, and had used logic and facts on her, she would have probably come around. TS-ing her removed any chance of that.

And yes, you can manipulate such people. They are weak minded or they would not be on The Board That Shall Not Be Named. All you need to do is figure out what angle you can use to manipulate what they call a mind. It's not all that hard to do, and it is essential in Politics.

[trumad]

73. Oh come on

that site is there for one reason...to disrupt DU. Oh so now we learn that she didn't mean what she meant in her AM post.... She was just bluffing... Boy, what a nice way to get your point across...:eyes:

[benburch]

98. That site does not even do a good job of disrupting us, you know...

We do that for ourselves.

And had I known earlier some of what I have learned I would not have been so strident to defend vetwife, but I still would have said that banning her was counterproductive and hasty before asking her to explain herself.

[Violet_Crumble]

145. For dog's sake...she's a mod on a conservative board!

You can be friends with whoever you want, regardless of their political viewpoints. But after that farewell post where she attacked DUers and the fact that she's a mod on a conservative website that spends its time picking over everything said here and attacking DUers, you've got to be joking if you think that DUers who were rightfully pissed off by her behaviour should think all warm and fuzzy about her. People have been tombstoned for much much less than what she was tombstoned for...

The casting out argument could be used on any freeper who posts here, yet they're still tombstoned, and for good reason. What's the deal anyway? She said she was going...now she's gone, and after reading some of what she's said it's good riddance as far as I'm concerned...

Violet...

[eleny]

61. Mike Malloy has also left the Democratic Party

He's made it very clear, for his own reasons, why he left the Party. Do you think that DU should remove the links to his radio program? Should he be shunned and witch hunted by DU members?

I said it earlier and I'll say it again. The tone on this issue has reached The Lord of the Flies level. You even posted in the ATA forum with picture and link when we aren't supposed to be posting links.

You've made your point, trumad. When will you let it go? Isn't there enough blood in the water for you?

[benburch]

65. I'm only still a Democrat because I think the Party can be saved...

And I think Howard Dean has a chance to do it.

Should he fail I will begin trying to get Dennis Kucinich to join the Greens or some other New Left Party and run for President.

[eleny]

69. I feel the same, Ben

I expect a lot from the Party and never expected Dean to be able to make it. But he did and so I'm hanging in there. We have made our expectations clear and they could do nothing but give in to the demands of the grass roots. I'll be supporting individual candidates around the country in the next election. I want to see Party leadership (in Congress) working with Dean before I give one slim dime to the Party itself.

[trumad]

68. No I won't especially when a few are still defending her

and I could care less if she's not a dem... I take great offense with her attitude towards John Kerry and her allowing the idiots at that forum to diss his purple hearts. Not once did she go after the assholes who disparaged JK regarding the medals, etc.

As far as the ATA post... Please note that the link I posted is a legal link and it does not go back to the dumb ass copy cat site... and please note that the pic is not a link to that site either. Perfectly legal in all ways.

[benburch]

76. I'm not so much defending her, as opposing the reaction to her.

She helped people in her time here, and I think that some logic and compassion would have worked wonders in getting her to renounce that other site and their beliefs.

I simply don't think that people with a long history here who have worked for the causes we support here should be cast off so quickly.

[eleny]

80. " No I won't especially when a few are still defending her"

This is an insufferable position. It seems like you're willing to fight until you grind people's chins into the gorund until they give in. If she feels let down by the Party, as Mike Malloy also feels, then I say to let them go their chosen way.

And you can't bully me out of feeling this way on the matter. I didn't have 4 deaths in my family over the past year. Her pain is more than I can possibly imagine. If she's gone over the edge in certain areas and not seeing the DU realistically, then so be it. I wish her well and hope that eventually she can see that it's the Dems and other Progressives who are on the side of the veterans and soldiers. Your fighting with everyone who doesn't stand with you today has gone out of bounds in my book.

This is my last post to you on the matter. Take the last word if you wish. I, as a Dem, will continue to listen to Mike Malloy and wish Amanda and her family well no matter how you feel about her and Mike leaving the Party and talking dirt about it.

[trumad]

86. grind people's chins into the ground

no... she quit, and now she doesn't want to quit... Like I said...she started this scrap with her disparaging post this morning. I'm a vet and I took great offense at her childish broad brush of a forum that I am deeply fond of.

AND then I find out that she's siding with conservatives.

good night

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

144. Did she say anywhere on her swan song thread, that she'd changed her mind?

Or was that just a "personal communication" to benburch?

[benburch]

146. It was in email. Yes. nt

[Lisabtrucking]

111. Yeah, but you wont find Mike Mallory posting on a re pug site. n/t

[tblue37]

143. This is what is on her site now.

MSN Groups Sponsored Links

Republican and GW Bush Supplies
Starting at $1.99. Stickers, clothing, hats, fortune cookies, signs, Bush Cheney 2004 products. Same day shipping. www.victorystore.com

Republican Gear
Huge selection of unique Republican gear. T-shirts, bumper stickers, hats and more. www.cafepress.com

Official RNC Site - Support the GOP
You can work with President Bush and a Republican Congress to fully enact their compassionate conservative agenda. Learn how you... www.rnc.org

"Focus Group Now" used to be an anti-Bush site. Now she is selling pro-Bush stuff. I suggested on another thread that maybe she got tired of being financially desperate and decided to go over to their side because there is more money to be had.

[Violet_Crumble]

149. I think msn controls the ads, not the group itself...

I might be wrong, but I think the ads appear because the mention of certain keywords might trigger them. I don't think the owner of a msn group can pick and choose what ads msn places in the group...

Violet...

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

141. Do you HONESTLY expect that that is what is happening here?

After telling DU to FO, announcing change in party affiliation, and moderating on two RW forums including one that ONLY exists to trash DU, that she's trying to "bend a little" to convert the heathens?

I don't rule ANY possibility out with bizarre people like this, but why would you expect DUers to wrap their minds into the pretzel shapes required to believe something like this?

[FreedomAngel82]

55. Thank a Veteran

for my freedom? What exactly are they freeing me from? Now if it was a WW2 Veteran that's different. :eyes:

[benburch]

63. And when I grew up thats just what we were talking about.

Don't forget the Cold War, though. It required a tremendous sacrifice on the part of many in the military to carry on that holding action for so many years, even as misguided as it often was.

[seabeyond]

66. she did this a couple months ago

everyone was in shock then. we were all wow, really you said that about us. and sure enough we went onto her site and read her words about us. it was her being the christian and all of us, all of us even the christians..........either didnt stand up to the jesus bashing or we were bashing.

k so this happened before

yet even though we were surprised, even though we were the ones being bashed and jeered at on that site, we listened to her, and gave her understadning adn let it go

then this. she did the exact same thing again

how many times, i ask you

[ultraist]

70. oooohhhh,,,isn't THAT interesting.

That's very telling. She draws people in and then accuses them of being disloyal to Christianity or the military. What would be next I wonder? Dirty horrible liberals that we are.

[benburch]

75. I don't like that much either.

And I was unaware she had done this before.

But I still think she could have been saved.

If all we have in this fight are the hardcore Progressives and Liberals, we're gonna lose it.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

107. How do you feel about posting her photos the way she did? Don't

you think it's a little self-promoting?

I started to listen to her tonight and shut her off. It was very self-promoting as well, and frankly, full of bullshit. I have been at DU since November and I have not seen wholesale bashing of vets. Truths, yes about real incidences. I don't think I can embrace those who stormed Fallujah, leaving innocents dead in the streets (using napalm to boot)can you?

[benburch]

117. It certainly was a pity party...

But had it just been that, I would have forgotten totally about it.

[0007]

37. vetwife made her own bed, now she must sleep in it.

Bum rap? Hell no!

"Anybody who has been trashing her today needs to hear her own words. And be ashamed." I disagree!

[seito]

42. Does DU really support the troops?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=1982553

This was the thread that prompted me to join DU.

[Bluebear]

59. Really, I wish you would post that as a separate thread

:)

[seito]

161. Done

Thanks :)

[seabeyond]

71. what a beautiful beautiful thread, thank you

for bringing that up

[Demonaut]

85. and that proves it, thanks Seito

[Demit]

160. thanks for that link. I missed that thread the first time around.

I just spent the last hour reading it. And getting teary-eyed, and feeling grateful to all those who posted. And thinking of my dad, deceased now, who signed up for WWII. And of my Australian uncles who fought in that war and never made it back.

Anyone who thinks they are supporting the troops by supporting this chickenhawk president has got it horribly wrong. They are so mistaken that it is tragic.

[Walt Starr]

62. She just lost me

She said we can;t be polarized. I DIDN'T FUCKING POLARIZE THIS NATION, THOSE ASSHOLES ON THE RIGHT DID. THEY STARTED THE WAR AGAINST ME!!

I'm only fighting it.

She lost me, and so has James.

[benburch]

77. Ok, I understand why her... But why Guy James?

Because he let her have her say?

Like me, Guy would rather let an old friend say her piece even if she is wrong, and takes a long time to turn appreciation into revulsion.

[Walt Starr]

78. He agreed with her about it n/t

[benburch]

81. No, he was making sympathetic sounds.

Or that's how I read it. He was as angry as I was to hear she was tombstoned, because she has supported both of us in the last two years in many different ways, and helped people we care about. Acquaint Guy with the facts (and I've had some education here tonight,myself) and I think you will find he agrees that she should never have gone over there... He only had the same story from her that I started with this morning.

[Walt Starr]

89. My read on it was he was agreeing

that we should not be polarized. I didn't polarize this nation, the Reichwing did for eight years. I don't join hands and sing kumbayah with my mortal enemies.

[benburch]

95. Guy was reacting to her tone of voice more than her words, I think.

If it was hasty to ditch vetwife (and I am beginning to doubt her sincerity as I read more and more of what she has written) it it thrice trebly hasty to ditch Guy for reacting as I did based on just what we had both heard from her in a letter. Understand that until this happened, she has been really wonderful to both of us, and I was totally unaware of her "conversion".

I still do, however, agree that there are people who post on this system who are painting all of our deployed troops as war criminals, and that is just not true. And it is a large part of what I was initially reacting to.

Remember that everybody now in has had their service dates extended to 2030!!! They are George W Bush's slaves now, and he means to have them die for him rather than come home and possibly be upset enough to endanger his precious ass. Some have even been pulled in from civilian life when they thought they were done with the Military for good. They are victims of the Dictator Bush in this whole mess, and lets not lose sight of this.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

109. Until I turned it off, James was agreeing with every word that came

out of her mouth.

[kaitykaity]

74. It sounds like you're close to her and you really care about her.

I'm sorry a friend of yours was hurt, but people here
feel betrayed by her.

I really think that the people who are chumming the water
are so mad because she wasn't who she presented herself to
be. She didn't say, hey, I'm moderating conservative boards
to see if I can get them to come over to our side.

We ban conservatives here. We want to keep them out, and
to find out that she is one of them is just devastating.

I hope you can understand that. If it were really someone
making one bad mistake, I'd be with you. But she's all over
the conservative Internet making fun of us and criticizing
our candidate.

It's one thing to care so deeply about an issue that you
lose perspective about who your real friends are. It's quite
another in this political environment to "frolick" with our
enemies while pretending to be a friend.

I didn't really know her except for the Guy James Show,
and I even feel foolish that when the news of her moderating
those boards came out, I was like no, that's a ringer or
whatever. I couldn't believe it. I felt like a fool when I
found out it was true.

So cut us a little slack, will you?

[benburch]

79. I *do* cut folks slack. I understand how betrayed you feel...

And I'm not happy about her either. But do we sever ties with people because they have drifted away from us, or do we work harder on the relationship to try to set things right?

Obviously, there is a breaking point. But I think we are too quick to reach it here.

[kaitykaity]

82. How can you work on a relationship when you can't trust?

That's the thing. Trust is essential, and she broke
it. We didn't do that.

And once trust is broken, it's very hard if not
impossible to restore. I know that's harsh, but that's
the way it is.

I feel for you.

[benburch]

83. You start from scratch, basically.

And have to develop trust again. It isn't quick or easy.

[kaitykaity]

88. Ain't that the truth.

Well, if she really is sincere, then she has
her work cut out for her. She has a lot of
apologies to make and a lot of groveling to do.

I'm going to trust your judgment, Ben, that she
is sincere in her remorse.

Fair enough?

[benburch]

92. Well, I'm not even certain she is sincere.

But I give anybody a chance.

[kaitykaity]

94. How can you advocate for her without knowing that?

Honest question.

And giving everybody a chance sounds nice in theory,
but she's had her chance and she blew it. She's done
this before.

So I'm confused now. :shrug:

[benburch]

96. Like I say, I have learned quite a bit about her in the last few hours.

Unlike a conservative, I can change my opinions when presented with new facts.

However, I still think we have been much too hasty to judge, and have asked far too few questions.

[kaitykaity]

99. I'm listening to her now.

I'm not sure what to think. Her explanation
sounded reasonable, but I still can't get
past the nasty things she said about Kerry's
medals.

Yeah, things happen when emotions are high. Maybe
if she hadn't been so public with her denunciation
of us, we wouldn't have been so gleeful at her
downfall.

Gawd, what a mess.

So what have you changed your mind about? What
facts got through to you on way or the other?
(Send me a PM if you like, that's fine.)

[benburch]

102. I read some of what she posted on the other board...

and reread her earlier postings here. I confess that I reacted to "People are beating up on vetwife" first, and on the facts second. Vetwife was SO supportive and SO kind to people in the past that I couldn't even consider that she might be seriously on "their" side. Now I am not so sure. I have a hard time reconciling the two different people that I seem to be presented with who share a name and a body.

But I still think we are FAR too quick to cast people out.

[kaitykaity]

106. I'm so sorry, Ben.

Cognitive dissonance is a terrible thing,
isn't it? (Now you know how I felt.)

BeHereNow's post below is a really good
explanation. I'd say it's right on target for
what's been going on with her. "It depends
on the audience."

Check it out.

[BeHereNow]

101. Ben, I understand where you are coming from

I think the important revelation may be that
Vetwife's sincerity and actions shift according to
who the audience is.
I truly believe the motive in her farewell post
was for the benefit of those on the site
that will not be named.
It is what is it is.
When it was in her interest, she posted
here with all sincerity, in support of Mari
and others, BUT I feel now as a way to gain
approval and acceptance, not out of
spirit of selflessness.
At the moment, her sincerity is more effective
directed towards a more approving group.
The point is, from my view, and I have met
MANY people who are prone to this fragility,
is that the actions are not based in what the
actor claims them to be, and are subject to
change according to the audience.
No big deal- I just can never trust those people
again. I don't hate tnem, I just don't give them any credence.
BHN

[Walt Starr]

110. Maybe it's her way of getting support for veterans regardless

Hell, I don't know.

I've read a few threads of hers here, and frankly agreed with them. I've read many of her posts at CU and she really bashed DU over there.

:shrug:

You got me.

[benburch]

115. I do not normally EVER go "over there"

But I had to tonight.

I just wish I knew what to think.

I started out taking her assertion at face value that she was there to defend her friends and Veterans and was making it clear to them that Bush was The Problem. That is just the sort of "outreach" activity we do need to have if we want to have a 65% majority in the polls rather than the 52% we have and which is insufficient to cover election tampering. But I wonder now if she is on either side? Is she playing both DU and "the other guys" for fools?

Walt, I am horribly confused.

[BeHereNow]

119. Like I keep trying to say...

and frankly, I don't think I have said it clearly yet...
it's all about MOTIVE.
What is the MOTIVE behind the actions?
To support troops/help Mari/ defend so-and-so?
OR gain approval.
Methinks the latter.
The issues appear to be a stepping stone to that
and the "sincerity" subject to change based on
pleasing the audience of the moment.
Again, no big deal, just one the flaws of the
human condition.
I have made a concentrated effort in my life
to savagely examine my own motives- for me,
although not always pleasant, the only way to
live my life as my authentic self and not a
"people-pleaser."
BHN

[seabeyond]

124. authentic self

yes

[BeHereNow]

131. Getting to "authentic self" is a BRUTAL process

and not at all encouraged by a corporate/profiteering
run culture designed to discourage and destroy authentic self in order
to increase the demand for "stuff" to fill the hole.
BHN

[seabeyond]

134. ah but once there

freedom. totally and blissfully free

[BeHereNow]

136. And in this society...alone.

BUT not lonely.
I am gleeful most of the time that
not one asshole ever get's in my "door."
Not anymore.
Don't need them.
The last time I had guests was over the
holidaze- NSMA and Misunderestimator
came for dinner and a night of music with my
family. It was fucking fab.
Talk about authentic people...
Nothing else will do at this point in my life.
BHN

[seabeyond]

150. Nothing else will do at this point in my life.

yes i am so with. nice to hear. thank you

[anarchy1999]

155. BHN, this is the first post I've made in this nightmare.

I've supported VetWife and her family for several months in small ways. How many of you here have actually talked with her?

I've not visited a single site mentioned above or in any other posts. I did several months ago warn her off of what she purported herself to be doing and I told her it would end in no good. I begged her to stop.

She and her family seem to be incredibly dysfunctional, but I believed in the good she was trying to do for Vets. I believe she cracked and messed up and she still needs our support. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I think she just fell into the dark side at a very dark time in her and her family's life. If I am wrong, if I am mistaken then please forgive me. I warned her tonight she has skated out onto very, very thin ice and I did not listen to her on Guy James. I just begged her to stop with trying to play both sides again.

I may be the fool, but I and a few others here think she just may have had too much coming down on her and she f'd up. I was harsh with her tonight and I warned her one more time to stop with the other boards. Many months ago I told her the same.

Tonight when I spoke with her, apparently before her speaking with Guy, I told her to stop, to lay low and to see if any of this could be fixed. She was contrite with me and I'm reserving my opinion and I told her so. I don't know what to think right now. So many of those whose opinions I hold dear are saying so many things. I am confused. Did I help someone, or did we get taken for fools? I asked her this, I told her and all she could do was cry. If she went on Guy's program and didn't do right by everyone, I just don't know what to say.

In my conversations with her over the last few months, she and her family have dealt with a tremendous amount of obstacles, nightmares and hardships (were they real?). Was I being lied to and being naive and gullible? I hope not, but it has always been a fault of mine to be so. I hope that she is not what she is being painted to be. If she is, then you all have no idea the pain I feel for having been duped again.

Peace and love to you all.
S

[kaitykaity]

138. Or pharmaceuticals to medicate the empty feeling.

This really is the "getting to God," the I/Thou.

Absolutely right on.

[benburch]

113. I really hate to think that's true.

But I am starting to.

[Solon]

120. Maybe this will convince you...

Look at this thread I found:

http://www.1-2-free-forums.com/mf/americanconserv-about661.html&highlight=

This is her, there is no doubt, take what she said in relation to everyone else in, and see if she is defendable.

[jonnyblitz]

128. she is pathetic. nt

[mr blur]

157. She seems proud that her husband

"punched one longhair down and stomped him."
Nice people.

[seabeyond]

91. trust

actually i just put that out in your post above to me and deleted. i dont care if she is on this board or not. i really dont. i decide what threads to go into and read. but the reality is, i wont trust her. i wont trust a sincerity. probably wouldnt go into her thread, so her being here or not doesnt matter to me

i was one to give her benefit of doubt the last time.

[Demonaut]

87. from the tone of her post and the zeal for her "new found party" thats it

for me...I'm done




















with her

[Disturbed]

84. Let's forgive her 27 times.

She has 25 times left, right? In the meantime someone may want to email her and ask her to stop sliming DU.

[UdoKier]

118. Yeah, I listened. And it was the same hooey she's tried to sell here.

Saying that DUer's have called all the troops Nazis and Baby-killers.


I've never seen anybody directing those accusations at ANYONE who wasn't guilty of them. THey are NEVER blanket accusations, they're in reference to specific soldiers who have done illegal and/ evil things. Some of our men ins Vietnam WERE rapists and babykillers. Most were not, but SOME OF THEM WERE. Same goes with Iraq.

And I'm sick of being exhorted by the likes of her to be grateful to a bunch of men I don't know for doing something I DON'T WANT THEM TO BE DOING.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

147. Even though she replied to some of the posters on her swan song thread,

she wouldn't respond to those asking for links to any threads where these alleged offenses occurred.

[DemBones DemBones]

158. In life, you run into some crazies, people who pretend to be

your friend while bad-mouthing you behind your back. Amanda Kato has revealed herself to be one of those.

[Unforgiven]

159. Well

after reviewing this soap opera, I have concluded that this woman is naive as hell or we ALL have been played like violins.


And for an earlier post:

Maybe we could put up a sister site and call it independent underground for the squeamish!