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skippythwndrdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:08 AM
Original message
I'm sick and tired of this crap.
I feel that we've lost direction and purpose. No longer are we the party of freedom. We are now only the "we oppose anything that George Bush says" party. I'm sick of it. I want my party of ideas back. Sure, not all the ideas were good, but we at least presented them, and tried to work for a better future. Now, we are disjointed, unorganized, and without direction. Being against George Bush is not an agenda. Being against George Bush is not a platform. I want to be more than just a "no" party. I want to present a legitimate alternative, a different vision. Many of us have that, but, as a party, we are not conveying that. I want my party of freedom back.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. you must be talking bout our party 'leaders'
there are PLENTY of ideas on the INTERNET's and even right here, believe it or not.

:hi:

peace
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skippythwndrdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Damn, right, I am.
I want a revolution. An internal party revolution. We need to get ourselves on the local county party committees if we are ever going to change things. Get in from the bottom up.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Oh, well in that case, I'm with you 100% n/t
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. thats all ready begun...
it's still a matter of getting our 'LEADERS' to speak the hell up... good thing we got dean in as head of the DNC :bounce:

peace
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. He's off to a very good start too!
Dean is taking the opposition while beginning to articulate our values.

We need to take the opposition, the days of repuke lite are over!

It's not an either or situation. Opposition is a strategic move and taking it, does not mean we will not articulate our platform.
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caligirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Give Dean a chance, he and 'we' have to work this
from the local level up. We got in such a bad way it will take some time to turn this mega ship around. Don't give up. A lot is being asked to keep the faith but what choices are there? Night Night
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. Well, we do oppose everything George Bush says
because we're the party of freedom as opposed to fascism.

I think what's holding us back is disagreements on strategy and tactics, not so much core values. I say we go with the boldest vision.
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. Me too. Opposition is not a position.
While I believe most Democrats have great ideas and want to change things, it seems that a lot of those in power, in the last election at least, seemed only concerned with showing why Bush was bad, but not offering up much of an alternative.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. yeah... most just said he was doin a POOR job stealing the OIL!
:argh:

peace
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AverageJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. Our organized, unified platform should be
Impeach Bush*, try him for treason and crimes against humanity, put him in jail for life with no possibility of parole in some shithole gulag, and let the Liddy England's of the world do what they will with him.

Doncha think?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. hear, hear!
Edited on Fri Feb-18-05 01:29 AM by bpilgrim
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skippythwndrdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Bad platform.
that is why we currently suck so much. We need to show WHY we are different.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. yawn... As we pause between Shock & Awe
Edited on Fri Feb-18-05 09:59 AM by Skinner
Our long national nightmare of peace and prosperity is finally over
The Onion
January 18, 2001

WASHINGTON, DC Mere days from assuming the presidency and closing the
door on eight years of Bill Clinton, president-elect George W. Bush
assured the nation in a televised address Tuesday that "our long
national nightmare of peace and prosperity is finally over."

Above: President-elect Bush vows that "together, we can
put the triumphs of the recent past behind us."

"My fellow Americans," Bush said, "at long last, we have reached the
end of the dark period in American history that will come to be known
as the Clinton Era, eight long years characterized by unprecedented
economic expansion, a sharp decrease in crime, and sustained peace
overseas. The time has come to put all of that behind us."

Bush swore to do "everything in power" to undo the damage
wrought by Clinton's two terms in office, including selling off the
national parks to developers, going into massive debt to develop
expensive and impractical weapons technologies, and passing sweeping
budget cuts that drive the mentally ill out of hospitals and onto the
street.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. bpilgrim
Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
copyrighted news source
and provide a link
to the source.


Thank you.



DU Moderator
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. moderator
sorry... it was from my inbox and 4 years old i thought it would be ok.

peace
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. I only wish we were the party who opposed everthing George Bush said
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
11. A part of that is the natural product of having every avenue...
Edited on Fri Feb-18-05 01:26 AM by UdoKier
... of legal challenge to this cabal now firmly shut off to us. No fair elections, essentially no media uncompromised by corporate power - there's a kind of resignation to the fact that our reality-based, fact-based way of solving problems CANNOT win out over their pabulum of terror and stroking the egos of the white middle class. People have become accustomed to being told what they want to hear, and until our economy is in utter collapse and/or the entire rest of the world decides to rise up against us, we may be stuck Bushco in power.

WE can propose a new New Deal, and it will immediately be derided as communist, and the sheeple will eat that up. You can rag on us, but if you've got a clear vision that will break through the seamless wall of corporate-republican propaganda that dominates all media - feel free to share it.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
13. hear hear!
Very well said!
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. Welcome to the Whig Party

Long may it ... oh, wait.

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rocktop15 Donating Member (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
17. I rarely refer to Bush anymore
It's not Bush I oppose. It is his ideas and philosophy that I am opposed to personally. The more I read, the less of a Democrat I consider myself. When one uses the term Democrat are they referring to what their perception of a Democrat is or do they find things they have in common with Democratic leaders? I have questioned both of these ideas often in the past few weeks and realize there is a big disconnect in reality between what I think Democrats stand for and the way they actually vote on issues. I don't have much in common with blue blood presidential candidates worth millions who spent time in secret societies.

On the positive, I am really excited to see what Dean will do for the party. The party is definitly at a crossroads now and I believe he'll add a lot to where that road leads.
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
18. I just want an end to the wars, for God's sake!
Is that enough of a message??

I sat there, listening to this maniac and even being stupid and crazy enough to vote for him, and then one day I woke up and realized he was just leading us into war, war, and more war, and that people were DYING! For NOTHING!

I realized there was a party which was dedicated to at least TRYING to stop this evil buffoon, so I came to that party. That's good enough for me!
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. War degrades us all

and the present condition is one of war. Not the physical kind, but a psychological one. The personal has been made the political, in every realm, and that's what gets to us. All of us. The present conflict very much resembles the run-up and breakout and battles of the Civil War, a little more diluted in time but in principle very much the same by dynamics and consequences.

What you miss is the creativity in the public arena which, while rare, did give overt purpose to living in our society when people were less given to open conflict- not that things were any better, really, in facts, though. Well, for one thing the present conflict has gone on for more than two generations- and what Democrats stand for now was what far smaller numbers of people demanded earlier. There are few or no new ideas to add because so much time was spent in hopeless minority that only dreaming and rhetoric and articulating discontents was possible: and that job got done. We are, in a sense, beyond all the arguments now. Fulfillment, which is to say resolution and political power to implement their conclusions, is what remains us. And for that we need to win the battles that remain.

Freedom is different things in different situations. Republicans now stand for freedom in its crude, material/animal, sense- the right to walk away, to deny others what is fair, to take stuff, to live outside the social contract if you have sufficient money (yet exploit the social contract to retain wealth either way). Democrats are having a hard time getting themselves agreed on the alternative, you're right. Somehow, choosing to be the Party of civilization is not enough fun or something.

Creative freedom is what is the Republican kind lacks. Being accepted as part of the social contract without question, but free within its terms and duties and guarantees, that's the basis of life that can be creative and defined by individual growth and being collectively wealthy rather than given to individual selfprotection and socially counterproductive competition to exploit the crumbs left on the table. Creative freedom is not material or animal freedom- it's spiritual freedom exercised, enabled, yielding fruit and hope.

The missing idea, into which all Democratic ideals fold, is of formal equality conceded to members of all groups of Americans. That is, that every group of Americans is dealt with as fairly and seriously and generously as all others. This is politically the idea of real equality before the law and real equality in treatment by government, and the idea of government serving the best interests of all members of society- this, when realized, in turn freeing up people to pursue their hopes and dreams rather than selfprotective measures.

If you look at why Barack Obama's speech to the Democratic Convention worked so well, it was because he told Democrats this was what they really stand for (despite wavering and lack of will/desire in many instances) in both an absolute and in a relative sense. (Absolute because the Party serves the American People by fighting for adaptions to the Modern Age, relative in regard to the Republican and Green etc Parties.) But no one picked up on the central idea, because even he didn't know what that was. In fact, the idea was written out 137 years ago due to outrages occurring in the post-war South...and made part of the Constitution.

14th. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


It's a measure of how far we've all fallen that this ideal, this necessary foundation for the lives we've wanted to lead, is slipping outside peoples' ken and hopes.

But I believe we've reached the point in our conflict that matches to the Civil War's January 1865- when the Union could see the end slowly coming into sight, at last, after a seemingly endless set of setbacks and shortfalls and failures. Our present internal argument is essentially like the one about the 13th Amendment at that time, which was really the argument about whether the North was serious about getting rid of slavery or not. We're seeing the end slowly come into sight too- the analogousness to the Civil War predicts the '06 campaign to control Congress as the Other Side's definitive defeat at Appomattox, btw- and our present argument is also about ensuring that our bloodshed on the battlefields was not in vain.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
21. This is unbelievable
Edited on Fri Feb-18-05 04:24 AM by sandnsea
For the entire last year, many of us said we can't just be against Bush. We have to promote a positive agenda.

But oh fuck no. People right here in this thread said we had to go after Bush, take it to Bush, why aren't we hammering on Bush.

NOW they say they want to be FOR something?????

Fucking idiots. Just way too goddamn many fucking idiots in this country.

This is not directed to you skippy because I don't know anything about you.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. you can say that again
especially if you think that our leadership has been TOUGH on bush :crazy:

and why are you mad at anonymous INTERNET posters instead of the leaders who had to keep all their plans details SECRET because it was 'smart political strategy' that us mouth breathers could never comprehend.

sure, i'll have what she's having ;->

peace
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. FOR: Peace. AGAINST: War. FOR: Truth. AGAINST: A sham
media which is owned/operated by rich, powerful people who LIE to us at every turn, and attempt to turn us against each other in order to divide and conquer. FOR: Enough food for all humans to eat. AGAINST: Giant, greedy, conglomerates who don't care if all humans eat, but just want to accumulate vast amounts of wealth (most of which they don't need in order for THEIR people to survive), just for the sake of accumulating wealth.
FOR: A way of life that is not solely based on driving people to consume, consume, consume. AGAINST: Programs, tax breaks, propaganda, etc., which drive people to consume more than they can afford to, causing those people to burn themselves out in debt, just so a very few can accumulate vast amounts of wealth (most of which they don't need in order for THEIR people to survive.)
FOR: Freedom for each individual. AGAINST: The robbing of freedom from individuals in order for a very few to accumulate vast amounts of power (most of which they don't need in order for THEIR people to survive.)
FOR: An honest dedication to using medicine/science to alleviate suffering, and help people to survive. AGAINST: The use of medicine and drugs solely as a means of PROFIT.
FOR: The use of all resources, tangible and intangible, for the good of actual human beings. AGAINST: The withholding of resources, tangible or intangible, for the purpose of eliminating some people, while building up vast amounts of power/wealth (most of which is superfluous and meaningless) for a small number of individuals.

Am I saying that the powerful few should give up (either voluntarily or involuntarily) some of their wealth and power in order to improve existence for larger numbers of individual human beings? Yes, I guess I am. Does that sound like communist ideology? Yes, I guess it does. Am I in favor of communist ideology for its own sake? No! Because I am in favor of each individual's having power over his/her own fate. That's not a communist tenet.
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