what's wrong with kids buying CDs with swearing in them anyway?

[ButterflyBlood]

i can't see how anyone could think Lieberman or Tipper Gore are right on this when it's not exactly a major problem in anyway (see kephra's Lieberman thread). For example, does the constant swearing in this song nullify the very positive message of it?

Combat Wounded Veteran - You Win, I'm Stupid

I'll defend my choices and beat my head against the wall until the equality of women is no longer an issue. I'll give the middle finger to the boy's club and a fuck you to the conversations that appear whenever the men are alone. How many times can I say, "No, I wouldn't fuck her if given the chance." "No, I wouldn't reduce her to a body and a function and set aside the thoughts and ideas of a living human being." You stupid fuck.

Or for another example, take this song, which probably has enough swearing in it alone to classify for a warning sticker if it were on a major label

Light The Fuse And Run - Ghost Town

we woke up, under the sun and if you had seen half the shit i've seen in this dead, dead ghost town, you wouldn't hestitate to burn these bridges down. this will be the furthest west we've come, and i wonder what the fuck we're on. and tommorow we'll wonder what the fuck we've done. we headed straight on highway 58 to barstow we'll be halfway across the desert before they know. when it's down and we're driving into the sun we'll know exactly what the fuck we've done. this is the furthest west we've gone and by now they know just what went on and i saw what the fuck they're on. we've marked our fucking town, we own your ghost town. we've marked our fucking town, we own your ghost town. i've got a secret: this is a call out, it's in the water, it's in the air. i've got a secret: this is a call out, it's in the water, it's in the air. we woke up, under the gun and if you had seen half the shit i've seen in this dead, dead ghost town, you wouldn't hestitate to burn these bridges down. we've marked our fucking town, we own this ghost town. we've marked our fucking town, we own this ghost town.

you can count how many times fuck appears in that song (I've never bothered), but in the end, is it any worse than anything kids will hear on the playground? and how will some kid hearing this song cause any major problems? with the situation in Iraq and Ashcroft's shredding the Constitution is this in any way a major problem? so why do Tipper and Holy Joe's crusades have an legitimacy to them?

[Dookus]

1. well...

this is one issue I think Tipper and Joe have gotten a bum rap on.

Personally, I find nothing wrong with swearing. Fuck no.

But I'm aware some people do.

Joe and Tipper never tried to censor these records, outlaw them, ban them, change them, or anything else. They asked for stickers to be put on them so parents can decide what their children listen to, which seems very reasonable to me.

Furthermore, it's not the simple swearing that people object to, but more often, the sentiments expressed in the records. While I love hip-hop, I don't know if I'd want my (hypothetical) child listening to a whole lot of "bitches and ho's" before s/he's ready to understand the context better.

[ButterflyBlood]

2. but the second song

in no way expresses any negative sentiment, but it contains enough swearing to alone qualify for a sticker. and the first actually has a very positive message, but the album it's off almost certainly would get a sticker as well. and any parents who think their kid won't hear any swearing if they don't ever get any albums are the most naive parents in the world.

[Dookus]

4. Agreed....

I find nothing wrong with either song.

I'm a 42 year old gay man who is VERY unlikely to have children. I have ranted and raved my whole adult life about infringements upon adults because of "the children". I think porn oughtta be shown on tv. I think male frontal nudity oughtta be as common in movies as female nudity. I think we're a prudish, priggish society.

But I have no objection to voluntary labeling that parents can use to help decide what to expose their kids to. Personally, I would expose my kids to a lot of things other parents wouldn't. But I also respect the rights of parents to decide for themselves. Of course labels aren't the whole story - good parents need to check things out for themselves, whether it's tv shows, movies, books, etc.

[ButterflyBlood]

8. very few kids have their parents buy CDs for them

and the parents not knowing that the kid is listening to the word fuck a lot isn't going to hurt them.

[Dookus]

9. butterfly...

I don't think we (on edit) DISagree on anything essential.

Believe me, I can swear like a trucker with Tourette's, and I learned it all from my mother and grandmother.

I personally think the focus on "swear words" is rather silly. We agree on this.

Where we depart, I think, is that I understand most other parents don't feel the same way I do and it's ok by me if the recording industry voluntarily labels their products.

One of my all-time favorite albums was the first one I ever heard of having a warning sticker: Marianne Faithful's "Broken English".

Believe me, if I had kids, they'd KNOW that album inside and out.

[ButterflyBlood]

12. Lieberman sponsored a bill

that would've REQUIRED stickers and put massive fines on labels that didn't, which could easily bankrupt many indie labels. it's not a voluntary issue to him.

[Dookus]

15. well

then he's a boob.

I was discussing the current system in place.

[ButterflyBlood]

16. he also said that

in some report on the status of the video game rating system that M-rated games should no longer be made as a large percentage of the people playing them are under 17. I guess we should no longer make American Pie type movies either, since they aren't exactly aimed at middle aged adults.

[Ein]

17. We shouldnt make American Pie movies

to save me a goddamn headache! Swear to god.

Other than that, I agree.

Shoot pixels. Say words. It matters none.

[ButterflyBlood]

19. No Lieberman apologists have been able to defend his hypocrisy

in whining about simulated violence but endorsing and enabling actual violence. Shooting pixels and saying words doesn't do anything. Bombing countries does.

[Dookus]

24. Can I make it very clear...

that I'm in NO way a Lieberman apologist.

I was referring to the system currently in place that was advocated by Tipper Gore. If Lieberman has supported mandatory labeling with fines, then he didn't get a bad rap - he got a well-deserved rap.

[tkmorris]

32. Hmm Kinda in between you two

Swearing on a CD per se doesn't faze me. My kids definately hear it all elsewhere anyway, including from me. I think most kids whose parents go overboard to protect them from hearing swear words end up thinking their parents are kinda kooky anyway.

I DO however exert influence over what my kids listen to and watch, up to and including banning material from our house. Swearing doesn't bother me as I've said but other things do. Misogyny for example. Not happening around here.

Having said that though, I hate the concept of labeling. I agree with Keph, it tends to inhibit creativity. Furthermore if our kids are going to listen to it or watch it or eat it or play with it I can GUARANTEE you that I know more about the object in question than they do by the time they get their hands on it. It's true that movies and video games already have labels but it is also true that I have never once paid any attention to them. I have a 15 year old that in the last year has been told she could NOT watch a movie that was rated PG-13, while a month or so before she had watched an NC-17 movie that I had recommended to her. It just goes to show that the decisions of some faceless panel of people are not necessarily going to be ones I agree with. It's MY job to decide what my kids do, not theirs.

Does this make em mad? YOU BET! I can't tell you how many times I've heard phrases like: "That's a stupid rule", or "I know you said I couldn't but I can't understand why so and so gets to do such and such but I can't do this". Or they try to do the verboten at a friends house. I am fortunate in that between my wife and myself we actually CAN watch them 24 hours a day if needs be. I realize that not all parents are so fortunate and in cases like that perhaps the somewhat sketchy nannying provided by a V-chip may help them. It isn't ideal though.

I think the ratings system as is should be scrapped. If you want to educate parents about what a given piece of entertainment contains then by all means do so. Movies already do with that endless series of coded references to "adult situations" and the like that they use to justify the ratings given. Fine, keep the info but dump the rating. Frankly I have a real problem with a group of people that think sex is somehow too awful for kids under 17 to see but thinks an axe buried in someones head while tissue leaks out around it is somehow just fucking peachy keen.

Ya know what else? None of my kids has ever bought a CD that I didn't give the OK on. I tend to be pretty damned liberal in letting them be exposed to things, at least more than most people but I DO have the final word. Some people might think that's anywhere from quaint to abusive but we think it's just parenting.

[Dookus]

36. tkmorris:

if all parents were like you, this would never have become an issue. Congrats on doing such a fine job.

[Terwilliger]

43. Is it ok to put a sticker on a book in the library?

Something by Anais Nin perhaps? **PARENTAL ADVISORY WARNING: adult content**

Something by Mark Twain? **PARENTAL ADVISORY WARNING: adult language**

Let's make sure these books are bur...returned when we find out they're PARENTAL ADVISORY books.

[Dookus]

44. I'll state for the third time......

If you want to discuss issues beyond the recording industry, we certainly can. But this topic does not encompass books, tv, political views, etc.

The views I've expressed are SPECIFIC to the recording industry.

[Terwilliger]

45. I spoke to content, which is very MUCH the topic

If Tipper wanted to do good, she could have pressed the recording industry to police itself and make it stick.

No. She decided to be the mother of other children.

[Dookus]

47. then I'm confused...

I thought what she did was exactly what you proposed: pressed the recording industry to police itself and make it stick.

What am I missing?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. The difference is you can easily open them up and look for

yourself if you are a parent. Not so with packaged media.

[Ein]

3. They are wrong.

I learned all my "curse" words from my grandparents. Beyond that, who is to say what words are curses...

fuck... don't people have to fuck to carry on the race?

ass... don't you have an ass?

shit... don't you shit?

cunt... sounds more appealing than vagina, to me, personally

These people are a symptom of the Democrats moving to the center. You get this kind of bullshit in response.

[ButterflyBlood]

5. I once wrote an essay

on why there is simply nothing wrong with swearing for school, but I use swear words just like everyday words, I don't go out of my way to use them like immature kids, but I don't ever try to avoid them either. they're a normal part of my vocabulary.

[Ein]

7. Good for you...

the whole idea of a "swear" word seems to stem out of stupid ass religious crap.

I'll accept fuck for sex anyday, it isn't any different.

[Dookus]

6. Again...

as I recall, it isn't simply the vocabulary that prompted this. It was the context in which the vulgarisms were used.

One of my all-time favorite artists is Eminem. I think he's a lyrical genius. But if I had a 4-year old, I wouldn't let him listen to it. *shrug*

[ButterflyBlood]

10. No

I can guarantee that Light the Fuse and Run and Combat Wounded Veteran would have stickers if they were on major labels even though they never have anything in a context that would be considered offensive.

System of a Down got stickers even though they have a pretty political, mostly anti-war message. Nothing offensive there, but I suppose we must protect all kids from hearing the word fuck. Which everyone knows they'll never hear if they never hear these CDs.

[Dookus]

11. I don't...

think that was the argument: that children will never hear swear words if they don't listen to CD's.

I liken it to the movie rating system, which I have no objection to. It's a simple, voluntary measure that helps parents decide, lacking any other information, what may be appropriate for THEIR kids.

[ButterflyBlood]

14. well putting Eminem and System of a Down in the same category

is pretty riduculous. I can see why someone would be offended by Eminem and not SOAD.

by the way, which is worse, kids hearing the world fuck on TV, or kids viewing FAUX's propaganda?

[Dookus]

23. arrggghhh....

can we discuss ONE issue at a time?

We're discussing vulgarity in recordings. Whether it's better/worse than right-wing propaganda is a different discussion altogether, and I've never indicated that the worst thing that could happen to a child was hearing the word "fuck".

Now tell me... do you support labeling Eminem records?

[ButterflyBlood]

27. any parent who already isn't aware of his lyrical content

is pretty ignorant and thus not aware of what their kid is listening to.

[Dookus]

29. I agree entirely....

I guarantee most parents of kids listening to Eminem haven't listened to him. My parents never listened my music, either.

The labels are there to help ignorant parents.

[Ein]

13. Why not?

Exactly what does Eminem have to say (and I've heard alot of it, against my own protest) that is so bad?

Killing his wife? Well our country kills whole families, as do most other industrial countries?

And what is a swear word? Why is fuck bad and sex not? Ass and not Butt? I just don't get it... It seems to be another dumb socieital standard.

[Dookus]

18. Because...

children have less knowledge about the world, less context in which to place things, and less understanding of situational appropriateness.

I swear like a mothertrucker. But I don't do it in meetings with clients, for instance. That's inappropriate. I don't use that language when visiting elderly aunts. That's inappropriate.

I'm not gonna argue the silliness over the distinctions between "fuck and sex" and "cunt and vagina". We probably don't disagree THAT much on the issue. I guess we DO disagree on the concept that all vulgarisms are appropriate for all people of all ages at all times. That's simply naive.

Furthermore, I respect the rights of parents who disagree with me to raise their children their way, as long as they're not harming the children. My brother is a fundamentalist christian. His kids do not swear. He does not swear around them. Nor does his wife. That's their choice, not mine.

[Ein]

22. So I guess we agree

It is a stupid societal standard?

[Dookus]

28. only to a degree.

I'll agree that it's an ARBITRARY societal standard. But by calling it stupid, you imply that it's not only acceptable, but almost our duty to violate that societal standard. I disagree with that.

I think we should respect societal standards that don't hurt people. I don't believe (as I did at 18) that shocking people is my raison d'etre. I've come to respect the standards other people have - it's like travelling to a foreign country. I try to learn the customs so as not to offend. And the customs are entirely arbitrary - but so what? A decent person does what he can not to offend those undeserving of offense.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. If they're are a kid and language in various media is the issue

then their fucking parents should fucking decide what their fucking kid can fucking handle so that they are fucking raising them. To fucking DO this, they fucking need the fucking information so that they fucking make informed fucking choices about their fucking kids and their kids'fucking mouths. If only my fucking mother had these fucking tools available, fucking things would be fucking different. Maybe fucking not. I dun fucking no. Fuck it.

:D

[Dookus]

25. *SMOOCH*

er.. I mean... fuckin' *SMOOCH*

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. I find language to be an important issue

Fucking language fucking colors everything from the way you fucking view things to the fucking way you then fucking react to them. Fucking parents need this fucking insight when fucking dealing with their fucking kids.

[Dookus]

37. I agree entirely.

I was a linguistics major in college. EVERY society has "taboo" words, usually centered around fornication and excretion, but not entirely.

Something as universally common as "swear words" can't be simply dismissed as a "stupid societal norm". These words serve a function, believe it or not, and removing the "taboo" will only cause OTHER words to take on that stigma. That's language, folks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Right fucking ON!

[noiretextatique]

56. right on

as fucking usual :thumbsup: and you fucking kill me, as fucking always :* thanks...i fucking need that!

[sandnsea]

21. I'm responsible for my kids' actions

As long as I'm the one that has to pick up the pieces when they fall down, I ought to have the option to make some rules about their behavior. And if those rules include the movies, music and video games they're allowed to have, then that's my right as a parent. It isn't a question about who learned cursing where or how bad the preacher's kid is or anything else. It's about parents trying to do the best job they can and a sticker doesn't seem like alot to ask or much to get in a tizz over.

[ButterflyBlood]

26. your kid's actions won't be seriously affected

by listening to a song with the word fuck in it a lot. watching FAUX would affect them a lot worse.

[Dookus]

30. well...

is that really for you to decide?

[ButterflyBlood]

31. well no but

that doesn't mean we should put labels over every TV show or movie that trashes bush because some freeper parents wouldn't want their kid watching it.

[Dookus]

35. again...

can I ask you to stay on the subject at hand?

If we're discussing labeling political content, we can have that discussion, but that's not what we're talking about now.

I've written more than a few posts that, imho, clarify my position. You and Ein have not responded to them other than to throw out some straw-man, or to try to paint me as a Lieberman apologist.

Do you disagree with the movie rating system?

Do you think Eminem's records should be labeled?

[sandnsea]

34. That's your opinion

Let your kids watch whatever you want, let them have whatever CD they want. It doesn't matter to me. Actually, I have never restricted much of anything my kids have done in that regard. Other parents have. I've got my way, they've got theirs. What's it to you how somebody else raises their kid?

[JVS]

38. It's offensive that the kids even have the money to spend!!!!!

Damn ne'er do wells! :-)

[Dookus]

39. lol...

yer right. THAT'S the crux of the matter. Little fuckin' parasites.

[Terwilliger]

40. I'll grant that business exploits crap music, and peddles it to the masses

but most musicians aren't in on the game that the record industry plays

The government should regulate the bsuiness practices...not criminalize the content of the entertainment

[Dookus]

41. Agreed.

I haven't heard anybody here advocate criminalizing content. Such a proposal would be stupid.

[Terwilliger]

46. labelling that sort of music IS criminalizing it

I might add that the Parental Advisory warning probably helped the violent rap come to prominence

[Dookus]

48. please explain...

how labeling is criminalizing. That's a bizarre argument.

Also, good if it helped vulgar music become popular. I don't give a shit about its ultimate effect on society. I'm only defending the rights of parents to know what's on a CD. Personally, I LIKE vulgar hiphop music.

[leftofthedial]

42. fuck if I know

motherfuckers oughtta say whatever the fuck the motherfuckers want to say.

Just as long as they don't rap or do any of that hip hop shit.

[MrPrax]

50. What's wrong

with the same combines that search out criminals while the same time running the servers that allow illegal porn/music/terrorism...OH OH
While were on the subject...the music is OWNED by the same servers that dish up 'free music'.

Amazing how this free market works

[Dookus]

51. sorry...

I couldn't parse that.

I honestly don't know what you're trying to say.

[DemBones DemBones]

52. Dookus, since you mentioned linguistics and taboos attached to

"swear words," what do you see taking their place in the US now that most swear words are used on TV (even network TV)?

Personally, I think frequent public swearing takes away the effectiveness of the words. When I was a teenager, it was a thrill to know that Doug Clark's Band was radio-speak for the Hot Nuts and to recognize songs that had been "cleaned up" for radio play. The thrill of the forbidden. Where does anyone get that today?

[Dookus]

53. oh...

I have no idea what'll replace the taboo words.

All I know is the vast majority of cultures have taboo words. "Screw" used to be taboo in English... now it's on TV. When "fuck" becomes common, then I imagine another word will take its place. What that word will be, I can't guess.

I suppose it's possible that all our popular vulgarities will become accepted, but then slang terms will be used. Hell, if the kids can't shock their parents with language, then where's the fun?

"Fuck" is a fine old anglo-saxon word that's been around for centuries. I hope it stays "taboo".

[seaglass]

54. My kids first heard swears on the elementary school

bus when they were kindergarteners, so clearly parents cannot protect kids from hearing this language.

I think excessive swearing sounds ignorant and I don't want either of my kids to incorporate swearing into their everyday language. That doesn't mean I can stop them from swearing but I can refrain from promoting it by not buying them music in which every other word is f*ck.

Since I am the parent, I get to choose (with my husband) what is acceptable behavior and what is not.