Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Chomsky Chimes In...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Tafiti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:36 PM
Original message
Chomsky Chimes In...
...from Znet Blogs:

We have a fairly clear idea of what planners want, but what we can expect depends on circumstances, including those we create. That’s what should concern us, not speculating about what we cannot know.


The outcome was a disappointment, but there have been disappointments before. Take 1984, when essentially the same gang of thugs—a little less tilted to the extreme reactionary statist side—won by a 2-1 margin, with about the same percentage of the electoral vote as today. And they were engaged in horrendous atrocities abroad and very harsh and destructive programs for most of the population at home. The world didn’t come to an end. In fact, activism proved quite effective.

I don’t think that the Kerry campaign even tried to include the opinions of most of the population, including those who voted for Kerry. People will vote their class interests when they see some credible political force that might represent those interests. That’s not Kerry or the DLC. There are urban-rural differences, but even greater differences internal to each. We can reach out to people, urban or rural, by taking them and their concerns seriously, trying to understand them, and working to find ways to realize legitimate concerns, without compromising our own principles. The same way we work in, say, liberal academic communities, where there is also vast diversity.

As to fraud, etc. I don’t think it is a major issue, even if true. The election had about the significance of tossing a coin to pick a king. If the coin was slightly biased, that’s unfair, but not the main issue. The much more important point is that the opinions of the majority of the population were excluded from the political arena on major issues. People voted for the imagery concocted by the PR industry. Exit polls reveal that clearly. But to discover whether the imagery is accurate, we have to compare people’s attitudes and beliefs with the actual programs. There’s plenty of interesting and credible evidence on this, and when we investigate it, we discover that people were hopelessly misled. Voters for both candidates assumed, overwhelmingly, that the candidates held their views, which is demonstrably false. In fact, voters recognized that they could not vote on agenda/policies/programs/ideas—about 10% gave that as their reasons—but only on imagery. And in a society based crucially on deceit (what is advertising?), it is quite natural that the political managers and the PR industry will run elections the same way. To repeat, there is overwhelming evidence that the opinions of the majority of the population on major issues were simply off the agenda, either within the political parties or in mainstream discussion, with rare exceptions. That democratic deficit seems to me far more important than the possibility that the coin that was tossed was biased.


Bush won slightly more than 30% of the electorate, Kerry slightly under 30%. I doubt that fraud had much to do with it. That’s about what I personally predicted, if that matters; am collecting some symbolic bets from friends, and even wrote about it a bit, on Znet. It is meaningless. It tells us virtually nothing about the country, just as it would tell us nothing if there had been a slight shift in votes and Kerry had won with a meaningless slight plurality. The important issues are: the opinions of the majority of the population on major issues were off the agenda, people voted for one or another image conducted by the PR salesman, and the images have little to do with reality.



6) Election Responce pt. 6: 1968, 1972 & 2004


The Vietnam war movements were extremely important, but they didn’t displace presidents. Nixon was elected in 68 and 72, the years when the movement finally reached substantial scale. They did affect the war, very significantly, but in other ways. Finger pointing is a waste of time. Understanding what is happening, organizing and acting, are anything but a waste of time. The tasks now are exactly as they were before, and as they would be if a slight shift in votes had shown that the other party’s imagery was more effective in the marketing campaign—which was run at about the level of selling toothpaste, as one would expect in a society where “marketing” is understood to be a massive exercise in deceit, for quite substantial and understandable reasons.


We shouldn’t have paid much attention to the elections in the first place. They can’t be ignored. They take place. But there are much more important things to do, before and now.



7) Electoral Responce pt. 7: How do they do it? Why doesn’t the Left?


The religious right has been organizing for years from the local level and on up—school boards, state representatives, pressure groups, etc. And has done so on a scale that gives some substance to Robertson’s threats to form a third party unless the Republican leadership makes statements of which he approves (and which they will then probably ignore). The progressive left is very substantial in scale, and could be far larger, including the large majority of the population, judging by highly credible public opinion studies that the press scarcely mentions, presumably because they understand that it is much too dangerous to allow people to understand that they are not alone in their views. And it has done important work. But it has not undertaken to create a viable political alternative. Maybe that’s a high priority, maybe not. But those who think it is (I agree) have to work at it every day, not just every four years, at all levels, from local on up, fielding candidates for everything from school boards to Congress and some day beyond, but also in education, organizing, working and acting on issues, etc. It is no use to show up every four years and say “vote for me” in a highly personalized extravaganza, which is what elections have become, given the severe democratic deficit in the country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. "If the Coin was Slightly Biased?"
We're talking about FRAUD, which put EVIL ahead of GOOD.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. We're talking about never being able to vote in ANYone
at any level in the future if this isn't fully addressed.

I certainly buy his argument about Kerry -- but it's not an either/or proposition (and shame on him for imagining it is). In the final analysis, I care a helluva lot less WHO wins than that my vote counts, and ALL our votes count.

And mulling over the fact that Dems have indeed engaged in election fraud in the past, I say this: NO MORE. You either win honest, fair and square, or you don't win at all. NO MORE STOLEN ELECTIONS by anyone. Period.

From now on out I want the MOST essential right and ritual of any democracy held as sacred and inviolable here in the U.S. And I won't take no or maybe for an answer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. As it is today, you can't vote in ANYONE
You can only vote in one of the two major parties candidates.

You can vote FOR one of the other candidates, but they're not getting voted IN to the White House
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. No we're talking about different sides of the same coin...and
it ain't in the pocket of the average American.

Fraud didn't put EVIL ahead of GOOD. Fraud, stupidity, a fascist propoganda machine masquarading as news outlets and societal indifference put FLAGRANTLY EVIL ahead of SLIGHTLY LESS FLAGRANT EVIL.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. IMO, the point is
that while some are saying "Without the vote, all is lost", he is saying it's more important that all viewpoints be represented in the public sphere because votes based on a limited debate are only a choice between "six of one" and "a half dozen of the other"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. I love Chomsky, but he is soooo Left that
Ghandi would have problems measuring up.

He views what the world could be, not what it will be in our lifetimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:40 PM
Original message
Linkety-link?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
central scrutinizer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. here ya go
http://www.zmag.org/

click on the znet link, then the busy blogger link - lots of essays and articles there and it changes every day so you have to poke around.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. Link to the whole thing?
Thanks
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is this guy Nader's Dad?
I could never listen to him. He sounds like William F. Buckley with his hat on backwards.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Soup Bean Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. YES....that's it! The left's Buckley.
BUT.....he's probably correct. America must be rebuilt, and the people that rule it surely don't want it, any more than they want Pat Robertson's constituency telling them what to do.

"The People vs. the Powerful". I really think that's the way it is, and the way it was for most of history, with a few notable lapses that the powerful never stop demonizing. :)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lightbulb Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. Chomsky always sounds like a ghost
speaking about the world wistfully as if he were looking down upon it from a cloud, rather than as a very real and concerned material being. I hope I'm as worldly when I'm dead.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tafiti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think that was the whole thing...
...I went here http://www.axisofjustice.org/ (Tom Morello and Serj Tankian's radio show/website) and it's the 3rd link down under "Breaking News". Never knew about this blog site, but looks pretty interesting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. i admire Chomsky, usually. some leftist, saying systematic ethnic
Edited on Wed Nov-10-04 04:54 PM by nofurylike
cleansing of voter rolls (aka, disenfranchisement) doesn't threaten ALL we (SUPPOSEDLY?!) stand for.


sheesh

equality is everything we MUST fight for with everything in us!



peace!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Soup Bean Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I think he's saying it really doesn't matter at the national level.
I'm not sure I agree with him; I'm still thinking about it. But, I do think his point about local elections and community issues should be given serious thought. The Right was not built overnight. They worked hard to get this monopoly.

I think you have to be close to steal an election. I'm not sure if this one was stolen or not, but 2000 certainly was. Chomsky says it doesn't matter..."flipping a coin"....

I do think it mattered in Gore v. Bush, and I think it mattered this time, too (psychologicall for me, at the very least). But the special interests have the country by the balls, and our "leaders" do what they say to do..."The New Kings".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. i agree with your main point, about communicating. i feel it is time
to state very clearly, though, that nothing else matters if we do not make Equality the foundation of it ALL.


off for now...



peace!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. As usual Chomsky is right on. But, hearing the truth is difficult.
The election was lost because the voters (as differentiated from the majority of the people) preferred illusion to reality.

The illusion of security.

The illusion of "moral values" that says that killing is good and sex is bad.

The illusion that "winning" means body counts.

The illusion that "We're Number One" has more to do with being a bully than being a member of a community of nations.

The illusion that material wealth is a scorecard that measures a nation.

The illusion that George W. Bush has a functioning brain.

The illusion that "moving to the middle" wins elections despite the obvious fallacy of that bit of swill.

The "voter fraud" issue is a sideshow that will go nowhere. Just like "campaign finance reform".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Soup Bean Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. W has a functioning brain.
He simply pretends not to have one at times. He doesn't have "intellectual curiousity", as I've heard it referred to here, but he does have a corporate kill mentality.

Some people buy companies to simply put them out of business and make a profit. Somebody buys them out, puts them on a bigger board, or the government bails them out.

When W said he had "earned political capital" with this election, and that he "intended to spend it" because "it was his style". He told the truth. He's got America in a controlled corporate crash.

Create a fiscal crisis, lower wages and benefits, lay off some employees, create a market where people have to work for lower wages or higher risk (Wal-Mart and the Military).

You know, that's not particularly smart, though, is it? Seems like people would be able to catch on to you.......oh, wait....distract them with Janet Jackson's tits and a bunch of gays. Then say something like "look at the bunny!"....he's home free...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC