Is bush* really stumbling around in public drunk?

[Booberdawg]

I keep seeing references to it here - stumbling down the steps of AF-ONE, dropping Barney, looking disoriented, etc. Is this the usual blowing off steam we do about an obvious nitwit holding office (and stealing), or is there any truth to this? Just wondering. I think his "handlers" would go to great lengths to hide this if it were true. The pretzel incident surely made me wonder - but it "could" have been an accident.

Wassup wit dat?

[Jacobin]

1. They don't have to "hide" it.

The media hides anything embarrassing this idiot does and says.

They even clean up the transcripts of his speeches and CHANGE words to what they think he might have been trying to say.

He looks and acts like a drunk frat boy to me.

[Booberdawg]

2. Not that it would jeopardize this country anyway

He's not making any of the decisions - he's just the front man.

It would certainly harm his image with a lot of his tight ass, holier than thou, repuke support if it could be demonstrated with more certainty that he's drunk on the job.

[pansypoo53219]

16. well

at least the local paper PRINTED the photo of him loosing the dog.
HARD COPY! I got HARD COPY!

[this_side_up]

40. One would think the media

would wake up and realize that they are not doing anyone,
much less themselves - professionally and personally,
including their families - any good by covering up
for this fool.

But the chances of them waking up is nil because they are
all into making the big bucks and believe their chances
are better with the *

How the hell do those assholes live with themselves?

[MODemocrat]

75. Most of the media are so dumbed down it really doesn't matter

They are making themselves look worse and worse by trying to prop up that idiot Whistle Ass.

[bitchkitty]

3. I can tell you without a doubt

that he is drinking, and he never stopped. I may not know much in life, but I know my drunks, and that guy is a drunk. Not a recovering alcoholic, a drunk.

After 9-11, during the press conference with Laura in the Rose Garden, he was toasted. Used the phrase "regime change" 3 times in a sentence, with predictable results.

[OrdinaryTa]

4. The Jury Is Out

I know my drunks too, and all we can say about Bush is that he's clumsy. If he were actually drunk we'd hear about it. It's the sort of thing Jay Leno would use as part of his act.

[JitterbugPerfume]

5. Letterman would.

but I very much doubt that Leno would

[this_side_up]

6. I'd like ideas on how

he put on so much weight in a month. Check out that photo where
he is not wearing the jacket.

Then the dropping the dog photo - what's with his face?
Someone said it looks like the face is separating.

I'm guessing it is high volume fluid retention. Alcohol
causes that. What else does?

[soleft]

10. He did stop running because of his torn calf muscle

that could attribute to weight gain

But you know, the compulsive exercising is one way he may have managed to white knucle himself sober. But if he can't run, he doesn't have that outlet.

[this_side_up]

41. Hmmm I thought

I read that his leg muscle was all healed up? Maybe not.

Still, there are other exercises he could do that would
not mess with the leg.

Weight gain still unexplained. I'll guess the heavy
boozing.

It's time to lose weight! Bring on the coke, crack and
meth.

And that thought makes me wonder if he has ever ordered
the WH doctor to order up a pound of pharmaceutical grade
coke. Or does he just call one of his or daddy's friends?

Where is the Guardian?! Get a move on!

[kysrsoze]

76. He was drunk and fell, thereby tearing his calf muscle

He he!

[InkAddict]

15. Steroids?

eom

[this_side_up]

42. Ooh! roids!!

Excellent thought! Seriously. That would fit in with
his brain damage/dysfunction and nerve damage.

[SharonAnn]

53. That's what I was thinking. Prednisone?

Neurological disease? Myasthenia? Would explain the clumsiness and some of the other stuff.

[InkAddict]

62. Inflammatory response to vaccines?

[Booberdawg]

65. Um... yeah. riiiiight. just an "allergic" reaction

:eyes:

[InkAddict]

74. No, I was suspecting

incomplete SLE? It's more common in women but not uncommon in men either, and both his parents have autoimmune disease (Graves - thyroid)though genetic predisposition of autoimmune diseases has not been proven fact-worthy.

[Zero Gravitas]

89. his weight gain

is ALL MUSCLE MASS
CNN said so
so STOP SAYING THAT!

[Tinoire]

38. Yep- I'm with you ladies

Was married to an adorable alcoholic when I was very young... There is no mistaking that stumbling, fumbling, drunken walk.

But Pickles, she looks like she's drinking too.

[OldSoldier]

81. If you were married to Bush, you'd drink too

Even if he wasn't.

[Tinoire]

114. The mere thought would lead me to drink! :) n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. I agree he slurs his speech, staggers, stumbles

And has alcohol flushes. He's a drunk and he's still drinking.

Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets!>
Visit The Fair & Balanced Cronus Connection

[Booberdawg]

9. I've noticed the flushed face too n/t

[SharonAnn]

54. Flushed face could be Niacin, commonly used by those of us

who are "at that age" where our cholesterol is an issue.

[Cronus Protagonist]

116. Bush taking Niacin? Whiskey, more like.

Niacin doesn't slur your speech, make you lose your place in simple conversations, render one unable to pronounce simple words, cause one to stagger, stumble and literally drop a dog.

No, you can excuse him all you want, but it ain't going to fly here. Remember, he choked on a pretzel and got punched in the face by a couch!

Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets!>

[Booberdawg]

8. I believe he did stop but

if he has started again and is going out in public drunk then it's going to catch up with him eventually. Right-wingers ALWAYS have a habit of going toooo far and it always bites them in the ass eventually.

[Clete]

11. You're right bitchkitty.

I know my drunks too. I was a bartender for ten years, not to mention having a few "drinkers" in the family too and I'm not that prudish about it. I don't think occasional tippling is all that horrible. But, this guy is definitely out of it a lot of the time.

[eleny]

12. I've been wondering about

how different his skin and complexion has changed. His skin looks harder or tougher. It's hard to explain but it's changed his appearance pretty radically. I figure around the time of the pretzel incident, he fell off the wagon and has binges. The other night, my husband looked at the tv screen and commented how the job seems to have taken it's toll. No doubt, something else is at work here, too.

[Clete]

14. The biggest tip off to me is that

sometimes he is sober and rested. Then he can actually speak in complete sentences and make sense as long as you aren't expecting anything too deep to come out of him.

I used to notice this with my customers. Occasionally, when faced with losing a job or spouse, they would go on the wagon and stick to non-alcoholic beverages for awhile. Their personalities changed and their I.Q's rose during that dry period.

Of course, if you are an alcoholic, you can't really stay off permanently without help. This is were AA comes in and has been so successful.

[Dookus]

26. actually....

AA is nowhere near as successful as its members claim. A lot of research puts the AA success rate at about 5%, which is the same rate of "spontaneous remission" in alcoholics. That is, alcoholics who simply stop drinking on their own.

80% of problem drinkers who quit do so on their own, without AA or other support groups.

[Booberdawg]

29. Hi Dookus!

:pals:

[Clete]

30. Well, many of my ex-customers credited AA for saving them, and it is the

most accessible program to the ordinary person. I am sure fancy clinics like Betty Ford also have a success rate, but one thing I did learn about alcoholics or tobaccoholics or anyone who is addicted is that they had to have the desire to be sober and then the humility to seek help or nothing really will work for them.

Also, the dry drunk person doesn't go through the twelve steps, which would have made them face up to their problem and make amends to those they hurt in the process. Therefore dry drunks are not always able to face up to their shortcomings.

Ann Richards, the Governor of Texas before George is also an admitted alcoholic, but she did go through a program (not sure whether it was AA) and there is no doubt she is sober today. Just her quick wit, even at her age in remarkable contrast to W's incoherence.

[Dookus]

31. well...

the idea of "dry drunks" and the necessity of the 12 steps are nonsensical, AA propaganda.

MOST people who quit drinking do so without the help of AA. It's insulting to them to say that they're not "really" sober because they don't follow the tenets of a old Protestant religious group called the Oxford Group.

But my point is that AA is not very successful, as was proposed above.

Oh, and Hi Booberdawgie!

[Clete]

34. Well, what do you consider successful?

Oh and can you back your assertions with figures, a study, a website, something?

[Dookus]

37. Here's...

one site: http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-effectiveness.html
There are plenty of others if you google "AA success rate" or read some of the books out there on the subject.

What's successful? Here's the big dark dirty secret that nobody ever talks about:

NOTHING is successful in the treatment of addiction. Yes, people do quit, but as I said, most do so on their own. We have a multi-billion dollar industry built around addiction and recovery, and so far, nobody has a solution that works better than spontaneous remission.

Religion-based treatment for addiction has about the same success rate as religion-based treatment for homosexuality.

[donco6]

57. Dookus is right.

The AA success rate is wildly exaggerated.

I've known plenty of AA junkies. Those who are really into it believe they are always alcoholics, that without AA they'd be right back into it. They go to endless meetings, conventions, conferences - their whole lives revolve around it. I think it looks a bit cultish to me. I probably wouldn't recommend that particular program to my friends.

[rppper]

83. this whole line of anti AA talk is making my blood.....

....presure rise. OK, i will be the first one to say that AA is not for everyone, but in the same token it is for everyone, as in it is there for everyone, at no cost to anyone who wants to try it. it is meeting with others who have the same problems, the same experiences, and it has a guideline that when followed, seems to produce some good results.

a true alcoholic has a disease...the alcoholic can not just say "oh, i'll just go to the bar and have JUST 1 drink". the addictive personality does not work that way. 1 drink will ALWAYS snowball into 3 or 4 or 8 or 14. perhaps you nay-sayers don't realize this because, thank god, you may not have an addictive personality traits nor understand the disease of addiction. may you never have to.

but addiction does drive people, people who have a lot of sober time under their belt, to drink again and again and again....or use drugs a'la NA....you want to hear the excuse i hear the most from these people when they come back to me for help after 2 or 3 years of sobriety..."i stopped following the program" or "i stopped at step #9...didn't think it applied to me". while i have no hard scientific data to back this up, i do have 3 years of time working with and counceling addicts to share.

AA is a godsend for many people. many AA members will tell you they owe their lives to the 12 steps. is it a perfect system? of course not, but it is an anchor of hope to those who have none. whether or not they succeed in making 20 years or 20 days sober, it is still a victory to the alcoholic nonetheless. for gods sake, the motto is 1 day at a time. AA clearly acknowledges the fact that we are all human and can fall off the wagon. no one is perfect.

i am surprised at how critical you are of AA. have either of you ever attended a meeting? just what program would you recommend to your friends? why do you doubt the existence of a dry drunk? you can tout success rates all you want, but AA is not about success rates, it is about helping yourself to contain or acknowledge the reasons behind your addictions, and hopefully being able to overcome them via the use of structure and a daily regime, which is the key missing element in the lives of addicts. you seem to misunderstand what the disease of addiction is. i would also like to add that the overall effectivness of programs like the betty ford clinic and others like it hover around 20 to 30%...not bad but consider the price of the average rehab starts around 15k dollars and spirals upward...all of the sudden 5% for free doesn't look to bad.

from the A.A. web page....

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/default/en_about.cfm

"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

perhaps you should glance through the site and find out what AA is all about...

[Dookus]

85. First....

I don't think I was being critical of AA. I was pointing out the little-known fact that AA, as well as other recovery programs, are simply not very effective. Many more people quit on their own than through a program.

I question the validity of a "dry-drunk" because there's no scientific evidence to indicate such a thing exists.

And I spent >10 years in AA meetings before I left what I felt was a cult.

But I don't ever discourage other people from doing whatever floats their boats. Congrats on your sobriety.

[rppper]

117. this is not being critical?

"I've known plenty of AA junkies. Those who are really into it believe they are always alcoholics, that without AA they'd be right back into it. They go to endless meetings, conventions, conferences - their whole lives revolve around it. I think it looks a bit cultish to me."

i don't know, just sounded very critical to me. the fact that it helps 5% of the people who attend it, without the use of professional help, is pretty amazing i think. AA was never advertised as a miracle cure. i would be willing to bet that most of those 80% who claim to have recovered on their own got their start in a 12 step program, or borrowed principles from it.

true...i could find no existance of any studies that proved the existance of a dry drunk either, beyond some rare cases of people acting drunk after a short sober period, usually marked by slurred speech and an unsteady walk. quite frankly, NA wasn't exactly my cup of tea either. i never finished all 12 steps. but i did see that it helped people who had no other means.

personally, i find that some selected buhdist priciples, biofeedback and martial arts stretches work wonders for me. if i go to a meeting on my own anymore, it's to open meets. sometimes it's still good to talk about it. the spirit of AA/NA is it's appeal...it makes one feel better to know that they aren't alone...i choose what worked for me. as i said in my first post, it 'aint for everyone, but it's there, and it does work for a lot of people...just exactly how many people comprise that 5%? AA was started in the 30"s...5% over 70 years is a lot of souls.

here is a little cut and paste job from another one of your earlier posts that got the machinery in my head spinning...just food for thought here...your quote as copied....

"What's successful? Here's the big dark dirty secret that nobody ever talks about:
NOTHING is successful in the treatment of addiction."

i had to admit, that statement was 100% correct...you are absolutly right...there is no cure for alcoholism, drug addiction or any addiction for that matter...only intervention and sheer will power can put an addiction on hiatus...you know the saying, i am sure you heard it a thousand times in your 10+ years in AA....once an addict/alcoholic, always an alcoholic/addict.

there is no big, dirty, dark secret there. you're an addict forever. i don't know you, obviously, but i assume you have not picked up a bottle since you stopped. but yet you found a statement that, more or less, is the basic, core aspect of the "cult" you belonged to for 10 years...you will always be powerless over your addiction...aka-nothing is successful...to cure it for good anyhow. it is now and will always be day to day

congratulations on your sobriety too friend...may you have many more years...

edited for spelling errors...and a sentence or two...

[Dookus]

118. ahhh...

that quote wasn't from me. It was somebody who used my name as his subject line.

[rppper]

119. oop...my bad....message still the same

donco---dookus...dammit, i just got off work...need coffee...lol

[Booberdawg]

49. Hi sweetie!!

Ya arrogant prick you!!:D

[Dookus]

50. aww...

what a sweet-talker ;)

[Booberdawg]

52. Oh I just missed you

I'll start talkin dirty or tear ya a new asshole on somethin' soon. I promise.:evilgrin:

[bitchkitty]

87. True -

I quit heavy drinking some 10 years back and have only indulged in alcohol on special occasions since then. No more all-nighters, just the occasional cocktail at parties.

[this_side_up]

43. Aha! You nailed

it. The harder and tougher skin!! Another clue that ties
in with the rest of them.

Thanks!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. There are some jobs...

That recovering alcoholics should not do. Anything that is stressful is bad juju for recovering alcoholics or people who say they are. A fact which bodes ill for the possibility of Chimpy hitting the piss again.

Also, it really helps if the recovering alcoholic "keeps it green", i.e., does not get smug and complacent about his disease and the effort needed to maintain and achieve sobriety. But(!), we are talking about the single most smug and complacent organism ever to walk, crawl, slither or ooze on this planet, hence, the chances of him maintaining are somewhere between slim and fuck all.

[49jim]

20. As a

person in recovery, I can tell you from personal experience if you are drinking NA beer you are not considered "sober".All NA beers contain a small amount of alcohol (2%). It has always bothered me that GW considers himself sober and does it without any help. I know that I have to go to regular AA meetings to stay sober. It's worked so far for 4.5 years. I saw a posting yesterday that referenced GW at his "ranch" drinking NA beer....sorry but that doesn't do it!

[Dookus]

86. nope....

for a beer to be considered non-alcoholic, it can't contain more than .5% alcohol - one fourth the amount you cite. Most regular beers contain between 4% and 6% alcohol.

So eight non-alcoholic beers would equal one weak regular beer. I suppose if somebody drinks 24 non-alcoholic beers in a very short period of time, they could get a slight buzz.

[OrdinaryTa]

36. If He's Hitting It ...

If Bush were hitting the sauce again, it would become public knowledge in a flash. He meets with lots of people who would love to rat him out if they smelled booze on his breath. Drunkenness is not the kind of thing that can be kept quiet.

Hello, hello! Here's a truism for people who think Bush fell off the wagon: Drunks are noisy. Bush can no more keep it quiet than Yeltsin did. If Bush were hitting it again, we wouldn't need to speculate about it. We'd know.

[this_side_up]

44. I think it is possible

that he could, (if he is boozing) at this point in time,
have a set schedule and booze only when he knows he won't
be tattled on.

Booze or not, he is physically sick.


I am expecting uncontrolled outbursts of rage. Whether or not
those happen in public or if the wife will be the target.....

OTOH, he was *quite* visibily irritated with the reporters'
questions a couple of weeks ago.

[Zero Gravitas]

90. How would it become public knowledge?

Would CNN report it?

[CoffeePlease1947]

17. Where can I find a picture of Bush dropping his dog?

Anyone got a link?

Mike

[prolesunited]

18. Here's the thread with the pic at the top

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=90528&mesg_id=90528

[wabeewoman]

21. Interestingly enough

my local paper (quoting AP) said that Laura dropped the dog as she was handing it to bush but the pictures show her behind him.

[Booberdawg]

32. Well, that's what I mean

I am biased against bush*, so I would rather believe that he is truly displaying behavior that proves he is a drunk and an asshole. But I would prefer it to be things that can't be easily discredited.

That being said, I don't trust every news source not to try to deflect blame from him onto a convenient scapegoat either, even if it is his wife.

[Vitruvius]

82. For some truly horrible pix of Bu$h* & Pickles, drunk and/or stoned, see

see 'amen1234's post #21 at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=253145

And the drinking and drugging is indeed aging Bu$h* and Pickles fast. Very fast.

By-the-way, they both look pretty wasted in that picture of him dropping that poor dog. Note the pot belly on Bu$h* too.

[EFF BrandyWine]

105. Look at the faces of the children...

poor little dog...having a bastard for a master.

[Booberdawg]

19. There's one here - I saw it today .. or yesterday??

Can't rememer who posted it either. Sorry ...

[pippin]

66. Dropping the dog, falling off the segway etc

here's another link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=254286

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. Here's a pic from this AM

He looks pretty lit to me.

[Gingersnap]

23. brain damaged or drugged?

I agree something does seem to be up with Junior. But I think it would be too risky for him to drink (it would show up on his breath--although Kitty Dukakis got away with it, right?) when he has to be out in public. Excessive cocaine use causes brain damage, particularly facial tics, which Bush seems to have (anyone seen Brian Wilson lately? a drug casualty).

But he does seem clumsier lately, so I think he is using something--possibly pills because they are more discrete. valium? Vicodin? That's my guess. Then maybe he drinks at night at the ranch to unwind and in these morning pictures is hung over and refried.

[maxanne]

24. The gin blossoms

sure are screaming. And what's he wearing? His pants and jacket do not belong together.

His new midsection might be caused by his liver swelling - it's obvious looking at his face that his internal organs are breaking down - he's got that puffy look.

I know drunks. Hell I am one. He's still boozing, I'd bet my life savings on it.

[Booberdawg]

28. What's the matter with his pants and jacket together?

They look fine to me??:shrug:

[maxanne]

33. au contraire

Booberdawg - we do not wear black pants with a brown jacket. eeeuuuww.

[Booberdawg]

51. Well black pants with a brown jacket sounds fine to me

but it looked like BLUE pants to me????

[maxanne]

69. either way

it's just plain wrong, Booberdawg. Trust me, I'm an officer of the fashion police. ;-)

[RecoveringAsshole]

79. What's wrong with my brown jacket with black pants??

I wear them all the time!! :evilfrown:

[maxanne]

80. now that you know

who you are emulating in the world of fashion, you still have to ask what's wrong?

[diamond14]

71. shrub bloated out (pic)....looks real unhealthy here....

[Booberdawg]

25. He just looks stupid to me.

That's what I mean. It's hard to know whether to take the rumors seriously or not. His face looks a little blotchy but I wear bifocals and he's too far away for me to see very well - I'd go for the morning after - maybe.

I've always felt he has some kind of a speech impediment - not that I would hold that against anyone but knowing his "give a shit, arrogant" attitude it's one of the reasons I can't stand to listen to HIM! (Cause it convinces me he's just reading off of a prompter and cares not what he's saying to people he believes are sheep anyway)

I dunno - I'd like to see some convincing evidence. I missed the news conference after the blackout where people thought he seemed disoriented, but I'll take your word for it if you say so.

[no_arbusto]

55. I agree

For some reason, I was thinking today about the scene in the movie "Casino" where the gaming commission guy is talking to Ace Rothstein (Deniro) about firing his dimwitted nephew from the casino and the implications it might have on Ace (Deniro) getting his gaming license. Does anyone remember this movie and this scene? Anyway the guy says to Ace, "We both know that the boy is as useless as tits on a bull. But it would really help YOUR situation alot if you helped him out." I couldn't help but think that maybe Poppy has had this conversation with a few people. Am I nuts? I think I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the guy.

[Booberdawg]

59. I don't feel sorry for him

and I doubt I ever will. He just has never displayed any kind of human humility that would ever convince me to feel sorry for him. I do believe there ARE some people beyond redemption.

I saw Casino but it was so long ago I don't remember that scene. But I don't think bush* was ever meant to be useful beyond regurgitating the messages handed to him.

I'd still like to see more COMPEPELLING evidence that he is drunk at least on an occasional basis. What I see so far can be easily discounted and with little effort.

[Buns_of_Fire]

61. Whenever I almost start feeling sorry for him...

I hit myself in the groin with a bell-peen hammer. Puts everything right back into proper perspectve, it does.

[Booberdawg]

64. LOL!

There MUST be a better way! :o

Come talk to us first! LOL!

[Mike_from_NoVa]

91. The dimwitted nephew...

was played by John Bloom, aka Joe Bob Briggs. Joe Bob is the best.

[Zech Marquis]

68. what the hell?!!

my god, he lloks like he's wearing a mask or something...is that really HIm?! :wow:

something's not right here, and the one nanosecond I watch of his speech today, he looked even more like shit...he's falling apart healthwise (that your pick f whatever condition, he's just looking godawful)...

[catzies]

73. WHO'S DRESSING HIM?

THAT SUIT IS AWFUL!

[Lisa]

88. he looks like he's mugged the real President and taken his clothes

Even Business Week thinks he looks slovenly.

[Vitruvius]

94. And Pickles looks pretty blasted too.

Birds of a feather...

B/t/w -- that picture of Bu$h* looks a bit like W.C. Fields playing a pResident -- the facial expression & posture are very familiar if you watch old movies...

[Catshrink]

95. Looks like a stooge to me.

but is that insulting Larry, Curly, & Moe?

[CoffeePlease1947]

27. Imagine if it was a women's baby!!

That is scary that he dropped his dog in public like that. I wonder what would have haven't to him if it was baby. I really hope they keep him away from holding babies in the next election. Scary! :scared:

Mike

[prolesunited]

35. No kidding!

You know how on the campaign trail the cheering moms give their babies to the candidates to hold? Well, I certainly wouldn't put a baby in that man's arms.

[Tinoire]

39. Thread from yesterday w/ pictures . Pickles pickled too I think

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=252927&mesg_id=252927

[maxanne]

46. The stepford wife

seems to be having some trouble with her buttons. The zoned out smile is good though. Apparently her colorist is lightening up her hair color, as well. Good idea to avoid the Ronnie Reagan shoe polish hair and wizened face look.

Now, on to Jorge. He looks bad - that flush we call the drunk's "tan." He appears to have a spot of spooge on his jacket, which again may not actually match his trousers. We've seen him in matching suits before - what's up with the separates? Not a good look for him.

[Tinoire]

63. Oooow hiss

Tu es si cruelle! I love it! :)

[maxanne]

70. It's true Tinoire

they bring out my mean streak - and my fashion police citation book!

:evilgrin:

[Tinoire]

77. Me too! You simply beat me to that comment the other day

Bush is looking more and more like a bum. He really needs a new dresser! You know, call in the "Color Magic" guys or even Men's WearHouse but something needs to be done!

You know, you can give a man $3000 shirts all you want but you can't make him carry it off!

$3000 shirts... sheesh. I can't believe we're paying that much for clothes he can't even go to the trouble of coordinating!

If either he or Pickles ever crosses my path, I swear I'll hiss! You know that charming serpent looking hiss that cat's make when they're really displeased :evilgrin:

[maxanne]

78. you know the old saying

you can put lipstick on a pig and call it Lucille - but it's still a pig. :P

All the money in the world doesn't give them taste or style. Panache is out of the question!

[hippiegranny]

93. he needs queer eye for the straight guy

but unless those boys are log cabin repukes, he's assed out.

[webtrainer]

104. 'Men's wearhouse' (LOL) has some good help for the *. . .

on their Guy'd Lines page of their website:
http://www.menswearhouse.com/home_page/guys_guide/gg311_article_template.jsp?dis=94689&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=94689&bmUID=1062558198038

Sample article 'Tie One On...Formal Wear Secrets'

Would the title alone at least get his attention?

[priller]

45. All presidents age pretty rapidly on the job

and I don't see how Dubya would be any different. I could easily be convinced that many of his appearance changes are due to stress. OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised if he's on the bottle from time to time, either.

[DoYouEverWonder]

84. How could W possibly age on the job

When he's always on vacation.

Most presidents age quickly, because it is a 24/7 type job and the responsiblity is overwhelming.

With W, you have someone who still takes an afternoon nap, quits at 5 PM, and has had more vacation time than any other president(including his father).

The changes we are seeing here have nothing to do with job stress. Besides why do you think this is one of the most secretive WH's in history. They've been hiding George's little drinking problem since day one.

My theory is that up until recently he only drank after hours. However, since he lives totally in a bubble now and is out late fund raising a lot, 'after hours' has become anytime he can take a break. That is why he is looking worse and worse, he is drinking more and more. Besides he knows better than anyone that all he is, is the BCF's puppet front man. He knows he's a loser and a fake, so it makes him drink even more.

[this_side_up]

47. He is the male version

of my m-i-l.

In denial alcoholic drug addict with that smug,
condescending, superior attitude.

And she pissed away ALL of her money because none of the
children wanted to put the brakes to her - by having her
declared incompetent.

She's also manic-depressive but does not have the
physical problems * does.

Edited to add from the - on.

[electricmonk]

48. Watch the Paying For War video from CBS

CBS News I-Video

Right at the end * and Laura are walking and he looks like he's drifting sideways, arm swinging way more than a normal person when they walk.

[Booster]

56. AA does work....

I was a real drunk for about 20 years when I was much younger and got caught driving while drunk. My sentence was to pay a fine and attend 16 AA meetings. I absolutely hated those meetings; most of the people had traded one addiction for another, which wasn't half as much fun, and all they talked about was when they were drunk. After 20 years of drinking and 16 AA meetings, I quit cold turkey because I vowed I would never go back to another AA meeting. Every time someone asks me how I quit drinking, I simply say "AA" and let it go at that.

[OrdinaryTa]

60. Trading One Addiction For Another

A lot of people trade one addiction for another. Instead of boozing, for example, they eat compulsively. But to them, that's trading up. When you eat too much you get fat, and there are social and medical costs. But nothing like being a chronic drunk, which is more expensive in every conceivable way. Nobody ever got arrested for fat driving.

Don't like hanging out with the assholes at the AA meetings? Hang out with the assholes at the local saloon! It won't take you long to notice the difference in the quality of your life.

[maxanne]

72. AA isn't

for everyone.

If you really want to change your life, beyond merely putting down booze, it's the place to be. :thumbsup:

Sober 14 years this week, with the help of AA.

[Clete]

92. Thanks Maxanne.

One of my best friends, who has been sober for thirty years, owes it to AA and to this day, she has to go to meetings almost everyday to re-inforce her sobriety or she would fall off the wagon. This is how addicted she is. I know she is rather extreme but one shoe doesn't fit all.

[Dookus]

96. umm....

I never said that nobody is helped by AA.

Clete, however, posted: "Of course, if you are an alcoholic, you can't really stay off permanently without help. This is were AA comes in and has been so successful."

I AM arguing that AA is not "so successful". More problem drinkers quit WITHOUT using AA than with it.

As I said, I'm all for people doing whatever works for them. But it's an insult to all the people who've quit drugs/drinking on their own to call them "dry drunks" because they don't follow a particular religious regimen.

[Clete]

97. An alcoholic is someone who can't stay off it without help.

Now it doesn't have to be AA, but they do need a program to help them stay off. I too, have known drinkers who quit, because they realized they were drinking excessively and undermining their health and livelyhood. These people are not alcoholics, they are people who partook of a lifestyle because it was socially acceptable in their circles, and who realized it wasn't what they wanted to do. Maybe they had some embarrasing incidents happen to them that made them grow up and assess what was happening to them.

It is usually young people who do this for a few years, especially when they are single. Sometimes marriage, sometimes parenthood changes their priorities. With my friend neither of these things changed her priorities. Her small children became enablers covering up for mom when she was lying drunk on the kitchen floor. Her husband left her. Finally her family and friends staged an intervention and her ex-husband threatened to take her children from her to get her into a program. It took a lot of work for her and backsliding, but she made it and she also realized she had to go to AA everyday to stay sober.

Okay, so according to you she substituted one addiction for another, but it doesn't matter as long as she is off the sauce and can lead a productive life and her family can breathe a sigh of relief that they don't have to run around picking up the pieces of her life.

[Dookus]

98. No...

it wasn't me who said it was substituting one addiction for another. That was somebody else.

I do disagree, however, that anybody who quits without a "program" isn't really an addict. Do you have any evidence for that claim?

From what I've read, addicts do in fact quit by themselves with great regularity. It's not easy. It's not frequent. But it's not uncommon.

[Clete]

102. Yes, me for one.

I ran with a wild crowd in my early twenties. By that I mean we were out every night nightclubing and dancing. We all went to work with hangovers the next day. But, when responsibility got thrown my way, where I had to help my parents by taking another job, my wild drinking days were over. I had to meet my responsibilities and I had to be sober. I never knew when in the middle of the night I would have to drive my father to the emergency ward with one of his many heart attacks.

Also, my friends slowed down as well, either getting married and having families. Sometimes they had the families before the marriage, but it stopped the wild nights on the town. I'm sure other people can attest to the same experiences.

[maxanne]

107. thanks Clete

What you describe is really normal in our society. A lot of people go through the party years - but they reach a point - usually around age 25, when it tapers off. Career, family, all that stuff. My best friend is a classic example. She partied with me, throughout our teens and twenties. It never owned her. She has a masters degree, and a retirement account.

It owned me, from the beginning. I had a high tolerance - I could drink way more than other people. I loved it. Booze made me all the things I wasn't - like 5'2", blonde, and cute. I was 6' - gawky, and as uncute as could be. I was an IV drug user by 16, and had sampled all the drugs of the time. I stopped shooting up when I was 18. Booze was the love of my life. Cocaine was a close second. My best friend knew when to stop. I stopped when the booze was gone, when the money was gone - when an external source made me stop. I have no degree, and no retirement account. She partied, occasionally. It was my life's work.

I was physically dependent by the time I stopped. I had withdrawal every morning, and had to go through a cycle of drinking, puking, drinking, puking - till I could keep one down and move forward into the day. My liver was enlarged, my kidneys hurt, and everyone hated me.

Addiction is a special category. I recognize it in W - the childish, grandiose ego, the meanness masquerading as humor, the way he talks - it's all about him - all the time. He never got beyond the party years. He's not a grown up.

[Clete]

108. Oh, me too, I do see it in *.

I mean forty years old to sober up doesn't sound right to me unless he went through a sobriety program. You sound like you had quite a journey. I'm happy to see that you overcame the demons. I hope you didn't do too much damage to your health. Your guardian angel was looking after you to turn you around and back to sobriety. :-)

[Dookus]

110. Sorry...

I should've been clearer.

What type of RESEARCH is there that shows that addiction is defined by the inability to quit without a program? We all have anecdotes.

It's rather convenient for the 12-step industry to define "addiction" as that which only they can help, and that anybody who quits another way wasn't really an addict.

[Clete]

111. Well, honey, all I have are ancedotes.

I was a bartender for ten years, besides my regular job. I didn't have time to drink during that period but I saw a lot of drinking life then. I have had friends that had drinking problems and relatives. Some dealt with it and overcame it and some didn't. Addiction of any kind, I have found out needs a program to help the addict.

The success seems to be dependent on the commitment of the addict. So I'm afraid if you want a scientific study you are going to have to google for it yourself. I am not the person who wants to know. I have answers that are satisfactory to me.

[Dookus]

112. well I asked you...

because you were the one who made the positive assertion that addicts are defined as only those who can quit with the help of a program. I had never heard that assertion before, and thought you might have a reason to believe it other than your own experience.

I've always found that style of argument a bit off-putting:

"All birds are hatched in Nova Scotia"
"oh really? Why do you believe that?"
"Oh look it up yourself... I'm not gonna do your work for you"

[Clete]

113. Oooh, I didn't know I was getting tested and graded for making a remark.

Actually there are some studies out there, which attest to what I said or I wouldn't have said it. However, since this thread really isn't about this and since most of the posters on this thread who have been through AA agree with me, I don't think I am wrong, however, I am not going to do your homework for you so Google away. You may want to start with AA itself. I am sure they have stats.

[Dookus]

115. LOL...

ok, thanks for playing.

YOU asked in post 34:

"Well, what do you consider successful?

Oh and can you back your assertions with figures, a study, a website, something?"

To which I responded with a link. So YOU can ask me to back up my assertions, but I'm not entitled to ask you?

(sigh)

[maxanne]

106. AA is not religious

if it were, I'd be out the door. I'm as big a heathen as you're likely to find.

Dookus - some people who are abstinent without recovery are dry drunks. Not all - but some of them. They're still the same kind of asshole they were drunk - they just aren't drunk anymore.

[Dookus]

109. well...

What is the medical/scientific evidence for a condition you call "dry drunk"? There is none.

It's AA's way of saying that addicts who recover without "a higher power" are somehow less sober than 12-step adherents. It's a type of snobbery.

If your point is simply that there are assholes in the world, whether they drink or not, then I won't argue with that. But the whole concept of "dry drunk" is founded on nothing but AA-er's sense of superiority.

And we can argue ad infinitum whether a program that requires a reliance on God to end the addiction is religious or not. I believe it is, plainly. AA's history as an offshoot of the Oxford Group also reinforces that belief.

Perhaps we should a different thread? This is getting a big off-topic.

[Athletic Grrl]

101. Clete, you make an interesting point...

There could conceivably be levels of addiction. My husband is 12 years sober this month, the first half achieved with constant AA meetings. He may go now when he's really stressed or something, but he's kind of grown away from it.

Other people like * can just walk away, while others need those daily meetings after 40 years. I personally know a couple who fit this category. I guess one has to do whatever works for them. If that's AA, fine, if it's religion or training to run marathons, fine as well.

[farmboxer]

58. The Republican Media Will Only Hide It Or Make Excuses

The media hid the coup of 2000!

[Booberdawg]

67. The media didn't hide it from me!!

:eyes:

[amazona]

99. you can see it for yourself on many taped events

The slurred speech about "rolling blackouts" during the recent Northeast crisis was a nice example. He's dropped everything from the Segway to the dog. He is an admitted alcoholic, and trust me, the only way his handlers could stop an alcoholic from drinking when he wants to drink is at gunpoint -- and I don't believe the Secret Service would tolerate that.

This guy is drunker in public than Gerald Ford or Boris Yeltsin. Powerful people don't play by the rules of normal polite behavior.

Just watch his nose get red sometime.

[jumptheshadow]

100. He's out of it

I don't necessarily believe it's alcohol. I think he's on more than one psychotropic drug. That accounts for his weight gain and his dipsy speech patterns.

During that press conference before the war he looked like he was in la-la land.

[Davis_X_Machina]

103. He could be drinking a quart of...

...bourbon a day and there are still 50 million people who will vote for him. Half of them won't hold it against them, and the other half will tell you it's a good thing.

Why?

Take your pick.

A. He is the Lord's chosen instrument. God will take care of him.
B. It's only drinking, it isn't like it's sex or anything.
C. It's a sign that he's an ordinary person, not somebody who thinks he's better than us.
D. Drunkenness is manly.
E. His advisors run everything anyway, so it doesn't matter.
F. He's no drunker than I am, and I function fine.
G. Look, over there! It's Clinton's dick!

Welcome to America.

[MrPrax]

120. Yup

He drops a dog for Gawd Sakes and got attacked by a Pretzel