Bin Laden's message repeated...again, no one hears.

[DebJ]

His message is very consistent with his other speeches. Has anyone in this country READ any of them?
Certainly not Anderson Cooper on 360, who said last night that we never attacked the Muslims...and Bin Laden clearly, again, identified the American-Israeli coalition attacking Palestine.

In this new tape, Bin Laden is repeating himself,saying the same thing, which NOT A SINGLE REPUBLICAN seems aware of, and not many dems either:

We attacked you because you attacked us in Palestine.
Leave us alone and we will leave you alone.
THE MESSAGE: they are fighting DEFENSIVELY, not offensively.

He also reiterated that he does not wish to take down our freedoms, but simply protect the freedom of the Palestinians.

How come no one in this country understands this?

I do not support the terrorist attacks; I just think that if the public actually understood what the hell Bin Laden was REALLY after, this entire campaign would have taken a more effective swing. The truth about Bin Laden's motives would have undercut Bush's entire strategy of protecting us. YOU CAN NOT DEFEAT AN ENEMY YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND, not in a war where they are everywhere and can not simply be blown off the face of the earth.

[JanMichael]

1. I heard it

I do not get into the Israeli/Palestinian arguments on the internet--

This is Stephanie, not Michael, btw--

I have never, will never understand the creation of Israel, and America's involvement in a nasty real estate transaction.

[agingdem]

2. Never understood the creation of Israel?!!!

Throughout history Jews have been persecuted, exiled, tortured, gassed, cremated...Israel has a right to exist!

[getoffmytrain]

3. Never understood the creation of Israel?

You obviously haven't met many Jews who did some time in a concentration camp.

[Thtwudbeme]

4. This is in response to both of the people

who responded to my post...and this is Stephanie again, under my own name instead of my husband's--

The Holocaust was the single most disgusting event recorded by photography in our lifetimes. Any written words used to describe what we know happened are lame compared to the horror that we can see in front of us when we look at newsreels and photos.

Am I clear about my feelings on that?

However, carving a nation from other people's land was NOT the answer...wronging other people could not possibly make up for the horrific loss of life that the Nazi's caused-

I have read, and am currently re-reading the Old Testament--and I very much understand the Covenant with Yaweh, and the Davidic line, and the feeling of the Jews about the formation of Israel of a nation.

In my opinion, and I am just as much entitled to my opinion of the OT as anyone---God is not, and was not a real estate agent, and I do not believe that He had a "chosen" people.

Stephanie

[Selwynn]

5. I COMPLETELY AGREE - and we're probably the only two :)

But its nice to know I have an ally.

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. I agree. We could have worked out a better situation to benefit

both the Israelis and the Palestinians. And we absolutely have to rectify the situation. No more bombs on buses. No more pregnant Palestinian women dying in the road because they couldn't get permission to pass through the checkpoint to get to medical assistance.

[babylonsister]

6. Good for you, Stephanie.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and yours is a lot more informed than mine. All I know is our alliance with Israel has caused a heck of a lot of problems for us, but I don't even suggest I have an answer to this that would work, as Israelis are also entitled to their land and beliefs.:shrug:

[JanMichael]

7. Entitled to land? How so?

They are no more "entitled" to land than the Palestinians--

(actually, my husband is a Socialist, and can't stand the subject of land entitlement...pray to Yaweh he stays off this thread)

I believe everyone is entitled to their beliefs...right up until you move your home onto someone else's property....or start killing people.

[getoffmytrain]

10. Get off Indian land.... go back to Europe... you don't have

a right to exist here.

PS. We can debate all day long whose land it is/was... further, virtually every nation in the history of the world was forged through 'the land of others'.

The fact of the matter is, Israel is here and it's not going anywhere.

[DebJ]

14. yep...suppose UN told the USA to give California to Natives, now

just move and give up everything.

[Selwynn]

20. That doesn't make it right.

PS - give me some money and I'll "go back to europe" just as soon as I possibly can.

[blindpig]

16. what a clear, concise statement

of my opinion on this matter. And what a moral quagmire! I can see no end to this mess unless the religious nuts of all parties are effectively emasculated and discredited. That and perhaps providing the Palestinian people with a geographically contiguous state.
I'm not holding my breath.

[PassingFair]

22. Agree...

Jews should have been given huge chunk of Germany after WW2 as reparations. The Rhine Valley would have been nice. Beats Gaza.
Leave that desert land to the Palestinians.

[theophilus]

8. What if the nations of "old Europe" got together and somehow

gave the Cherokee back their native lands and enforced it militarily. The local citizens in Tennessee and North Carolina would be "Palestinians". How would that go over? Just because the Bible talks about the "promised land" is no reason for outside parties to get involved. God can do it if it needs to be done and God's work is not this untidy (See the teachings of Jesus not the O.T. stuff, that is why it is called "old" it is no longer in effect.) The Jews rejected God and his Messiah (a Jew) so their claims on the real estate are null and void. I don't want to get in a flame war but the concept of enforcing Israel is at least debatable, especially as being done now.)

edited for some spelling...

[immoderate]

11. Old means "no longer in effect"?

So how old are you? How long before you are "no longer in effect"?

Thanks for highlighting the close relationship between religion and insanity.

By birth, and by choice of breakfast food, I am Jewish, but I have eschewed the superstition part. I philosophically oppose establishment of theocratic states. Therefore I am not a Zionist.

I guess I could pass as a gnostic Christian, as I believe in most of what is attributed to Christ, if he existed, but leave out the magic.

What I see though, is Christians talking about peace and then killing everybody, including each other. But that's not unique.
--IMM

[Thtwudbeme]

15. Exactly

nt

[KoKo]

9. I agree that as a country we've not looked at BinLaden or his motives

carefully. There have been some excellent discussions about this on DU in the past. The ones that didn't devolve into flame wars, that is.

If this is BinLaden on these tapes, then it I agree with you that the wording has been consistent. They don't want our presence in their lands. Other Presidents tried to bring the Palestinians and Isreal together in some kind of peace agreement, it was only when Bush II stopped trying that we were attacked.

No one really wants to talk about it in a constructive way, because loyalty to Israel always obstructs any way to compromise. :-(

[Cleita]

12. Possession is 9/10th of the law or so they say.

Although Palestine shouldn't have been awarded to Israel by outside powers when that happened, nothing can be done now to change that like we non-native Americans can't go back to the land of our ancestors to give it back to the natives, nor can we accomplish this in Hawaii or Alaska as well.

What Israel has to do is give the Palestinians equal status to the Israelis. I have read that Palestinians struggle for enough water while looking over to lush lawns and swimming pools in Israeli neighborhoods. They need to work out a solution to bring back the Palestinians living now for generations in exile, or if they don't want Palestinians as neighbors, they need to give them their own autonomous homeland.

Oh yes and both enemies need to get rid of their war hawk leaders, Arafat and Sharon, and put their support behind leaders who can go to the negotiating table and work out a permanent solution that will satisfy both sides.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. It's not just Osama saying thiis, but most of the middle east.

The question of justice for the Palestinians and an equable settlement of that problem is the key to the whole middle-east conflict. A question that politicians of both parties avoid touching for fear of electoral consequences.

As long as we blindly favor Israel the conflict(s) will continue with no solution to be had.

Zionism and Arab Nationalism are the two sides of the same coin. We support both tyrannical Arab governments and the Zionists who play off each other to maintain power.

All for the sake of oil.

[sangh0]

17. Does any murderer ever say "I started it"???

Claiming "self-defense" is not unusual in these circumstances, just as it's not unusual to see criminals use legitimate greivances to excuse their crimes. However, it's clear that OBL wants more than being left alone.

He wants a theocratic regime to rule the entire Arab world. The last thing he wants is for Arabs to be able to choose anything other than what he wants.

[sandnsea]

18. They want Israel gone

If that isn't factored into the debate, then people aren't being honest about it. Jews ought to be able to have a teeny sliver of land in their religious homeland. I guarantee if the Palestinians were given a state tomorrow, the Arab world would come up with some other reason to start attacking Israel. Not to say a peace process shouldn't go forward or Israel is always right, but people who refuse to see both sides are just as guilty.

[KG]

19. of course america will never understand

this country was founded on land theft and genocide, and proud of it.

[Laughing Mirror]

21. And when the modern mirror of those images is turned back on them

They turn the other way. Hear no evil, see no evil, unless the evil being perpetrated is pointed in their direction.

America has to learn about Blowback, and why it's happening to them. If they don't change their policies from within, they will be changed from without.

Will America learn from her mistakes and change her evil ways? Well, I thought that after Vietnam maybe she would. But she didn't.