Mankind soon to move on. War, a violent way to solve things, will soon be

[opihimoimoi]

gone. Counterproductive and wasteful, war will go the way of the buggy, the 8 track, slavery, stoning, aparthied, bigotry, colonalism, etc down the vortex of history never to be seen again until warlike ETs venture our way.

Our precious resources will soon dictate war is too extreme, too wasteful, too out moded. Terrorism will be conquered not by force but by (XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX).

Come, we eat chicken adobo

[bryant69]

1. Bigotry is gone?

That's good news. But I kind of miss the 8 track.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ewagner]

2. Just a question....

In all of recorded history, has war ever put an end to terrorism?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

10. Not to my knowledge.

:eyes:

[Maple]

12. "Future Shock," by Alvin Toffler 1970

""The culture shock phenomenon accounts for much of the bewilderment, frustration, and disorientation that plagues Americans in their dealings with other societies. It causes a breakdown in communication, a misreading of reality, an inability to cope. Yet culture shock is relatively mild in comparison with the much more serious malady, future shock. Future shock is the dizzying disorientation brought on by the premature arrival of the future. It may well be the most important disease of tomorrow.

"Future shock will not be found in Index Medicus or in any listing of psychological abnormalities. Yet, unless intelligent steps are taken to combat it, millions of human beings will find themselves increasingly disoriented, progressively incompetent to deal rationally with their environments. The malaise, mass neurosis, irrationality, and free-floating violence already apparent in contemporary life are merely a foretaste of what may lie ahead unless we come to understand and treat this disease.

"Future shock is a time phenomenon, a product of the greatly accelerated rate of change in society. It arises from the superimposition of a new culture on an old one. It is culture shock in one's own society.But its impact is far worse. For most Peace Corps men, in fact most travelers, have the comforting knowledge that the culture they left behind will be there to return to. The victim of future shock does not.

"Now imagine not merely an individual but an entire society, and entire generation - including the weakest, least intelligent, and most irrational members - suddenly transported into this new world. The result is mass disorientation, future shock on a grand scale.
"This is the prospect that man now faces. Change is avalanching upon our heads and most people are grotesquely unprepared to cope with it."

On edit: This should be a reply to the original post.

[ewagner]

14. Great context!

I read that a long time ago but had completely forgotten. Time to dust off the bookshelf!

Thanks for the great context!

[opihimoimoi]

27. Thanks Maple, great stuff there. Good to see it posted

Our culture has not kept up with the techie advances. Flummoxed, confused, fearful, the sheep go for the easy answers most appealing to them. The Pysops Pubs know and promote this hence their success. But their success does not mean goodness for the masses, it just means more wealth and power for them.

Come, we go sushi bar, eat, drink, smile, laugh.

[sierrak9s]

34. Depends

on what you consider "terrorism."
I'd argue that Nazi Germany's treatment of Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc. was a form of terrorism. Similarly, Nazi Germany engaged in terrorism against the civilian population of the Soviet Union.
In the same general time frame, Imperial Japan's treatment of Chinese civilians could be described as terrorism.

Alternatively, if you only wanted to focus on non-state actors, then we have less to work with, since traditionally the "litmus test" of a state is a monopoly of force, so states tend to suppress such non-state actors that use force to accomplish their goals. But do not despair! There are a few examples.

Terrorism in Support of Slavery -- "Bleeding Kansas" and other attacks
Kansas was first organized as a territory in 1854. Abolitionist forces attempted to colonize the Territory; pro-slavery forces from Missouri instead attempted to achieve their goals by violence and intimidation. In 1855, the pro-slavery forces actually drove away abolitionist voters at the point of the bayonet. All told, some two hundred settlers were killed and many more lost their homes in "Bleeding Kansas," where the violence continued through 1860. Elsewhere, John Brown's efforts to raise a private army and lead a slave rebellion results in the 1859 attack on Harper's Ferry. The Civil War put an end to the terrorism of both sides.

The Philippines
At the close of the Spanish American War, the Philippine people expected a grateful United States to grant them independence. When that dream was crushed, the former Philippine military vanished into the jungles and began a three-year guerrilla campaign against American military and Philippine civilians alike. Both sides engaged in indiscriminate terror attacks against the other side's supposed sympathizers. Only overwhelming American military force finally ended the campaign, and sporadic attacks continued for another ten years after the main war ended.

The Boxer Rebellion
The Secret Society of Harmonious Fists began as a group rebelling against the Chinese Emperor. Their mission quickly changed, and they focused instead on driving out the "foreign devils" from the Middle Kingdom. The Boxers attacked Christian missions and slaughtered missionaries and Chinese converts with equal zeal. Only the arrival of several thousand international troops, which sacked the Forbidden City while fighting the Boxers, stopped the attacks.

These were just off the top of my head; I'm sure there are more.

[wtmusic]

3. Chicken Adobo can banish evil from the world?

Damn that stuff is good!!!

onedit: Making it tonight with tricolor peppers. Mmmmmm...

[ewagner]

35. Hey!

PM the recipe will you?

[Stuckinthebush]

4. That would be nice

But I'm afraid humankind is very flawed when it comes to this issue.

War will be around as long as we are - it may well be the reason we are extinguished.

Sorry for the pessimism - I feel kind of "glass is half empty" today.

[starroute]

17. Not so -- war is a relatively recent invention

Hunter-gatherers don't have wars. Wars, in the sense of large-scale, organized, and officially endorsed violence, only began when people settled down enough to own substantial amounts of property. The sole purpose of war is to beat other people up and take their stuff. If you make that impossible -- or at least make it economically counter-productive -- you will no longer have war.

Violence is a different matter. Human beings, especially young, aggressive males, do have a tendency to get into nasty brawls which often wind up with somebody hurt. And this can make nations more willing to instigate wars -- either became aggressive young males are pushing for it, or because their elders think it would be a good idea to get them out of the way and let them beat up on somebody else for a while. But that sort of aggressiveness isn't the root cause of war, and if economic incentives were removed it wouldn't be sufficient to create wars.

[chesley]

28. Ouch

What do you mean, "make it economically counter-productive". Do we want to go back to a hunter-gatherer society? I would already be dead. These society hav expected life-spans in the 20s or 30s. What is the plan, here? I willing to be convinced/

[Dhalgren]

30. How would you make it impossible?

Wars will just be pared down to "affordable" scale. And there is no concensus on when "war", as defined as violence, group against group, first arose or why. I love a good utopia thread, but ...

[starroute]

36. A few specifics

First, there actually is a fair consensus about when war began and that it is closely associated with settled societies and the accumulation of wealth. For example, there was a sort of proto-Neolithic in Egypt about 13,000 BC, which was characterized by both a previously unprecedented level of material prosperity and a extremely high percentage of violent death. Jericho, one of the worlds first cities, had a massive defensive wall at an extremely early date. The Neolithic wall paintings of Spain often depict groups of people shooting arrows at each other, in contrast with Paleolithic art, which seems to reflect only hunting of animals. Even during the Neolithic, there were long periods characterized by peasants living at a subsistence level who produced no weapons of war.

Neolithic societies sometimes engaged in tribal combat on the level of cattle-stealing or headhunting, but the start of civilization is when war really became big business. From the first pharaoh to the Roman emperors, kings constantly produced monuments depicting their battles, capture and execution of prisoners, and taking of treasure. In the Americas, the Mayan culture was organized around ritualized warfare and the capture and eventual sacrifice of enemies. It seems as though war was an indispensible organizing factor for the emergence of the civilized state.

War and warriors have never been as glorified since as they were during that period. For 2000 years now, peace and peacemakers have had an equal or greater share of praise and respect. If war has continued to exist, it is for reasons of economic advantage and not for purposes of nation-building. Countries fight over such things as resources or access to markets, and they are unlikely to go to war if they don't believe they will come out ahead on the bottom line.

But modern warfare is becoming more and more destructive and more expensive to wage. The losers are likely to find their infrastructure completely demolished, and even the winners may be economically and psychically exhausted for a generation. In economic terms, there were *no* winners in World War II, except for the United States which came in late, saw no fighting on its own soil, and had far fewer losses among its troops than, say, the Russians.

These days, wars continue to be waged primarily by the poorest countries -- those with not much to lose. The weathier countries are happy to stay at peace. Among the great powers, it's only the US that has continued to promote war, and even that only when it can replicate the conditions of World War II -- fight at a distance, limit your commitment of troops, and keep it brief.

Viet Nam violated that set of conditions -- and Viet Nam knocked the US out of its post-World War II position of economic dominance, set off an extended period of inflation and other financial woes, and started a slow erosion of the middle class that has never stopped.

Iraq adds a new factor to the equation, in that it turns out that even if you can fight a war on the cheap, you may be bankrupted by the peace. It's one thing to go in, knock off some tinpot dictator who may be threatening corporate interests, and then leave again. It's quite another to attempt a long-term occupation of a distant country, especially if you have to totally rebuild the local infrastructure before you can profit by it.

The good news about warfare is that it's essentially a rational, highly pragmatic undertaking. Wars aren't fought for idealistic causes or ideological reasons. They're fought for clearcut advantage, and if the potential advantage vanishes -- or is cut back to a point where it doesn't balance the risks -- wars will vanish as well.

[opihimoimoi]

37. well said. The time has come when we see there are NO WINNERS

only whiners who use fear to perpetuate this silly nonsense.

We could be far more comfortable, fat even, than what we have now. But we allow LOLOism to go ebolaesque and spread throughout the land. Ignorance breeds ignorance and this will be the sad story of the Human experiment. We coulda, shoulds, woulda, but didn't.

Come, we pony up, pay the price.

[chesley]

38. As I understand your argument

people only go to war when they have something worth fighting about? so what is your proposal to do something about that?

Also, if you got killed in a head-hunting raid, you were just as dead as if Osama blew you out of your skyscraper, which is no deader than if a daisy-cutter landed on you. More people = more deaths in war. I am just failing to see the moral difference here. Please enlighten me.

[chesley]

40. One thing I forgot

Most towns & cities had wall to protect them from the nomadic shepherds. Those that have nothing generally start war with those that do. People that have enough have no reason to go to war.

Second thing, I am not sure you can justify the statement about wars are not fought for ideological reasons. I've heard it before, but I don't know that it's true. Man is not solely an economic animal, and Marx to the contrary, there are other motivations in human lives than their economic situation, unless they are starving that is.

[diamond14]

47. war and warriors are glorified here in DC....come and see the

glorious war memorials...HUGE edifices...for WWI, Korea, Vietnam, and the NEW unbelievably HUGE and gross monument to WWII...it's really disgusting...there's the glory of the Iwo Jima Memorial, there's glory to every President that LED our Nation to war...some of the BIGGEST monuments are Lincoln, a WAR President...and HONORED for leading us to war...there is not a signal monument to honor any president who ONLY kept the peace...even Clinton is getting hammered for his failure to take us to WAR...that seems to be the gold standard...the GLORIOUS presidential standard..those presidents who take us to WAR are wonderful !!!! and that scares me...here in DC, there are ALWAYS military parades, and on the National Mall, there are always displays of weapons, tanks, planes for all the children to play on along with military stuff geared to young children...there are lots of exhibits in the Smithsonian, on WestPoint, on military weapons, on submarines...all that glory...

and if you look at the entire 'culture' of the military...it's about war and the glory of war...and here in DC, it's everywhere....instead of humbly burying the dead...here at Arlington National Cemetary...there is GLORY if you were a soldier...

I see little glory here for teachers, social workers, poets, scientists, artists, musician....only for warriors and wars...it seems to be an essential part of American culture to keep the war machine rolling...go into any bookstore, and you will find way-too-many books on WAR, all glorifying America's role in WAR...how great it is for America...how right America is to fight wars, how necessary, how very critical to everything...how glorious...

my own father had mounted pictures of his WWII flying crew on the wall, who met every year to glorify their service, as if there was something really GREAT about bombing civilians and destroying the great cities of Europe...if you really want to see GLORY...look at all the cheering that went on during the 'SHOCK AND AWE' fire-bombing of Baghdad....it is really a frightening aspect in America...the GLORY of killing and blowing children's arms off...cheers, cheers, cheers...

and there was little effort made by young potential draftees to stand up and PROTEST the WAR....that saddens me greatly...except for a small number of potential draftees here on DU, who chat, there is little effort being made by young people to change the culture of war...not even music, artwork, not much at all...the WAR culture is here to stay...America loves it's wars...and fights way too many wars and enjoys war, even as we starve our economy, lose our jobs, and watch our schools collapse...gotta have that WAR....

'Old men make war...young men fight war...."

IMHO, the young people are the truest believers in war...totally immersed in their TV violent culture since they were born...and they love it and wallow in it to the MAX....'Clockwork Orange' culture is actually valued in America...don't expect the end of war anytime soon, unless people who are draft-age decide to STAND UP...the primary motives that I read here on DU are only self-serving, not an effort to stop wars, but rather that selfish "well, if they draft ME, I'll leave...or I'll lie and tell them that I am gay...or blah blah"...nothing of a bigger societal or community interest, just a personal selfishness...there's little concern for ending wars, which takes effort...

[chesley]

5. Slavery is still around

in Africa and Eastern Europe. stoning is still around, what about that woman in Nigeria? Colonialism? Isn't that whatthe Palestinians are complaining about in their struggle? The Amish still use buggies. War is still with us, and of all of them will be the last to go. Why? because it's probably what it will take to eliminate the rest of them.

[opihimoimoi]

7. Peace is not an OPTION. It is essential to the sustainabilty of Homo

Sapien Sapien on this Planet.

Only our inabilty to communcate and understand among the differing cultures/tribes/nations stand in the fucking way. Our communication/comprehension "spheres" around our heads needs expansion to include chicken adobo, peace thru cultural exchange, something we reject cause of xenophobia

Come, we drink sencha eat senbei

[bryant69]

11. Racism isn't the only cause of war

What about desire for what other people have? What about conflicts in political ideology (Some forms of Communism, including Stalinist and Maoist, will inevitably lead to a conflict with the Capitalist nations)?

[Arianrhod]

6. I have no reasonable basis for agreeing with you

but I do, anyway.

I believe the Old Order is dissolving, and that what we are witnessing in the "neo"cons is the desperate attempt to hold onto a power that even its wielders sense, on some level, will not last. Mankind is evolving beyond the animal reactions being displayed by these men; one day, we will need them no longer.

Unfortunately, I don't see this happening in less than several hundred years.

[sangh0]

8. Here's a reasonable basus for you

Unlike other wars, when European nations were happy to "help" the occupiers occupy a nation (so that they could "help" themselves to plunder) this time the Europeans objected and continue to refrain from plundering Iraq. The people of Europe are clearly opposed to this invasion.

[Arianrhod]

24. Europe

sangh0 wrote:

"The people of Europe are clearly opposed to this invasion."

Yes. I continue to have high hopes for Europe. Even as they go through their own fires of economic and social turmoil, their goals remain different from those of the American government. They've had a taste of unity, and seem to like it. It remains to be seen whether they can really pull together and work as one, though. The Iraq invasion is an indication that this may not be true, as many EU members are still supporting *'s crusade. Still, the real powers in Europe--Germany, France, and perhaps an England sans Tony Blair--may yet make it happen.

A problem arises, however, under *'s National Strategic Policy of not allowing any nation to approach the US in economic or military power. I've often wondered if he would bomb Germany--indeed, would he bomb England--if he feared that nation was gaining on him? And I say "him", because this is a purely personal power trip on his part, having nothing to do with the genuine interests of the nation. And I say "fear", because that is what this lust for power is really based on.

[newyawker99]

32. Hi Arianrhod!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Hubert Flottz]

9. War is harmful to children and other living things!

They Bitch about the ten commandments in the courthouses, but the Pubbies jump at the chance to break every single one of them! They need to move those out of the courthouse and put them in the cathouse! More Bible thumping Repubs would see them in the cathouse or the clubhouse! Most Repubs don't pay any taxes and the SEC, CIA, DOD, EPA, or the FBI don't bother them, so why would the crooks EVER go to the courthouse?

Come, we go to the courthouse to look for GAWD!

[opihimoimoi]

13. Why is it we deem Peace so IMPOSSIBLE we don't give it a chance

we don't fund it,

we don't work for it,

we don't plan for it, nor implement it/

Peace Corp allocations 40 Mil $

War Dept 40 $ Tril

Who gains, who loses??

Come, we find the money trail will lead to the "arrow makers" and those who support them.

[Hubert Flottz]

21. It will be ALL better when BOOOsh's roadblock to peace gets

to workin'! We'll have everything from the A bomb to the Z bomb by the time BOOOsh gets through buying war trinkets from his Daddy's companies! Carlyle, World Bank and Exxon will have ALL the money soon and there will be no more reason to fight, other than emancipation from the white devil billionaires's sweat shops and prisons!

Come we bend over and kiss our asses goodbye! Kiss Freedom Bye Bye too!

[TSElliott]

15. War and conquering will never cease...

for they are natural events that can be witnessed in nature.

[opihimoimoi]

22. If war is to continue, then our resources are being depleted faster than

ever. Even without wars we humans are eating our way to a major famine. The replenishment factor cannot possibly keep up. With these wars, its exasberated beyond belief. Soon the tractors pulling those plows to feed us will run dry of energy. It will be back to oxen time when one farmer fed 9 people as opposed to the 11,000 he feeds now.

It can all be good but we waste our time, our resources, our energies on fighting each other. Only the clever ETs would want this, that we self extinct through LOLOness and immaturity.

Come, surfs up

[monkeyboy]

16. I love chicken adobo

I have it every Friday night, just before my Eskrima class begins.

[opihimoimoi]

23. Chicken Adobo Diplomacy!! I luv it.

Come, heat up the wok.

[Generic Other]

18. Perhaps those who save lives and work for peace

should refuse to cooperate with those who don't. Want to kill? Go shoot people? Then when you are wounded, heal yourself. Let emergency and medical personnel shake their heads and move on. Let the warmongers shoot and kill each other in a frenzy of bloodlust. Don't help them. Let them die.

Don't buy or sell to them.

Don't let them in your homes.

Shun them.

Don't feed them. Don't pray for them.

They have chosen this path. The general who invades another country, the pilot who drops his bombs in a pre-emptive strike--they are no more to be respected than the teenage gang member who terrorizes his neighborhood with a driveby shooting.

Don't feed their fantasy that they are somehow heroic.

[TSElliott]

19. Don't forget the police...

what good are they anyway? All they do is run around beating and shooting people, I propose that we shun them and never call on them for anything.

[Generic Other]

26. If I was in charge of the asylum

Police wouldn't use guns. They would be peace officers.

And they would help peaceful, law abiding individuals.

[chesley]

29. Are the murderers

burglars, rapists, and just plain malice-filled individuals going to feel the love rolling from these 'peace' officers hearts, fall down on their knees, and cry over their crime? of are they going to be laughing in the bars with their buddies about how they put 3 bullets in that blue-suited clown while he beggged for his life?

[ArkDem]

20. Stoning is still practiced.

.

[opihimoimoi]

25. but it is not the norm. Ignorance, domination, and control allows

for the continuation of these practices. They too will soon be gone from the landscape as nations and their leaders mature.

Where are those schools which offer:

How to prevent Lame Leaders 101

How to create better Leader Filters 101

How to create sustainable Peace 101

How to overcome Ignorance 101

How to think 101

How to deal with bullshit 101

etc etc

Come, we enroll

[Bruce McAuley]

31. War and terrorism will be conquered by chicken adobo!

Even soldiers and terrorists have to eat, but if Mom refuses to cook for the boys playing war games, all conflict will cease.
Damn, that's GOOD chicken adobo!
LOL
:hi:
Bruce

[opihimoimoi]

33. Pork visentes, adobo, and bot bot are but a few of the dishes

America should get used to,

among others. Persian Rice is another, cooked till the undersides are crispy is sooo ono its addictive.

Come, we make luau and eat food from around the world, forget them knives and guns. Eating, drinking is a lot more fun and healthy.

[Terwilliger]

39. I thought I was the pollyanna

:eyes:

opi: they won't stop war until everybody's dead

[tom_paine]

41. Yes, species extinction will put a stop to war

:nuke: :nuke:

[Terwilliger]

43. and that's about it

people who claim tro be peaceful rarely are

You're a Democrat, right? Ever hear of interventionism?

[Generic Other]

45. Even extinction won't stop us

Our machines will continue fighting on after we are gone.

Still, one can dream...

[opihimoimoi]

42. Hey, it took a long time before we realized depotism. slavery, bigotry,

etc was bad. It took ages before we got rid of fantasy to cure our sicknesses;athough it still goes on in small circles of curing by prayer.

It took more than a coons age to reduce littering along the highways, the inefficency of putting out large fires with buckets, and dealing with witches in our midsts. It took man forever to learn of the roundness of Earth.

We CAN MATURE if we go for it. We Can go to the Planetaryt Super Bowl and have giant LUAUS.

What is it, Peace not exciting enough for us?

No adrenelin in Peace?

No Bodies and misery in Peace?

We are so dumb, no wonder we got the Shrub.

Poor voting will get us nowhere real quick.\

Come, join us at the Peace Bar, we sing, dance, eat, forget the whine, give us good wine instead.

[Terwilliger]

44. heh

now you resort to personal attack?

I want you to SHOW me where you think anyone on this planet who's in control of the society they run is interested in Peace? Dennis Kucinich thinks there should be a Department of Peace...to find ways of completely changing the ethics of the planet so war isn't necessary...and everyone thinks he's a kook.

Yep, he is. Man is a warlike animal.

[opihimoimoi]

46. Ter, I am a man of Peace. I DID not attack you or anyone on this board.

All I am saying is we have a small window of opportunity and we not going for it.

Also, Dennis is advocating a Dept of Peace, something I hold dear too for the longest while.

Man Can learn / mature past the war like animal he is today. Our kids depend on it/

[Terwilliger]

48. sorry opi

meant no offense

I sure hope we find the peace you're looking for...but I don't think even my great-great-grandchildren would see that world

[tom_paine]

49. Man can learn, but he/she/us have only a limited amount of cycles to do so

Dark Age
Enlightment
Dark Age
Enlightenment
Dark Age
Enlightenment

Now as we head toward perhaps the final Dark Age, probably within 200 years and maybe a lot sooner, it is key to notice than until we become spacefaring (which is looking quite remote, at least until the next Enlightenment Cycle, if there is one), that we are subject to terrestrial environmental changes.

This Dark Ages, with it's attendant environmental catastrophic dislocation/alteration, combined with the loss of the ability to mitigate it with the downfall of fossil-fuels-based civilization by the end of the 21st Century (The Age of Orwellian Totalitarianism) could put the final kibosh on The Tool-Using Monkey-People of Sol III.

Maybe. maybe not. But it sure isn't looking good considering the cause of simple human freedom and the dignity of common people, which at least here in the Old American Republic looked like we now had that forever, is reverting back to Medevalist attitudes towards "the mob" (and the mob is being dumbed down and deeducating themselves in order to meet this new attitude, both helping and helped along) than it makes my head spin.

1890 here we come.

Can 1590 be far behind?

Maybe.

[G_j]

50. last cycle? last chance?

this planet may be uninhabitable in the near future for humans.
Is there the will to make the changes in time?

....not looking good at this at the moment....


so>>> :-( <<<sad

[opihimoimoi]

51. What we really need is for the ETs to come and scold our asses

into dummying up.

Just what would they say???

More than likely they would tell us we are too ignorant to join THEIR CLUB, that the qualifying factor is global Peace and sustainability of the planet. That its a no brainer and if we cannot cope with that notion, much less implement it, then we doom ourselves to a miserable future. The millionaires will not be millaires long as poverty grips us ever deeper into a mega famine.

The ETs(God if you will) will tell us we let greed and selfishness get in the way of a good life, happiness and contentment everywhere.

And while we are close, no cigars yet. The system we are using to guide us, to educate us, to inspire us, to lead us to the giant Luau, depends on good voting. Something we haven't mastered quite yet.... as evidenced by the selection of the Shrub.

No, we are close but the war factor, the greed, etc etc stifles us.

Come, we greet the ETs