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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 10:57 PM
Original message
Waco: Rules Of Engagement ** STARTING NOW encoreTrue
Thursday 8-27-03
12 Midnight Eastern Time

I haven't seen this documentary since an ACLU screening in LA when it was released. It is VERY powerful. It's starting right now on ENCORETrue in case you get it - and have never seen it (or want to see it again).. Shows the trampling of civil liberties by the FBI, ATF, U.S. Army in a most disgusting incident. You don't have to even sympathize with the Davidian's beliefs to see the blatant violation of civil rights, Hard to believe it happened in America.

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Room101 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Waco- was a complete violation of the "POSSE COMITATUS ACT
and the worst slaughter of american citizens by the federal goverement, since the Wounded Knee Massacre of 1890. The more a learn about waco the more mad and scared I get.
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kick - For those wanting to catch it from the beginning
Though you can get in an hor later and be totally repulsed.
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Melsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent film, and very engrossing
My husband watched this a year or so ago on tv. I wasn't going to watch it, but I went in to talk to him for a second and I couldn't stop watching it! I couldn't believe the stupidity and arrogance of the government. It made me really sad that it happened under a democratic president.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. And it was all so unnecessary
Koresh was no saint, and his followers could have left before things got bad, but he could have been arrested on one of his trips into town if the feds really had warrants out.

That whole incident has always looked to me like a bunch of cowboy law enforcement officers wanting to play Alamo, with themselves in the Santa Ana role. And I have believed that since the time that the siege was going on.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. For those of us
that do not have cable, could you pleae give a little synopsis of the program?
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Roger Ebert Review
I picked a good liberal Democrat....



Like many news-drenched Americans, I paid only casual attention to the standoff at Waco, Texas, between the Branch Davidians and two agencies of the federal government. I came away with the vague impression that the ``cult,'' as it was always styled, was a group of gun-toting crackpots, that they killed several U.S. agents, refused to negotiate and finally shot themselves and burned down their ``compound'' after the feds tried to end the siege peacefully with tear gas.

Watching William Gazecki's remarkable documentary ``Waco: The Rules of Engagement,'' I am more inclined to use the words ``religion'' than ``cult,'' and ``church center'' than ``compound.'' Yes, the Branch Davidians had some strange beliefs, but no weirder than those held by many other religions. And it is pretty clear, on the basis of this film, that the original raid was staged as a publicity stunt, and the final raid was a government riot--a tragedy caused by uniformed boys with toys.

Of course I am aware that ``Waco'' argues its point of view, and that there is no doubt another case to be made. What is remarkable, watching the film, is to realize that the federal case has not been made. Evidence has been ``lost,'' files and reports have ``disappeared,'' tapes have been returned blank, participants have not testified and the ``crime scene,'' as a Texas Ranger indignantly testifies, was not preserved for investigation, but razed to the ground by the FBI--presumably to destroy evidence.

The film is persuasive because:

1. It presents testimony from both sides, and shies away from cheap shots. We feel we are seeing a fair attempt to deal with facts.

2. Those who attack the government are not simply lawyers for the Branch Davidians or muckraking authors (although they are represented) but also solid middle-American types like the county sheriff, the district Texas Rangers, the FBI photographer on the scene, and the man who developed and patented some of the equipment used by the FBI itself to film devastating footage that appears to show its agents firing into the buildings--even though the FBI insists it did not fire a single shot.

3. The eyes of the witnesses. We all have built-in truth detectors, and although it is certainly possible for us to be deceived, there is a human instinct that is hard to fool. Those who argue against the government in this film seem to be telling the truth, and their eyes seem to reflect inner visions of what they believe happened, or saw happen. Most of the government defenders, including an FBI spokesman and Attorney General Janet Reno, seem to be following rehearsed scripts and repeating cant phrases. Reno comes across particularly badly: Either she was misled by the FBI and her aides, or she was completely out of touch with what was happening.

If the film is to be believed, the Branch Davidians were a harmless if controversial group of religious zealots, their beliefs stretching back many decades, who were singled out for attention by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for offenses, real or contrived, involving the possession of firearms--which is far from illegal in Texas. The ATF hoped by raiding the group to repair its tarnished image. And when four of its agents, and several Davidians, were killed in a misguided raid, they played cover-up and turned the case over to the FBI, which mishandled it even more spectacularly.

What is clear, no matter which side you believe, is that during the final deadly FBI raid on the buildings, a toxic and flammable gas was pumped into the compound even though women and children were inside. ``Tear gas'' sounds innocent, but this type of gas could undergo a chemical transformation into cyanide, and there is a pitiful shot of an 8-year-old child's body bent double, backward, by the muscular contractions caused by cyanide.

What comes through strongly is the sense that the attackers were ``boys with toys.'' The film says many of the troops were thrilled to get their hands on real tanks. Some of the law-enforcement types were itching to ``stop standing around.'' One SWAT team member boasts he is ``honed to kill.'' Nancy Sinatra's ``These Boots Are Made for Walking'' was blasted over loudspeakers to deprive those inside of sleep (the memory of that harebrained operation must still fill the agents with shame).

When the time came, on April 19, 1993, the agents were apparently ready to rock 'n' roll. Heat-sensitive films taken by the FBI and interpreted by experts seem to show FBI agents firing into the compound, firing on an escape route after the fires were started, and deliberately operating on the side of the compound hidden from the view of the press. No evidence is presented that those inside started fires or shot themselves. Although many dead Davidians were indeed found with gunshot wounds, all of the bullets and other evidence has been impounded by the FBI.

Whatever happened at Waco, these facts remain: It is not against the law to hold irregular religious beliefs. It is not illegal to hold and trade firearms. It is legal to defend your own home against armed assault, if that assault is illegal. It is impossible to see this film without reflecting that the federal government, from the top down, treated the Branch Davidians as if those rights did not apply.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. excellent post
dispelled some myths
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Thank you so much for posting
that review, Jason.

About a month or so ago, I saw a segment on Dateline (I think) about the children that survived Waco ten years later. Video was shown of the tank and shots hitting the compound from the outside.

I thought to myself, how could anyone do that, when they knew children were inside. Towards the end of the segment, a man in uniform sat in front of the surviving children as they asked him questions.

Wiping away tears, he apologized and said that what had been done to their home was wrong. I agree w/that uniformed man, what happened at Waco was very wrong.

I do think "uniformed boys w/toys" when I think of...
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Section_43 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. This documentary was the most disturbing
and disgusting thing I have ever watched. Right up there with the Kent State massacre. If you question and sometimes hate your govt, this will seal the deal.

It is gut wrenching.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
10. AWESOME! And what PERFECT timing! Thanks.
Watching this now.

Peace
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. kick this......as offbeat as it is........
:kick:
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