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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 01:57 PM
Original message
OSWALD was CIA -- (OFFICIAL)
Lo! Check out what Prison Planet discovered: The official CIA memo admitting Lee Harvey Oswald worked for the CIA.



Source:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2004/1609...

This ain't no fake.

I didn't think I'd live to see the day.
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow!
I mean it's what we knew but still - right there in black and white!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I've been crying since I saw it.
My country. My country.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Dunno, Steph.
I'm working on getting the specs. Too emotional at present to be worth much. Thought you and DU needed to know ASAFP.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Okay, thanks
Please explain to the youngsters what is so incredible about finding this out. They might not realize the import.
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Lefty_the_Right Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. See my post about the JFK dvd
EOM
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
45. Why THIS matters.
November 22, 1963 is the day President John F. Kennedy died. He was proud to be a Liberal Democrat in the tradition of the Democratic Party of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and President Harry S Truman.

These leaders were statesmen, who believed in using the powers of government to make ours a better nation for ALL Americans. Liberal Democrats believe in the Constitution where it says:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

There were 1,036 days from Jan. 20, 1961 to November 22, 1963. Thats 24,864 hours or 1,491,840 minutes or 89,510,400 seconds.

The periods been called the thousand days of Camelot. Really just a blink of an eye, for America it means more than that. It truly was a legendary time and America truly was a magical place a place where anything was possible.

Consider what President Kennedy worked to achieve: He raised the minimum wage, cut taxes, kept America from nuclear annihilation twice, maintained world peace, set about to bring equal rights for all Americans, got the country to invest in the arts and education, and set out to do the impossible land an American on the Moon and return him safely to the Earth. He did all that in a thousand days.

A thousand days. That is not much time considering how much JFK accomplished. And President Kennedy used each day to make ours a better nation for ALL Americans.

My, how things have changed. Heres a bit of reality programming whats happened in the 14,869 days since November 22, 1963:

Vietnam
Guatemala
Chile
Watergate
October Surprise
El Salvador
Reagan Survives Hinckley and Bush
Voodoo Economics
INSLAW/Promis
Haiti
Iraq-gate / Banca Nazionale del Lavoro arms
BCCI International Money Laundering for Terrorists & Intelligence Community
Savings & Loan scandal in general and Silverado in particular
Iran-contra Guns/Drugs/Martial Law
Gulf War I Glaspie Gives Go-Ahead
Selection 2000 Shreds US Constitution
Tax Cuts for UltraRich
Criminal Justice Department
Suicidal Environmental Policy
ENRON Energy Policy
9-11 Criminal Negligence, at best; Treason, most likely
Illegal Iraq Invasion

Its interesting in reviewing the above list, just how much conservative neo-con corrupt Republican leadership has really been a Contract On America. The list demonstrates there have been puhlenty of business opportunities in the finance, energy, and defense industries; But, that brief listing doesnt sound like its been a good deal for the average American for the past four decades.

And while there have been occasional flashes of the old Democratic magic in the administrations of James Earl Carter and William Jefferson Clinton, the fact of the matter is things havent really been the same since JFKs leadership.

While times may change, one name runs through all the history, the four decades since the JFK administration. Since the very hour of President Kennedys death, and through the list of sinister events and unrelenting nefarity noted above a record of infamy stretching back 40 years, 8 months and 16 days appears the name George Herbert Walker Bush.

Octafish

Here's a relevant thread from 7 August 2004:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Excellent post! Thanks!
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
56. Brilliant post, OF!
:bounce:
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. Thank you Octafish!
I have a picture of Kennedy on my dresser, shaking hands with my Grandpa.

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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
66. More
I was too young (15) and otherwise involved to understand politics or what Kennedy was all about to any extent, but that doesn't mean he didn't affect my life in a profound way, or that his death isn't still a wound I'll carry to my grave, as so many of us who were alive then will.

My good friend Hedda_Foil recommended this now online book to me a year or so ago (also available thru Amazon and elsewhere I think), and it's stunning. I recommend it to EVERYone who is interested in who Kennedy was as a Democratic President, what he stood for, why he inspired a generation (and more), why his assassination STILL matters (on so many levels) and is still incredibly pertinent to the good and future of this country, and perhaps especially why he was assassinated, and by whom (in broad strokes). Hedda asked me to let her know what I thought of the book, and I hadn't gotten past the first few chapters before I called her and said just that: "Now I understand why he had to die."

Farewell America by James Hepburn
http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell00.html

I think Farewell America was written in the early 1970s. Please read it, everyone.

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #66
142. Thanks for the link to the book
Wasn't George H. W. Bush there in Dallas during/for the assassination?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #142
144. See the memorandum in post 11.
Bush claims that he was intransit from Tyler to Dallas on the 22nd. Why was that statement included in the memorandum? Perhaps to provide 'official' cover?

The guy Parrott whom Bush fingers, I think he was actually a local political opponent of Bush's, IIRC. So he manages to include a little character assassination by implicating this guy to get checked out by Hoover's FBI. Fits the Bush MO on campaigning.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. YES! That's where I saw his name before. Thank you!
This time I'll save the JPG of this memo... how many degrees of separation are there now between the Bush crime family and every bad thing that's happened in my life time? Not many.


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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #145
189. Right on. Spot on. The truth won't hurt you.
It's the TRUTH, they really are THE BFEE.
:argh: :nuke: :grr: :puke:
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
99. that really was a great post
...THANK YOU.
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #45
155. Thanks for that. n/t
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #45
161. How beautiful!
I'm speechless.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
175. Outstanding!
Thanks.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
264. I totally agree Octafish!!!


George Herbert Walker Bush is all over everyone of the events mentioned.

You have always been so clear about all this.


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Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
59. Holy shit. My mother worked Pentagon during Kennedy.
She'll want to see this.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #59
146. The COMPLETE Memo
Please let us know what your mom says.

Thanks to 2004 Victory, at Post #125, ...

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #146
188. WHOA! Documented proof of the Oswald-Guy Bannister connection!
Before this, the only proof of the connection I knew of was the 544 Camp Street address stamped on the Fair Play for Cuba flyers Oswald handed out. But there it is in black and white: Bannister was Oswald's case officer from the Chicago FBI office. No wonder he was silenced that very year that this memo was written.

Thanks Octafish!

:kick:
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. How did they get that and how do we know it's real?
What's the background on this?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
174. Not certain. Please see Merlin's post, #169.

The guy's a regular crime-stopper, I tell ya.

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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Is that a Smith Corona or a Royal typewriter?????
:eyes:

Can't wait to hear the bullshit on this one.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. John McCone's secretary called to say she didn't write it.
But she does know the contents are correct.
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skippythwndrdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. If they're gong to post a fake like this
They should use a typewriter. The MS Word "Memorandum" at the top is a dead giveaway.

There are more important issues to pursue that faked documents pertaining to 40 year old events.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Have you heard of
pre-printed letterhead? When I worked for "the goverment" back in the 60's we had letterhead and pre-printed memo blanks with the "to" and "from" also preprinted. What does give me pause, though, is that all pre-printed government forms have the form # and date printed on the bottom and this does not show that. Everything else looks completely compatible with government preprinted forms of the time.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. MS copyrighted the dictionary in 1999.
You're right.

BTW: Here's a nice pair:

The first FBI memo, dated the day of JFK's murder, talks about "Mr. George H.W. Bush" of Zapata Offshore petroleum. Bush ratted out a college Republican. Well whadyaknow?



The second FBI memo, dated a week later, describes what J Edgar Hoover discovered from "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency." Bush said the anti-Castro Cubans had nuthin' to do with it. Um. OK.



Source:

http://www.internetpirate.com/bush.htm

Gee. So, the name "Bush" comes up with the murder of a U.S. President? Must be one lucky family, those Bushes.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
35. Format looks very similar....VERY similar...
...In the first memo it states that HW was proceeding to Dallas and would be there through the 23rd. JFK was murdered on the 22nd. Why was that relevant info if he was just a "businessman"? The only way that is relevant is if....(think about it)

....interesting eh?

This is a crime family the likes of which the United Stated has never seen...

* has to go.....
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
61. And he could never remember where he was on that fateful day.
Would Bush have had any reason to be unhappy with Kennedy given RFK's non-support of the Bay of Pigs and his documented concern about the growing lawlessness of the CIA?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #61
141. Meant JFK, not RFK.
Why Bay of Pigs? I think the Bushes had big sugar interests in Cuba before Castro nationalized the asset. It's not political ideology that motivates a Bush....it's the smell of money.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
210. Zapata could have been of
interest because of the following passage from "Plausible Denial" by Mark Lane, p.332: 'The name Zapata was Bush's good luck charm, symbolic of the two successful operations in his public career as a businessman. While Bush resided in Houston with Barbara and ran Zapata during 1961, the CIA planned the Bay of Pigs invasion. The top secret name given by the CIA to plan for the invasion of Cuba, known only to a select few, was "Operation Zapata"......'vessels from the Navy that he (Prouty) has located at a U.S. Navy storage facility utilized by the military. They were sent to an inactive Naval Base near Elizabeth City, North Carolina where the colors of the U.S. Navy were painted over. Train loads of military equipment were delivered to dockside while ships were being made seaworthy. New names were painted on the ships for their historic mission-the launching of "Operation Zapata". The new names were "Barbara" and "Houston".

Given our knowledge of the bushie today there are a few questions that need answers. Was Bush in the CIA at the of Kennedy's death? What role did he play in the disastrous Bay of Pigs? What did he have to gain if Kennedy was discredited by the failure of the Bay of Pigs? Did he have contact with Oswald?

I read the book long ago but think it gives a good overview of some of the possible conspiracy theories of the time.

VOTE: KERRY/EDWARDS
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
89. Not even Ian Fleming dared dream that an arch-villain could hijack...
... the Government of the United States of America. Until 22 November 1963, it was unthinkable.

PS: Those who say the perpetrators are all dead and forgotten are wrong.



Please check out Post # 11.

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. THAT is an amazing piece of information! The memo also mentions his...
...association with the FBI and the Office of Naval Intelligence, the latter of which appears to have been his "home" agency. If I remember correctly, Banister in New Orleans was a "former" ONI operative. Major John Newman, auther of "The CIA and Oswald", stated that Oswald did indeed have a CIA 201 personnel file.

When reference is made to his participation to the "aerial reconnaisance of China", that is in fact a reference to Oswald's assignment while in the USMC as a radar operator for the U-2 program which flew out of the air base in Atsugi, Japan. Harold Weisberg stated that Oswald had a "crypto" clearance, so it appears that McCone was trying to conceal that fact from Rowley or anyone else that read the memo.

Man...I'd love to read that entire memo!!



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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
91. Absolutely on all counts.
I'd always assumed the U-2 flying out of Japan -- until reading this memo page -- was spying on the Soviets. Of course, I should have considered overflights of Red China, but had not given that any consideration. Japan is perfect location for both. D'oh.

We've had evidence Oswald was OUR spy for a while. Remember how the Dallas PD found a MINOX camera (not MINOX "light meter" as the BFEE turds report) among his belongings? That camera -- very tiny, very expensive, and high-quality -- meant LHO knew how to set a shutter speed and an f-stop while walking 'round the Minsk countryside. Its presence implies the guy probably knew what to point it at.

And speaking of "aerial reconnaisance," what about Oswald getting a "job" on his return from the Soviet Union at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall in Dallas? That place, IIRC, did a lot of "aerial reconnaisance" photo work.
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Lefty_the_Right Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. The supplemental disk of JFK
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 02:21 PM by Lefty_the_Right
Has a documentary, and more memo's than just this one.

If you watch both the documentary and the documentation that it has, along with the other one with Admiral Prouty, you will see that Stone is probably right.

Prouty was sent to Antarctica for two weeks in November 1962 to run security for some diplomats.

If he had been in the States, he would have been in charge of security in Dallas that day.

The character that Donald Sutherland is based on him, and in the interview, he says that he doesn't say anything except what he knows, and he has the documentation to prove it.

It's not that he says he has direct proof, just that when you put it all together, it is pretty obvious that it was an "inside" job.

Jim Garrison was trying to prove that the suspects knew each other, and therefore there was a conspiricy.

The government denied that they ever worked for the CIA, FBI, or had any previous contacts, by disallowing evidence.

We now know that almost every one of them, Ruby, Oswald, Ferry, etc all worked for the government at some point.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. I've always thought that Stone was right -- at least in
broad strokes. Of course, I didn't see it until about a year ago, when I knew a lot more about the whole matter.

Octafish -- I nearly burst into tears reading your subject line. Thanks. Thanks very much.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
48. Sorry. Let's keep our fingers crossed...
There will be no "left" and "right" once the Truth about the BFEE is known. EVERYBODY is going to be mighty sore and interested in Justice.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
192. The rallying point is our U. S. Constitution.
The highly politicized post-Vietnam War officer corps studied the efficacy of military coup in the USA.

Rumsfeld continues with "force transformation" and Revolution in Military Affairs/RMA.

President Clinton was focused upon in this futuristic narative that won awards in the DoD, a future that has it's locus in a post- military coup USA.

Revolution in Political and Military Affairs/RPMA (Oct. 1996-USAF/INSS)
http://www.guerrillacampaign.com/coup.htm
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #192
214. While today's White House & the Pentagon's top civilians are corrupt...
...There's a majority of good people in uniform and government service. They can see the BFEE at work and play as we. At least, that's what keeps me from going insane with all this shit going through my gulliver.

Thanks, bobthedrummer! I agree wholeheartedly about our Constitution. Perhaps we can do what Robert F. Kennedy said about the things good people do in what must be one of the greatest orations of modern times:

Address of Senator Robert F. Kennedy: Day of Affirmation

University of Capetown, South Africa
June 6, 1966

Mr. Chancellor, Mr. Vice Chancellor, Professor Robertson, Mr. Diamond, Mr. Daniel, Ladies and Gentlemen:

I come here this evening because of my deep interest and affection for a land settled by the Dutch in the mid-seventeenth century, then taken over by the British, and at last independent; a land in which the native inhabitants were at first subdued, but relations with whom remain a problem to this day; a land which defined itself on a hostile frontier; a land which has tamed rich natural resources through the energetic application of modern technology; a land which was once the importer of slaves, and now must struggle to wipe out the last traces of that former bondage. I refer, of course, to the United States of America.

SNIP...

There is," said an Italian philosopher, "nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things." Yet this is the measure of the task of your generation and the road is strewn with many dangers.

First is the danger of futility; the belief there is nothing one man or one woman can do against the enormous array of the world's ills -- against misery, against ignorance, or injustice and violence. Yet many of the world's great movements, of thought and action, have flowed from the work of a single man. A young monk began the Protestant reformation, a young general extended an empire from Macedonia to the borders of the earth, and a young woman reclaimed the territory of France. It was a young Italian explorer who discovered the New /world, and 32 year old Thomas Jefferson who proclaimed that all men are created equal. "Give me a place to stand," said Archimedes, "and I will move the world." These men moved the world, and so can we all. Few will have the greatness to bend history; but each of us can work to change a small portion of the events, and in the total of all these acts will be written the history of this generation. Thousands of Peace Corps volunteers are making a difference in the isolated villages and the city slums of dozens of countries. Thousands of unknown men and women in Europe resisted the occupation of the Nazis and many died, but all added to the ultimate strength and freedom of their countries. It is from numberless diverse acts of courage such as these that the belief that human history is thus shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.

"If Athens shall appear great to you," said Pericles, "consider then that her glories were purchased by valiant men, and by men who learned their duty." That is the source of all greatness in all societies, and it is the key to progress in our own time.

CONTINUED...

http://www.rfkmemorial.org/RFK/affirmation2.htm


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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. The font spacing can't be real I, mean please!
:)
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CityZen-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. "I'm Just A Patsy"
Tell me something I don't know! Ozzie was set up and utilized by the Faustian machinations of the Shadow govt. Say it loud and profound Corporate America!
One of the agenda's of JFK prior to his corporate shredding was to dismantle the Federal Reserve! That alone would invite a bullet to say the least.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
278. POPPY was CIA... W's TANG Buddies knew it in 1973!
Check out what Ms. Janet Linke, wife of Smirk's fellow TANG pilot Peter Linke, reported in the story about W's fear of flying:

"We were told his father was very wealthy Texan with CIA connections."

Source:

http://www.legitgov.org/essay_eastman_bush_fear_of_flyi...

She said the year was 1973, when her husband died in a drunken-driving accident.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. Its well known he worked at a U-2 base in Japan. This says nothing more.
This says nothing more than that. All U-2 missions were CIA operated. There is certainly language that hints that they might be concerned with something more than that, but nothing in this seems all that surprising to me.

Big deal, rogue CIA agents working with the mafia and anti-castro cubans, in conjunction with the texas oilmen represented by GHW Bush killed him for flubbing the bay of pigs, thats news? Ooops, I left out the reverse vampires.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Sure it does. Look at the last paragraph.
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 02:34 PM by Minstrel Boy
McCone says Oswald's "defection" was a ruse, and he was on assignment in Minsk.

Not that we didn't know already, but if the doc is genuine, this goes way beyond what has officially been admitted.
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. see my post further down....see John Newman's book
Oswald and the CIA

read that and see if you still feel the same way
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
85. Remember: Oswald worked for Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 10:12 PM by Octafish
That place did printing plus. Seems there's word they also did secret photo work for Uncle Sam while LHO worked there, making it an interesting place for a defector to land a job.

Did Ex-President Bush Know Lee Harvey Oswald?

EXCERPT (Thanks, 9215, wherever you are for the info from "The Man Who Knew Too Much")...

By the early autumn of 1962, Lee and Marina Oswald's relationship was already devolving into constant bickering. Thirteen days before Nagell's arrival in Dallas from Mexico to make some inquiries about him, on Oct. 10 Oswald had suddenly left his job at a Fort Worth metal factory, bid a temporary farewell to his family, and traveled alone the thirty miles to Dallas. Staying for a few days at a YMCA, opened his first of several post office boxes, Box 2915. On October 12 he suddenly found new employment with the Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall (JCS) photo-lithography firm for $1.35/hour. ...

JCS was an interesting place for a 'redefector' from the USSR to find a job. One of the company's contracts was doing classified work for the U.S. Army Map Service. In this context, employees set type for place names on maps of Cuba. Just days after Oswald arrived JCS, pictures taken by an American U2 spy plane would confirm the existence of Soviet missile launching pads.....

....Hundreds of dollars worth of photographic equipment were discovered by the Dallas police in Oswald's apartment ....

Oswald himself was never known to have been fond of taking long cross-country camera hikes in foreign lands. But someone else was. This was a well-connected Russian e'migre' some thirty years Oswald's senior,....Both the wife and daughter would tell the Warren Commission that it was he who had arranged for Oswald's employment at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall. Not the Texas Employment Commission, as official records would have us believe.....

CONTINUED (SmirkingChimp GOOGLE cache)...

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:qaHwSySygX0J:www.s...

Anyway, someone there got tired of LHO and he got canned. Here's the affidavit:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/gangl.htm

EdIT: tippo in the title
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
94. No. He was controlling the price of oil too...something to do with
anti trust , monopoly, controlling prices, ,....the rumor was that
the Hunts of Texas, the oil Hunts had put out a contract on him

Wait a minute. Wasn't there a CIA or plumber by the name of Hunt?
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. hmmmm
I think that any rational person would have long believed that Oswald had some sort of CIA/military intelligence link. You just don't defect to Russia at the height of the Cold War and decide it was all a big mistake and be taken back by a grateful nation, especially someone who had been assigned to the U2.

If this document is real - and we need to get more information on that - it just pretty much confirms what's obvious.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. I don't know anything about this - just stumbled on this thread, but
if this document is real, doesn't it prove that the government has been lying all this time about Oswald?

I mean, it may not be news to people who know a lot about the assassination, but it is news to me that he is confirmed to have worked for the CIA. That certainly has never been the official story. So if this document is real, doesn't that raise a very reasonable question about what else the government might have suppressed?

I almost fell out of my chair when Colin Powell basically admitted last year that the CIA had Allende assassinated. Do they think there is some kind of statute of limitations on international murder? Do they think we're such idiots we'll just forgive and forget if they let a few decades pass before admitting to their atrocities?
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
107. The sad, sad fucking answer to your very astute question.
"...Do they think we're such idiots we'll just forgive and forget if they let a few decades pass before admitting to their atrocities?"

Yes. Yes they do. And they're right

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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #107
239. I was discussing the assasination with a co-worker and she said.
"So what. It was a long time ago and Kennedy was a communist anyway. He needed to die to change the way the country was going".
:wtf:
This is from a repug christian who says that "we need kill all the muslims in the ME or they'll kill us first".
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #32
134. Powell said that? Did he mention it happened

ON SEPTEMBER 11? 1973, I believe it was.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #134
249. Gee. This didn't make it into The New York Times. I wonder why.
It's a sure bet General, uh, Secretary Powell means it, too...

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell
Interview On Black Entertainment Television's Youth Town Hall


February 20, 2003

(excerpt on 1973 U.S. covert action in Chile)

(...)

MR. BRADLEY: Welcome back to BET OpenMic. Secretary of State Colin Powell is here to answer questions from our audience and from the Internet, our audience here in the studio, students from the Washington, D.C., metropolitan area. Let me go back here to get our next question. It is a follow-up from this young man. Your name and your question.

QUESTION: My name is James Dubek (ph). My question is that undoubtedly the United States considers itself the moral superior in this Iraq confrontation. My question is, despite past events such as in 1973 when the United States staged a coup in Chile on September 11th, despite the wishes of the Chilean populace against the coup, and in support -- and the populace in support of the democratically elected President Salvador Allende, the CIA, regardless, supported the coup of Augusto Pinochet and that resulted in mass deaths.

And my question is: Why does the United States now consider itself the moral superior enough to have nuclear weapons while Iraq -- while demanding that Iraq disarm, yet we still maintain our weapons?

SECRETARY POWELL: It's not a matter of us believing that we are morally superior. It is a matter of us recognizing a danger to the region and to the world. I wish nuclear weapons didn't exist. They do exist. The United States were the ones, we were the ones who invented them in the first place and we used them to end World War II. And other nations have acquired those weapons over the years, but for the most part, the major nations of the world who have nuclear weapons have arrangements with each other and they are under control and nobody is worried about that kind of a nuclear conflagration any longer.

But with Iraq, we have a regime that has attacked its neighbors, that has used gas against its neighbors, that has used chemical weapons, gas, against its own population, and has demonstrated an intent for years to use these weapons for not peaceful purposes and not to protect itself, but to be aggressive against other nations. And it is for that reason that the international community, not just the United States, but the United Nations, passed 16 resolutions, now with 1441 a 17th resolution, saying this is unacceptable.

So it is the will of the international community that Iraq disarm, and not just the moral superior position, as you describe it, of the United States. We have no desire to impose upon the Iraqi people a leadership that is to our choosing, but to give them an opportunity to choose their own leadership.

With respect to your earlier comment about Chile in the 1970s and what happened with Mr. Allende, it is not a part of American history that we're proud of. We now have a more accountable way of handling such matters and we have worked with Chile to help it put in place a responsible democracy.

One of the proudest moments of my life was going to Chile in the late '80s and speaking to all of the military officers in the Chilean armed forces, all the senior officers, and talking to them about democracy and elected representative government and how generals such as them and me -- I was a general at the time -- are accountable to civilian authority so that incidents of that kind or situations of that kind no longer arose.


<...>

Source: http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/17841.htm

Source for ABOVE: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/02/dos022003.html

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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. I remember reading about Oswald returning to the US. I saw the
picture of him being greeted at the airport. he was not arrested. The greeting seemed cordial. This article was on the front page of the Courier-Journal newspaper.
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. his return was very cordial...
He wasn't charged with treason - his passport was good as gold and he was given funds to return to the United States with his Russian family.

And this in an era when they fried the Rosenbergs...it defies logic, unless he was there on behalf of the US government to begin with. That's the only possible explanation.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
68. Actually, here's the logic
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 07:59 PM by Eloriel
It's called the "backstory" -- revealing or planting certain information, making it public so they (the CIA or other covert ops) will have a public knowing or believing certain things later which is advantageous to their operation, especially as part of the cover for that action. Make sense?

Why on earth would a nobody like Oswald get press coverage otherwise?
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #44
74. Big difference between the Rosenberg's and JFK era
The Rosenberg's ended in 1953 and JFK in 1963.

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. The key here is that this is the FIRST time it's been documented.
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Lizzie Borden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
80. You are absolutelt correct about the Russia angle.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
251. Oh god. It's called tradecraft.
If the CIA wanted to send an officer into the USSR to spy on them, do you think they're gonna just hand him a plane ticket to Moscow? Ah hell no. There would be two KGB officers standing next to the door. When Mr. Oswald walked through it, they would immediately throw him in the back seat of a car, take him to the Lubyanka, and put him in an uncharacteristically plush cell. They would feed him well, not interrogate him in any way, then a week or so later run him back out to the airport, put him on a flight back to the West, and be done with it.

Logic: if you're an overt agent and you're so expendable as to be allowed to fly to the Soviet Union in status, you don't know anything they give a shit about anyway.

Instead, they'd ship him over as an illicit then create some big stink about how one of our most valuable assets just up and defected to the Soviets and How Damaging To Our National Security This Is. After he's completed his mission, he'll decide he hates the Soviet Union and want to come home.

If Oswald was an authentic defector, and he authentically decided he hated the Soviet Union, immediately upon his return to the United States he would have been clapped in authentic irons, put in an authentic paddy wagon, given an authentic sentence of life without parole, and sent to an authentic jail where he would have authentically rotted.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
17. Makes sense. G.H.W. Bush, at the time in the CIA, was supposed to have
said that he knew another "Texan" had it in for JFK. I guess he also meant co-worker.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
220. GHW Bush ratted one "James Parrott" within MINUTES of JFK's death.
The President had just been declared dead when, according to the FBI, they received a "telephonic" transmission from "George HW Bush, president of Zapata Off-shore Drilling Company" who named a young Republican(!) as a suspect. Here's the document:



It's a sure bet Bush did a lot of "drilling." Here's another memo, from J Edgar stating a "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency" discussed the assassination with members of the pro- and anti-Castro communities in Miami. Bush cleared the anti-Castro folks PDQ.



Source:

http://www.internetpirate.com/bush.htm

Well. This clears things up. They also help explain why Bush "doesn't remember" where he was on 22 November 1963.

Sorry if these are old hat. But they are, IMO, at present more important than the "new" memo in the original post. The reason:

BOTH OF THESE MEMOS ARE OFFICIAL, SOURCED FROM US GOVERNMENT ARCHIVES.

WHEN WILL GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH EXPLAIN HIS ACTIONS?

WHEN WILL HE EXPLAIN HIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION.

WHEN WILL BUSH TELL THE TRUTH?


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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #220
265. And what about Sirhan Sirhan?
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 10:12 PM by goclark

I've always wondered about Sirhan Sirhan too.

Isn't it odd that JFK AND RFK were both killed?

No CIA connections to RFK ???

Huuummm
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
18. you must have heard about/read John Newman's book?
Oswald and the CIA?

over a hundred pages of copies of CIA and related stuff, pretty much proving he was at least a contract agent

he's a prof at U MD, and challenged the provenance of that bogus Assassination Records Bureau

I talked to a couple of them on the radio right after his book came out, and they didn't want to hear about things like the lying bastard Helms perjuring himself, denying that Clay Shaw was deeply tied to the CIA, then recanting. they didn't even KNOW about that when I told them over the radio.

et cet r a
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Newman is THE authority when it comes to this.
He's done great follow-ups to Oswald and the CIA, particularly with regard to the Mexico City CIA station.

For instance:

http://www.jfklancer.com/backes/newman/newman_1.html
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
98. Newman's awesome. He may've saved the country.
Newman's a hero. His books on "JFK and Vietnam" and "Oswald and the CIA" are must-reads.

As a prof at West Point, he wanted to find out about the period before the "Pentagon Papers." In his work, Newman discovered NSAM 263 (National Security Action Memorandum) that indicated JFK ordered combat forces out of Vietnam after the 1964 election. He also found NSAM 273 that documented how LBJ reversed course the week after the assassination, meaning the US would commit whatever support was needed to guarantee the government of South Vietnam.

Newman's speaking at this super-conference on the Warren Commission in Washington this weekend. Here's a link:

The Warren Report and Its Legacy

http://www.AARCLibrary.com/notices/WarrenReportConferen...
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #98
157. whoaaaaa! thanks. glad this thread came up again
he really is a source for truth....too bad that bizarroboy Posner somehow gets the mantle as THE expert on the conspiracy

what a joke

you two are amazing, btw

thanks for all the vital information/perspectives you always provide
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #98
212. The BFEE was behind the escalation in Vietnam in 1963
The events of August-October 1963 relating to Vietnam, climaxing in the overthrow and assassination of Presidient Diem on November 1, 1963 may have had a more than coincidental connection to the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963. The most mysterious of those events was the telegram of August 24, 1963 that Averell Harriman somehow managed to sneak out behind Kennedy's back.


At this time, the group proposing escalation in Vietnam (as well as preparing the assassination of President Diem) had a heavy Brown Brothers, Harriman/Skull and Bones overtone: the hawks of 1961-63 were Harriman, McGeorge Bundy, William Bundy, Henry Cabot Lodge, and some key London oligarchs and theoreticians of counterinsurgency wars. And of course, George Bush during these years was calling for escalation in Vietnam and challenging Kennedy to "muster the courage" to try a second invasion of Cuba.

http://www.tarpley.net/bush8b.htm


Another most painful episode concerns the overthrow of President Ngo Dinh Diem, advocated by a cabal in the State Department led by undersecretary Averell Harriman. William Colby, then heading the clandestine services' Far East division, advocated caution. He said, the action "appears to be throwing away bird in hand before we have adequately identified birds in the bush, or songs they may sing." But the caution was disregarded, the coup proceeded, Diem was murdered, and the South Vietnamese government became a de-stabilized and de-legitimized revolving door of nobodies.

<snip>

The storming of Buddhist pagodas on 21 August by forces directed by Ngo Dinh Nhu crystallized the "Diem must go" convictions, and on Saturday, 24 August, at a time when President Kennedy, National Security Adviser McGeorge Bundy, Secretary of Defense McNamara, Secretary of State Rusk, and DCI McCone happened to be out of town, a small group of strategically placed senior State Department officials smoked a fateful Top Secret/Operational Immediate cable past interagency coordinators to a receptive Ambassador Lodge. In effect, that cable told the Ambassador to advise Diem that immediate steps must be taken to improve the situation--such as meeting Buddhist demands and dismissing his brother. If Diem did not respond promptly and effectively, Lodge was instructed to advise key Vietnamese military leaders that the United States would not continue to support his government. The directive was intended to shake up Diem, neutralize Nhu, and strengthen the hands of a group of generals who opposed the two brothers' coercive policies and deplored their counterinsurgency tactics. The directive proved crucial two months later, in effect giving a green light to a coup against Diem.

<snip>

Summing up White House discussions in which he participated during the last days of August 1963, CIA's Far East Division chief, William Colby, recorded that the President and the Attorney General "were apparently appalled at the speed with which the State decision was reached on Saturday afternoon, 24 August, and felt that more thought, analysis, and preparation should have preceded the instruction to Lodge." ... Years later General Taylor said of the 24 August weekend that "a small group of anti-Diem activists picked this time to perpetrate an egregious 'end run' in dispatching a cable of the utmost importance to Saigon without obtaining normal departmental clearances." ... DCI John McCone reported that he was told by Secretaries Rusk and McNamara on 4 September that they were unhappy with the manner in which the 24 August cable had been handled, McNamara adding that the cable "did not represent the views of the President."

<snip>

Ambassador Frederick Nolting, displaced in Saigon by Lodge and denigrated in Washington by Hilsman because of his pro-Diem arguments (but whose counsel the President sought in August 1963 to balance that of his detractors), later wrote that in 22 years of public service he had never seen anything "resembling the confusion, vacillation and lack of coordination in the U.S. Government" at that time. Although Nolting had sympathy for President Kennedy, he deplored "his failure to take control" and concluded that "the Harriman-Lodge axis seemed too strong for him."


http://ngothelinh.150m.com/CIA_CSI.html
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
23. Richard Helms said "If you want to keep a secret, don't keep it on paper."
The only reason we officially learned about MK-ULTRA is the oversight that a single box of documents had missed his destruction order.

He must be spinning on his skewer right now in the 13th circle of Hell.
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
165. heh....I used to think about having him subject to the same sort of
investigative techniques he sanctioned in countries like Guatemala or Uruguay

what was that Costa Gavras movie....not Z, but the one that was based on the Uruguayan kidnapping of a US "police" advisor there?
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Lefty_the_Right Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. I think the important part IS the bottom
That is that part that should be highlighted!!!

We knew that he was attatched to the CIA, but that it is the lynchpin in Garrisons case.

It is the original "OCTOBER SUPRISE".

Shooting down the U2 was supposed to throw the election to the "tough on commies" Nixon, NOT the liberal JFK.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Is Garrison still alive? n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Eloriel, do you remember the name of the Dallas officer
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 03:29 PM by seemslikeadream
who gave the poly tests?

Detective of Police Identification Bureau R D Lewis

:hi:
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TheCentepedeShoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
49. No, died in '95 n/t
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
64. That's a shame. I hope he has family that can know he was right.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Wait. If HW went to Dallas on 11/23 what day did Ruby shoot Oswald AND
could it be that HW gave him the orders to do so?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
63. Exactly my thought. Is Garrison still alive so he can be vindicated?
They made a wacko out of him to the rest of the world.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
25. Wow.......interesting.
How can we validate its authenticity?

Here's a link on another "Zapata Oil" connection to our young Dimson....George was an aspiring botanist flying around Central America and Florida, in 1971, tracking down rare, non-flowering plants....with some of Dad's 'business associates, formally of Zapata Offshore'. Fascinating stuff.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
224. Nefarity is the Bush family business.
Yeh. That Hopsicker.

(W) Bush Flew for Airline Tied to Iran Contra Drug Smuggling

http://www.madcowprod.com/mc5012004.html

It's not called the Bush Family Evil Empire for nothing.

Scheming With the Enemy

George and the Family Bush Keep Interesting Company


Nico Pitney - Columnist
Tuesday November 4, 2003

Mark Batalla / Daily Nexus

You missed an impressive milestone last week, if you did not have one eye watching the news ticker.

The Associated Press, the largest newsgathering organization in the world, released a story about the ties between George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, and Nazi Germany. It was their first report on this subject in more than 60 years.

Consider that fact in context. Imagine, for a moment, the small rainforest that was sacrificed so that newspaper pundits could share their insights about blow jobs and stained dresses, or any of the myriad of other Clinton scandals, however irrelevant or manufactured.

Now, three years into George W.'s presidency, the AP has finally troubled itself to report that the grandfather of our current president was aiding the Nazi effort from the mid-1920s all the way to 1942, at which point Prescott was managing German coal mining projects that relied on slave labor from Auschwitz.

CONTINUED .... (From a college student! May this guy go far!)

http://www.ucsbdailynexus.com/opinion/2003/5962.html
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
26. There's a usenet discussion about this document
in the alt.jfk.assassination forum. It can be viewed here in Google.

It's of course disputed by the "Lonenutters," who seem to have the run of the place. (John MacAdams, for instance.)
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. Aaaagghhhh....John McAdams!!!! That guy acts like he's on the...
..."payroll".
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. An FAQ about McAdams you've probably seen:
http://www.geocities.com/justicewell/faq.htm

Here's a quote from McAdams about his mission in the JFK newsgroup:

You buffs have been cooperating marvelously with my scheme
to make this group a shambles.
And you know the bizarre part? My scheme is not a secret.
I have publicly announced it.
I have made it perfectly obvious.
I have rubbed you buffs' noses in it.
It's blatantly obviously to everybody.


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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Yep...sure have. That guy is still going strong. I just LOL at him now.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
46. Punched in "CO-2-34.030" to GOOGLE.
This is what I got from a cache:

Document # 180-10087-10138 is a three page report. This is from the Secret Service. It is numbered CO-2-34.030. It was written by Ernest I Aragon. This was for the period December 10-13, 1963.

BTW: Thanks for the link to the BB. Once I return to Bat-Cave will have a serious go at all of this.



SINK the BFEE!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
82. Aragon was FBI or was he SS?
Check this out, MB and DU readers!

Here, Mr. Aragon is FBI:

President's Visit to Miami
18 December 1963
SS Report dated Dec. 30, 1963


http://cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0066.html

According to this GOOGLE cache listing, he's SS:

SECRET SERVICE AGENTS BEFORE, DURING
AND AFTER THE JFK ADMINISTRATION


http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:BGSXPCdMhxYJ:www.a...

NOTE: This is not to cast suspicion or dispersion upon Mr. Aragon. This is to raise awareness of the purported author of the orginal 1963 CIA memo.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #82
139. Looks to me like the first doc is a report up the chain within the SS.
Edited on Sat Sep-18-04 02:33 AM by Merlin
Unless I'm missing something. That would be consistent with his service info in the 2nd.

Btw, I noticed this entry (Truman era):
"Lane Bertram- Atlanta, GA office (w/Youngblood, Kober, Letteer, and Horton)
Clayton Kober- Atlanta, GA office
Hancock- same as above
Roy Letteer- same as above; by 1960 became SAIC of the Little Rock office
Paul Usher- WHD 1952 (Youngblood's supervisor on his first temporary assignment);
...
Rufus W. Youngblood- Asst. Dir. of Protective Forces, Fall 1965 until start of 1968; became Deputy Director; retired in 1971;"


This must be the SAIC Bertran referred to on pg 2 of the enchilada. Are you familiar with his 1/3/64 Report it twice refers to? Wonder what's with the reference to the law firm (presumably).


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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #139
149. Sorry to report I have no knowledge of 1/3/64 report...
I do know Bertram has the history of a BFEE turd, most capable of planting "Exculpatory Evidence."

Possible Secret Service Propaganda

EXCERPT...

Over the years, with the assistance of several well-placed Secret Service agents, many documents and many books have been written that, on the face of it, have a certain ring of authority --- until one looks a little closer at their claims, as this author has done in regard to the follow-ing items. Perhaps many will be familiar to JFK researchers.

In Commission Exhibit 993 (18H642) ,which is a translation done by Secret Service agent Leon Gopadze of a Marina Oswald letter, it is stated: "I am very, very grateful to the Secret Service agents who treated me so well and took such good care of me. Although some of the letters which I received accused these wonderful people of preventing me from seeing others, I am free to do anything I want..."

Give me a break! The New York Times of December 8, 1963 reported that "Secret Service agents suggested to her that it might be safer and easier for her to return to the Soviet Union than to try to live in the United States. This distressed her...She is now secluded from Oswald's relatives as well as from the public." Author Michael Dorman, in "Secret Service Story" (New York: Dell, 1975), dedicated his book "...to all the present and former members of the U.S. Secret Service, with particular appreciation to retired agent Lane Bertram, who took the trouble to show a young reporter the ropes in days gone by" (p.4). This Oswald-did-it book stands out for its sickeningly sweet approach to the Secret Service's ultimate failure, evidenced in many of its pages and perhaps summed up here best: "In the confusion, one group of men acted with a dispatch and precision born of hours of drill, discipline and professional training. These men were the agents of the United States Secret Service... Within an instant of the time the shots were fired, agents leaped into action. Pistols and automatic rifles appeared in their hands. An agent in the president's limousine immediately grabbed a radio-telephone. 'Let's go straight to the nearest hospital', he shouted to nearby policemen." (!?!)

SNIP...

The-Oswald-as FBI Informant Story is attributed by Posner to Dallas Assistant D.A. Bill Alexander, who, along with two reporters (including Lonnie Hudkins) "printed the story, attributing it to an unidentified source." (p. 348) Actually, that 'source' appears to have been Agent Lane Bertram, the SAIC of the Houston office of the Secret Service. (See The Third Alternative, p. 57, by this author.)

CONTINUED...

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/DPQ/propag~1.htm
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #149
205. Here's where SWEATT comes in... LHO was Informant #S-172
Warren Commission staff head Lee Rankin called this ...

"The Dirty Little Rumor."

"On January 24, three days prior to the (January 27) Commission meeting, the Secret Service submitted about thirty investigative reports to the Commission. One of these reports, carrying the control number 767, contained a Secret Service interview with Alonzo) Hudkings (a newspaper reporter). Hudkins told the Secret Service agents that his information came from AllenSweatt, the chief of the criminal division of theSallas sheriff's office. According to Hudkins, Sweatt stated:

Oswald was being paid two hundred dollars per month by the FBi in connection with their subversive investigationn (and) that Oswald had informant number S-172.

Allen Sweatt was never questioned by the Commission or its staff."

End of quote.

Source

p.512
Mark North
"Act of Treason"

Here's the rest of Rankin's quote:

"We do have a dirty rumor that is very bad for the Commission, the problem, and it is very damaging to the agencies that are involved in it and it must be wiped out insofar as it is possible to do by this Commission."

Source
the same, p. 513

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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. He was just a patsy! I hope Jim Garrison is smiling somewhere!
I would love to see how much Bush #41 was involved. It would seem he was.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #29
47. Did JimGarrison write a book from his perspective?
I read one, around 20 years ago, that blew me away. The name "POPPY" figured prominently, and also a doctor involved with the Bush family. The book was dismissed as bullshit, but it was very, very compelling. I'd like to find it again..
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Garrison wrote a book called "On the Trail of the Assassins"
At the top of my list of recommendations:

"The Assassinations" anthology
John Newman, "Oswald and the CIA"
Peter Dale Scott, "Deep Politics and the Death of JFK"
Gaeton Fonzi, "The Last Investigation"
Dick Russell, "The Man Who Knew Too Much"
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. Interesting....
but not entirely new. The House Committee revealed that he had a CI case file in the late 1970s.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
33. In seeing this memo, what do others think the real story is now?
Was Ozwald truly a patsy and/or what do you think was his involvement?
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Expendable CIA, set-up patsy. This only confirms what we've all
known (or most of us have known).
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Thanks Eloriel.
n/t
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
57. We thought we knew it, alright - but to actually see it confirmed...
Wow! This really blows me away!

:wow:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #57
71. I know -- I had the same reaction
It's surreal. A blessed relief and an indescribable horror all at the same time.
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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
34. Of course he was CIA. i've known that a long time.
In my opinion, he actually WAS one of the shooters who hit Kennedy, but he was not the only one. There were at least two other people shooting at him. He was part of a CIA operation.
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
37. Could this be a repuke trick
at trying to compare what was found out about shrub and "finding" this document. The timing is awfully suspicious.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. How would this possibly help the GOP?
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. I wrote my post to fast
I had to get outa here quick. What I meant was...and I know this sounds nuts..what if repukes started this as a diversion to the so called "fake" documents showing shrub as a deserter. Kennedy's assassinations conspiracy theories are are the butt of alot of jokes. If they can get folks to go along with this, they could say ..look at these crazies willing to believe anything that was copied and printed from many years ago.

Anyway, that was the first thing that came to my mind.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I thought of that, too - but the detail...the content - this would be
difficult to fake. This thing definitely looks authentic. Perhaps it wasn't declassifed, but leaked - by someone who knows that once the Busheviks have their Porter Goss'es in there - NOTHING'S gonna survive - and wanted this to finally see the light of day while it was possible! I know that's how I'd think if I were in there now.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
53. A permanent kick!
Wondering if this was really declassified, or leaked?

:shrug:
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #53
69. That's what I was wondering.
The link says it is a "De-classified Document."

If it has been officially de-classified, does that mean that McLaughlin approved the declassification?

Or did someone leak it, as you suggested above, while there is no one officially in the head position, and before * has a chance to put Goss in there?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. I dont think that's what's going on. All of Nixon docs are coming out
over the last couple of years...lots of older docs that were classified are coming out and reporters , researchers, are letting
things be known.

Remember a couple of months ago the docs about what Nixon really
thought of Kissinger...and about the Joint Chiefs of Staff spying on
Nixon came out.....

Those reporters/researchers are digging and finding things that slipped through....dont forget there was a time there were no shredders.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. If you're right,
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 08:53 PM by Sophree
I'd like to meet the person who had the balls to make (and take?) a copy of this radioactive memo! :-)

It's nice to think there are brave, honest intel/gov't people out there.
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Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
60. TRANSCRIPTION:
I transcribed it for a friend who had difficulty reading it.

To: Mr. James J. Rowley
Chief, U.S. Secret Service

From: Mr. John McCune
Director, Central Intelligence Agency

Subject: Central Intelligence Report on the Assassination of John Kennedy

In response to the request made by your office on 24 February 1964 re: Lee Oswald's activities and assignments on behalf of this agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation, there follows a narrative summary of the internal subversive activities of the Oswald subject.

I recommend that unless the Commission makes a specific request for specific information contained herein, that this information not be volunteered. This agency has reason to assume that some junior Commission staff members may be potential sources of leaks to the news media or to other agencies; due to the highly sensitive nature of the enclosed material, it would certainly be in the national interest to withhold it at this time - unless there is, of course, a specific request made.

It is my understanding that Mr. Hoover has certain sensitive information within his agency, which has been transferred to his own personal files for safekeeping; he concurs that no material should be voluntarily given to the Commission which might affect the status of field operatives of their safety. He is particularly concerned about the De Bruey memorandum, which Central Intelligence has obtained and which, I understand, you have obtained. It is imperative that this information, at least for the time, remain under wraps.

Oswald subject was trained by this agency, under cover of the Office of Naval Intelligence, for Soviet assignments. During preliminary training, in 1957, subject was active in aerial reconnaissance of mainland China and maintained a security clearance up to the "confidential" level. His military records during this period are open to your agency and I have directed they be forwarded to the Commission.

Subject received additional indoctination at our own Camp Peary site from September 8 to October 17, 1958, and participated in a few relatively minor assignments until arrangements were made for his entry into the Soviet Union in September 1959. While in the Soviet Union, he was on special assignment in the area of Minsk. It would not be advantageous at this time to divulge the specifics of that assignment; however, if you wish this information it can ...
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. thanks for doing this! n/t
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
77. Thank you, Flammable
I couldn't read it either.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
79. Thanks, Flammable Materials!
Much obliged! And a hearty welcome to DU!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
62. Octa - Then why did they set him up as the fall guy???
so convoluted. And why release it now?

Or did Pappy, in the agency himself, handle him and fool him that this
was his job?? I'm confused.

I thought Jackie had it sealed for 75 years......
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. Two things stick out to me : 1) HW going to Dallas the next day - again
I ask, what day was it that Ruby shot Oswald?

and 2) The DeBruey Memo. the CIA was worried about the DeBruey Memo.

I'd like to know what was in the DeBruey Memo.

Freedom of Information ?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #67
164. November 24, 1963
On November 24, 1963, Dallas, Texas, police were transferring Lee Harvey Oswald, who had been arrested for assassinating President John F. Kennedy two days earlier, from one jail to another. A crowd of journalists, photographers, and police crowded around in the jail's basement garage, and watched as Oswald was led out and was about to be placed in a police car. Suddenly, Jack Ruby, an owner of a Dallas nightclub and admirer of President Kennedy, stepped forward, drew a gun, and killed Oswald. The whole incident was captured on live television, shocking viewers who witnessed the crime.

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/page.cgi/jb/mode...
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
78. The powers-that-be used Dallas to build support for Cuba invasion...
During the Cuban Missile Crisis of October, 1962, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, almost the entire cabinet, and most of Congress that had been briefed wanted JFK to launch a nuclear strike against the Soviet Union, even if it meant global nuclear war.

Thanks to Adlai Stevenson and Bobby Kennedy, the President ordered the government agencies to work out an alternative. That was the embargo. For his trouble keeping the world from ending, JFK was branded "soft" on communism and worse.

One of the things that has most troubled me about the JFK assassination is that there is so much evidence indicating government duplicity in the killing. Chief among these is the concerted efforts to paint Oswald as being a communist sympathizer who wanted to shoot the President and then flee to Cuba.

(This is in addition to the trail created before the assassination: One man purchased trucks in Oswald's name. Another man claimed to be Oswald took a car salesman on a harrowing "test drive" and said he'd be "coming into money" soon.)

A man impersonating Oswald appeared at the Cuban embassy in Mexico City. There were even records of CIA-wiretapped phone calls of a man claiming to be Oswald to the Cuban embassy. To me, that demostrates SOMEONE went to a lot of trouble to point the finger at Castro -- and by extension his backers in Moscow.

To the Warren Commission and the public, the CIA stated the man was Oswald. Only decades later did the Agency recant and state they don't know who the man was. But at the time, someone in the Agency wanted Oswald to be a Cuban sympathizer so the American people would be UNITED in a war on Cuba and the Soviets.



This is the man the CIA top brass claimed was Lee Harvey Oswald. Notice the forearms, those of a very strong man. Here's another pic.



Striking there's no similarity to Lee Harvey Oswald. Yet, more and more it looks like Oswald was a loyal American used by his government to be the "Patsy."




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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #78
90. OCTA- I know that look. He's a slavic/russian or austrian/german type-noti
notice the broad face and the deep set eyes. - there's something NOT
American looking about him - another CIA double-assett from Russia?

Boy that Mexican embassy must have been a hotbed.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. How bout Pappy went to Dallas to tell Ruby to remove Oswald???
hmmm ?
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #92
183. Ruby may have been a CIA informant? He was a mob lackey at best.
Could Ruby had possibly been a govt informant, sqeauling on Marcello, Hoffa, Traficante and Giancana? Ruby may have allready been in trouble with the mob.
The CIA (Poppy), may have told Ruby to silence Oswald or his cover will be blown and his life would end violently at the hands of the mob. Whack Oswald and we'll put you in protective custody, kind of deal.
Ruby was made an offer he couldnt refuse?
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #90
154. Well...
the pseudo-Oswald looks phenotypically Anglo-Saxon to me. Notice that in the second photo, he's squinting against the sun, which gives his eyes a slightly different look. And if CIA wanted to make it appear that Oswald was in Mexico City, it makes more sense to use an American than someone who might conceivably make some cultural or speech-related (accent, syntax, idiom, etc) slip that the Americans at the embassy would notice.
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republicansarewhores Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #78
109. That Mexico City picture makes it very clear that it's not Oswald.
It's Randy Quaid!

RAW
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #109
209. LOL! Randy's been breaking a few skulls, has he?
Check out the dude's expression and the way he holds his satchel -- with his elbows out. The freak looks like a NAZI Skorzeny-Popeye hybrid. Just right for the job.
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
75. It's a forgery!
I could do that in MS Word! :evilgrin:

Just kidding. Nice find.

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renegade000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
76. well my grandfather worked at the CIA
and he told my dad he overherd some "good ol' boy" types talking about how they orchestrated the Kennedy assasinations.

it wasn't the CIA...it was some CIA men though.

whether you choose to believe it or not, this is something of a bit of insider knowledge that has been passed down through the family.
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
81. Sorry, it is a fake. Just more disinformation that the "mafia" did it.
This has been around for a few years.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Glad to hear it.
BTW: Where did you see it posted before?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #81
147. Do you have a link to where you saw this before?....
And I'm going to tell you that there are quite a few of us that have followed the JFK assassination story very, very closely for quite a few years (close to forty years for me alone). I've never seen this document before, and neither has anyone else.

Care to share your source?

By the way, where did you get the idea that this memo was purporting to say that the "mafia did it"? Between which set of lines were you reading?
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
84. Where's the second page?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. Dunno. Searching.
I understand there are three pages.

Please see #46.
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
86. This has been out since 2002, I believe
Maybe even 2001. This is only the first page. There's more to it.
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. What's even stranger....
I just emailed this document to someone this afternoon. I had no idea Alex Jones had it on his site.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #88
95. It's an Associative Universe...
... according to Jacques Vallee. Like in Jung's "Synchronicity," our minds act as rudders between possible universes or multiverses. Preety cool stuff...

Regarding the document:

Do you have more information on its provenance, RebelYell?

Do you have the other two (I believe) pages?

Where else is the document posted?

How did you hear about it from 2001 or 2002?

Inquiring minds on the case of Traitors want to know.



"What S&L crisis?"
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. I, too, have ???
I immediately questioned the lack of other pages of the memo. I can't remember where I saw it. It was either 2001 or early 2002, because of the location of the file on my computer.

I recently met someone interested in JFK, and thought he might want to read it. I emailed it this afternoon. Just strange, when I saw your thread.

I will think on it overnight and attempt to remember where it came from. I'm sure the entire memo was declassified. It makes me suspicious that it's only the first page that's been posted. And...why again? Why now?

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. McCone, all the rest are dead, except one. Do you remember the picture
of Ruby , Oswald, and Goss sitting at a bar table together?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. Not Ruby and Oswald... Frank Sturgis and Barry Seal.
Edited on Fri Sep-17-04 11:21 PM by Octafish
Goss and his Operation 40 buddies...Nice bunch of fellahs.

http://www.madcowprod.com /

EDIT: Sorry... Can't get link to plink the pic... again.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. No, OCTA - I dont mean that one, there's a pic of 3 men only
Goss and Oswald for sure.....but I dont remember if the third person
was Ruby.

It's a pic on the internet I saw.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. Sorry, Pallas180! Didn't know about your photo! Wow!
Eiter way, Porter's a big and greasy turd of the BFEE.

On a side note, here's a picture of Jack Ruby. Guess where it was taken? Extra credit if you know what he said around the time it was snapped.

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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Looks like it's in the basement, just before he shoots Oswald.
Never saw it before.

I give up on what he said.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. It's the Dallas PDHQ, all right.
Not the basement, though. Here's JFK Lancer's take...

During the Friday night "press conference" with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station, then District Attorney Henry Wade said that Lee Oswald was a member of the "Free Cuba Movement," Ruby corrected him, stating: "Fair Play for Cuba." As Ruby testified to Chief Justice Warren:

And they questioned Henry Wade, "what organization did he belong to," or something. And if I recall, I think Henry Wade answered, "Free Cuba." And I corrected Henry Wade, because listening to the radio or KLIF, it stood out in my mind that it was "Fair Play Cuba." There was a difference. So he said, "Oh yes, Fair Play Cuba," and he corrected that.

We left out in the hallway, and I saw Henry Wade standing there, and I went over to him and said, "Henry, I want you to know I was the one that corrected you." I think it is a childish thing, but I met Henry Wade sometime back, and I knew he would recognize me. By the way, it was "Fair Play Cuba," or something to that effect.


SOURCE:

http://www.jfklancer.com/jackruby.html

Now how the heck would Jack Ruby know that Oswald was in a pro-Castro organization? Was Oswald a media personality in Dallas? Difficult to believe, especially when considering Oswald developed his legend in New Orleans.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #110
113. THAT"S IT. I think the picture of Ruby, Oswald, Goss was in New Orleans.
There was information that Ruby and Oswald knew each other. I think
it was that Oswald used to visit Ruby's offices upstairs and come down
with pamphlets, (Cuba stuff) that he would distribute.

But definitely there was a history they knew each other.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #110
124. By Friday night Oswald's life history was public knowledge.
In fact, remember that they had detailed bio info on Oswald out over the networks an hour after his arrest.

What a dweebe Ruby was!
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #106
111. In the Dallas police station....didn't he say "the boys knew him -that he
always hung around, or hung out with them?

Or was this when he shot Oswald? Okay what did he say when he shot
Oswald?

And what day was it?

Was it the day of the funeral....I know it was within 4 days of Nov. 22

I was in college...and the day had turned from bright and sunny to overcast and rainy after he was shot.

And we saw him shoot him right on television...

And the muffled drums stayed in our heads for weeks, months...

That must have been the US's first experience with Post Trauma Distress Syndrome.

And the 2nd time for PTDS was 911
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #111
117. "Not 'Free Cuba Committee.' It's 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee.'"
... or words to that effect. The scene was a press conference in Dallas Police Headquarters. A Dallas police officer had just indicated Oswald was a member of Free Cuba Committee, which was anti-Castro. Old Jack Ruby corrected the guy -- in front of all the reporters -- and said the correct name, which was a pro-Castro group Oswald joined, evidently, to create the impression he was pro-Castro.

Here's a better known shot of the informed stalker:



Source:

http://www.jfklancer.com/jackruby.html


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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #106
112. "It's the Fair Play for Cuba Committee"
That's it, right? Correcting the offical about Oswald's incriminating association, making sure he's connected to the pro-Castro and not the anti-Castro group.

Ruby sure was a busy guy. He was seen at Parkland Hospital, too, about the time the "magic bullet" was found on the wrong gurney. (Wuzzat? Wrong gurney? Details, details....)




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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #103
114. Deleted
Edited on Sat Sep-18-04 12:09 AM by Merlin
.
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. Hopsicker rocks n/t
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #95
101. Here's the site
http://www.aarclibrary.org/index.htm

This is probably where I saw it. I've spent alot of time there.

"AARC Public Library. This electronic library provides access to approximately 50,000 pages of reports, transcripts, and documents relating to political assassination. Many of these documents were released in recent years under the provisions of the JFK Assassination Records Collection Act."

It's a huge site, it will take a while to find the document. If there had been other pages, I would have saved them too. Maybe the other pages weren't declassified.
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Maleficus Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
93. Is this a verified document???
It never did suprise me that Oswald may have been from the CIA. I kinda thought that all along.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #93
102. Please post evidence of verification n/t
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #102
120. who would you like to verify them ? pappybush ?
.silly
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #120
130. Someone should know where this came from
Forensic chemists call this chain of custody.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #130
148. Maybe you should check with someone that used to be part of...
....the recent Assassination Review Board. That was the group that was responsible for declassifying and making public a massive amount of government documents pertaining to the JFK assassination.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-17-04 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
105. Forget it! Everyone is a goddamned type-set expert now!
Every fuckwit that "knows" Word can dispute this....
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #105
116. I'm pretty sure all these documents are from the FOI or released
from the archives....all kinds of stuff coming gushing out the last
few years.

There must have been a time lock on the stuff and the time is up.
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
115. I have all three pages in Photobucket -- tell me how to post them ... n/t
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #115
118. REB can probably tell you... wow, post them..
.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #115
122. Thanks. PC: Right click and pop-up "Properties"...
... Then copy the URL and paste it directly into the DU window for composing messages.

For Mac: Click on the image and hold down until the menu pops up. Click on "Open Image in New Window." Then copy the URL and paste it into the DU window.

Either way, you'll have in the DU window. Hit "Preview" and check to see that it took. Here's an example from

jfklancer.com/photos/Ruby/Rubybooked.JPG.

Intentionally, I've left out the "http:/ /" part, so it shows you what I mean. Below is the entire URL, which should show the photo.




Thanks for going through all the hassle, 2004 Victory. Much obliged.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
119. Octy, can we get an update from you on the current status of this thing.
I'm completely confused as to the authenticity of it. I can't believe it could be authentic yet have been in circulation since 2002.

Where are the declassification notes if it was released through FOIA or through the standard declass procedures?

Somewhere I have a photocopy of a couple of pages from the minutes of the Warren Commission summarizing the testimony of then Texas AG Waggoner Carr. Carr told them he had been given information from an "unimpeachable source" that Oswald was an asset of the CIA and a paid informant of the FBI. He even provided them with employee numbers for both agencies.

But a document like this would be truly astonishing. It would certainly put the rub to Norman Mailer's assertion that all we would find in the files would be the equivalent of the remains of a Mercedes left parked in a dark alley in Harlem for 40 years.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #119
126. Brother Merlin: I'm bustin' at the bit to find out more...
...I've GOOGLED the document ID number and found an old reference to it. Please see posts #46 and 82 above. The thing is, it SEEMS right. There's not much new, except the details about Atsugi sending out recon out over CHINA, not just the USSR; stuff about LHO being involved in photo recon; a few other items that add -- stuff that forgers, no matter how clever, don't get to pass the smell test.

I promise to post whatever I can find on this document ASAFP.

Regarding Carr: Oh yeah. The FBI and CIA were crapping their BVDs Big Time:

From Spartacus.Schoolnet.co.uk:

H. R. Haldeman, President Nixon's chief of staff, claimed in his book, The Ends of Power: "After Kennedy was killed, the CIA launched a fantastic cover-up. The CIA literally erased any connection between Kennedy's assassination and the CIA... in fact, Counter intelligence Chief James Angleton of the CIA called Bill Sullivan of the FBI and rehearsed the questions and answers they would give to the Warren Commission investigators."

Source:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSangleton.htm


I've spent 15 minutes looking, but I saw today a recently released memo where James Jesus Angleton was prepping CIA types in what to say to Dulles and Warren. Tomorrow I'll take up the search...



SINK the BFEE!

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
121. Kick...keeping this one going!
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #121
123. If someone out there can tell me how to post pictures from Photobucket -
I have the entire 3 pages available. I've read the instructions here before but have forgotten them. Are there posting instructions somewhere on this website?
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
125. Okay here it is ...
Edited on Sat Sep-18-04 12:31 AM by 2004 Victory
My problems with this are:

1) If these documents were declassified, the Confidential stamp would be crossed through, there would be a declassified stamp with signatures.

2) The signature is not faded at all, like the type is.

3) The dates given for Oswald entering Russia are off by a year.

On edit: I want to make clear that there's really no doubt that Oswald was some kind of intelligence operative, whether CIA, FBI or ONI, or all three, is unknown. John Newman has clearly proven the fact that the CIA maintained a file on Oswald BEFORE the assassination. However, I have serious doubts about THIS document, especially as it purports to take the blame off the CIA and place it at the feet of Jimmy Hoffa and make this a conspiracy involving the mafia and not the U.S. Government. I find that HIGHLY suspicious.

There are other discrepancies that I'll have to go back and research, but, for the record, here's the whole document ---

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #125
127. He may have been "chemically or surgically controlled."
Holy MK-ULTRA!

This is a mother lode.

"His case officer was Guy Bannister."

We need to determine if this is GENUINE. If so, let's get a Grand Jury going ASAFP.

A million thanks, 2004 Victory!
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. I just can't believe it's real. It's the whole enchilada!
But it sure does feel real!

What irony that this comes up at the same time as the CBS Bushguard nonsense.

Coincidence? Or...
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #127
131. OK. 1st of all, without the original documents in your hands, or very
good original photocopies plus a bonafide verified document from the
department you are not and cannot play handwriting typewriting investigator.

2nd of all - see 1st of all.

I've had enough experience with docs and comparisons to know that.

Actually, they didn't have xerox machines or photocopy machines in 64
so that lets that out - and makes it easier.

And if I;m not mistaken the first documents we saw had different stamps on them than this document...? could this be , oh I forget what you call it, those little negatives they used to put records on
and you pull out and put in a machine that magnifies them..? like in the library of newspaper records???

That would mean the latest one was a picture of the original. The previous one seemed to have more stamps on it.

hmmmm?

It;s alright - you can say I'm wrong...but also if I'm right. too tired to go back and look
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #131
160. microfilm. n/t
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drdigi420 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #131
167. microfiche
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #167
194. Thanks guys. I can always count on DU'ers to be my dictionary :)
.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #131
216. Actually, they DID have photocopiers in 1964.
They weren't widespread, but they were available...the xerographic process was invented in 1937, and Xerox was marketing photocopiers from 1950 on.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #125
128. Complete Transcription
United States Government

Memorandum

Date: March 3, 1964

CONFIDENTIAL

CO-2-34,030

To: Mr. James J. Rowley
Chief, U.S. Secret Service
From: Mr. John McCone
Director, Central Intelligence Agency

Re: Central Intelligence Report on the Assassination of John Kennedy

In response to the request made by your office on 24 February 1964 re: Lee Oswald's activities and assignments on behalf of this agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation, there follows a narrative summary of Internal subversive activities of the Oswald subject.

I recommend that unless the Commission makes a specific request for specific information contained herein, that this information not be volunteered. This agency has reason to assume that some junior Commission staff members may be potential sources of leaks to the news media or to other agencies; due to the highly sensitive nature of the enclosed material, it would certainly be in the national interest to withhold it at this time -- unless there is, of course, a specific request made.

It is my understanding that Mr. Hoover has certain sensitive information within his agency, which has been transferred to his personal files for safekeeping; he concurs that no material should be voluntarily given to the Commission which might affect the status of field operatives or their safety. He is particularly concerned about the DeBruey memorandum, which Central Intelligence has obtained and which, I understand, you have obtained. It is imperative that this information, at least for the time, remain under wraps.

Oswald subject was trained for this agency under cover of the Office of Naval Intelligence, for Soviet assignments. During preliminary training, in 1957, subject was active in aerial reconnaisance of mainland China and maintained a security clearance up to the "confidential" level. His military records during this period are open to your agency and I have directed they be forwarded to the Commission.

Subject received additional indoctrination at our own Camp Perry site from September 8 to October 17, 1958, and participated in a few relatively minor assignments until arrangements were made for his entry into the Soviet Union in September 1959. While in the Soviet Union, he was on special assignment in the area of Minsk. It would not be advantageous at this time to divulge the specifics of that assignment; however, if you wish this information it can

<<page 2>>

be made available for you personal inspection within the confines of our own offices. Or I can send it by courier on the condition that it not leave the custody of the courier. I am concerned that if this information were in any way disclosed to the wrong persons, it would lend the media to erroneously claim this agency, and perhaps others, were directly involved in the Dallas action. While the persons involved were in the employ of this agency, as well as the Federal Bureau of Investigation, it is virtually impossible for this or any agency to maintain full, 24-hour-a-day responsibility over its operatives.

At the time of the Dallas action, the Oswald subject was only ???? ?? in our employ; after the Soviet assignment, we found him to be unreliable and emotionally unstable. He was of little use to us after his marriage and De Bruey, from what I understand, concurs in this. He was provided with a few unimportant infiltration assignments and proved of little or no value.

It is possible that Oswald, given his instability, might have been involved in some operation concerning Hoffa, as noted in SAIC Bertran's report to your agency dated 1/3/64. Mr. Hoover advises that his agency is trying to determine whether Hoffa might have been involved laterally or vertically with the Dallas assassination. I have advised that I would be interested in seeing the results o fthat investigation.

Mr. Hoover advises that the facts given in SAIC Bertran's 1/3/64 report are basically correct; his agency has advised Deputy Sweatt against further unauthorized statements to the news media which might adversely affect the investigation. Mr. Hoover advises he has no knowledge of how Deputy Sweatt obtained his information, as there is no record of the agency distributin any such information to Sweatt or other member of the Dallas Sheriff's office. It is regrettable that this information has come to the attention of the news media, but I am sure Mr. Hoover will be able to clarify the situation.

Speculation within this agency - and this is only speculation at this point - is that the Oswald subject became unstable following surgery April 1, 1961, in the Minsk Hospital. He may have been chemically or electronically "controlled" ... a sleeper agent. Subject spent eleven days hospitalized for a "minor ailment" which should have required no more than three days hospitalization at the most. Six days after his release he met Marina Prusakova. This agency is particularly interested in her intelligence background, and I have requested a report on same from our Soviet Embassy contact.

After his return to the U.S., Oswald worked in New Orleans through the Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean and Friends of Democratic Cuba; his case officer was SAIC Guy Bannister, from the Chicago FBI office. He was transferred from his assignments there after he was arrested and fined for an incident stemming from his distribution of pamphlets fo the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. While our files here sho no further assignments or contact, I am requesting an AN check on the subject from our New Orleans and Ft. Worth offices.

<<page 3>>

Please direct any further communications on this matter to my personal attention so that your requests may be expedited, or feel free to call me anytime. My office is always available to you.

<<signed>>
John McCone
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #128
136. Hooover " concerned about the DeBruey memorandum, "
De Bruey

who is DeBruey and where is that memorandum?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #128
137. While the persons involved were in employ of this agency, as well as FBI
While the persons involved were in the employ of this agency, as well as the Federal Bureau of Investigation,

Hellooooo ???
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #125
132. That Hoffa story was McCone trying to set up a cover. nonsense
.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. Sam Giaconda (spelling) (Chicago mafia) bragged he "killed" JFK
.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #133
135. Didn't he get a shotgun blast through his mouth the day before he
was scheduled to testify to the House Select Committee?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #135
138. Actually, I thought it was the back of his head.
.

I guess someone didn't want him to testify.

He was deported and then they brought him back to testify. He had one
day on American soil I think.

Giacana not Giaconda
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #135
152. That was George DeMohrenschildt, Oswald's benefactor in Texas...
...and geologist/oilman who had Poppy Bush's address in his address book. He was later revealed as having been a CIA contract agent who used his oil business as a cover.

Sam Giancana was also killed prior to testifying...several small-caliber rounds to the mouth and head.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #152
156. So was Johnny Roselli.
Giancana was shot in the back of the head and six times around the mouth with a .22. The Chicago police outside his home didn't see nuthin'. Roselli was found floating in Tampa Bay, sealed inside a 55-gallon drum. Both were scheduled to testify before the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

George de Mohrenshcildt, the only man KNOWN TO BE FRIENDS WITH BOTH POPPY BUSH AND LEE OSWALD also "suicided" befpre he was able to testify before the HSCA. The day Gaeton Fonzi was to meet with "The Baron," he apparently blew his head off with a shotgun.

Santos Traficante was the only Mafioso involved with CIA Operation MONGOOSE to survive to die a natural appearing death. Not counting Robert Maheu -- Howard hughes security honcho -- as a mobster.
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partygirl Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #156
186. The mafia hit theory
is the one that fits the evidence best (at least all the evidence that we know so far). Read the book--Mob Lawyer. There was also a special on A and E about this a while back.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #186
187. Thanks for the heads-up. Yeah. Frank Ragano and Santos Traficante...
... and it ties in the Mob teams recruited to hit Castro and the CIA. Real fine mobsters.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKraganoF.htm

The fact Maheu and the CIA recruited the mob to get Fidel verifies clandestine US government involvment. From there, it's a short step to official sanctioning on someone's behalf. My guess is the office of George Herbert Walk Bush's superior.



Another reason to believe many of the conspirators were high-ranking US government officials is that the motorcade route was changed to make the 120-degree turn smack dab in front of the Patsy's place of work, the Texas School Book Depository. The Mafia doesn't have that kind of authority.

http://www.jfklancer.com/SSoffcar.html

Here's more evidence of, at least, Secret Service involvment. This Quicktime Movie from Love Field shows one agent being ordered off the President's limo. Even if the film doesn't run on your PC, the text tells the story. From what the pictures show, the agent holds up his arms as if to ask, "Why?"

Why? indeed.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #186
241. That was Frank Ragano's book. I read it and was convinced
that Marcello, Hoffa, and Traficante had JFK whacked. But the more research I've done, including this revalation, steers me toward a CIA rogue, RW, Industrial military Complex coup/assasination.
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oldtime dfl_er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #152
197. yes DeMohrenschildt
I've been sitting here trying to remember who it was that had Poppy's name/contact info in his address book. DeMohrenschildt.

I always thought Oswald's statement to the press, "And I do request that somebody come forward" (to help him with his defense) was a very telling way of phrasing his desire for legal assistance. Obviously he expected to be "brought in from the cold". He WAS a patsy.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #197
243. The Baron's address book had contact info for Poppy and LHO
JFK Poppy Dallas Photox


Not many Americans know George Herbert Walker Bush was friends with George de Mohrenschildt, the only man known to have been friends with both Bush and Lee Harvey Oswald.

http://www.lizmichael.com/bushykno.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/ohwhy/Bush.html

Perhaps one day the presstitutes will decide to perform their professional obligations and pick up on it, helping make America fast become a very different place. A place of Laws again.

Heres a website that may be of interest. It's one of the most difficult sites to navigate on the web. It's worth the runaround, with a treasure trove of all things de Mohrenschildt, including letters written to Poppy and documents linking Kissinger to Poppy and de Mohrenschildt.

http://www.ciajfk.com

If the following still work, there's a photo from Dealey Plaza taken a few minutes after the assassination seeming to capture a tall, thin, patrician looking fellah with male pattern baldness and bearing a striking resemblance to the hunched figure of one George Herbert Walker Bush.

http://www.ciajfk.com/images/ghwb.htm

http://www.ciajfk.com/images/ghwb-2.htm

Lets spread the word in our virtual community and in the real world. Lets SINK the BFEE!



BTW: A hearty welcome to DU, oldtime dfl_er! Look forward to reading your posts!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #132
153. If TRUE, this is like a Rosetta Stone of the assassination.
Mr. Hoover advises that his agency is trying to determine whether Hoffa might have been involved laterally or vertically with the Dallas assassination.

Laterally means others knew of the plot, but were working on their own scams. Vertically means someone working on the plot was in that scam's chain-of-command.

This document, if genuine, provides proof the CIA, FBI, SS knew it was a conspiracy. And, as Pallas180 and Merlin noted, the top dogs in the government were doing all they could to make out it was somebody else's fault.

Gee. "Exculpatory Evidence" seems to be as popular as "Plausible Deniability" for spooks.

Then there's the stuff about Oswald of the KGB. McCone seems to make out that Oswald had been one of "us," but he is too flakey to be trusted. The Soviets may've turned him into a "sleeper agent."

Wow. That connects the dots over the previously known Hoover documents stating that very concern, as well as the concern that the Oswald who returned from the USSR wasn't the one the Navy sent in.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #125
151. The doc states when the ARRANGEMENTS were made for Oswald...
...to enter the Soviet Union, not when he actually crossed the border.

The document clearly states that "arrangements were made for his entry into the Soviet Union in September 1959". In October 1959, Oswald actually physically entered the Soviet Union. Therefore, the date of Oswald's entry into the Soviet Union is correctly stated in the document.

===================

As to the classification stamp and why there is no declassification stamp, it is very possible that this may have been a document that was to never intended to see the light of day.

====================

The comments about the mafia being responsible for the assassination is a deliberate red herring. It was designed to cause any subsequent investigation into JFK's death to spend valuable time and resources chasing down leads that went nowhere.

====================

The first two pages of the document appear to have been typed by a secretary or other administrative person. This document is consistent with what I've seen of governmental documents of that time frame...and I've seen quite a few.

The third page signed by McCone appears to have been typed on a different typewriter with a different set of fonts. IMHO, this was apparently created as a personal note from McCone to Rowley. It would have been the last page in the document and would therefore have seen very little in the way of handling. Additionally, the signature page has it's own classification stamp, lending credibility to the idea that this page was prepared separately.
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #125
193. You people here are awesome investigators
You found a needle in a haystack. And what a needle it is! Many, many thanks.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
140. Kick
:kick:
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
143. Assuming this is declassified-
wouldn't this document be available in the Warren Commission's document library records? Seems there should be a document trail to the original report files.

This is an awesome thread....you guys do outstanding work here. I really think DU is turning into it's own media beast....thousands of active contributors and collaborators with a mission to understand the past, in order to illuminate the future.

Nominate this thread for Front Page!
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #143
150. You raise a damn good point!
It looks to me like this is a document that has been recently printed from a microfilmed copy. And it looks like it has not gone through the vetting routine for declassification--unless the original had--because there are no markings on it as on such declassified docs.

So, it's entirely possible this document has been leaked and remains classified.

Of course it's also possible it's a hoax. But what a brilliantly executed hoax!

What I would find astonishing is if it is not a hoax and has been declassified, especially if it has been around for a while. This is of enormous historical import, and may even be the basis of indictments. If genuine, it screams out for reopening the investigation.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #143
173. No.
The FBI and CIA withheld hundreds of documents that only became public when the House investigated JFK and MKL in the late 1970s.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
158. PLEASE READ - This memo supplies missing link: Guy Banister
I'm not sure that anyone else in this thread has fully explained what is perhpaps the most important revelation in this memo if it is authentic -- the connection between Oswald and Guy Banister.

One of the most important "debunking" "facts" in the anti-conspiracy view of the JFK assassination is notion that Oswald did not know Guy Banister and that Guy Banister was not involved in CIA activities by 1963.

I hope this does not get too arcane, but this is absolutely crucial. (If you saw the movie JFK, Guy Banister was played by Ed Asner.) According to the conspiracy theory, he was "running" the Cuban anti-Castro gun running and guerilla training operations out of New Orleans. According to the theory, he and Oswald had offices in the same building, perhaps the same office. Banister, in other words, links Oswald to the CIA and anti-Castro movement.

The anti-conspiracy theory people "prove" that although Banister was an FBI agent from the 1930s to the 1950s, he had retired, then worked for the New Orleans Police Department (NOPD), and after personal/drinking/political problems was fired from NOPD and was working in a failing private detective agency. It is crucial to the orthodox, anti-conspiracy story that Banister and Oswald never met and that Banister, in any event, was not a spook by 1960s.

This memo clearly states:

"After his return to the U.S., Oswald worked in New Orleans through the Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean and Friends of Democratic Cuba; his case officer was SAIC Guy Bannister, from the Chicago FBI office. He was transferred from his assignments there after he was arrested and fined for an incident stemming from his distribution of pamphlets fo the Fair Play for Cuba Committee."


So what is important about this memo is not that Oswald worked for the CIA in Russia, but that Banister was still with the FBI (as SAIC -- presumably something "agent in charge") running anti-Castro operations and that he was Oswald's case officer.

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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #158
159. But it was known that Oswald actually worked out of Bannister's office.
For example, he used Bannister's office address on the FPFC flyers he passed out on the N.O. street corner when he was arrested there.

Seems like the whole document simply validates most of what we've already known. IF IT IS GENUINE!

The email answers I've received so far this morning from personal friends around the world who are JFK experts suggest the document is:
a) new (one saw it on the web a week ago)
b) validates what we "already knew" to be true
c) is most likely a forgery

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #159
163. We know -- but not everyone agrees
Yes it seems obvious that Banister and Oswald were working together, but the official Warren Commission and academic anti-conspiracy theory view is that Banister was no longer a spook and (believe it or not) Banister NEVER MET Oswald.

If this is authentic it proves that Banister was still a special agent in charge with the FBI's anti-Castro operations and that he was Oswald's "case officer."
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
162. Curious - are you a believer in the Grassy Knoll?
I will not entertain any theory that has the Grassy Knoll as a firing position. Ballistics do not work.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #162
168. Don't know, as I wasn't there. People who were...
... reported shots came from that direction, including Ken O'Donnell and Dave Powers. Of course, J Edgar Hoover's FBI told them nothing came from the Grassy Knoll, so they had to sign off on that. Later, they both fessed up to Tip O'Neill, who reported such in his autobiography.

Thank you for your input on the ballistics. I promise to look more closely into that. Regardless, the Grassy Knoll represents a most mysterious place in the murder of President Kennedy. Remember, several people reported a suspicious "policeman" and a "secret service" agent running around back there before and after the assassination.

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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #168
170. Jim Wright (2nd car behind JFK) says he smelled gunpowder...
as he passed the spot where JFK had been hit. That spot is about 40' below and maybe 180' away from the Grassy Knoll fence.

(Mornin' Octa! Feels like I'm back in the {Oliver} Stone age.)
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #170
176. Same for Ralph Yarborough.
The Liberal Democrat Senator from Texas later changed his story, according to DUer Jobycom. Must've been after the FBI helped him understand how important it was for national security (and personal safety) to keep one's wug shut.

(Good day to you, Sir! Today does have a certain renaissance feel...)



I don't know nothin' about no airplane,
because we weren't driving there in a Rambler.
Not that we couldn't fly. But it was raining.



At Patsy School.

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #176
196. OCTA - your post # 176 photograph - the guy bending over
with the black framed glasses. ????

where was this picture taken?

are these Bay of Pigs participants?
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #196
202. Picture was a Civil Air Patrol cookout at Lake Pontchartrain
when Oswald was a teenager and Ferrie was troop leader.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #176
276. Yarborough never changed his story
He said he smelled gunpowder in the air. He also maintained the shots came from above his right shoulder. Said that at first, said in until he died, like most witnesses. He was a good friend of JFK's, and he took great joy in pissing off the Democratic Party. He was a tremendous crusader for the people, and never EVER played ball with the government or either party. It eventually cost him his seat, when both parties (Bush with the Repubs and Bensen with the Dems) teamed up to beat him in the primaries in 1970.

Yarborough would have died before he would have covered up one damn thing, especially about the murder of his friend, and especially since a lot of people blamed him for making JFK come to Texas in the first place. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think he was bought off.

He gets misquoted a lot, as do a lot of witnesses.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #276
279. Thanks for straightening me out. I am truly sorry.
It was not my intention to disparage Sen. Yarborough, who I remember you said was an acquaintance of yours. In re-reading my post, I see how I created the wrong impression and "put words in his mouth" that were mine. From everything I've read, Sen. Yarborough was a leading Liberal voice in the Senate and a most brave man throughout his life. I apologize for any misconception I have created and dispersions on his memory I have caused.

My intention was to explain how many people changed their stories from the days of the assassination because of pressure from LBJ, Warren and the rest of the government -- for the "good of the country." The story at the time was that if the public thought there was a conspiracy behind the murder of JFK -- a Communist conspiracy -- there'd be terrible public pressure to extract revenge. From the way Oswald was set-up, the likely target would be Cuba and Castro. To prevent "World War III," LBJ asked people to serve on the Warren Commission. I extrapolated that pressure to include all members of government, and, by extension, Sen. Yarborough.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #162
184. Those ballistics were proven as possible many times by many experts.
Where do you get your info?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #162
222. Right. Do you believe in Arlen Specter's "single-bullet" theory...
...otherwise known as the "Magic Bullet"?

Just out of curiousity, to what "ballistics" are you referring?
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #222
236. I'm referring to the ballistics disproving the conspiracy.
The magic bullet theory is stupid, childish and impossible.
I'm a member of the Grassy Knoll Society.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #236
260. Question: What about the idea that Connolly turned...
...and that allowed the bullet to line up from Oswald's firing position, through JFK's neck, into Connolly's back (this much is a straight line), then slightly deflect into his arm. In the documentary I saw, it seemed quite plausible and everything lined up with very little deflection of path. Also, bullet fragments removed from the governor's wrist matched the so-called magic bullet.

Is this Arlen Specter's theory? He's the asswipe that Brock talked about in his book, isn't he? What mag does he publish? "American Spectator" or some such?

Disclaimer: I know absolutely nothing about JFK conspiracy theories. I've only seen a few "mainstream media" documentaries on TV...and we all know what they're worth.

If this theory is hogwash, tell me why. It seemed very plausible when explained on Forensic Files. Of course, I have to take the word of so-called "experts."
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
166. Again, this isn't new. I first read it and copied it at least 2 years ago
from Kennedy assassination website. So, it's certainly not a Karl Rove generated document for this election cycle.

Where it came from? Apparently that's an unknown. Could be it's genuine and purloined from secret files. Could be something secretly photocopied before the originals were destroyed.

This is another Riddle Inside a Mystery Wrapped in an Enigma.

BTW, I think the missing word ????? in the transcript is "seldom".
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #166
169. Here's some new info and analysis from a well informed researcher.
(thanks, 2004V, for the missing word)

This is from a copy of an email written yesterday, forwarded by a friend. The research community became aware of this document about a week ago, and there have been many discussions on it.

The author of this is apparently researcher Larry H_____ (note: Dick Russell is author of The Man Who Knew Too Much) (Also note: RIF = JFK Assassination Records Collection Reader identification Number). I have blanked the last names of parties not essential to the document's recent provenance:


...

The earliest original source for the document was "reportedly" an FBI agent in Tennessee who gave a copy to James Moore. This is courtesy of an inquiry by Gary Beulle who did talk with Moore e.g. "I obtained a scanned copy of the document from Jim Moore. He says he got it from a Tennessee FBI man and does not vouch for its authenticity..."

Moore and his copy of the document was the first apparent source and it was Moore who is cited by Dick Russell, although Dick does state that the document is on record in the National Archives....this may be a mistake and hopefully we will hear from Dick himself on it eventually. When exactly this first appearance occurred is not yet document but it was certainly prior to 1992 when TMWKTM was published.

Apparently the document has been posted on the internet within the past two years by Gary Buell without much dialog.

Which brings us to September 2004. Ed T____ received the document from Bill C_____, a long time acquaintance, with a request that it be circulated for comment. He was given only one page initially. Ed was given to understand that the document was in the archives. He send the document to S_____ and when we received it there appears a RIF number associated with it. To this point it is unclear exactly when or where that number came from.....certainly the first thing I did was a NARA search to confirm it was real and in the archives, which of course the number is, but not for this document....sigh.

Stu W___ did a variety of more complex searches on various names and the CO document number which validated that at least the document related to the right Agency and that it was consistent with other Treasury Department documents pertaining to the JFK investigation. Given a RIF number and this corroboration it seemed like a serious find even given some issues with the contents.

While we were doing that various individuals began nay saying it based on content, form, logic and PhotoShop analysis - representing that it was a clear cut and paste job (which by the way is denied by others; the issue of the Confidential stamp also seems to be cleared up by Moore's comment about putting it on himself?).

"By the way, I asked Moore about the Confidential stamp. He says it was not on the original document. He added it, as he said he did to other material in his office at the tabloid, I suppose to say hands-off to his office mates."

As to a second source, James R_____ states he got the document several years ago from a private source making no claims for it but Jamie's impression given his knowledge of the source was that it may well have been created as Agency disinformation at some point and never actually used for that intended purpose. James claims not to have posted it this last week until their was active discussion about it and also states that his version does not have the yellow highlights. Bill Miller claims he took his three page copy from James posting. I claim simply to be clueless.

At this point I have questions in to C_____ inquiring as to why he has stated to various people that he believed it was a document on file at NARA and on where the RIF number originated. I have similar questions to Dick Russell.

I agree with your analysis that the document could very well exist in the records; I also feel that it could either be a) real , b) real with intentional defects to make it deniable and c) a very well prepared disinformation piece with intentional defects which could have been used to divert or obfuscate an earlier investigation. For all I know it could have been based on an actual document destroyed long ago. However based on it's content and on it's CO number, I don't think it's something that could have been done off the cuff without a heck of a lot of background knowledge.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #169
171. Clueless, here!
Thanks a million, Merlin!

I GOOGLED CO-2-34,340 (comma, rather than period) and got a bunch of stuff to pop out.

What the last graph said.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #171
178. Octy, I hate to say it, but...
just got a reply from my good friend Jimmy Di, author of several books, including a bio of Garrison, and host of a Probing assassination web site, who says the conclusion among the powers that be in the research community is that it's a hoax.

He says they concluded this:

"First... the NARA numbers do not match the document.
Also, because of the classification, it woul dnot be just confidential.
Also, McCone's signature on that particular letterhead is weird."

Of course, I've known these guys to be wrong before, but that's evidently their consensus after a week of considering this.

My problem with this conclusion is we're in a box in terms of drawing media attention to it. If we do it now, it could discredit the critical community (which would be the whole point of the hoax, if it is one). If we don't do it now, it becomes "not news" if it has sat around in the public domain for a while.

But I think we've got to leave it alone at least until after this freaking campaign is over. If we don't beat this son-of-a-bitch, we will be giving a green light to the same crowd who pulled off JFK's murder. Not the same in person, but the same in spirit. At least that's my view of it.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #178
180. Agree 100-percent with your assessment of the document and situation.
Like you, my Friend, I want this nation to be a nation of laws once again. To do so:

First we must evict the unelected moron from the White House. The sooner ain't soon enough.

Second we've got to repair the damage he did in four years. The sniveling little psycho may be dumb, but his crooked friends kill even the innocents and steal fast.

Third we've got to get every single bed-wetting BFEE bastid we can find and jail. Otherwise their 40year course will continue to suck the life blood from America.

Simultaneous with the three above, we can do the other Things, principally setting the nation on the proper course and doing what we can to make our nation whole.

Regarding these documents:

In your analysis (post # 169 IIRC), someone who'd first handled the documents reported he put the "confidential" sticker on to keep people from his office from futzing with them.

One last thing: Did you notice on 2004 Victory's Page 3, how there seems to be a "background image"? I can make out what look like horizontal lines and some text, perhaps in CAPs, that look like they once were part of the document.

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #169
172. Thanks a bunch, Merlin!
I trust Dick Russell's judgement. But even if it's disinformation, it's still evidence of a cover-up.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #172
177. That's a very good point, MB
You're absolutely right about disinfo being further evidence of a cover-up.

I've always said if we could find out who pays people like Posner, we could find a path to the cover-up which is still alive and well and living in the US of A.
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #177
179. "if we could find out who pays people like Posner"
Edited on Sat Sep-18-04 12:52 PM by buycitgo
really

makes you wonder what his deal is now, with the 'while america slept' bit

and is he the weirdest looking 'expert' you've seen, or what?

he looks like he came from a another dimension half the time....something 'off' about the way he looks AND speaks
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. Kick
:kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #179
182. Posner's a most unctuous and loud turd of the BFEE.
The guy gets the lion's share of coverage whenver the subject is the JFK assassination. A content analysis of the New York Times 1963 coverage of the 30th anniversary found Posner took up about three-fourths of the editorial space. Meanwhile about two dozen authors split up the remaining quarter. Neat, huh?

Here's something you might enjoy:

The Assassination of John F. Kennedy

A Formal Debate
Fall 1993 -- Virtual Radio Network
Peter Dale Scott vs. Gerald Posner


==========================================

RESOLVED: President Kennedy was killed as the result of a
conspiracy.


http://www.math.unl.edu/~lcharbon/JFK/presentations/deb...

BTW: Really dig the Hieronymous Bosch sculptures, buycitgo! Perhaps Mr. Posner and his friends in the BFEE will get a chance to learn more about them some day.



In the meantime, a little surgery is in order...
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #182
185. Thanks for the link, Octafish!
I hadn't seen that before - Dr Scott kicks that Company shill's ass!

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #185
190. Anytime, Minstrel-san!
Just trying to return a favor owed somewhere, Brother...

DR. PETER DALE SCOTT:

And most of our listeners may not know, but the United States went on a red nuclear alert after that assassination. We were facing the risk of a nuclear war. And Earl Warren, in his memoirs, has said that the reason he took the job he did not want of being head of the Warren Commission was because Johnson persuaded him that the rumors that were around presented the risk of nuclear war. If the rumors had just been lying around "in the streets," they would not have presented any risk at all. The problem was that these rumors were being energetically supported and almost forced on the U.S. government by senior U.S. officials at the heart of the government. You could not have done that if Oswald was a "lone nut" pushing books around in the school book depository and nothing more.

And I may say I have just seen a set of the new declassified documents that have been released this year (1993). And the more we see of this matter, we see how many, literally, *tens* of people were looking at every single Oswald document in the CIA and were magnifying, rather than diminishing, the idea that he might be part of an international communist plot.

CONTINUED...

http://www.math.unl.edu/~lcharbon/JFK/presentations/deb...

Gee. Somebody must've really wanted WWIII. Now who do we know who really likes war, besides the Carlyle Group?


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #190
198. You know my habit of re-posting for emphasis -
"rumors that were around presented the risk of nuclear war..."

"The problem was that these rumors were being energetically supported and almost forced on the U.S. government by senior U.S. officials at the heart of the government."

Hello Joint Chiefs of Staff? Lemnitzer,Mr. Northwoods perhaps, - maybe we should look up who was on the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time - and where was Dulles lurking ?

or was it Lyndon's excuse to divert any attention away from him ?- something he definitely feared..that it would be thought that he was the ONE - in order to gain the presidency.

But,
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #182
228. I talked to Harold Weisberg by phone shortly after "Case Closed"...
...hit the bookstores. Harold told me that prior to Posner's book coming out, he had allowed Posner to search any and all of his files on the JFK assassination. Posner came by one day, spent a couple of hours making a cursory examination of a few of Harold's extensive files, and then left without much comment.

Harold was genuinely angry that Posner could have reached any of the conclusions in his book. Shortly after our conversation, Harold released "Case Open" which absolutely destroyed Posner's book.

Unfortunately, that was the last book Weisberg wrote on the subject of the JFK assassination. His "Whitewash" series, "Post Mortem", and his hard-to-find work on Oswald are real "must-gets" for serious JFK assassination researchers.

RIP, Harold...you are a real American hero.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #228
242. "Case Open" clobbered the shill Posner.
Mr. Weisberg is a True American Hero. He was a researcher working to uncover the Truth. He worked to extend what we know. He made ours a better nation and world.

Posner isn't even in the same game. He is a disinformation specialist. His job is to buy time for the crooks of the BFEE. That's un-American. If this was still a nation of law, he'd be considered a traitor.

If you haven't, you may want to check out what David Talbot writes in Salon.com (may need Day Pass. If you don't want to futz with it, I'll send you a copy tomorrow AM).

The Mother of All Cover-Ups

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/15/warren/ind...

PS: I am honored to be able to post with someone who knew Mr. Weisberg, Media_Lies_Daily.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #242
252. Thanks for your kind note.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
191. In 1979, Richard Helms, Director of the CIA, Admitted Clay Shaw Was CIA
Edited on Sat Sep-18-04 06:51 PM by David Zephyr
1979, Richard Helms, the Director of the CIA, belatedly admitted under oath that Clay Shaw had worked for the CIA. The CIA had denied this after JFK's assassination and undermined Jim Garrison's attempt in court to prove the CIA had orchestrated Kennedy's murder...and that Lee Oswald was just a "patsy".

Octafish, of course, a great number of us have always known that Oswald was CIA, but your story is gratifying.

A. Dulles got away with it.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
195. David Atlee Phillips WAS Maurice Bishop
Edited on Sat Sep-18-04 07:53 PM by Minstrel Boy
The anti-Castro leader of Alpha 66, Antonio Veciana, was sponsored by the CIA, and his contact was an agent he knew as "Maurice Bishop."

In early September, 1963, in Dallas, Veciana met "Bishop" in the company of Lee Harvey Oswald.

"Bishop" was David Atlee Phillips, then-head of the CIA's Mexico City operations, and later the chief of covert ops for the Western Hemisphere.

Establishing that Bishop was Phillips is the subject of much of House Select Committee on Assassinations' investigator Gaeton Fonzi's The Last Investigation.

An update from the "Real History Archives":

Gaeton Fonzi has written a book that details his search for Maurice Bishop called The Last Investigation. To Fonzi's detailed summary of reasons that David Atlee Phillips was indeed the Maurice Bishop that Veciana saw with Oswald, there is a more recent addition. In the back of his updated paperback version of Conspiracy, Anthony Summers tells of Jim Hougan's talk with CIA agent Frank Terpil. Jim Hougan will be familiar to Probe readers from our last issue. He's the author of the best book on Watergate, Secret Agenda.

Hougan got to know Terpil rather well while making a PBS documentary about him. In a tape-recorded interview, Hougan asked why Terpil was going on and on about David Phillips and the AFIO. Among other things, Terpil alleged (as have others) that Phillips' "retirement" from the CIA was phony, and that he continued to work for the CIA through the AFIO. Hougan asked Terpil why he kept talking about Phillips-was it personal, or political? Political, Terpil replied. Hougan asked where Terpil and Phillips had met. Terpil's answer is astonishing, and terribly important. Terpil had met him in Florida while living there with Hal Hendrix's daughter. Really? Asked Hougan. Yeah, said Terpil, Phillips used to come around with Hal Hendrix, but he wasn't using his real name. He was using an alias. What alias? Bishop, Terpil said, Something Bishop. Maurice Bishop? Hougan asked. Yeah, Terpil replied, Maurice Bishop. Hougan wanted to be sure Terpil wasn't putting him on, but came away convinced that Terpil did not understand the significance of what he was saying and that Terpil was answering honestly. Hougan asked how Terpil knew Bishop was Phillips. Terpil said he had run Bishop through the agency's file system in the CIA's Miami headquarters to find out who this Bishop character was. The name that came out: David Atlee Phillips.
http://www.realhistoryarchives.com/collections/hidden/b...


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #195
199. OCTA De Bruey. The De Bruey Memorandum
Mc Cone (allegedly) writes to Rowley of the Secret Service:


"He (Hoover)is particularly concerned about the DeBruey memorandum, which Central Intelligence has obtained and which, I understand, you have obtained. It is imperative that this information, at least for the time, remain under wraps.


"At the time of the Dallas action, the Oswald subject was only ???? ?? in our employ; after the Soviet assignment, we found him to be unreliable and emotionally unstable. He was of little use to us after his marriage and De Bruey, from what I understand, concurs in this. He was provided with a few unimportant infiltration assignments and proved of little or no value."

=========

So was De Bruey CIA, FBI, or Secret Service ?

And there is no history of a De Bruey in google. not 1963, not FBI,
not New Orleans, not de Breuy

Who was De Bruey?

And what was in the memorandum that concerned them so much?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #199
203. Mark North, "Act of Treason" -- Debrueys is DYNAMITE!
This Texas attorney put together a darn good case against J Edgar Hoover as being a co-conspirator -- at the least the guy turned a blind eye to some warnings. I failed to check his book against this "new" memo. Here's what North found Hoover to have entered in his diary regarding "Warren Debrueys, the local (FBI) case officer in charge of political groups." Bet this guy knows how to write a heck of a memo.

From
Act of Treason
by Mark North
pp. 294-295

8/8/63 -- THURSDAY: Oswald is reportedly seen in Orst Pena's bar (Pena is an FBI informant) with an Hispanic individual. "Pena claimed after the assassination that Oswald had been in his bar -- one night just before the fracas inthe street with Bringuier and the anti-Castro Cubans." He is also supposedly seen various times this summer in thecompany of FBI agent Warren De Brueys, the local case officer in charge of political groups. Debrueys will deny ever being with Oswald. The ex-Marine is, however, classified by the local field office in the political/subversive groups file. At the least, Debrueys is aware of him and has undoubtedly read his file.

End of Quote

Gee. A problem that seems to run throughout the history of the FBI. Sounds like the FBI knew about Oswalds, um, activities and didn't send a heads-up phone call to Secret Service.

North makes another mention of Debrueys and "Quigley" in regards to Oswald's radio interview in which he discusses American policy toward Cuba. North believes either Quiqley or Debrueys fed radio host William Stuckey background info on Oswald. One can only imagine what that was.



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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #203
206. Hoover hated the Kennedys, if he knew he must've put on his best dress &
gone out dancing...that toad.

The worst of the country seems to have been in government from WW2, and of course there are those who say long before.

There have been so many "sotto voce" battles that we're just becoming aware of.

I guess every new generation has to become aware.

But we have one thing, no other generation has ever had.

THIS

the internet.

God Bless Al Gore.. :)
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #206
207. Amen, Pallas180! God Bless President Gore!
Hoover was so concerned about solving the JFK murder he and the FBI's number 2 Clyde Tolson spent 23 November 1963 at the horse races. Must've been having a sit-down with Frank Costello in the men's room to figure out the Trifecta.

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gofordean Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
200. Kick...Keep this going
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AlFrankenFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
201. oh god
i'm very shocked. i can't believe it...
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
204. Info on Warren DeBrueys, FBI Agent
From "Who's Who in the JFK Assassination":

According to Jim Garrison, DeBrueys was involved with Banister, Ferrie and anti-Castro Cubans during summer 1963. Debrueys monitored Oswald's activities during this period. He was also the agent who took Oswald's possessions from Dallas to Washington for analysis. Garrison subpoenaed DeBrueys, but he pleaded executive privilege and refused to testify at the Shaw trial.

This from Garrison's Playboy interview in October 1967:

"DeBrueys was involved with the anti-Castro activities in New Orleans ... I'd like to find out the exact nature of DeBrueys' relationship with Lee Oswald. As long as Oswald was in New Orleans, so was DeBrueys. When Oswald moved to Dallas, DeBrueys followed him. After the assassination, DeBrueys returned to New Orleans. This may all be coincidence, but I find it interesting that DeBrueys refuses to cooperate with our office -- significant and frustrating, because I feel he could shed considerable light on Oswald's ties to anti-Castro groups."
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #204
208. Thanks 04V - If Oswald took pics of the assassins & the act, we'll
never know --- take a look at this (it helps an awful lot that you gave me the correct name :)


http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/minox.htm

when you click on the site, there are pictures from rolls of film found with the camera (but not reprinted in what I have posted).....but not of the roll that was IN THE CAMERA - The FBI tried to get the cops who found the camera to say they were mistaken....they refused to...and refused to change their records.. You all will like this. (have you seen it before?)



Oswald's Spy Camera

A Minox Spy Camera


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While searching the contents of Lee Oswald's sea bag on the day after the assassination, Detectives Gus Rose and Richard Stovall discovered a Minox camera. Opening the camera, Rose discovered a roll of film inside it and recorded it in his inventory of items taken from the Paine house:

On November 26, 1963, two days after Oswald's death, Dallas police turned over the evidence to the FBI who took charge of the investigation. Every piece of evidence was cataloged, and signed for by FBI Agent Warren DeBrueys.




However, the FBI contacted Rose and Stovall and informed them that there was no camera, just a Minox light meter. They pressured the detectives to change their inventory. According to Rose's HSCA deposition:

We found this camera and of course, we brought it and a whole lot of other property in, as possible evidence in the case. And uh, while we were marking the evidence for later identification by us to be used in evidence we did, Stowall and I, did take a close look at this Minnox minature camera and it did have a roll of film in it. As time passed and after the Warren Commission was appointed, uh, a couple of F.B.I. agents made three different trips to our office to talk to me about this camera. They said that after they had received all the property they found that I had made a mistake, and that that really wasn't a camera, it was a Minnox light meter. However, as I told them at the time, I was sure that I had not made a mistake, it definitely was a camera and definitely did have film in it. However, they wanted me to change that in our property invoice to read Minnox light meter and not read Minnox camera. We never did change it. Uh, Captain Fritz instructed me if I was sure I was right not to make any changes in any reports, to stay with what was right.

Several weeks after the assassination, the FBI also contacted Dallas Police property manager H. W. Hill, who complied with their request and made the notation on the property invoice. It is that altered copy that appears in the Warren Commission exhibits.


Dallas Assistant District Attorney William Alexander also confirms the existence of the Minox camera found in Oswald's sea bag:

The FBI denied the existence of a very small pocket Minox camera found among Oswald's belongings. We picked up a Minox camera which had some film in it and turned it over to the FBI. Despite their denials, claiming it was a light meter, I examined it, and I know a camera when I see one. We had the Minox camera and that was all there was to it! In those days, a Minox camera probably cost around $200. What inference can be drawn from it? Who knows, unless he was an intelligence buff and had bought it through a PX. Obviously, it leads to speculation about his being involved in some kind of intelligence.

(Larry Sneed's No More Silence pg. 551)

Finally, here is a page from a Dallas Police log book showing that they turned over a Minox camera to the FBI:


The November 25, 1963 Memo

On the day before the FBI officially took possession of the evidence, the FBI requested a comparison of the Minox film recovered from the possessions of Lee Harvey Oswald with another roll of Minox film, designated Q5.


Note: LOCFAB ESP-R stands for LOCATION FOREIGN AGENTS BUREAU ESPIONAGE RUSSIA.

Item 377 on Property report G-11193 dated November 26, 1963 shows "two rolls apparently exposed Minox film":


These two rolls of Minox film (#377) appear to belong to the Paines, and are photographs of their European vacation. The FBI did not take possession of these films until 11/26/63. Therefore, the film recovered from Oswald's possessions on or before November 25th must be the roll of film recovered from the Minox camera found in Oswald's sea bag.

The Minox film belonging to the Paines was found in Minox containers that held two rolls of film. In the DPD evidence photo, a loose roll of Minox film can be seen by the case and name tags. The FBI returned the Minox case and name tags to Ruth Paine, but inexplicably, they were not part of the November 26th transfer. I believe the FBI had taken possession of these items (case, name tags, roll of film as well as the light meter that was substituted for the Minox camera) before the 25th of November. It is my opinion that this roll of film that came from Oswald's camera, and was the film the FBI lab compared to sample Q-5.

The Search for the Paine's Minox

On January 30, 1964, J. Edgar Hoover sent a memorandum to the Dallas SAC ordering an investigation into the matter of the missing Minox. It was the official position of the bureau that no Minox was recovered from the Paine house, but yet there was film and accessories that indicated that such a camera existed.


That same day, Ruth Paine was contacted and informed the Dallas office that her husband did own a Minox camera, but that it was no longer working. According to a report dated January 31, 1964 by SA Bardwell Odum:

He {Paine} owns a Minox camera and that camera is at his home in Irving, Texas. Several years ago he dropped this camera in salt water off the coast of Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and after retrieving it, soaking it in kerosine and cleaning same, it appeared to be in good working condition. Thereafter, someone bent the shutter by pulling the lens out too far, and, to the best of his knowledge, it is not now in working condition. He stated that he did have some cans of film, and that some of them were probably exposed film, but that the pictures made on this film were at least five years old. He stated that he had a case for the camera and other accessories including a light meter. He stated that when the police came to his house on November 22, 1963, they took the entire contents on a drawer containing photographic equipment which included the items mentioned above with the exception of the camera. He stated that this camera was in his garage at that time and that although he mentioned the camera to the police, they did not seem interested in it. He stated that he is sure LEE HARVEY OSWALD never used this camera, and he is of the opinion that it is not in working condition at the present time. Mr. Paine stated he had no knowledge of a 'no admittance' sign which was picked-up by the police at his residence. He stated this sign is not his and he has never seen it before." FBI DL 100-10461

A Minox III camera, serial number 27259, was turned over to the FBI on January 31, 1964, and was given the designation D-80.

The inventory shows that the camera was acquired from Ruth Paine, as does CD 385 and CD 735. However, Ruth Paine later stated that she does not ever recall giving the camera to the FBI. Another FBI document, also dated January 31, 1964, shows that the camera was given to the FBI by Michael Paine.

What happened to the Paine Minox??? According to Michael Paine, the camera was returned to him shortly after the assassination and was eventually stolen along with his other photographic equipment about five years later.


Marina's HSCA Testimony

When Marina Oswald Porter appeared before the House Select Committee on Assassinations, she was shown two Minox cameras and asked if she had ever seen either one before. One of the cameras, a model III with no serial number, came from the National Archives. The other Minox, described as a model I, serial #S2339303:


Q. This exhibit here which is identified as FBI exhibit D-80, does this look familiar to you?
A. No.
Q. And this camera here which is a Minox 1 :3.5 F-15 millimeter with the serial No. S2339303, does this look familiar to you?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see any of the cameras before you in the possession of Lee?
A. I do not recall now at all the camera we used to have. The camera could be here but I would not recognize it at all.
Q. You just don't remember?
A. No.
Q. If I show you this camera which was Commission exhibit No. 750 and raise the top part so you can see there is a viewfinder and ask you just to look at the camera, would that refresh your recollection that that was the camera you allegedly took the photographs of Lee with?
A. Well, I honestly do not remember if I look straight at the object or look down.
Q. But seeing the camera today you still have no memory of what the camera looked like?
A. No; I am sorry I am unprofessional about it.
Q. Whatever your memory is, that is what we want to find out. A. I definitely never saw that before.
Q. Which are you referring to?
A. These two little ones.
Q. The record should note that she is referring to the Minox camera which is D-80 and the other Minox camera which is identified on the record as Minox 1 :3.5.
A. And by that I mean in my possession or Lee's possession.
Q. You never saw a camera like that?
A. No.


After some unrelated testimony about Lee Oswald's photography, Mr. Wolf returns to the subject of the two Minox cameras:

Mr. WOLF. Back on the record.
We are going to take a lunch break. At the current time it is approximately 12:40.
I would also like to state on the record that regarding the cameras that Mrs. Porter examined previously, concerning the two Minox cameras, so there is no confusion on the record, the Minox which was not part of the material in the National Archives and which has serial No. 2339303 is approximately 1 1/2 inches longer than the one which is currently in the National Archives.
At this time we will take a break for lunch.



There are several things to note in this exchange. First of all, the Minox III was referred to as exhibit D-80, which was the designation given to Michael Paine's Minox. But supposedly, D-80 had been returned to Paine, and by this time had been stolen. Could it be that the Oswald Minox became D-80 once the Paine Minox had been released from evidence??? Or was the wrong camera released to Michael Paine??? One thing's for certain, there is a Minox III in the Archives today.

But what of the other Minox displayed to Marina??? A model I would be the same size as a model III, not 1 1/2 inches longer. The only Minox to match that description would be a Model C, which was produced between 1969 and 1978.


Top Minox III - Bottom Minox C

A check of the serial number 2339303 proves that the camera is indeed a Minox C, a camera first manufactured six years after the assassination, and the current production model at the time of the HSCA. (Serial numbers for the model C range between 2300101 and 2473694). Why would the House Select Committee ask Marina to identify a camera that couldn't have possibly belonged to her husband???


The Minox in the Archives Photo Courtesy of John Armstrong

In February 1999, I had the pleasure of discussing this matter by telephone with John Armstrong. I asked John if he could determine what model Minox was in the Archives, and after consulting one of his photographs of the Archives camera, he informed me that it was in fact a model III. The camera was housed in a ammo box, and was identified as DL-3, and not D-80. He then told me that when he handled the camera, it was far heavier than a Minox should be. When he tried to look inside the camera to check its serial number, he found that it had been filled with some substance that prohibited its being fully opened. Perhaps this explains why Mr. Wolf did not state the serial number of the Minox III when he showed it to Marina.

Since the serial number is located inside the Minox where the film is loaded (see photo below), the FBI had to open the camera to determine the Paine's Minox was #27259. And we know that Detective Rose opened the Minox he discovered in Oswald's sea bag and found a roll of film inside. That seems to indicate that the camera in the Archives has been sealed shut after it had been taken into evidence.

However, a check of Minox serial numbers shows that camera #27259 should be a Model II Minox, not the Model III that the FBI claimed they received from the Paine's. (Model II serial numbers ranged from 20379 to 31500 while Model III serial numbers started with 31275 and ended with 58499).The Model II, first manufactured in 1948, was never officially imported or sold in the United States.

Bardwell Odum's 1/31/64 report states that Paine's Minox was not working at that time because "...someone bent the shutter by pulling the lens out too far, and, to the best of his knowledge, it is not now in working condition." What is interesting about this description of the damage is that the lens can not be "pulled out" since it is contained within the camera, but the rear element of the lens does move back and forth inside the film chamber as the film is advanced and the shutter is cocked.

Technical note: the rear element of the lens actually presses up against the film as the photo is taken. When you advance the film by pulling the camera apart, the lens moves away from the film to allow it to move freely. One of the differences between a Minox II and a Minox III is the lens itself. The model II had a five element lens which sometimes caused scratches on the film because it extended a fraction too deep into the film chamber. Minox replaced the lens on the model III with a four element design which did not extend quite as far into the film chamber, allowing the film to advance freely without scratches.

Could this actually be the problem Michael Paine described to the FBI??? If the lens jammed in the picture taking position, it could conceivably prevent the advance mechanism from operating. This would be consistent with the damaged camera presently in the Archives. If the camera in the Archives is the Paine camera, and that camera was jammed shut when Michael Paine turned it over to the FBI in 1964, then the serial number recorded on Odum's inventory is a fabrication. Keep in mind that the the number 27259 traces back to a model II, not a model III like the Paine camera. Could it be that #27259 was actually a model II found among Oswald's possessions by Detective Rose???


A. J. Weberman and the Minox Photos

In 1978, researcher A. J. Weberman obtained copies of the Minox photos under an FOIA request. According to Weberman:

"The two rolls of Minox film that were taken with Michael Paine's Minox camera contained photos of a trip to Europe. The roll that was not taken with Michael Paine's camera seem to have been photographed in either Qemoy or Matsu. The photographs depicted several Marines horsing around on a large military vessel; a shot a tanker and LST-845P, shots of an island from offshore; shots entering a harbor; Asian children walking past a heavily fortified military base; a Chinese funeral passing the perimeter of the base, and a photo of OSWALD with an M-16."


Gerry Hemming and the Minox Photos

In January 1999, I received photocopies of the Minox photos from the National Archives. Each sheet of paper had one photo on it, except for one page. The main photo on that page appears to be one of the offshore photos that Weberman described with a couple of Marines in the foreground. Included on that page are two additional photos showing a serviceman wearing the same kind of hat as one of the Marines in the main photo.


Immediately, it struck me that the serviceman bore a resemblance to Gerry Patrick Hemming. The notion that Oswald might have taken photos of Hemming with his Minox while still overseas bore serious implications. After posting the photos on the JFK Research Forum, I heard from a well-respected researcher who suggested that I contact Hemming, who had learned about the photos from Noel Twyman.


Hemming's Story

Shortly afterwards, I spoke to Hemming who acknowledged that he was familiar with Minox photos of him, but that they were not taken by Oswald. He informed me that Howard Davis had a Minox, and used it to take photos of their camps. It was Davis who took the photos in question.

Hemming told me that the Minox camera found in Oswald's sea bag originally came from Life reporter Richard Billings, who later authored the HSCA report and co-authored Robert Blakey's The Plot to Kill the President. Billings, who reported on the commando raids for Life magazine, gave the Minox to Hemming to photograph their various missions. Hemming in turn gave the camera to Eddie Bayo who disappeared with nine commandos while on a raid into Cuba. Hemming refused to speculate on how the Minox got from Bayo to Oswald.

Hemming did speculate that the military photos were not taken overseas, but more likely they were photos taken during one of their Cuba missions. Hemming did claim that Oswald did possess a Minox while he was stationed at El Toro, and that he used it to take photos at the Cuban Consulate in Monterey Park. Hemming said that he knows that Oswald did not take that camera to Russia, but he has no idea what happened to that camera.


Assessment of the Facts


If the FBI story that Oswald did not possess a Minox is true, then that means:

Rose and Stovall were wrong when they claimed they found a Minox in Oswald's sea bag.
Assistant District Attorney Alexander was wrong when he said that he handled the Minox camera found by Dallas Police.
Agent DeBrueys was wrong when he identified item 375 as a Minox camera.
Agent DeBrueys and Dallas Police property manager H. W. Hill both signed the inventory showing a Minox camera. The exchange of evidence was also witnessed by Captain J. M. English as well as FBI agents Hosty and Howe. Not one of these experienced law enforcement agents noticed that the inventory was wrong.
Michael Paine was wrong when he reported that his camera had been returned to him shortly after the assassination.


There are several disturbing issues that point to evidence manipulation:

The FBI memorandum concerning the comparison of the films indicates that the FBI had possession of the Minox films on November 25, 1963, the day before they officially took possession of the evidence.
Although the film had been processed and compared to Q5 by December 4, 1963, Hoover's January 30th teletype claimed that the FBI laboratory presently maintained "two containers with exposed Minox film..."
Conflicting reports as to whether Michael or Ruth Paine actually gave the camera to the FBI.
Introduction of a bogus Minox C into the evidence.
John Armstrong's claim that the Minox camera in the Archives has been rigged not to open.
Here are links to the various documents:

Rose's handwritten evidence sheet of items taken from the Paine house.
DPD typed inventory of items taken from the Paine house.
Property report G-11192 showing Minox camera and signed by Warren DeBrueys.
Property report G-11193 showing Minox film and signed by Warren DeBrueys.
G. W. Hill's statement that he changed G-11192 at the request of the FBI.
FBI comparison of the Minox films.
Hoover teletype asking Dallas office to look for the Minox camera.
FBI report stating that Michael Paine turned over Minox camera.
FBI inventory showing Minox as exhibit D-80.
Gus Rose's HSCA deposition dealing with the Minox.
Go to the next page for more info about the disappearance of Oswald's Minox. Very important.

Click Here to see an actual copy made by a Minox
Click Here for a demonstration of the size of a Minox camera.
Return to Home Page
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #208
211. For emphasis...
Thanks you both. Great work and much appreciated!



Several weeks after the assassination, the FBI also contacted Dallas Police property manager H. W. Hill, who complied with their request and made the notation on the property invoice. It is that altered copy that appears in the Warren Commission exhibits.

BTW: Wouldn't this be considering tampering with evidence? Obstruction of justice? Treason?


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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #211
215. Everyone knew at the time it was a cover up- So what were they going to do
accuse ex Chief Justice of The Supreme Court Earl Warren of lying?

We believed in our government then. Remember it was the beginning of
Viet Nam, and JFK was going to pull the "advisors" out..then he died. .By the end of Viet Nam we never trusted our own government again...although it came close with Big Dawg...but even Big Dawg got us into WTO which he thought was a good thing Did anybody understand it then ? nope. Internet. We are so much smarter because we can talk to each other and share thoughts...and fill in spaces for each other.


they really figure no one will be enraged at the killing of a beloved president if they let out the info 45 years later.

Hey. I was in college. I remember JFK. I remember the agony of his
assassination and the four days of the funeral.

And people were in shock....it was four days of crying. At the time they could not comprehend our own govt would do such a thing.

How stupid they are. Has anybody forgotten Lincoln or his assassination? even though there were not the communications of radio and tv we had when JFK was murdered.

How could they expect JFK to go by the wayside?

Google : Treason Law

you'll find it interesting, that if the person who committed treason dies before it's found out, all the riches they amassed cannot be taken away from the heirs......

but if charged and tried before death, he couldn't keep the fortune amassed from the wrongdoing.

there's not much time to make that family broke.

Unless we get that dumbass and his cronies on the WTC
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #211
217. Hale Boggs
involved with "those" people since 1948 ---
Hale Boggs' involvement in 1948 with a United Europe group whose membership included William Donovan, former head of the OSS, and Allen Dulles, future head of the CIA.


represented New Orleans

died in mysterious plane crash in Alaska - same air carrier dumbya worked for that summer in Alaska.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #211
218. Fer xsakes-when they ordered him to infiltrate Fair For Cuba, they
were setting him up back then--- early 1963, he started with the FAir For Cuba thing in April 63 ----what happened , what did JFK do in early 63? When did he start getting serious about enforcing civil rights in the South.....xrist...Oswald made one trip to Alabama.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/weberman/nodule11.htm
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #218
219. I'd like to look at who was a big honcho in government at that time:
you had :

Dulles,
McFarlane
Hoover
Lemnitzer

Nixon (by the way, Kitty Kelly's book shows that Nixon was Pappy's mentor. Pappy lost every election he tried for. Couldnt get into Congress. never did get into any position of any meaning until Nixon named him either Ambassador to the UN or head of CIA (dont think it was CIA yet - think that was later in the late 70's...dont have book in front of me.

]We need to look at the honchos who wanted to use this as an excuse to nuke Russia. The people who ordered it -who Johnson said were "after Russia" and in the heart of the govt. not the people who carried it out although...E. Howard Hunt was one on the grassy knoll - there's no doubt about that - and E. Howard Hunt was one of Nixon's plumbers....

therefore - that's a strong tie to Nixon.- then in Nixon's term, the
Joint Chiefs were spying on him.....

Okay..can anyone find the names of all the Joint Chiefs in 1960 to 63?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #219
226. Here's a couple of links to the history of the JCS...
History of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
<http://www.dtic.mil/jcs/core/history.html >

The Acrobat Reader is required for viewing Adobe Acrobat (*.pdf) files.

--------------------------------------------

Leader of The Joint Staff Past and Present
<http://www.dtic.mil/jcs/core/previous.html >

--------------------------------------------

And just for fun, read this on Operation Northwoods...some familiar names here:

Pentagon Proposed Pretexts for Cuba Invasion in 1962<http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430 />

Excerpt:

In his new expos of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington, including sink a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated), faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a Remember the Maine incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #219
234. And who was Nixon's mentor?
Nazi supporter and collaborator Prescott Bush......what a small world.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #208
213. Oh yeah. This gets worse:
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 12:06 AM by Pallas180

http://scribblguy.50megs.com/torbitt6.htm

We shall return to Ruby, Ferrie and their activities, but now is as good a time as any to add one more piece of evidence to the mountain of such inculpating the Defense Industrial Security Command. Gary Underhill, a CIA agent with Walter Kostow and Harold R. Isaacs at the Center for International Studies at MIT, told friends in early 1964 in New York that a group within the U.S. Intelligence agencies had planned and brought about the death of John Kennedy and that he was going to expose them.

A few days later he was found dead in his apartment in Washington, D.C., a bullet in his head behind his left ear - but Underhill was right handed.

==================
apparently, I'm guessing, Gary Underhill spoke to someone he trusted back in Washington. And was wrong to trust.
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Clinton Crusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
221. I really have doubts this is legit
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 09:52 AM by Clinton Crusader
Someone sent me an email about this and also included 'new" and 'astounding' revelations from Jack Ruby, but they were NOT new nor astounding. It's the 'presser' he had while under arrest saying (paraphrased) "the people responsible have so much to gain and have such alterior motives, etc."

That's not new at ALL, Ive had that on tape for years and years.

This doesnt look real to me. The word "Memorandum" doesnt fit from 1964.

Just my opinion.

Also, maybe Im wrong, and Im perfectly willing to say, but Ive read MILES and MILES on this subject and I dont remember anyone ever saying Oswald was in CHINA. Atsugi Japan, yes, he def. was. But I dont recall China.

On EDIT I want to add that JFK was definitely shot from the front (head shot), and the photo analysis that came to light in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" showing a Dallas police officer ON the knoll, with what looks like a rifle up to his face, was the first thing in many mnay years that made my jaw hang open. Perfect cover, if you ask me. I believe, after years of reading, tha Oswald was indeed an operative of some kind and def. the fall guy or patsy, as he DID say. While some think the theories in the movie "JFK" are far fetched, I do not. The cop on the knoll is also included in the movie. I think Oswald was a low level informant, who was used as the patsy, and he realized that when he left the Depository, found out JFK was dead, and now he was in mortal danger. WHY he didnt spill the beans, I still dont know, or maybe he did and those notes were never kept or even written. This is going out on a limb, but I never believed JD Tippit to be the innocent bystander cop they portray him to be.

Ive seen the autopsy photos and x rays and they DO NOT MATCH what you see in the Z film.

flame away, lol.
:kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #221
225. Great post.
According to this new/old real/fake memo, Oswald helped analyze stuff from China. Atsugi was known for U-2 overflights of the USSR, but no one, from my recollection, had mentioned it being the base of operations for mainland China. I should have automatically made that connection, but seeing it in print made the memo somehow seem more authentic. That could be intentional.

Regarding where we are in the JFK investigation: I want to go past the facts of what happened in Dealey Plaza. The facts spell out conspiracy. I want to stop the BFEE before the complete their campaign to bring a New Feudalism in what little time we have before these NAZI's take over.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
223. Another CIA leak to get even with Bushie?
tia
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #223
227. Great thinks mind alike.
My hope, as well.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #223
229. My thoughts exactly. I bet there's a lot more where that came from.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
230. "it doesn't bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders".



"There are no innocent civilians..., so it doesn't bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders".

General Curtis E. LeMay, US Air Force Chief of Staff (1961 - 1965), Vice Presidential running mate of George Wallace, National Journal, 11/26/94

===========

Now here's a good suspect. In addition to Gen. Lemnitzer.

And one of the Joint Chiefs Generals during JFK's time in office, right?


But what we are looking for, is who were Junior officers under people like Le May and Lemnitzer then who would now be of the age to be Generals and in power in govt. now ?

Any idea where to find that out?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #230
231. "Without censorship things can get terribly 'confused' in the public mind"
"Without censorship, things can get terribly 'confused' in the public mind."

General William Westmoreland, Commander U.S. and United Nations (UN) forces in Vietnam (and illegally invading Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and narcotrafficing), TIME Magazine's Man of the Year (1966)
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #231
232. "Hijacking attampts against US civil air .. craft should be encouraged"
JCS to Secretary of War Robert McNamara
March 13, 1962

"Hijacking attampts against US civil air and surface craft should be encouraged."
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #232
233. Does this sound familiar?
From the Northwoods and Mongoose Plan

One idea was to create a war between Cuba and another Latin American country so that the United States could intervene.

http://www.geocities.com/united_airlines_175/
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #230
235. Remember this was over 40 years ago -- Jr. Officers geriatric or dead.
Like General Ed Lansdale of "General Y" fame in Oliver Stone's JFK. According to Col. Fletcher Prouty, Lansdale was photographed in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 passing by the Three Tramps as they were marched to the courthouse.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #235
237. Are you kidding me? Jr. Officers are dead or geriatric???? LOL
rofl.

you must be very very young. If they were 19, 20, 25 forty years
ago they would neither be geriatric or dead...

<grinning> you think 62 - 65 is geriatric or dead or alzheimered?

Better take another look at those bastids Kissinger and Rockefeller in their 80's and 90's and still running things.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #237
238. Ok think about this -Rumsfeld is 75-40 years ago he was 35
prime, huh?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #238
240. oops - was rumsfeld in the govt in the early 60's ?
.

what about Cheney?
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #240
245. Hey Pallas, Rummy was in the House in '62
Donald Henry Rumsfeld (born July 9, 1932) became the 21st Secretary of Defense of the United States in 2001. Before that, he had a long career in private industry and public service.

Born in Chicago, Illinois, he attended Princeton University on scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the United States Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator. He went to Washington, DC, in 1957, during the Eisenhower Administration, to serve as Administrative Assistant to a Congressman. After a stint with an investment banking firm, he was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives from Illinois in 1962, at the age of 30, and was re-elected in 1964, 1966, and 1968.

Rumsfeld resigned from Congress in 1969 during his fourth term to serve in the Nixon Administration as:


Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Assistant to the President, and a member of the President's Cabinet (1969-1970);
Counsellor to the President, Director of the Economic Stabilization Program;
member of the President's Cabinet (1971-1972).

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/d/do/don...

I'll see if what I can dig up on Cheney.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #245
247. Here's Cheney's bio
Richard Bruce Cheney (born January 30, 1941) is an American politician and businessman affiliated with the U.S. Republican Party. He is currently serving as the 46th Vice President of the United States under George W. Bush.

"Dick" Cheney was born in Lincoln, Nebraska. He grew up in Casper, Wyoming, and earned his bachelor's and master's of arts degrees from the University of Wyoming. He is married to his highschool sweetheart Lynne Cheney, an author and college teacher. They have grown daughters, Elizabeth and Mary, and three granddaughters.

He began serving the Nixon administration in 1969, serving in a number of positions at the Cost of Living Council, at the Office of Economic Opportunity, and within the White House. Under President Gerald Ford, Cheney became Assistant to the President and White House Chief of Staff.

In 1977 he was elected to represent Wyoming in the United States House of Representatives, and was re-elected five times. He was Chairman of the Republican Policy Committee from 1981 to 1987. He was elected Chairman of the House Republican Conference in 1987 and elected House Minority Whip in 1988.

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/d/di/dic...

Brainyencyclopedia is pretty good. They mentioned Cheney's PNAC involvement. And did you see Kissinger's quote about Rumsfeld?

"Donald Rumsfeld is the most ruthless man I have ever met".

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #247
257. Thanks RP. Kissinger calling Rumsfeld ruthless is laughable - good
find
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #257
277. Yeah. Wouldn't it be something if Rummy and Oswald...
were both ONI Class of '57? I've tried googling, but I think Rummy's pretty good at hiding past dirt. Part of that ruthless quality Kissoff loves.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #245
256. That fruitcake with nuts Rummy must have been a part of BFEE from 54 -
it would have been interesting to find out if he was ONI from the get go.

The Navy Chief of Staff, wasn't that Lemnitzer seemed to be the pushers of the nutty ideas.

He was in Nixon's staff and Ford's.

Yup. he knew the ropes.

We ought to google his connection to Pappy. How is it he ends up
with Junior? there's a trail there.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #256
274. You'll like this article title: The Rumsfeld Intelligence Agency
The Rumsfeld Intelligence Agency
How the hawks plan to find a Saddam/al-Qaida connection.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Monday, Oct. 28, 2002, at 2:42 PM PT

You've got to hand it to Donald Rumsfeld and his E-Ring crew at the Pentagon. They know all the stratagems of bureaucratic politics, and they play the game well. In their latest maneuver, reported on the front page of last Thursday's New York Times, the secretary of defense has formed his own "four- to five-man intelligence team" to sift through raw data coming out of Iraq in search of evidence linking Saddam Hussein to al-Qaida terrorists.

Rumsfeld has publicly continued to push this link as a primeor at least the most easily sellablerationale for going to war with Iraq, even after the CIA and the Pentagon's own Defense Intelligence Agency have dismissed the connection as tenuous at best. But Rumsfeld contends that the spy bureaucracies may have missed something. As his top team member, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul D. Wolfowitz, put it to the Times, there is "a phenomenon in intelligence work that people who are pursuing a certain hypothesis will see certain facts that others won't, and not see other facts that others will." Since Wolfowitz is one of Washington's most forceful advocates of a second Gulf War, we can safely predict that he will find the facts he needs to make his case.

It is an old story that bears the same lesson each time a new chapter unfolds: Intelligence analysis should be kept out of the hands of those who have a vested interest in the results.

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073238



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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #237
248. Young in mind only. I was in high school when JFK assassinated.
It just seems to me that 19 or 20 year olds are not Jr. Officers in the Pentagon attached to the Joint Chiefs. In the first place, you'd have to be 21 or 22 to be out of the military academies, and then do a tour or two overseas before you ever got a prime assignment to the Pentagon -- and the chances that a young officer would be in any position to have sensitive information is hard for me to believe. Those aides to the Joint Chiefs would have been seasoned officers, Colonels and Majors and the like -- and these guys are likely of advanced years by now, if still alive. The Lemnitzers and LeMays died 15 to 20 years ago and they were in their late 80's. Their junior officers would have been about 20 years younger, to estimate, and that would put them in their 80's by now. LeMay was 55 when he became chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

Does anybody remember that LeMay finished off his career as George Wallace's running mate in 1968? They were the "American Party" ticket.

Rumsfeld was elected to the House at age 30 in 1962 -- same age as Teddy when elected to the Senate in 1962. Henry Kissinger was a professor at Harvard in 1963 (from 1954 to 1971). David Rockefeller is about 90 years old now and I doubt he's still running things. (His nephew Jay, is one of the best Democrats we have challenging the Bush Crime Cartel.) I can't believe the same criminals are still running things ... that torch has probably passed to a new generation of elitist criminals.

David Talbot's article in Salon last week about the 40th anniversary of the Warren Commission is a must read. Talbot (managing editor of salon.com) maintains:

"... the Warren Report is widely regarded as a whitewash, with polls consistently showing that a majority of Americans reject the official version of Kennedy's death.

But there is one sanctuary where the Warren Report is still stubbornly upheld and where the manifold critics can expect their own rough treatment: in the towers of the media elite....

One of the great ironies of history is that while the media elite was busily trying to shore up public confidence in the Warren Report, the political elites were privately confiding among themselves that the report was a travesty, a fairy tale for mass consumption. Presidents, White House aides intelligence officials, senators, congressmen, even foreign leaders -- they all muttered darkly among themselves that Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy, a plot that a number of them suspected had roots in the U.S. government itself. (... In 1993, CBS anchorman Dan Rather, who did much along with his network to enforce the party line in Dallas, confessed to Robert Tannenbaum, the former deputy chief counsel of the House Select Committee on Assassination, "We really blew it on the Kennedy assassination.")"

This is a great article by Talbot.
http://salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/15/warren/index_n...
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bluedonkey Donating Member (644 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
244. fake or no fake
It only shows the discussion is still on and ,as far as I can see,it won't go away til the truth is told!
Very strange,my son questioned me about Kennedy yesterday and today I stumble on this!
To this day I can hardly talk about him without crying and I tried to make my son understand the utter horror of that day!
Mind you I was 12 yo,living in Germany.Kennedy was well liked,loved even,in my country.There was so much hope for a better future for all!
I remember my father being put on high alert,the only other time was when the Wall went up in Berlin.

I don't need any proof,I already know the truth! Anyone with eyes in their head been knowing the truth for 40 years.
But thank you all for keeping this up.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
246. This is like a Bad Movie.
America the beautiful..........what a ruse.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
250. Its also frightening
in the fact that the present JFK (Kerry) is a democrat considered "liberal" and is Catholic as well. It seems he would be in danger should he be elected as well given the present administration's base voters and ideologues.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
253. Perhaps this was leaked to stop Porter Goss's confirmation?
Undoubtedly, many people inside oppose him as the BFEE director of choice - and circulating this now (perhaps even re-circulating it) might call attention to Goss's slimey connection.

:shrug:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #253
254. Goss may've been part of Operation 40
Excellent observation, Elementary Penguin. The following is probably old news:

Perhaps there are some who still fear what LBJ called the CIA's "damn Murder Inc. in the Caribbean." From Dan Hopsicker...

CIA Nominee in Pic of CIA's Assassination Squad

Was Bush Spy Pick on Agency Hit Team?


THE MAN PICKED by President George W Bush to head Americas Central Intelligence Agency is even more of an intelligence insider than has so far been revealed...

Although membership in a secret society would seem to compromise a bit anyone being considered to lead an Agency which is itself a secret society, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Republican Porter J Goss of Sanibel Island Florida is a member of the secret society Book & Snake at Yale.

SNIP...

No questions have yet been raised about the propriety of confirming as CIA Director someone who may have belonged to an assassination squad which was reportedly a joint collaboration between the CIA and the Mob.

But questions have already been asked about the influence of secret societies on Americas supposedly democratic institutions, especially since both major Presidential candidates belong to a secret society, too: "Skull & Bones."

SNIP...

News that America's new Top Spook is a previously-undisclosed member of a secret society who will be chatting in the Oval Office with a boss who is also a member of a secret society raises a question of undue influence...

CONTINUED...

http://www.madcowprod.com
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #254
255. Kick!
JFKerry is facing many of the same enemies JFKennedy faced! The military industrial complex, Big Oil Texans, slimey elements of the intelligence community, radical Floridians, and the BFEE!

:puke:
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #254
258. OCTA - I thought that was silly of Hopsicker - a reach - they both belong
to secret societies - so what...

although I'd liek to have been a fly onthe wall to find out what kind
of deal is made that members of Skull & Bones end up in government
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #254
259. Goss has admitted recently to being part of the Bay of Pigs thing
and that he wouldn't be welcome in certain countries.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #259
261. The NIXON-BUSH Connection
Two words regarding the Bay of Pigs Thing: "The Texans."

The Kennedy Assassination:
The Nixon-Bush Connection


by Paul Kangas

Note: All references to "George Bush" refer to George Herbert Walker Bush, Father of George "Dubya" Bush who was "elected" (prez-nit) by a 5 to 4 vote of the Supreme Court.

EXCERPT...

George Bush claims he never worked for the CIA until he was appointed director by former Warren Commission director and then President Jerry Ford, in 1976. Logic suggests that is highly unlikely. Of course, Bush has a company duty to deny being in the CIA. The CIA is a secret organization. No one ever admits to being a member. The truth is that Bush has been a top CIA official since before the 1961 invasion of Cuba, working with Felix Rodriguez. Bush may deny his actual role in the CIA in 1959, but there are records in the files of Rodriguez and others involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba that expose Bush's role. The corporations would not put somebody in charge of all the state secrets held by the CIA unless he was experienced and well trained in the CIA. (Source: Project Censored Report, Feb 1989, Dr Carl Jensen, Sonoma State College).

SNIP...

On the Watergate tapes, June 23, 1972, referred to in the media as the "smoking gun" conversation, Nixon and his Chief of Staff, H.R. Haldeman, discussed how to stop the FBI investigation into the CIA Watergate burglary. They were worried that the investigation would expose their conection to "the Bay of Pigs thing." Haldeman, in his book The Ends of Power, reveals that Nixon always used code words when talking about the 1963 murder of JFK. Haldeman said Nixon would always refer to the assassination as "the Bay of Pigs."

On that transcript we find Nixon discussing the role of George Bush's partner, Robert Mosbacher, as one of the Texas fundraisers for Nixon. On the tapes Nixon keeps refering to the "Cubans" and the "Texans." The "Texans" were Bush, Mosbacher and Baker. This is another direct link between Bush and evidence linking Nixon and Bush to the Kennedy assassination.

In the same discussion Nixon links "the Cubans," "the Texans," "Helms," "Hunt," "Bernard Barker," Robert "Mosbacher" and "the Bay of Pigs." Over and over on the Watergate tapes, these names come up around the discussion of the photos from Dallas that Nixon was trying to obtain when he ordered the CIA to burglarize the Watergate. (Source: Three Men and a Barge", Teresa Riordan, Common Cause magazine, March/April 1990, and San Francisco Chronicle, May 7,1977, interview with Frank Sturgis in which he stated that "the reason we burglarized the Watergate was because Nixon was interested in stopping news leaking related to the photos of our role in the assassination of President John Kennedy.")

After Nixon's landslide victory in 1972, he knew he had to centralize all power into the White House to keep his faction in power, not only to hold power, but to prevent the media from digging into how he secretly shot his way into the White House, just like Hitler shot his way into control of Germany. The first thing Nixon did was to demand signed resignations of his entire government. "Eliminate everyone," he told John Ehrlichman about reappointment, "except George Bush. Bush will do anything for our cause." (Source: Pledging Allegiance, Sidney Blumenthal.)

CONTINUED...

http://www.sumeria.net/politics/kennedy.html

PS: Skull & Bones = Good & Bad = Life & Death. OK. Bay of Pigs Thing = Treason

Hopsicker's good for the country, but I think Kerry's better. For our republic to survive we must get the unelected moron out of the Oval Office. If we need another Bonesman to do so, so be it. Bottom line: Kerry's the best qualified candidate we've had in two generations. IMO: If elected, he'll make a darn good President -- one who uses the powers of his office to make life better for ALL Americans and helps make ours a stronger country and a better world.
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #261
262. OCTA-saw him on Letterman lastnight-very serious man-was impressed for
the first time.

But we need him to know what we know and demand resignations of everyone in government.

Maybe make neo-cons illegal organization, like commies were.

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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #262
263. " Bush will do anything for our cause" what CAUSE did Nixon mean?
I remember most were looking at Haldeman & Ehrlichman with their
crew-cuts and wondering what the hell that was? Nobody was saying
Nazi like they are now, but they sure as hell were thinking that.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #263
268. Bob Haldeman called himself: "The President's Son-of-a-Bitch"


If this guy said Nixon was afraid of firing Bush, that really says something.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
266. Please for DU's sake let this be REAL
Because otherwise if it's publicized and found to be fake, we are on a downhill spiral that won't quit, even after November 2.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #266
267. Check Reply # 11. Those are from the National Archives.
They're real and show George H. W. Bush ratted out some fellah as a suspect in the JFK assassination to the FBI within minutes of the murder. The second FBI memo shows Hoover reported a "Mr. George Bush" of the CIA vouched the Cuban community in Miami regretted the assassination, but was not involved.

Gee. Could George Bush have had something to do with what LBJ called the CIA's "Damned Murder Inc. in the Caribbean?"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #266
270. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:37 AM
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269. Deleted message
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #269
271. You'll never get out of Politics 101 with that kind of response.
oh, and yeah - welcome to DU. :eyes:
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #269
272. MMMM... I love's me some frozen pizza!
'specially TOMBSTONE!

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
273. Kick!
:kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #273
275. Thanks Karenina! Remember Mae Brussell? She tied NAZIs to Dallas...
I believe you know this, but many DUers and visitors will be surprised to learn that this information exists, let alone find it available. For those who aren't afraid to "handle the Truth," I present one of the major (thankfully, historic) turds of the BFEE...



THE NAZI CONNECTION TO THE JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION

by Mae Brussell Published in The Rebel, November 22, 1983.

1940-1945: The Nazi Connection: Dallas Reinhard Gehlan

EXCERPT...

General Reinhard Gehlen was ready to cut a deal. Reinhard Gehlen had been, up until the recent capitulation, Adolph Hitler's chief intelligence officer against the Soviet Union. His American captors had decked him out in one of their uniforms to deceive the Russians, who were hunting him as a war criminal. Now U.S. intelligence was going to deploy Gehlen and his network of spies against the Russians. The Cold War was on.

This is a story of how key nazis, even as the Wehrmacht was still on the offensive, anticipated military disaster and laid plans to transplant nazism, intact but disguised, in havens in the West. It is the story of how honorable men, and some not so honorable, were so blinded by the Red menace that they fell into lockstep with nazi designs. It is the story of the Odd Couple Plus One: the mob, the CIA and fanatical exiles, each with its own reason for gunning for Kennedy. It is a story that climaxes in Dallas on November 22, 1963 when John Kennedy was struck down. And it is a story with an aftermath -- America's slide to the brink of fascism. As William L. Shirer author of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, put it in speaking of the excesses of the Nixon administration, "We could become the first country to go fascist through free elections."

Even Robert Ludlum would have been hard put to invent a more improbable espionage yam. In the eyes of the CIA Reinhard Gehlen was an "asset" of staggering potential. He was a professional spymaster, violently anti-Communist and, best of all, the controller of a vast underground network still in place inside Russian frontiers. His checkered past mattered not. "He's on our side and that's all that matters," chuckled Allen Dulles, a U.S. intelligence officer during the war who later headed the CIA. "Besides, one need not ask a Gehlen to one's club.

Gehlen negotiated with his American "hosts" with the cool hand of a Las Vegas gambler. When the German collapse was at hand, he had looked to the future. He lugged all his files into the Bavarian Alps and cached them at a site called, appropriately, Misery Meadows. Then he buried his Wehrmacht uniform with the embroidered eagle and swastika, donned an Alpine coat, and turned himself in to the nearest U.S. Army detachment. When the advancing Russians searched his headquarters at Zossen, all they found were empty file cabinets and litter. The deal Gehlen struck with the Americans was not, for obvious reasons, released to the Washington Post. As Heinz Hohne and Hermann Zolling phrased it in The General Was A Spy, the German general took his entire apparatus, "unpurged and without interruption, into the service of the American superpower." There is no evidence that he ever renounced the Third Reich's postwar plan, advanced by his own family's publishing house, to colonize vast regions of Eastern Russia, create a huge famine for 40,000,000, and treat the remaining 50,000,000 "racially inferior Slavs as slaves. Allen Dulles may not have invited such a man to his club, but he did the next best thing: he funneled an aggregate of $200 million in CIA funds to the Gehlen Organization as it became known. Directing operations from a fortress-like nerve center in Bavaria, Gehlen reactivated his network inside Russia. Soon, news of the first Russian jet fighter, the MiG-15, was channeled back to the West. In 1949 the general scored an espionage coup when he turned up Soviet plans for the remilitarization of East Germany.

When Dulles spoke, Gehlen listened. The CIA chief was convinced, along with his brother, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, that the "captive nations" of the Soviet bloc would rise up if given sufficient encouragement. At his behest, Gehlen recruited and trained an exile mercenary force ready to rush in without involving American units. Also at Dulles' direction, Gehlen tapped the ranks of his wartime Russian collaborators for a cadre of spies to be parachuted into the Soviet Union. Some of these spies were schooled at the CIA's clandestine base at Atsugi, Japan, where, in 1957, a young Marine named Lee Harvey Oswald was posted to the U-2 spy plane operation there.

CONTINUED...

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Na...
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