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There is a contrail overhead now here in Los Altos, CA

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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:14 AM
Original message
There is a contrail overhead now here in Los Altos, CA
I went outside to look at the stars and there it was, It is fairly low, and spreading. I've seen them here before - but usually very late at night (I'm something of an insomniac).

I KNOW the difference between airplane trails and this. 20 or so years ago I saw a lot of contrails while I was at NMSU.

I know the difference. Why do I feel so helpless? I have a pack of 8 year olds spending the night - I feel guilty for some reason, I feel I should be able to protect them.

I am not a paranoid person - but I can recognize reality.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. What's the difference?
Sorry, but it's not odd to find a low, spreading airplane trail in the sky when you live about 15 miles from San Jose Airport and 30 miles from San Francisco airport.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Dude, or Dookus, I've lived here for 13 years.
I can tell the difference. These things are SLOW spreaders.... I mean REALLY slow. Here in Los Altos, if we had low-flying noisy planes the neighbors would use their $$$ and influence to stop them.

I just checked again, and it's still there.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I forgot to mention you're also
near Oakland airport and Moffett Field.

I'm sorry, but nobody has ever explained a clear difference between contrails and chemtrails.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
67. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. I have a computer
I thought that would've been obvious to people here.

As to getting a clue, I'm ASKING for a clue, and all I get are insults. Where are the published studies from meteorologists, atmospheric scientists and climatologists on this issue?

Do you believe all these fields of science, worldwide,are part of a conspiracy to keep this quiet? Do you believe thousands of scientists, pilots, air support crews and governmental officials are involved in this mass conspiracy?

To what purpose? I've seen conflicting answers: some say it's to affect global climate change, others say it's for civilian mind control. Which is it? where's the evidence for or against either side?

Why be so insulting? Why can't we discuss this rationally?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #75
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #82
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #69
84. Dude, your logic leaves me baffled....
I GET Q CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!tust only ose who bhave noy been pert of the 'stargste proj. and tjose who -
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #84
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
86. The Reality Is A Lot Different Here In Mountain View
I have NO idea whay y'all are smoking in Los Altos, but are y'all willing to share?

No chemtrails, contrails, polkatrails, bunnytrails, anything overhead here tonight, but there's been the usual activity from Moffat.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. contrail= condensation trail from airplane, chem trail=bad ugly stuff
I know you know this, but it's driving me crazy the ambiguity, so I decided to stuff it in here somewhere
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. Could you spell that out more clearly please?
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tedoll78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. What is a contrail?
I've heard a few people speak of them, but no one has ever explained what one is. Help?
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. It's thw white trail left behind from an aircraft
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tedoll78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Duh!
Of course.. I should've known that.

Thanks!
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Chemtrails not contrail.......
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:25 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
An extensive website proving that chemtrails are a secret government conspiracy. CIA and military coverup.
www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm


ALBUQUERQUE PHOTOGRAPHIC PROGRESSION
JULY 1999
(The following series and comments were recently sent to www.carnicom.com:)

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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. it PROVES it?
your standards of proof are pretty low.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. i didn't say "it proves it" ..that is from the website...it is their claim
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:40 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
NOT mine...i was simply trying to answer the posters question... please don't bite me ;)
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Where do you live? Have the majority of people in your
region drunk the kool-aid? You can say it is nuts - but I can about guarantee that son will have asthmatic reaction w/in 2 days, and daughter will get hives somewhere.

Why should it be different from the last few times?
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I live close to you
in Santa Cruz, CA. I lived in East Palo Alto for 10 years before that, and I used to work in Los Altos.

Perhaps your son's asthma is related to additional stress you put on him when you think you see a chemtrail?
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Dude, or dookus, don't get wierd on me....
...a more mellow person you will not meet. It took me 3+ years to click to the reaction....but guess what, a # of his classmates will be out sick this week if past stats hold up.

I do not talk to kids about this sh*t - they are kids, and need to enjoy their innocence.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I'm not being weird on you...
I'm just pointing out that nobody has ever shown me a clear difference between a chemtrail and a normal airplane contrail.

The chemtrail info I've seen seems to be the product of paranoid minds.

As to tonight, it's cloudy here on my side of the hill. Perhaps some fog is seeping over the mountain in an unusual pattern. Perhaps it's very still and moist, and a regular airplane contrail is hanging around longer than usual.

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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Crystal clear here - and the chemtrail has dissipated.
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. Dookus, I have been around here long enough
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 01:09 AM by Big Blue Marble
to notice that you are the official chemtrail debunker. It does
not work on someone who has been observing this phenomenon for over five years. I have lived in this world for sixty years and have watched contrails with delight for many of them. These trails are so very different. As anyone who regularly observes them knows.

As this evening where I live when they covered our sky from north to south and east to west. I saw a white plane at 10 to 12 thousand feet(I could clearly make out the plane) streaming this cr*p. Real contrails do not form at this altitude. More than once I have seen these low flying planes turn the stream of and on. Also not likely with real thing.

The amazing thing is that hardly anyone notices; they just go about their business and never look up. In the meantime tons and tons of barium and aluminum are dumped into our environment.


edited for spelling
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. What would be the purpose of dumping aluminum and barium into environment?
?
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. There are multiple theories.
Some think it is to block the sun's heat and reduce global warming.
Another theory is to block UV rays. Also could be in coordination with
the HAARP technology that directs electromagnetic frequencies to different parts of the world to affect weather. And could also be used as a weapon. I think these are the main theories although there are others. Nevertheless, we and our environment get to play guinea pig yet again and this time there is no escaping it.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Seems if it was to reduce global warming they be talking it up
and giving it all kinds of publicity about how they are helping to prevent global warming, dont you think?
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. No
Because they would have to wait for environmental studies and environmental groups would take it to court and regular people like you and I might get upset about the fact that they are conducting the largest Terra forming experiment conducted by humankind. One in which the outcome at best is uncertain. No our government really prefers to act in secret and sort it out later
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. Damn,
You make too much sense!!
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #44
57. Missed my point?
I agree with you.

My point is if the chemtrails were actually more of a positive application (which part of it could be), like a remedy for global warming, I think they would be much quicker to praise and publicize what they are doing, however its the secrecy is what is pretty bothersome.

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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:46 AM
Original message
That is the point.
They are not sure, more likely desperate. Remember, these are the same folks that will not admit there is global warming. IMO, if this is part of the reason for the chemtrail covers that blanket our skies many days,
they must be a lot more worried than they want us to know. In this scenario if we found out how much trouble the planet is in, why we little folks just might panic or something. OMG, we just might stop buying all that stuff or crash the economy.

This a stealth program because they want us to continue as normal, no concern,no panic. Oh yeah if it all works out, we will hear about later how they saved the world and everything. Oh how I wish.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Actually
I almost never mention contrails here. You must have me confused with somebody else. There was a thread in the Meeting Room lately where I posted a few times, but I certainly have never considered myself a resident debunker of chemtrails.

But I do question how you know the altitude of a plane flying overhead and why you would assert that contrails do not form at 10-12 thousand feet. Why should that be the case?
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
41. I knew that you would ask that question.
Of course I cannot prove it to you. But after five years of persistant observation, I have learned to judge relative altitudes. First the chemtrials are very low hanging, much lower than other clouds and secondly the planes look much closer. It is much easier to make out the details of the planes which by the way are always white. I know of only one airline that has white planes, Air Alaska and they do not fly in the eastern part of the country where I live.

And to ask the second part of your question:

from a NASA site:

http://www.nasaexplores.com/show_k4_teacher_st.php?id=030109105619

Contrails are human-induced clouds that only form at very high altitudes (usually above 8 kilometers) where the air is extremely cold (less than –40 °Celsius).
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
45. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. I don't know what that means
a kool-aid drinker is typically someone who believes something outrageously false.

What am I rationalizing? What world am I pretending to be in? You're not making sense.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. I choose to believe I am making sense, and that
you are desperately trying to rationalize some paradigm which scorches in the light of day.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #54
62. fair enough
although I can argue that all I've seen as evidence on this topic are fringe websites discussion the issue. Go to a chemtrail site and you're never more than a scroll or one click away from a discussion of UFO's, orgone energy, or other pseudo-scientific phenomena.

Where are the climatologists, the meteorologists, the atmospheric scientists? Where are the published studies? Where is the evidence that goes beyond anecdotes? Saying that "they look different than when I was a kid" is useless, scientifically. Also, there are simpler explanations - there are a helluva lot more jets flying today than in the 1965.

Unfortunately, these discussions tend to immediately ignore the REAL issue, which is that genuine, airplane CONtrails MAY WELL contribute to atmospheric changes and climate changes. There's no reason to add an extra component into the mix.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #62
70. Uh, yeah I guess they do.....
but you do not believe in them,.......DO THE RESEARCH YOURSERLF, Mon!

Really, do it - you will be on one opposite sidse of the spectrum when you do....
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. really?
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 02:41 AM by Dookus
you think if ONLY I read the websites out there, I would be convinced?

Well... here's a secret I HAVE read them, and I remain unconvinced.

I have asked you twice for the climatologists, the meterologists, the atmospheric scientists who have published studies on this phenomenon.

I simply don't affirm scientific knowledge from websites discussing orgone energy and sylphs.

On edit: Oddly enough, the astrologers tell me the same thing: if I only STUDIED it, I'd believe it.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
46. Why have you not responded to my private message??
I sent it quite awhile ago.....

You are a true 'dookus' if you choose not to respond.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. huh?
Again, I don't know what to make of what you say. It isn't grammatically sound.

I received a very strange PM from a person I don't know. It is just common internet sense not to engage such people.
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Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. Long time DUer here
I know YOUR posts dookus...

Jax
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. Well
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 02:33 AM by Dookus
that's only because I disagree with you. If you actually read my posts, you'll find probing questions and interesting discussion points.

I didn't disrupt this thread - unless you define "disruption" as "disagreement".

Then you started in with petty insults. I'm glad you did though, because I've found that people who use a humorous sigline as the basis for their attacks have already used up their best arguments.

Oh, and Jax -your post is a violation of the rules.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #68
78. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:21 AM
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60. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #60
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:47 AM
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76. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. because I don't believe in chemtrails?
What an odd position. I'm in need of therapy because I don't believe in something that has no real evidence behind it? I'm afraid I disagree with your definition of what requires therapy.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. "The amazing thing is that hardly anyone notices;
they just go about their business and never look up."

So true.

Many times I've had one eye on the conspicuous spraying, another on the people who simply won't look up.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #19
31. oh shance....
how am I trying to shut down a thread? Is discussing something on a DISCUSSION board equivalent to shutting down discussion? What an odd notion.

Oh, and btw, your post violates the rules.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Deleted message
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. wow,
what a thoughtful response.

Now please explain how disagreeing with you is "shutting down a conversation". What have I dished, and what can't I take? You're not making a lot of sense.

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. What are chemtrails supposed to do and/or emit?
n/t
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
79. Wouldn't the differences in the trails' spreading be the result of
different atmospheric conditions at different altitudes? I mean, a gas is a gas.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
90. I've Bookmarked That One Under "Crackpot Sites"
Thanks.

-- Allen
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
8. A chemtrail is what I should have said
a quick google will explain then to those who are unaware. One of the first I got was

http://educate-yourself.org/ct/
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Look here
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Good - glad you added these to the discussion
saved me the time. :evilgrin:
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
20. One morning a couple of weeks ago, even my non-tinfoil wife
was stunned by the pattern spraying. A grotesque crosshatching all across the eastern sky, and an hour later it had spread to form a milky gauze over the city.

I don't know what it is, but I know it is.

A pretty good site, with a forum:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Air Traffic Controllers Concerned Over Chemtrails
Air Traffic Controllers Concerned Over Chemtrails
By William Thomas
March 21, 2002
Should we be breathing in powdered aluminum?


VANCOUVER, Canada - As continuing chemtrail activity culminated in massive aerial spraying over Vancouver Island and Washington state yesterday- and broadening plumes once again fanned out to haze clear blue skies - Air Traffic Controllers at major airports across the United States expressed concern over the emissions constantly showing up on their radar screens.

These radar returns are the signature of the fine aluminum particles found in laboratory tests of chemtrail-contaminated rain taken in Espanola, Ontario in the summer of 1999. The lab analysis found reflective quartz particles in the chemtrail fallout - and levels of aluminum FIVE TIMES higher than Ontario's maximum permissible health safety standards.

In a fourth interview with reporter S.T. Brendt last week, Deep Sky stated that Air Traffic Controllers at Chicago's O'Hare airport, all three major airports in New York, Los Angeles LAX, San Francisco, Atlanta, Cleveland, San Diego, Washington DC's Dulles and Jacksonville, Florida were being ordered to route airliners beneath formations of Air Force tanker planes spraying something that regularly clouds their screens. (...) Every controller, without exception, is being told to divert traffic due to military exercises, and to bring in traffic lower because of experiments that may degrade their radars. The controllers at Cleveland's airport were surprised by the extent of obscuration on their radars.

CHEMTRAILS SCIENTIST BREAKS SILENCE

Ohio is the home of Wright-Patterson - the air force base working with electromagnetic and weather modification technology. A scientist working at Wright-Pat recently told reporter Bob Fitrakis that two different projects are being conducted. One involves cloud creation experiments to lessen the effect of global warming. Other chemtrails are connected with the military's extremely high-power Radio Frequency beam weapon in Alaska called HAARP.

More here.

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
21. It's the alien lizards! They're here!
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mccormack98 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
23. Ever see the trail from a fireball?
Brilliant meteors often leave trails that hang in the sky for several minutes.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. I saw them last weekend when we camped at Lake Lahontan NV
NOTHING even remotely similar
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
28. It's all a vast conspiracy...
...by the giant Purple People Eaters!...<snicker>...
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Gobble, Gobble
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
30. Chem spraying was recommended by Edward Teller to reduce global
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 01:29 AM by Minstrel Boy
warming.


"The Methodic Demise of Natural Earth"

In this century, we believe we are witnessing the gradual, purposeful demise of the Earth's Natural System. There are those who will debunk/dis-info all that is written regarding the subject of this paper: ChemTrails. What's this? ChemTrails are only a vague description, in lay-terms, of a greater theater of toxic materials being released into the atmosphere/stratosphere, for a myriad of crude and toxic agendas.

...

Dr. Edward Teller wrote a white paper in the late 1990's describing a remedial operation, strategy, epic-in-proportion, to change the predicted course of what was believed by an International group of Scientists, including Dr. Edward Teller, Livermore National Laboratories, et al, to be the cataclysmic certainty from the results of global-warming, crisis level Ultra-Violet/Cosmic radiation, crisis Ozone-layer depletion and other theoretical doom.2 Demonstrating here, that the same mind, Dr. Edward Teller, Father of the H-Bomb, was responsible for many ill-conceived strategies and not one gave considerations to the consequences in the Human realm. Safety, toxicity, lethality, exposure, Environmental Impact, morality, were not words with which Dr. Teller had a high-degree of familiarity.3

These Global-Warming Mitigation Strategies, UV Mitigation and the cessation of the effects of Atmospheric Greenhouse-gases were given a commonality by Teller, et al, and this was the use of a sub-micron particulate. Barium, Aluminum, Thorium, Selenium were to be processed into a sub-micron particle dispensed from high-altitude aircraft, ionized with a specific electrical charge.4 (Chemtrails and Barium - absorption & inhalation .. see links below)5 We must surmise that ionization keeps the specific heavy metal particulate aloft for longer periods of time. This electronically charged particulate matrix might also be the perfect RF control field. Theoretically, the heavy metals would block and reflect the sunlight from entering the Earth's atmosphere and reflect 1-2% back into space. UV radiation levels would decline. Teller also recommended the use of Commercial Aircraft as-well-as-Military Aircraft to carry out the enormous and epic task of coverage to the Earth's Stratosphere. We believe that the weaponization use of these technologies has been well demonstrated for a US DOD program entitled "RF Dominance". The US Air Force VTRP and the Navy's RFMP are other military programs utilizing aerosolized heavy metal particulates, including aluminized fiberglass or chaffe are characteristic of current military operations.6

CIA-led Project Cloverleaf was one of the initial "aerosolized heavy-metal particulate" operations. Massive spraying of the upper-atmosphere/Stratosphere commenced. The U.S. DOD operations soon followed, as the US Air Force became embedded in the overall operations, strategically. The U.S. Air Force would also play significantly into the expansion of a significant Global-Warming Mitigation strategies in the form of Weather Modification and Geo-Engineering practices.7, 8

http://www.wnho.net/methodic_demise.htm
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gospelized Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
36. hm
i live near an air force base, so i've very aware of contrails.

but i've never seen them in any kind of pattern or unusual dissipation.


but you'll be happy to know i am sufficiently frightened now.
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gospelized Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. ok
i just did a bunch of reading about this. and when it started getting into UFOs, i came to the conclusion you are simply nutjobs.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. I don't know what you've been reading,
but in all my reading, which I expect is considerably more than the few minutes you've just spent, I haven't seen a UFO link made to chemtrails.

And calling us nutjobs isn't nice. Nor is it acceptable.
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gospelized Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. "considerabley more"
apparently doesn't include clicking the link that says "silver orbs" in the link someone just posted.

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/orbs.shtml
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. They are alien lizards!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #50
87. wait a minute....
I watched a military satellite rocket launch about a year ago and looking straight up, before the launch, you could see some sort of craft, perfectly stationary, but at a very high altitude and very small so you couldn't see any detail. It was there for quite some time before the launch in exactly the same spot, then after the launch I looked up and it was gone. I wasn't concerned about aliens, but it did give me the same feeling I had the first time I saw a stealth bomber fly overhead years before it was announced to the public.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. I'd say the new poster may be the nutjob? Just kidding.
Obviously not a smart way to be warmly welcomed though.

Minstrel Boy, you are no nutjob. You've obviously done your homework! You've pretty much covered all the bases.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. The sad thing is,
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 02:22 AM by Minstrel Boy
his ridicule will welcome him in some DUers estimation.

Despite Kucinich, despite Teller and Eastlund, despite laboratory sampling, despite our own damn eyes, this is a topic well beyond what the paradigm of many here permits. We're beyond-the-fringe nutjobs for even mentioning it.

Better to just keep our heads down. If we did, we'd never see the sky.
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gospelized Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #53
64. aw.
one of the first pages i found was some lady saying that she talks to 'beings' called Sylphs that gather up the chemtrails and hide in the clouds.

so i'm sure you might understand why i would come to the nutjob conclusion.

but yeah, i realize that you all are not of the UFO or alien variety, and i shouldn't have made such a rude rude comment.
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gospelized Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #49
58. ok.
i apologize for the nutjobs comment.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
40. HAARP's inventor called for spraying barium in the atmosphere
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 01:43 AM by Minstrel Boy
A scientist working at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base told Columbus Alive (Dec. 6, 2001) that two different chemtrails projects are currently being conducted by the U.S. military. One involves creating clouds to cool global warming.

Chemtrails are also being deployed by the Pentagon to suspend a mixture of barium stearate and fine iron particles as a temporary atmospheric antenna for conducting radio and radar waves over the horizon. The soapy stearate used to carry the airborne iron particles appears in the sky as prismatic bands of color.

Barium-iron chemtrails were reportedly used to create long range radio-and-radar “ducting” during sustained air strikes on Iraq, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. The scientist interviewed by Fitzrakis also stated that barium chemtrails are being used in conjunction with an “atmospheric heater” called HAARP in Gakon, Alaska.

HAARP’s inventor Bernard Eastland told this reporter that the principal purpose of this multi-million watt weapon is to “steer the jet stream” and change the weather. His patent calls for spraying barium in the atmosphere to enhance the effects of HAARP. “Wright-Pat has long been deeply engaged in HAARP’s electromagnetic warfare program,” Eastlund told Columbus Alive. http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001113.html

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #40
92. British scientist mysteriously deported from Belarus
British scientist mysteriously deported from Belarus
Authorities of Belarus made a decision to deport a British scientist. The Belarussian Interior Affairs Ministry rescinded the visa of the British citizen Alan Flowers. The scientist has been analyzing the consequences of the Chernobyl catastrophe for more than ten years. Spokespeople for the ministry refused to comment the reasons of such a measure.

The scientist, who specializes in radiology studies, believes his deportation is tied with his contacts with non-state organizations. The British Foreign Ministry confirmed the fact of deportation, although there were no comments released on the matter either.

Alan Flowers has probably come to conclusions, which could have provoked a negative reaction in the governments of the former Soviet Union. The British scientist particularly proposed USSR"s special services arranged artificial rains in Belarus after the nuclear disaster in 1986 not to let the wind blow the contaminated air towards Moscow.

The British scientist says many of his colleagues in Belarus support his theory, although they prefer not to talk about it in public. The reasons of such radioactive rains are not known yet, which does not allow estimating the capacity and nature of radioactive contamination.
http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/92/370/13618_brttscie ...

Belarus deports Chernobyl expert

Vladimir Kuzura, an official from the Belarusian Interior Ministry, refused to explain the reasons behind the withdrawal of Dr Flowers' visa and the deportation order.

But Dr Flowers is said to have made a claim that, if proved right, would cause great embarrassment to former top Soviet officials.

According to Vera Rich, who was the Soviet correspondent of the scientific journal Nature at the time of the tragedy, many believe the then Soviet Union seeded clouds to make them rain on Belarus.

The move was aimed at preventing winds from blowing contaminated material towards Moscow, theorists say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3943013.stm


The British scientist particularly proposed USSR"s special services arranged artificial rains in Belarus after the nuclear disaster in 1986 not to let the wind blow the contaminated air towards Moscow.

http://www.dreamingaloud.com/Gallerys/Gal2.htm

Chornobyl Fallout Brought Down on Belarus To Spare Russia?

To date, none have been willing to "go public," arguing that -- in the political climate of today's Belarus -- to give their names would not only endanger their visas (and their continuing research) but also put their informants at risk. However, the following emerged in informal discussions on the sidelines of a recent scientific conference:

One researcher, whose official brief is to monitor whether the soil of these areas can be safely brought back into cultivation, has begun collecting the reminiscences of local inhabitants as to what they remember of the days immediately after the accident. He made no attempt to "lead" his "witnesses." Amid the many purely personal incidents (weddings, May Day celebrations, etc), there were repeated reports of unusual activity of aircraft and/or rockets being fired in the vicinity. One man, the chief administrative officer of his locality, stated categorically that he had seen an aircraft with "stuff coming out of the back." Many people remembered that the rain showers that followed were "unusually heavy" and that -- unlike "normal" rainstorms in early May, were not accompanied by thunder. Challenged by colleagues that such reports were "subjective," the researcher pointed out, "These people are farmers and know about rain!" When further asked why such claims had never been made before, he pointed out that, to date "no one had bothered to ask the locals!"

A senior scientist who had been working mainly in Russia stated that what he termed an unimpeachable Moscow source who, at the time of the accident "had been in a position to know," admitted that the clouds were, indeed, brought down. People like his informant, this scientist said, "are prepared to talk in cars -- particularly Western cars!" (i.e., where there is little likelihood of "bugging").

In fact, shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union, one scientific paper was published in the West that reported -- on the basis of local claims -- that the soil had been tested for traces of silver iodide, the chemical most widely used for seeding. No such traces were found, the report said. But this is at best negative evidence. The soil samples in question were taken more than six years after the accident -- and the small amounts of silver left by seeding could well have leached out of the soil during that time. Alternatively, the Soviets might have used a different chemical for seeding.

One scientist who has worked on the Chernobyl contamination since 1992 is Dr. Alan Flowers of Kingston University (U.K.). Many of his colleagues in Belarus, he says, seem to accept as established fact that the clouds were seeded -- but again, they have never publicly admitted this. When asked -- 16 years after the event and with the Soviet officials who would have taken the decision to "seed" the cloud presumably out of office, retired, or dead -- he replied that "for a full understanding of the distribution and effects of the Chernobyl fallout, we need as much evidence as possible. What caused the rain is still an uncertainty in our knowledge about the intensity and nature of the contamination."

more
http://greennature.com/article1346.html


The population of these areas has always maintained that the rain was artificial - "seeded" on orders from the Kremlin. Soviet authorities dismissed these reports as "radiophobia" fomented by "anti-socialist elements," and said they did not have the technology to "bring down clouds" in that way (although for years, the Soviet media had claimed exactly the opposite, with circumstantial accounts of crops saved from storm damage by prophylactic "cloud seeding").

Western scientists tacitly accepted the Soviet denials - partly in the belief that no government would act so callously and also because they considered the Chornobyl-polluted area a unique "laboratory" for studying the migration of radioactive contamination in the soil and did not want to provoke the authorities into denying them visas. However, the bulk of circumstantial evidence is now causing them to think again.

To date, none have been willing to "go public," arguing that - in the political climate of today's Belarus - to give their names would not only endanger their visas (and their continuing research) but also put their informants at risk. However, the following information emerged in informal discussions on the sidelines of a recent scientific conference.

One researcher, whose official task is to monitor whether the soil of these areas can be safely brought back into cultivation, has begun collecting the reminiscences of local inhabitants as to what they remember of the days immediately after the accident. He made no attempt to lead his witnesses. Amid the many purely personal incidents (weddings, May Day celebrations, etc), there were repeated reports of unusual activity of aircraft and/or rockets being fired in the vicinity. One man, the chief administrative officer of his locality, stated categorically that he had seen an aircraft with "stuff coming out of the back." Many people remembered that the rain showers that followed were "unusually heavy" and that - unlike "normal" rainstorms in early May, were not accompanied by thunder.
more
http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2002/300206.shtml

The Belarusian government has consistently tried to play down the impact of the disaster and outspoken researchers have been gagged in the past.

President Alexander Lukashenko has imposed strict controls on freedom of speech and is increasingly isolated by the west.

The deportation of Dr Flowers comes days after the closure of the country’s only non-government university.
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3280282


Alexander Lutsko
Sasha’s death is a great sadness and by it we have lost an interesting, even extraordinary, man. I am not in possession of his CV as I write, though I know he was a physicist, a Director of the Sakharov Institute, and that he had sailed the oceans as a scientific explorer.
I met Alexander Lutsko on four occasions, once when he came to my house in St Andrews, brought by Alan Flowers and Richard Demarco and subsequently at different locations in the summer of 1995 when he participated in Demarco’s summer school in Combermere, Cheshire and in St Andrews, amongst other locations. Restless and animated, he conveyed a sense of impatience. The opportunity had arisen for Belarus to be free and herself. The distinctness of her culture was important to him and he was a patriot. Intellectually, though, he roved far from home as an adventurer who relished the challenge of debate and disagreement and who wanted as many of his pupils as possible to experience that exhilaration too.

He appreciated in a serious way, the importance of different perspectives and approaches to issues. Creative thinking was the means to a prosperous and a free future for Belarus. For this reason, he joined enthusiastically in any debate which saw the overlapping of ideas and cultures. He warmed to Demarco’s theme of “Bridging the Gap” between Art and Science, between Eastern and Western Europe and, indeed, between the generations. Although he was a “Scientist”, he saw the value of artistic culture to the development of society, not least for the opportunity it provided for individuals to offer comment and to make contribution by means of artistic perception. The vital importance of multimedia was integral to his understanding.

Alexander Lutsko liked to describe himself as a “hooligan” and to witness his invitation to the highly serious ex-President of Lithuania, Vytautas Landsbergis, to become one too, was one of the great historic moments of life. I’m glad it took place at St Leonard’s. By “hooligan” he understood the idea of iconoclasm in the sense of overturning unworthy shibboleths. “Hooliganism” encapsulated, in his view, the spirit of derring-do which feared nothing Back then to the power of creative thought which came forth from destructuring and “chaos” which he saw as the prerequisite of reform.
more
http://www.iseu.by/rus/memoria/lutsko/MJames.html




INTRDISCIPLINARY BIO-EDUCATIONA COMPLEX SCIENCE IN THE NEXT MILLENNIUM

Dr. Alexander Lutsko
Rector, International Sakharov College
on Radioecology
Belarus

There are two foreseeable tendencies, presently, that can play a key role in the harmonisation of future society; the issues of human habitat and the ways of improving its quality.

A new technological breakthrough is possible, if only facilitated by an interdisciplinary approach to solving environmental challenges. In this context, it is topical to start training interdisciplinary specialists. This will also be an educational challenge if we bear in mind the huge bodies of accumulated knowledge and the persistent intensity of the information flow. However, a sound alternative can be suggested for the to-know-all-about-nothing approaches, by using new educational technologies and synergistic training programmes. A new educational scheme will cost more than traditional higher education, but a steady development of civilisation can be hardly expected in the absence of adequate professionals.
more
http://www.biopolitics.gr/HTML/PUBS/VOL6/HTML/lutsko.ht ...



Smuggling of plutonium poses major health threat
The smuggling of plutonium is a major threat to health, according to Commander Jasjit Singh, director of the Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses in New Delhi, India.
Commander Singh told a meeting at the House of Commons organised by Medical Action for Global Security that plutonium and other fissile materials might be used by states such as Iraq or terrorist organisations to make a bomb. But he warned that damage to health could also result from smugglers mishandling radioactive material.

Dr Frank Barnaby, a nuclear physicist and defence analyst, said: "There are currently about 400 tonnes of separated plutonium available in the world, and it takes up to 10 kg of the metal or 35 kg of plutonium oxide to make a nuclear weapon. A package the size of a box of 20 cigarettes would hold about 2 kg of plutonium metal, worth at least $2m or $3m on the black market. And to make a bomb requires only elementary nuclear physics."

This worry was greatly increased last August when police in Munich seized 350 g of plutonium that had been carried in a lead lined case hidden in the luggage of two Spaniards and a Colombian flying on a Lufthansa flight from Moscow. Between May last year and January this year there were seven cases of people being caught smuggling plutonium or uranium, and these cases are likely, said Commander Singh, to be only the tip of the iceberg. Nobody really knows the extent of the problem, who the smugglers are, or whether there are any buyers. "There is as yet no evidence of a terrorist group trying to acquire fissile material," a spokesman from the Foreign Office told the meeting, "but there is great concern in government."

The US government has been worried about this problem for some time, but the Russian government showed little interest until late last year, said Dr William Walker, senior lecturer in the science policy and research unit at the University of Sussex. The Russians became worried, said Dr Walker, because they realised that Russia is the country most threatened. Their two great fears are that the material will fall into the hands of breakaway republics and that the wide illegal availability of fissile material will lead to bad relationships with the West, causing it to reduce aid. The policy of the US and other Western governments is to help the Russians to help themselves, but the problem, said Dr Walker, will take dozens of years to solve.

Dr Alexander Lutsko from the International Sakharov Institute of Radioecology in Minsk thought that the chance of plutonium being stolen from plants in the former Soviet Union was small because many are still under military control. He was much more worried by "irresponsibility and negligence" with radiation: he cited as an example "the disposal of highly radioactive wastes by the Russian Pacific fleet all over the Pacific seashore." But, concluded Commander Singh, "the first we might know about the illegal smuggling of plutonium might be when a bomb explodes."--RICHARD SMITH, BMJ
more
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/310/6978/48 ...


"direct line between creative genius and insanity" yea I know what he's talkin bout there!

He was fascinated by the direct line between creative genius and insanity. In 195 he published a thesis entitled “The Theory of Abnormality”. He presented this at the Demarco European Art Foundation symposium at St Leonards’s School in St Andrews, as his contribution. In this he suggested ways of narrowing the gaps between the logical and intuitive ways of investigating the nature of reality. In doing so he was pleased to engage in dialogue with Vytautas Landsbergis, the first democratically elected President of the independent state of Lithuania.
http://www.iseu.by/rus/memoria/lutsko/RDemarco.html


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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
43. Another good site with 100's of pics from around the world.
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 01:56 AM by anarchy1999
www.chemtrailcentral.com

Chemtrails are real. Ignore them at your own peril, getting anyone to own up to what they are doing is the problem. Kucinich says they are real (in response to a question posed to him at an appearance in California somewhere last year). He also had sponsored or co-sponsored a bill that the language had to be watered down in, about aerial operations. You can find more about said legislation at the carnicom site referenced above.

My husband pointed these out to me in 2002 and I've been paying attention every since. They are not the same "con-trails" I grew up with in Southeastern Colorado. I saw jets nearly every day because Air Force Base was close and regular planes as well.

I've always loved to watch the skies and I can honestly say I've watched the weather being manipulated. Forecast rain, look up and if I see chemtrails being laid down it usually will = no rain. I've actually watched approaching thunderstorms fall apart.

Wonder if this might explain away some of those lost and unaccounted for trillions at the DoD?...........

Note to lark, there are forums at chemtrailcentral, you'll find far more support there than here at DU. Every once in a while someone will start a discussion and this happens every time. It's hard to have anyone believe you, most of our friends and people we point them out to think we've gone over the "conspiracy" edge.

Maybe we have..did I mention we're thinking of tinfoil for wallpaper? Hats just don't seem to be sufficient anymore!

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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
73. So this is what that guy was talking about
Three or four years ago, I was in Dallas on a business trip, and during a smoke break this guy was talking about the government spraying something. I wasn't involved in the conversation, but my client got into it and seemed to believe the guy. There was a strange criss-cross pattern of what I thought were contrails in the sky. I was like yeah, OK, whatever, but I think of it every time I see weird-looking contrails.

Why is it so hard to believe? Do we not think the government would try to manipulate the weather?
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
74. Look Up
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 03:38 AM by crickets
Apologies if I cover something already mentioned in the two DU threads linked.

Space Preservation Act of 2001 (Introduced in the House)
http://www.carnicom.com/hr2977.htm

Chem Trail Tracking USA
http://users.ev1.net/~seektress/club2.htm

When people start talking about 'Sylphs' and whatnot, I hit the back key. When the chemtrail issue reaches the House floor, that's another thing entirely.

http://www.mindjustice.org/

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2002/01/011002.html
~~
Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) introduced a bill in the House of Representatives late last year that would ban weapons in space. But while there have been many similar legislative initiatives in the past, Rep. Kucinich's bill is distinguished by its unusually expansive definition of "weapons."

Among the weapons that it would proscribe the new measure includes "psychotronic" devices that are "directed at individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of ... mood management, or mind control."
~~

Chemtrails are also listed in this bill. Later, it was rewritten and reintroduced as a different bill. Read, Google, repeat and/or back key as necessary. But please put away the tin foil. Certain frequencies do affect mood and health. "What's the frequency, Kenneth?"

http://www.mindjustice.org/victims.htm
http://www.echoedvoices.org/Jan2002/JanHaarp.html

There's a reason why the name Tesla isn't mentioned in US science classes, and it has nothing to do with his strange temperament or Tesla coils. He was a genius. He was also Serbian in a time equally or more racist than ours, a terrible businessman, and some of his ideas were a security nightmare. Think of him when you flick a light switch, or turn on a radio.

http://www.ntesla.org/
http://www.pbs.org/tesla/

Amidst the junk and disinformation, there is a grain of truth to people's concerns about chemtrails, as well as other secret military activities. It isn't bunk just because it isn't in a textbook or the corporate news. You remember the corporate news, don't you?

Edits: missing word, removed word. Also, I look forward to reading those two prior threads, but not tonight. Sorry, but it's late. G'night, Gracie.

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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
81. Protect them from what???
I'm sorry but your post makes no sense at all.

I don't understand why you're freaking out about a contrail, but that's your own business, I guess.

More info might be appreciated as to why you feel a single contrail is going to swoop down and destroy your life or even challenge you ability to protect children.

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #81
88. If you want more info,
there's plenty already in the subsequent posts to the thread. As well as the correction that "chemtrail" was meant, not "contrail."
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vetwife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. A Little Lark was concerned..I for one
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 10:50 AM by vetwife
want to tell you a Little Lark, there is so much to be concerned about with these mad people in office, nothing would surprise me.
I don't know what you saw. No idea. I do know this. In Anniston Alabama, they were destroying stockpiles of WMD's for a very long at Ft. McClellan until the City brought charges and sued the DOD and Feds over chemicals hazards. We did not get the news and I live in West Ga until about a year later. Nothing this bunch surprises me. I don't mean to feed speculation but I think this government of thugs not We the People bt the ones in power are capable of anything.
...................................snip...............................Defense Environment Alert
March 12, 2002
ALABAMA GOVERNOR SUES PENTAGON OVER INCINERATOR SAFETY ISSUES

Alabama Gov. Don Siegelman (D) last month filed a lawsuit against the Defense Department and Army seeking to prevent any incineration of chemical weapons in his state until the federal government provides "maximum protection to the citizens of Alabama" as required by federal law and administrative orders.

At issue is federal funding for a variety of emergency management measures designed to protect citizens living near the Anniston Army Depot in the event of an accidental release of toxic chemical agents, which are stored at the depot. About 3 5,000 people live within six to nine miles of the depot, and an additional 75,000 live within 10 to 30 miles of the depot, according to the governor's lawsuit. Siegelman also charges that DOD, in significantly extending the timeline to destroy Anniston's chemical weapons, has failed to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA). The lawsuit was filed in mid-February in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Alabama Eastern Division. The complaint is available on InsideEPA. com.

The Army is preparing to start up an incinerator to destroy stockpiled chemical munitions stored at the depot. Trial bums were scheduled to begin in late February, with actual operations slated for this summer But if the trial bums begin "without implementation of minimum critical safety items" then Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld -will be acting beyond the scope of his authority," the lawsuit charges. Siegelman is asking the court to compel DOD and the other defendants to transfer promised funds for "critical safety items," reexamine funding for over-pressurization of every school in Calhoun County, and notify citizens of all potential exposure to lethal chemical agents, having incorporated even the lowest level exposures into emergency planning response plans.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #89
91. $1 BILLION MAYBE $10 BILLION IN ASBESTOS CLEANUP


Grace told the Securities and Exchange Commission in 1998 that its liability for environmental cleanups was more than S230 million. But some EPA officials estimate the company's environmental liabilities to be "substantially greater," adding that it could be closer to $1 billion.
more
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FVP/is_22_2 ...



OMB and EPA squash the EPA Report
December 29, 2002
Bush administration squashes EPA public health warning that insulation in 15 to 35 million U.S. homes is probably contaminated with an extremely lethal form of asbestos.
According to the Barre-Montpelier Times Argus and Wichita Eagle, the Bush administration has squashed the release of an EPA public health warning that insulation in 15 to 35 million U.S. homes is probably contaminated with an extremely lethal form of asbestos. The warning was originally planned to be released in April 2002, along with a declaration of a public health emergency in Libby, Montana, where ore from a W.R. Grace vermiculite mine was contaminated with an extremely lethal asbestos fiber called tremolite that has killed or sickened thousands of miners and their families. Shipping records from W.R. Grace show that at least 15.6 billion pounds of vermiculite ore was shipped from Libby to 750 plants and factories throughout North America, with between a third and half ending up in insulation called Zonolite that was used in millions of homes, businesses and schools from the 1940s through the 1990s.

In early April 2002, the U.S. EPA had a public health warning ready to go: News releases had been written and rewritten, and lists of governors to call and politicians to notify had been compiled. But the declaration was never made - just days before EPA was set to make the declaration, the warning was squashed by the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB), even though the EPA had already greatly watered down the warning at the direction of the OMB.

Both OMB and EPA acknowledge that the OMB was actively involved in quashing the warning, but neither agency would discuss how or why. EPA’s chief spokesman Joe Martyak said, "Contact OMB for the details," while OMB spokeswoman Amy Call said, "These questions will have to be addressed to the EPA." Both agencies have also refused requests under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to provide documents to and from OMB about the asbestos warning.
http://www.eces.org/articles/000256.php

White House Budget Office Thwarts EPA Warning on Asbestos-Laced Insulation


by Andrew Schneider

WASHINGTON — The Environmental Protection Agency was on the verge of warning millions of Americans that their attics and walls might contain asbestos-contaminated insulation. But, at the last minute, the White House intervened, and the warning has never been issued.

The agency's refusal to share its knowledge of what is believed to be a widespread health risk has been criticized by a former EPA administrator under two Republican presidents, a Democratic U.S. senator and physicians and scientists who have treated victims of the contamination.

........

Derailed by White House

Interviews and documents show that just days before the EPA was set to make the declaration, the plan was thwarted by the White House Office of Management and Budget, which had been told of the proposal months earlier.

........

In a Feb. 22 memo, the EPA's Office of Pollution Prevention and Toxics said "the national ramifications are enormous" and estimated that if only 1 million homes have Zonolite "(are) we not put in a position to remove their (insulation) at a national cost of over $10 billion?"

........

Government extrapolations and interviews with former W.R. Grace Zonolite salesmen indicate that Illinois may have as many as 800,000 homes with Zonolite, Michigan as many as 700,000. Missouri is likely to have Zonolite in 380,000 homes.

.........

What you should know about asbestos dangers

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1229-01.htm

What's ya got to hide Mr. Cheney? :shrug:
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
93. Locking
This has deteriorated into an off-topic flamefest. Way too many PAs. Please remember that personal attacks are against DU's rules.
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