I am a Cubmaster. The school my Pack draws from has a Gay principal...

[greblc]

any ideas on how to gain his cooperation?

I do support the Gay and Lesbian Community, as does our Neighborhood.

It's difficult to be treated as a hate group when your members are Grade School Boys.

The local Grocery Refuses to let us Solicit (Sales,Membership , etc. ) on the sidewalk infront of their store. " Because they've had complaints about Scouts from customers."

How do I make people understand it's about the kids. Not some bigot at the National Council.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. What kind of cooperation are you looking for?

[greblc]

6. He...

first tried to refuse to send home our flier even after the School Board was legaly strong armed to do so. Eventually they went home with the boys.

Some principals will let Scout leaders Come into the school and talk to boys about scouting.

This would be great. There are a lot of Parents who were scouts who would like to get their Children into scouting but don't know how to make that happen.

I would also like to coordinate some service projects with the school itself.

He is a great guy. He has a partner and 2 adopted Boys. He is a Classic Car
Enthusiast., so I gave him 2 Pine Wood Derby Car Blanks and invited him to
Race with his Boys at our Pine Wood Derby. He said he would and didn't show.

I don't plan to stop trying.

[JerseygirlCT]

57. I'm with the principal. I would not be happy

about the schools supporting an organization that discriminates.

The BSA isn't going to change until they lose enough members and get enough heat.

[Gore1FL]

95. They will change

Because the national policies are not enforced at the local level except by RWNs at the local level.

Boy Scouting gave me the moral compass to know the policy is wrong.

[Pale Blue Dot]

2. I am a Cubmaster, too!

Unfortunatly, my area is not quite so liberal, and most of the parents probably support the Scout's official position. I have tried to counter this by making speeches promoting tolerance, that have been met with a lukewarm response.

IMHO, the only thing you can do is to work to change BSOA's official position on homosexuals in leadership positions.

[greblc]

8. I voice My opposition to the Atheist and Gay rulings at every oportunity.

I have yet to write any letters.

I don't think the National Council has acknowledged the Impact it had on Scouting.

Membership is down in our District and the Council leadership continues to write it off as "Changing Values and Lifestyles'. Even though the decline started when the ruling on the Gay Scout Leader was given.

[Dookus]

18. I'm sorry to hear that, Finnfan

You shouldn't support an organization that discriminates the way the BSA does.

Your opinion that the only thing you can do is to work to change the policy is similar to saying the only thing Log Cabin republicans can do is work to change the platform. Or gay Catholics.

The problem is, it doesn't work. When good people stand up and refuse to be complicit in their hatred, one of two things will happen: either they will change their policy, or the children will get a lesson in real courage.

[Pale Blue Dot]

22. We've gone around about this before, Dookus.

My son is a scout. There are no similar organizations in my area.

My son stood up in the middle of a Pack meeting and shouted "Democrats! Democrats! We all must be Democrats!"

I'm trying to use my position to teach the kids tolerance. I have not given a dime directly to the BSOA.

[Dookus]

23. I know we have

and I have no desire to attack you over this. But my feelings are sincere on the issue - good people shouldn't support bigotry in any form.

[greblc]

26. How many Bigoted Children do you know?

I'm supporting Children not Bigotry.

Our President is a bigot in the same reguard. I still choose to be an American.
Scouting is the same organization it's always been. The National council has made a poor decision on this topic.

Don't thow something of value out because it's broke before you try to fix it.

That's why I posted. What are some Ideas to fix this?

[Dookus]

30. I've already expressed my idea -

refuse to be a part of the organization. Convince others to do so. Explain to your children why taking a stand sometimes means losing something fun. Then take them camping on your own.

Imagine a country club that doesn't allow blacks, or Jews. Would you belong to that club? Your kids would love the pool and the game room, and there might even be organized activities for kids to partake in that would be useful and educational.

They could learn how to swim, or sail, or ride horses. All good things. But they would also learn that excluding blacks or Jews is acceptable. Even if you explained to them that it's wrong, they'd learn that accepting wrongs is OK as long as you don't have to give up anything meaningful.

I have nephews who are scouts - it breaks my heart that their parents think it's OK. I think they're wrong, and I think you're wrong. Your kids could learn to tie knots or start fires, OR you could teach them that and teach them a much more important lesson.


on edit: I forgot to answer your first question. As a child, I knew many bigoted children. One doesn't forget getting beat up a lot and being called "faggot" daily. Cute little grade-school kids. The notion that children are open-minded free-spirits is nonsense. They learn the same prejudices they're exposed to. Send 'em to scouts, they're exposed to anti-gay bigotry.

[greblc]

34. I would protest by bringing my Jewish and/or Black Friend as Guests.

They do learn prejudices. If they watch our President theyare exposed to anti gay bigotry. What I'm advocating is meet it head on.

[Dookus]

35. yes

I'm sure your jewish and black friends would jump at the chance to attend a club at which they're not welcome.

It's a cop-out. It's easier to let your kids stay scouts because they like it and taking a stand would be more difficult. I cannot respect that. Your kids are learning that it's OK to exclude gays and atheists as long as they don't have to give up anything.

[greblc]

41. Your forgetting that my Pack has an openly Gay Principal. I think they

know he's a good guy and is an equal.I don't preach Anti Gay policy to my pack. I want our Gay Principal His Partner and his Children to Attend a pack meeting. I think could possibly difuse any notion that our pack is unwelcoming to Gay and lesbian Families. I would welcome any family to our Pack. I can't get Straight Parents to Volunteer ! I would accept a Parent Voulunteer of any Gay or Straight. In all honesty Scouting is alot of work and "taking a stand"
would be easy. It would save me a lot of head aches. If you have ever dealt with Parents and their Children you would know this is true.

And since when do you "have to sacrifice' to learn something?

[Dookus]

42. the principal, as far as I remember scouting

has no position whatsoever in the organization. He happens to be tangentially involved with the kids' lives.

As to "when do you have to sacrifice to learn something", my parents taught me a lot about that. We sacrificed a lot, and we learned a lot.

How exactly do you think your children will learn that bigotry is wrong when you sign them up for a bigoted organization? What are they taught when you're a part of it? They will learn that "discrimination is wrong" are mere words, with no call to action behind them.

[greblc]

47. Try this...

I don't intend to quit on principle. I need help to build and run my "Unbigoted Pack."

"Fuck Me" if you must but there are a group of children who depend on me for leadership.

If you have something "helpful" please post

[Dookus]

49. You're getting angry and defensive

and I suspect it's because you know I'm right on principle.

I haven't attacked you. I have tried to explain things to you.

I think it IS helpful to question people who perpetuate bigotry. Perhaps you'll think about what I'm saying instead of responding reflexively.

You can lead children in many ways, it doesn't require the BSA to do so. You can be a leader by showing them that the BSA is wrong in their policy, and that such bigotry should be opposed.

If you believe the policy is right, then there's nothing I can do to change your mind. But I think you believe the policy is wrong. In that case, you are simply making excuses and creating justifications for what you know in your heart is wrong.

If you want to present a spirited defense of anti-gay and anti-atheist bigotry, go ahead. But you can't expect much respect by telling everybody you KNOW the policy is wrong, yet go along with it anyway.

[greblc]

61. of course I agree with you on principle.

I'm not defending the policy. I'm not willing to fold A Cub Scout Pack of 40 Children on principle.
Some people who have participated in and understand Scouting will have respect for what I'm trying to achive.
It would be wonderful to live in a world where all choices could be made on principle.
Unfortunately there are people who do think that you can do that.
I.E. Those that will vote for Nader on "principle" could tip the Election to GWB.
This point alone illustrates the unsoundness of making judgements on "principle" alone.

Yes, I'm angry .Yes,I'm defensive. I get that way when I'm accused of being a Gay Bashing Nazi.

[Occulus]

51. Ok, look at it this way

Some people want to say homosexuality is wrong because their holy book says so. Leaving aside the related arguments that these positions are based in the Old Testament, which yet others say is superseded by the teachings of Christ, let's look at this from a logical perspective:

We're asking some people to make an exception to policies which disallow homosexuals from holding certain positions of leadership and authority, but you're asking us too keep a kid out of a social group, the only such regular social activity the kid has access to at the moment (if I am to believe his parent on that) based upon an ephemeral principle.

Do I have that right?

We need to be consistent with ourselves if we want to be accepted by others, and that includes allowing a child to be in Scouts if that's all that's available aside from wandering aimlessly with friends (which could easily be trouble depending on the age).

Yes, I know that's an exaggeration, but we're not talking about some moral code here, we're talking about a real, live kid. I take the compassion vote- let the kid be in Scouts if he wants.

(um, I'm gay. Thought you should know.)

[Dookus]

55. And I simply disagree

Your argument, like that of others here, is basically that it's OK for kids to belong to discriminatory organizations because there are some benefits to it.

There were benefits to being white under Apartheid, too, but that didn't make it right.

If the BSA didn't allow blacks or Jews, I imagine the views here would be different.

[greblc]

65. Your comparison villanizes Scouting.

Their not Nazi's they're Children.

You have taken this thread way off topic. I started it to solicit Ideas to help
change a Good Organization gone bad,due to poor policy decision.

[Occulus]

76. I would say it's only ok

if they're too young to comprehend your issues with the organization and there's nothing else to be had.

Would you really deprive a kid of needed social interaction just because you have objections to the moral positions of the organization the kid wants to join? Especially when the "other kids" are doing it?

We're not talking about a rightwing militia group or some wacko religious cult here, we're talking about Cub Scouts. This shouldn't even be an issue at that age.

[greblc]

79. the Cubs don't have any issues of the sort. So it's not really.

They just want have fun. It's us Adults who twist the simplicity out of everything.

[enigmatic]

96. I completely agree w/ you

And I'm straight.

[greblc]

63. Thank you.

for being supportive.

And Gay.

It is about the kids.

[Occulus]

75. You're welcome.

And the only thing that mitigates my outrage over the whole issue is that it ultimately is about the kids, not adults with hang-up about something kids this age shouldn't even be considering.

I especially feel that way when it's the only social activity the kid has available. Were it even a thirteen or fourteen year old, and perhaps (depending on their emotional and mental maturity) even younger, I would try to explain the issue and how I feel about it. However, I would also in this case presume I'd be in a position of guardianship to the child, and thus would have his best interest to consider.

Thus, the question becomes, "is it in the best interest of the child to participate in the only available social activity for people his age if I, as a parent, object to the moral positions of the organization in question?" Phrased that way, we adults look small and egocentric compared to the social desires of our children.

Look, I know what it's like to be ostracized as a child. I know what it means to not do the same things the other kids are doing, and even if it's NOT "all the other kids", if it's the ones on your street doing it and you are not, it gets talked about and you get branded, socially. That kind of treatment from my peers, at such an early age, simply because I happened to not like the activities the kids nearby liked, is the reason I tend to be something of a loner today.

If I never see another child going through the same things I did, I'll die in that respect a happy man.

[greblc]

80. Thanks Again.

This a touching post.

[greblc]

29. Walking away is easy...

It takes courage to fight for change.

I can't imagine it's easy to be a gay Republican.

What your saying has created the Polorization we are now living with.

You can't just say I'll go over here you go over there untill you see it my way.

Your right good people should stand up and refuse to be complicit with their hatred. This has a much stronger impact from within an organization.

If Dick Cheny spoke out for his Daugther Mary's rights would it have more impact if he resigned and became a Democrat First?

[Dookus]

31. Why should the BSA change their policy

if the only negative effect is that a few parents whisper quietly that they disagree with them?

Cripple the scouts. Make them unacceptable. Shame them. Expose them for the bigots they are. Teach your kids a real lesson. Then either find another organization, or take them camping on your own.

[greblc]

37. The problem isn't the Scouts it's the Leadership.

Scouting teaches Children many lessons. Not just a "real one'.

There are plenty of other organizations more worthy of unacceptance and shame.

I like scouting.

We do camp.

[Dookus]

38. and that proves my point

that bigotry is acceptable if you don't have to give up anything good.


The beneficiaries of apartheid liked the system, too. It suited them. It was still wrong.

[Arugula Latte]

69. My son wanted to join Cub Scouts,

but I didn't want to support intolerance and condone anti-gay sentiment. So, we started our own group. It's great. We do community service and fun outings. We stress environmental education and tolerance as well.

It's not hard to start a group with five or ten or fifteen like-minded families. E-mail makes organizing activities pretty simple.

[greblc]

74. I'd like to hear more.

It seems that its only a few of us who spendour time running things. It's like pulling teeth to get parents to help or even come to committee meetings.
I've thought at times it might work to do our own thing.

[Arugula Latte]

81. Here's what we did:

When my son came home enthused about joining the Scouts (they'd received a big pitch at school) I didn't want to just shoot down his enthusiasm. So I called about a dozen parents I thought might be interested in an alternative to Cub Scouts, and almost every single one of them wanted their child to be in the group. We had a meeting of the parents and talked about what we thought the group should be like. We decided to keep it fairly informal and to mix fun with environmental education and community service. We came up with several possible names for the group and let the boys choose the winner by vote.

We pick one activity per month. Generally, the person who comes up with the idea for the event is in charge of e-mailing people to inform them of the specifics (date, time, etc.) However, since we started the group, my husband tends to do a lot of the gatekeeping to make sure we're all "on the same page" as they say. It's not that much of a time commitment, though. For example, we'll send out an e-mail reminding everyone that next Saturday is the parade we're marching in and to meet at such-and-such a place at this time and to bring water, whatever. Then, anywhere from five to ten boys will show up with a parent and participate in the event. Every several months we have a meeting of the parents (sometimes at a local brew pub) to come up with ideas for the upcoming months.

We've done things ranging from ivy pulling in a local park (English Ivy is an invasive weed that's choking forests here in the Northwest) to "adopting" a family for the holidays (we got them clothes, gifts, food, etc.) to bowling to touring a historic farm to fruit picking to roller skating to going to a science museum.

We marched in a parade recently and the kids held a banner that said the name of the group ("Explorer Team") with the words Knowledge, Tolerance, Community, Environment written on it. Several parents came up and said they were interested in the group because they had misgivings about the Cub Scouts.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[CarolynEC]

3. Maybe the 'National Council' should stop using kids as pawns

in this sick agenda to attack gay and lesbian Americans.

The "what about the children?" plaintive wail just doesn't wash at all.

[greblc]

16. Agreed...

It's not an attack. It's Homophobia. They are afraid for their childrens Safety.
Way to many people confuse Homsexuals with Pedophiles. Every parent
wants to know their children are safe. Dangers exist everywhere parents
need to educate there children about Sexual Predators and how to avoid,deal with and escape situations.

[mitchtv]

4. get some feedback from the BSA in Petaluma

they seem to have something going. I'm afraid anything you could do would be to take a public stand, and that would probably get you bounced.

[murielm99]

5. My son is an Eagle Scout, but we both think that the Scouts

asked for it.

They are losing financial support and membership because of their bigotry.

It is not going to be easy for you, until they wake up.

The irony for us was that two gay people helped my son with his Eagle Scout project, and spoke at his court of honor. His gay sister and her partner attended as guests.

Complain to the national council, or live with what they have done to you.

[greblc]

9. We'll Not much about being a Cubmaster is easy.

It just stinks that the National Leadership has made it even harder.

Thanks for sharing your story. The GLC has a lot to offer in every community.
There are wonderful people everywhere if you look for them.

Your right about the financial support. I hope they wake up before they destroy Scouting.

[AlCzervik]

7. I'm a girlscout leader and we dont refuse anybody

you can be one to.

[greblc]

11. I know, the girls have got it right.

Do boys participate in your program?

Most Boys would have issues with calling themselves "Girl Scouts".

[AlCzervik]

20. They can if they want, it's in our charter that we cant refuse any child,

male or female. We've had younger brothers join us in meetings, no problems at all. Plus my troop kicks ass IMHO. I based my troop on doing community work and the girls love it, park cleanups with the daisy's, doing toy drives and learning how to take care of yourself..ie how to change a flat, how to change your oil and so on.

[Luminous Animal]

10. Scouting for All

Try this website: http://www.scoutingforall.org/

The FAQs might address some of your issues.

[greblc]

12. Thanks

I have visited this site.

[Luminous Animal]

13. RE: Thanks

Maybe the principal should check it out. It might make him more comfortable and receptive to you if he realizes that there are real live scouts trying to change the organization.

[mitchtv]

52. I hope not

the principal should remain steadfast and keep the scouts as far away from the school system as possible. He must be quite brave. The BSA must be driven out of all areas of tax supported life until they relent.

[Gore1FL]

102. The have relented on the local level

National does not have the resources to enforce their rules. No ne talks about it. Gay sex is not a typical point of discussion for Cub and Scout meetings. For that matter, neither is religion.

By kicking out troops and packs, you don't hurt natinal, you hurt troops and packs, who likely fit the description I mentioned.

The easiest way to win the fight is to simply ignore the policies at the troop level. The real teachings of Boy Scouts are what are taught to the kids.

[greblc]

103. Grade Schoolers relent?

Sounds like your defending against the Huns.

[lpricanprynces]

14. Other organizations?

Aren't there other organizations similar to the scouts without all the bigoted rules?

[greblc]

21. Most similar groups involve some Religious Ideolgy.

[Dookus]

46. but not all of them do

You should try harder. I'm not quite willing for yet another generation believe anti-gay bigotry is acceptable.

[greblc]

48. Good night Dookus

[Dookus]

50. Giving up?

and pretending that somehow I'm being unreasonable?

I'm being very reasonable. You're just pushed into a corner. You KNOW the policy is wrong, but you implicitly support it. Why even START this thread if you didn't want a discussion on it?

You are supporting bigotry. You are teaching your children that bigotry is OK. As a cubmaster, you are teaching OTHER children that bigotry is OK. You're demonstrating that horrible policies are acceptable.

You know it's wrong. That's why you started this thread. To pretend that I'm in the wrong here is silly. You know what I'm saying is right, and that's why it disturbs you so much.

If one of your kids should be gay, I hope he or she explains it to you some day.

[greblc]

62. I didn't give up It was 3 am.

You are unreasonable. You are assuming you know me, my community,my pack and it's members.

You seem to have some axe to grind and I think you've got the wrong guy.
I started this thread to solicit help. You have Illustrated to me that people can be angry at a group of children trying have fun and better themselves.

Angry to the point of throwing the baby out with the bath water, on "Principle".

Your hatred of the BSA and missunderstanding of Scouting sadens me.

My wife and i have disscussed the what ifs of having a Gay child or children.
The only dissapointment we agreed on is that of having Biological Grandchildren and that we would get over.

[JSJ]

15. the scouts is a quasi-military organization that rejects gay people...

...so fuck 'em. Another Hitler-youth wannabe group.

[greblc]

19. Nice....

I was waiting for that response.

Hate breeds Hate. It''s what I'm strugling against.

Fuck the children...?

Go away smart one.

[JSJ]

27. hey word-twister, i said fuck 'em, not 'fuck the children'

The kids in scouting are, after all, too young to know they're being indoctrinated. The leaders, on the other hand, should know better. That is who I was refering to when I said fuck 'em. There's so little to recommend when talking about the BSA, that any self-respecting liberal should steer clear of it. And isn't christianity still their official religion?

[greblc]

32. No a scout can be "Reverant "in any religion

Leaders ,Children the program is inclusive. You said fuck the children.

Save the explatives when posting about a Childrens Organization.

[Dookus]

33. he did not say fuck the children.

he said "fuck 'em" clearly referring to the BSA. Not the kids, the leaders.

[greblc]

39. He said "fuck em" referring to "the scouts"

Scouts are Children. Even still Children are a Part of the BSA Leadership in some capacity.

[Dookus]

40. sorry, that's a stretch

he said, and i agree, "fuck 'em" to the organization, not the kids. The leaders are responsible for their bigoted policies, not the kids.

Fuck the BSA. I hope the kids involved eventually learn that bigotry is wrong. Alas, it will take a lot longer when their parents support it.

[greblc]

43. The Kids are part of the organization!!!! so fuck Em'

By trashing a program that benifits kids aren't you in a sense saying Fuck em'

Why can't you just say Fuck BSA Policy on Gays.

The whole program is shit because of one policy.

I am truly sorry you feel that way.

I dissagree.

[JSJ]

44. using the kids for cover- for shame n/t

[Dookus]

45. because the policy

is heinous. Why oppose the old government of South Africa? It was only one policy that was wrong.

You know the policy is wrong. We agree on that. You just won't do anything about it. You'll support it implicitly by being a part of it, and you'll teach your kids that such policies aren't something to be terribly concerned about.

And when Democrats do that, it just postpones for a few more years the eventual victory against such noxious discrimination. But at least your kids will know how to tie knots.

[mitchtv]

53. How succinct ;a little more blunt than I

but on the mark

[Gore1FL]

94. Well not quite

If you would like to learn more about Scouting, please read abook on theh Founder -- Lord Robert Baden Powell.

Not only does he specificially state that Scouting is NOT a military organization, but also you will find one of his interested was female impersonation!

Seriously, don't defame a worthy organization you obviously know nothing about over the decisions of a couple of Right Wing Nuts who felt it necessary to interject politics into an otherwise fine and useful organization.

[Dookus]

17. I'm sorry

but the only way the BSA will change their ridiculous policy is if good people stand up and refuse to be a part of it.

There are other organizations for children that don't discriminate. I honestly believe letting boys be scouts today sends the message that anti-gay discrimination is perfectly acceptable.

[greblc]

24. I have thought about bailing...

My Childrens Pricipal is Gay. I talk openly (age appropriate) about Reproduction and Sexuality with my Children. There are several gay households on my block. My Children and My Scouts know Gay and Lesbian
Families.

I feel that it's a non issue in my Pack. If it were I would Resign with out hesitation.

My reasoning is it's the National Leaderships Issue. That's why I would like to
Include our School Principal in our activities.

There are other Organizations. I like the Cubscout Program and it's History.
I don't agree with this one issue. The ruling does offer an opportunity to change something that is unjust. That is a lesson that scouts could take from this. Some have done this by challenging the National Council in Court.

Refusing to be a part of Scouting would just make it go away. Alot of good has come from Scouting.

Our Man John Kerry was a Cub Scout.

[Dookus]

25. I know

I've heard all the arguments in favor of scouting.

I don't deny kids enjoy it. I don't deny it teaches some useful things to kids.

But to me, that just teaches kids that opposing bigotry doesn't have to be done if anything good is at stake.

[The_Casual_Observer]

28. Try communication one on one with the Principal

and try to iron it out as reasonable adults. If you can't, then it would be best to find another meeting place and save your energy to put on a good program.

[Andy_Stephenson]

36. Sorry...

But Scouting for all would be a better choice IMHO.

http://www.scoutingforall.org/

[eridani]

54. Beat me to it

That group kicks butt!

[JerseygirlCT]

56. Sorry, but until BSA changes it's horrid policy on gays, then -m

you're aiding and abetting those policies by being involved.

And I'm sorry for the kids, but maybe it's time to find/found a new organization that doesn't discriminate for the kids.

We had a similar situation at our church recently. The program had used our space for years, and now wanted to expand. We told them no because we could no longer support the BSA's discrimination. The leader fired back an angry letter about how we were politicizing things. Well, hell, BSA politicized things when they chose to maintain their horrible policy.

Sorry, but change them or get out... and take the poor kids with you before more are indoctrinated!

[greblc]

66. Maybe so but I think I will have more success...

towards change from within than if I quit.

The kids don't get indoctrinated.

I think most of the hard feelings are misplaced. It's the National Leadership that holds this policy.
The former Cubmaster had written letters of objection to the policy.

There is little if any inforcement. I could have Gay Parent Leaders . I'd gladly take them. Most Parent are "too busy" to help.

We have a Church in our community that considered the same thing.

Scouting is aTime Honored organization it's sad that communities have to make these choices.

Sorry, I don't plan to get out. I will refuse to enforce or abide by the Anti-Gay Policies of the National Council.

[Bob Hannah]

110. HomoPhobes in Scouting.

this is a tough one. When I was in California my son's scoutmaster
was a pedophile. Luckily one of the kids he tried to "befriend" figured it out and hit him in the jewels with a branch. Then he was found out . They found his home computer full of kiddie porn and he ended up getting 8-12 in the can.

[LWolf]

58. There are a couple of ways:

You could join a different youth program that isn't known for discrimination:

Boys and Girls Clubs of America http://www.bgca.org/

Campfire Boys and Girls http://www.campfire.org/start.asp

4-H http://www.fourhcouncil.edu/

Spiral Scouts http://www.spiralscouts.org/

Star Scouting America http://www.starscoutingamerica.org/

There are probably more out there.

Or, if you feel you must stay with the BSA, you could work with Scouting For All to change the policies and attitudes of the BSA:

http://www.scoutingforall.org/

It is about the kids; and one of the things we want to make sure we do for kids is let them know that discrimination is not ok in any form, in any organization. That we always have a choice.

[greblc]

67. Thanks,

I will look at these.

[truthspeaker]

59. Quit BSA and move the whole pack over to Campfire Boys & Girls

They have a non-discrimination policy.

I understand you are in this to help kids, but the BSA is not the only scouting organization. You do have a choice.

[greblc]

68. I'll honestly look into it.

Our Pack Meetings are 1/3 sisters. A Co-ed program may better suit our
members.

[Quahog]

60. I was a Cub Scout den leader

I saw my son all the way through Webelos. He crossed over to Boy Scouts, and I signed up to be an adult volunteer with huge reservations about the whole enterprise. He lost interest though after a couple of meetings. He was forced to sit outside the door of one of the meetings because when he showed up, the brass end of his belt was more than 1/2" from the edge of his belt buckle.

I saw a lot of what I would consider social promotion through the ranks of Cub Scouts, and did some of this myself with the boys in my den, since it seemed to the the modus operandi of the pack. When I told the Scout Master that my son was opting out because he only wanted to go camping and didn't really want to do the work for advancement, he told me "don't worry about that stuff, we'll see to it that he advances." So I figure the same principles were operating in the troop. The main difference I could see was that Cubs really was a lot of goofy fun, while the Boy Scout troop seems to be bending over backwards to act like a paramilitary organization, complete with marching practice, standing at attention, and bizarre and humiliating punishments for anyone who commits even the most minor infraction against the rules. I have a real problem with that, and coupled with my disdain for the policies of the BSA leadership, it wasn't difficult to make the decision to leave.

There's another aspect to scouting that's always bothered me, but this is probably more of a prejudice of my own than anything else. But it seems that a lot of the guys who stick with scouts are sort of misfits in other areas of life. This was true when I was in school, it was the guys who didn't do sports and weren't involved in other extracurricular activities who lived the whole scouting life. I know that when I took my son to the first few BS meetings, and I saw the older boys who were supposed to be leading him, I was not thrilled. They seemed like a bunch of geeks to me, really. I compare this group with the same age kids who are in my church choir, kids who are bright and mature and considerate of others, who are involved in a bazillion different projects and activities, many of them also holding down part-time jobs, politicially active, etc. The scout kids seemed to be totally focused on patches and badges (and the correct alignment of same), and not much else.

I'm not implying that this is true of all scouting groups, and I'm sure it's not true of the groups led by those of you at DU who are conscientious leaders. But I was just a happy to be parting company with the group in my community.

[greblc]

71. Wow!

I agree with your observations.

I do enjoy Cubs because it's kids having"Goofy Fun" and not to serious.
I think People outside of Scouting see Cubs and Scouts as the same.
It is very different. Most Cub Meetings resemble a Large birthday party more than any Military function. I like it that way.

Our Scoutmaster has the idea that I will take his place. I made a decision that
I would stop leading once we're out of Cubs. I was in the Marine Corps and I do see Troops that try a little to hard to drive that type of program. Boy Scouts are geeks. I've noticed it even in the leadership. My thought is that every kid(and Adult) needs someplace to fit in. If my kids are geeks advancment to scouting may work for them. But not in a Troop like you described.

[David Zephyr]

64. I Have Spoken To City Councils To Divert Funding Away From Scouts

to other meritous youth groups. Everytime the funding went elsewhere.

The Scouts have gone to great, great trouble spending a fortune of its donations and compromising its reputation by legally demanding to the Supreme Court of the United States that it was a PRIVATE, not public, organization and THEREFORE COULD CHOOSE TO DISCRIMINATE against homosexuals.

So, I intend to make sure that the Scouts keep their sacred word (that's a Scout thing, right?) and make sure that they NEVER break faith with the Supreme Court by taking PUBLIC monies which include the tax contributions from gay and lesbian American citizens.

[greblc]

72. I see your point. It's too bad it has come to this.

It hurts, but do what you think is right.

[noamnety]

70. the grocery store thing

I never thought to complain about the boy scouts having a table at the grocery store. That's an interesting tactic.

[greblc]

73. Be warned, I think it's put a stop to all store front solicitations...

at this store. You may hurt those you don't intend too.

[Occulus]

77. about the sidewalk

Does the store own that property, or the city?

[greblc]

78. I think you could legaly set up on the sidewalk but...

The City probably requires a permit

[Xithras]

82. As a bi den leader and (possible) soon to be Cubmaster

All I can do is tell you to stick with it, and remind the principal that the national council has very little effect on the operations of the end packs or dens. Maybe it's just because I'm in "liberal" California, or maybe it's because our pack has always placed a special emphasis on diversity, service to community, and environmentalism, but we have NEVER had any problems with either of the two schools we draw from. In all the time I've been involved with the scouts, I've only once met someone who really opposed our involvement with the schools, and that person was FLOORED when they found out thhat I'm bi...and accepted, that more than 2/3rds of the administrative positions in our pack are held by women, and that over half of our kids are minorities.

I really wish the anti-scouting activists would realize that the opinions of the BIGOTS in the national council have absolutely NOTHING to do with the operation of the packs. Our operation is directed by the parents, families, and pack volunteers who help us out every day, and bigotry is not tolerated.

[greblc]

86. Thanks!

For your supportive post.:)

[Truth is True]

83. Increase positive visibility through good acts?

Does the grocery store have a significant number of elderly who walk their groceries home? Perhaps you could have scouts nearby to assist.

Try to think of some sort of things to do that would benefit the school, like fundraising for something the school needs, and donating it in the name of the cub pack. (New projector, computer, new encyclopedias for library, etc.)

Maybe there are aids patients in the community who could use some yardwork.

Kill them with kindness and compassion, and be visible doing it.

[greblc]

87. Thanks!

[MissB]

84. Until the national group changes their ways

I don't see how you can get the cooperation from the principal.

My sons are not going to be in scouts, because the scouts discriminate against gays/lesbians and atheists. I cannot in good conscience allow them to take part in a group that allows such descrimination. It doesn't bother me at all that many of his classmates will be in scouts (and believe me- we have very small classes so it is almost as if every boy in their classes except my sons will particpate).

Try campfire or scouting for all. I'm sure you'd get wayyyyy more cooperation from the principal.

[greblc]

88. Thanks!

I respect your decision.

[markus]

85. I'm sorry, It is a hate group.

If you want to have a Scouting like experience, start your own group. Or something like Campfire (which is no co-ed I believe).

[greblc]

90. I disagree.

.

[Gore1FL]

98. It is more of a group headed by haters

than a hate group.

[K-W]

89. Stay out of the schools!!!!!

Your organization is both descriminatory and religious. You have no right to use publically funded schools to recruit or destribute information.

[greblc]

91. A Scout is Reverant....

in any religion. Not just Christianity. "A Scout must have an awareness of a Higher Power"

My Assistant Cub master is a Native American. I haven't discussed his religion.

Our Council had to fight for it but , legally we do have a right to distribute information.

My sons are students at this school and I have a right to discuss any topic with other parents while at school. Incuding Scouting.

Your welcome to Join Our Pack . Race, religion and even if your
Gay or Lesbian. It makes no difference to me or the Cubs.

The National Council may have a problem with it, but who would know?

[Gore1FL]

97. Interestnigly

Reverent was not an roiginal Baden-Powell law. He did mention in "Scouting for Boys" that scouting had a "religion" to it -- in the sense of the orignal ten laws. (he left out clean too -- but stressed it;s imprtance as well)

It is interesting to read the writings of the founder, because what many of the laws are interpreted as now, are varied from what he originally wrote.

[K-W]

108. Yah, im sure by the word God they clearly mean any higher power.

and I suppose the non-religious can just go screw themsleves huh?

[greblc]

112. Sorry but...

Don't hate me... Yes. The National Council has issue with Atheists as well.

[SidDithers]

92. Affiliate with Scouts Canada instead...

This thread made me check the Scouts Canada policies, I've got a 4 year old who might be interested, but I wouldn't enroll him if Scouts Canada discriminated in the same way as the BSA. I'm happy with what I found.

"Scouting is a world wide, multi cultural movement. We welcome people to membership regardless of gender, race, culture, religious belief, sexual orientation or economic circumstances. Youth members are strongly influenced by the behaviour of adults. We need to be sensitive to the traditions and beliefs of all people and to avoid words or actions which "put down" anybody." From Scouts Canada. Duty of Care, February 2001, CODE OF CONDUCT FOR ADULTS

http://www.scouts.ca/media/documents/dutyofcare.pdf

Sid

[greblc]

100. Can American Scouts Join Boy Scouts of Canada?

Scouting is world wide. It would be quite scathing to the BSA if an American
Scout Troop/Pack were to Charter in another Country due to the BSA's Discriminatory policies.

[Gore1FL]

93. I am an Asst Scoutmaster

Inform him that the true goal s of scouting are different from what national puts out. Additionally, outside the US, there are Boyscout organizations that do allow gays and athiests. The true "traditional values" of Boy scouts can be found in the oaths and laws.

Finally, I suggest www.scoutingforall.org

They have long term goals, but short term suggestions for BSA to overcome National's violation of the laws it espouses.

[greblc]

101. Thanks...

for the constuctive posts.

[Cronus Protagonist]

99. Start a Gay Cub Scout Pack - that will get his attention

And will reinforce your commitment to fighting against the establishment's bigotry against gay people.

You'll be sure to get his support that way. Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

Lick Laura's Bush - Drop Bush Not Bombs! - FUCK BUSH
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[I_Hug_Trees]

104. There is no reason why scouts can't be gay

I just don't get the mind set of people. It is a public organization and should be allowed the same rights for everybody. When I was in the girl scouts, I had to keep my identity a secret. My mom would have killed me I had been kicked out for who I was. I really liked being with all the other girls and had fun with them so i didn't mind though.

God I hate some people sometimes.

[greblc]

105. True

[leesa]

106. You need to kick ass within the Boy Scout leadership

Did you complain when they made Ollie North a spokesperson. Do you complain about their sick policies towards gay people?

Don't blame people for not supporting a group led by bigots.

[greblc]

111. I'm trying.

[kayell]

107. Get your kids involved in another organization

that provides them opportunities, but does not have such bigoted practices. It will be better for the kids too. Remember that 10% of your cubs may be gay, and will likely discover that while they are boy scouts. Is that REALLY what you want for them?

4-H clubs and Boys & Girls Clubs of America are good choices. Get involved in starting one of them in your community.

Edit: took out the snarky lines. Sorry, but the scouts really toast me.

[greblc]

113. Thanks

[noamnety]

109. even if your local group doesn't discriminate

Aren't there dues that go to support the national agenda, which discriminates? To me, that would make it inappropriate in a school, no matter how good your local group is - it's still fundraising for an anti-gay, anti-atheist organization.

That doesn't mean you or your kids can't take part in it, it justs means ethically you shouldn't be doing it in a public school, even if you really really want to.

[greblc]

114. Your right.

I don't know how the BSA does it.