What is the DU take on Pacifism?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

Poll question: What is the DU take on Pacifism?

I am interested in the ovwrall feeling here

[lazarus]

1. I will fight for my right to be a pacifist

:evilgrin:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. I Heed Malcom X's Axiom

I will treat people with respect but if anybody tries to harm me or anybody I hold dear I reserve the right to respond by "any means necessary."

[LiberalVoice]

2. Not just self defense.

I won't stand there and have someone threaten me and not do anything about it. If you threaten me I will whoop your ass. Some people need ot be taught a lesson in respect.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. Ghandi

drove the big bad brits out of India... without a shot being fired... top that.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

6. And then there's MLK!

[LiberalVoice]

7. I couldn't top it...

I will say this about myself though. It really does take alot to get me to hit someone. I guess I jumped the gun on the whole threatening me thing but it is really hard to bring me to violence.

p.s. This excludes verbal abuse. :P

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. As Far As Conquerors The Brits Were "Softies"....

Non violent resistance has an honorable tradition when it is used against an elite with a sense of conscience and moral responsibility...



It wouldn't have worked against Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, or Hitler....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

9. How do you know that?

:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. The Whole Point Of Passive Resistance

was to appeal to the conscience of the elite...


Do you really think Hitler would have closed the death camps if a couple of thousand Jews assembled peacefully to protest their being slaughtered....

Please, Dear Fuhrer, would you stop killing us?

The mere premise is absurd....


That you can prevent someone who is intent on destroying you by appealing to his conscience......

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

18. Some would die rather than commit violence

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. What Does A Buddhist Monk Immolating Himself To Protest The Viet Nam War

have to do with the efficacy of passive resistance as a tool against genocidal maniacs?


The Jews, gays, communists, and gypsies of WW 2 Europe didn't have to immolate themselves... The Nazis did it for them...


Passive resistance is a proud and honorable tradition and would work IMHO in Iraq and the West Bank and Gaza but it is not universally applicable....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

21. you're right - I was just using the image as an example of what some

people will endure for what they believe in

listen, i'm not disagreeing with you

Passive resistance would not have stopped alot of the atrocities that have happened or will.

I'm just trying to get you to talk more - I like this discussion.

Sorry if my tactics are poor :)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. It Would Work In Iraq And The West Bank And Gaza...

I think the Arab world abhors passive resistance because they believe it shows weakness...


That was Malcom X's critque of passive resistance...


He mocked Dr. King for putting little girls in harm way to advance a political and moral agenda...

Actually Dr. King went over the heads of most of the local elities to appeal to the national elites in Washington...

Of course some local southern elites quickly figured out the protests were bad for "bizness"....


It worked for King and Gandhi because the American and British elites didn't have the stomach to harm civilians peacefully protesting....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

27. I've always admired Brother Malcolm

And I feel that he had the best plan

[JohnKleeb]

31. I gotta agree with you there

Hell if I were a Jew or whatever in occupied europe, I would have joined the reistance as my relatives did. Ive opposed most of the wars since WWII though.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. It wouldn't have worked against Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, or Hitler....

Hence.... the Iraqis aren't using it..... curious. I wonder if it would... if they did.... sure would be a whole lot less messy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I Think It Would Work For The Iraqis And The Palestinians... (nt)

[Darranar]

30. Not sure about that...

The US doesn't seem to care much about killing Iraqi civilians, and Israel has repeatedly attacked peaceful demonstraters.

[rman]

15. so when you percieve a threat, you become agressive,

kind of like how the Bush administration felt threatened by Iraq, and then invaded it under the pretence of pre-emptive strike.

And who are you to know who "needs to be thought a lesson in respect", and who doesn't?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. That's Not What He Said...

He is saying if someone physically gets in his face he'll put a can of whoop ass on him...


That's different than the Iraqi invasion.....

[rman]

23. "physically gets in his face"

is that like when someone takes a swing at you, or draws a gun?

He did in fact say "someone threaten me", he did not refer to anything physical. Sounds more like he's refering to threatening language and/or agressive posturing.

Would an appropriate response to someone "physically getting in your face" be "teaching a lesson in respect", or would it just be plain old self-defense?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Agressive Posturing...

If someone is about to hit me can I hit him first?


That is the true premise of preemptive war......


I'm not going to defend the "teaching a lesson in repect" remark but I can see a situation where I could teach a freeper a lesson in respect....

[LiberalVoice]

26. How about this..

I was in a Co Go's (7-11 type store) last night and some drunk guy was harassing two of the employees because they were speaking in a different language. He kept going on and on about how here in america you don't speak your "cray language". after waiting in line behind him listening to him talk I finally tapped him on the shoulder and kindly asked him to "pick up his cigarettes and fuck off." Anyway as I'm leaving the store he comes up to me and starts yelling about how he's going to kick my ass and screaming a few things about me being a jew. Not putting it so nicely I might add. btw, I am not jewish but am of arab decent.

Now obviously me hitting him wasn't the best way to get my point across. But, I couldn't exactly invite him to an inteligent deabte and he wouldn't let me get in my car or go back into the store. I didn't see that I had another choice. While he didn't attempt to hit me first he did leave me with no other option but to hit him.

Btw, I think it's pretty ridiculous that people are trying to rope me in with Bush and Co. for saying that I would hit someone before they hit me. It's bullshit.

A war or pre-emptive strike conssit of alot more then a guy waking up with a black eye in the morning and I think its pretty disgusting that some people would try and make it seem otherwise.

[LiberalVoice]

28. First off...

The Bush administration didn't see Iraq as a threat. They saw it as a way to fatten their wallets. There is absolutly nothing similar to what I posted and what is happening in Iraq.

[JaySherman]

5. Hmm... Depends...

I hate war and deplore killing. Don't even like watching war movies. I'm against the death penalty, and believe abortion should be a woman's choice. Yet I just can't suppress the urge to beat the living shit out of some people, and have been known in the (not so distant) past to succomb to that primal urge. You tell me what that makes me :shrug:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

11. You tell me what that makes me

Only human with higher aspirations.... like almost everyone else.... nothing wrong with that. If it is a chronic type A personality one is dealing with.. short fuse... temper... unprovoked anger... there is much that can be done about that.... and it doesn't involve "talk".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Human (nt)

[Aidoneus]

12. Within certain contexts,

a dangerous handicap at best, a crippling suicide at worst (in actual practice, that is, not in the safe and comfortable realm of theory).

[jonnyblitz]

16. direct action is the way to go. n/t

[Darranar]

24. I am not a pacifist, but opposed to the vast majority of wars...

The only wars I could support are ones for self-defense (REAL self-defense, meaning after an invasion or when an invasion is imminent) or humanitarian interventions, and both should be conducted with regard to international law. The latter should only come after all peaceful measures have been exhausted, or when the matter is far too urgent to wait for them to be, and should be done with as much precision and care as possible.

[Jack_DeLeon]

29. I am not a pacifist.

Sometimes violence is the answer. ;)